VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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vijayk
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by vijayk »

Pratyush wrote:The only deal that is politically safe to conclude is a deal for additional MK1A.

Every other deal has same political risks.

Maybe, just maybe, deals with the US will not be attacked due to fear of Khan reprisals by the opposition Pappu.
Nope. They delinked those 2 wings. Arms Lobby keeps up its pressure and funds all politicians in US. The Jihadi/Soros lobby also pursues its independent policy using progressive/jihadi/Nazi lobby. They all in the end have an understanding. They know even though they speak with forked tongue, arms lobby will get its wishes fulfilled. All they have to do is Putin/Russia and all will follow them
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

French tech is usually right engineered, i.e. not over engineered like German stuff can be or excess engineered (as in too many "nice to have/coz no one else can") bleeding edge features like US stuff. Since French economy is smaller and less dynamic but stable, expensive equipment goes through several rounds of review and validation from specs to design to prototype, test, validation and production. Since production runs are modest compared to US or Russian numbers, break even has to be fairly quick to enable profits to come in early and fund the next cycle of innovation.

So the industrial & innovation mindset is like that of a "middle middle class" - most things are thoughtfully, intelligently designed without too much risk by highly competent and brainy people, as attached to the process as they are to the product, with an occasional quirk, built with good quality to last long enough to pass on to next gen.

You'll see this - at least I do - in a Renault or Citroen car, Mirage 2000 and Rafale.

HOWEVER, with Rafale, Dassault is getting orders beyond their wildest imagination. I think they've already recouped their R&D and production investment and made their expected profit. For them to focus on SCAF, they need to be able to refocus on developing the next mega cycle of innovations that need to leverage a wide set of fundamental research, concepts, materials, AI and so on. So hiving off MRO to India to support all the ME and Asian customers, setting up a mfg line in India and create a good local supplier ecosystem is the way to go. This should make the Rafale a lot more affordable to India while still bringing in good profits.

STEM enrolment in France is barely holding on. Technical trades are losing favour with post millennials. India+ model for at least part of R&D, a good bit of production and most of the MRO & spares supply is the future. Its a no brainer actually.

But the French are haughty, clever and ferocious negotiators, they hate to cheap sell their wares. But a Rafale is not a LV handbag, its a necessity not a vanity. India has to be patient, tenacious and shameless in getting the deal it wants, and the way to do it is to make the French cost it not based on existing cost structure but based on a different industrial and business model of the future - that they need to see, imagine, flesh out, validate and hang their chemise on. It may take time, but believe it can be done, and it will be a win-win for France and India in the near and long term.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

What a great post Cyrano-ji. +108 to you Saar! Very lucidly explained.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Thanks Rakesh ji.

To add to the above, India making this a non-RFP, govt to govt deal is a good move. It makes the French govt also negotiate internally on India's behalf with Dassault and others like Safran, Thales etc, in which the French govt owns a chunk of shares. This has its +s and -s. The current French govt has too many dilettante ministers who may come from elite schools and corporate backgrounds, but lack deep technical and industrial understanding. The relationship between Dassault and French govt is often a bit frictional. Dassault family rightly remains fiercely independent. Dassault is sometimes mistrustful of the Govt's promises - while ministers and presidents come and go, industrial investments and strategic decisions have impact over several decades. You only have to see how the govt botches stuff with harebrained dreams of European cooperation for SCAF and other programs - contradicting each other in press statements. They have their constraints and messes, we have ours !

PS: I'm saying all this based on my general knowledge, I have no insider information from either side ;)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Stumbled on this, not sure if this was posted before. Undated, but nice visuals and summary by Cdr Jayakrishnan N Nair (Retd).

"https://www.cppr.in/wp-content/uploads/ ... rt-III.pdf"

Please copy paste into browser without quotation marks to get the pdf.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Having a common fighter aircraft for Navy & the Air Force helps: French Naval Captain

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote:
Kartik wrote:Just keep one data point in mind - for the Colombian Kfir replacement, it was revealed that the Rafale was CHEAPER than the F-16V! In all of the deals signed for the F-16V, the price has been eye wateringly high for a single engine fighter. Given the USD to INR and Euro to INR exchange rate, the Rafale is now a lot more affordable than it was during the original 126 MRCA contest, versus American fighters.

Article link
Whoa! I just learned something new :) Thanks Kartik.

I guess I was looking at this simplistically. I always thought the Rafale (being twin engined) would be more expensive to operate than the F-16. Perhaps I am living too much under Comrade Putin's influence and have read only about the twin engined Russian fighters in IAF service (MiG-29 and Su-30MKI). They are more expensive to operate than their single engined counterparts (i.e. Mirage 2000). The F-15EX I believe also has a very high OPEX.
The Rafale was cheaper to operate than the Kfir simply because the Kfir is now so old that it'll require heavy maintenance, that too with spares and parts barely available anywhere now.

Cmde Mao in his latest Hushkit article talks about this ageing related maintenance factor in relation to the Sea Harrier. Hardly any issues in it's first decade of service and then once the fleet began to age, the true maintenance headaches started, especially due to the way the massive Pegasus engine was located versus a whole range of avionics and parts. Imagine having to take the wings (due to electrical wiring running through it) as well as engine out to replace some damn part buried deep in the aft fuselage. No wonder the IN retired it even after having spent on LUSH not that long before.

Rafales will certainly not be cheaper to operate than the F-16. But acquisition cost is another issue. Lockheed is truly price gouging it's customers by selling an upgraded F-16 Block 70 at almost similar price point as the F-35.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Bharat Electronics signs frame supply agreement with Thales Reliance Defence Systems, Nagpur
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 988_1.html
28 Feb 2023
As part of the Offset commitment under the Rafael-India Contract and in line with the 'Make in India' policy, BEL and TRDS have entered into an agreement for the manufacture and supply of TR Modules and Micro modules of Radar used in Rafale fighter aircraft.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

French AdeAS gets its first Rafale F4.1

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -aircraft/
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

One of the reasons why the IAF loves the Rafale. With the recent BDL-MBDA collaboration, waiting for Astra Mk2 and SFDR :)

https://twitter.com/defencegreece_m/sta ... 33793?s=20 ---> HAF air force released technical specs of Meteor BVR missile that equips the Rafale squadron. Range 200 km and speed > 4 Mach! Impressive stats to say the least!

https://twitter.com/defencegreece_m/sta ... 44800?s=20 ---> To have a comparison with current inventory on both sides of the Aegean, max range of Meteor is 2.5 bigger than the AMRAAM's. Even if real engagement range is smaller for both types of missiles, it seems that Meteor gives the distinctive advantage.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by JTull »

Likely specs for export variant only. Astra MK3 is rumoured to surpass these specs.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 56419?s=20 ---> 2022 was a historic year for order intake (EUR 21.0 billion & 156 aircraft – 92 Rafale Export + 64 Falcon). Backlog is largest in Group’s history: EUR 35.0 billion (251 aircraft: 125 Rafale Export, 39 Rafale France & 87 Falcon).

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 95298?s=20 ---> Dassault: In the continuity of the elapsed year, our objectives for 2023 are amongst others:

1. secure the French Tranche 5 order of 42 Aircraft
2. Make in India: to continue ramping up the activities transferred to India
3. FCAS/NGF: to launch phase 1B of the demonstrator

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Le Duc is flying again ?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Two year old video, but will give the viewer an insight the advantage the Rafale has in the present MRFA contest.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

oh Wow! If this comes through, then it's massive for the IN, and a massive slap in the face for the IAF and it's MRFA circus that is cursed to never end.

CCS likely to seal Rafale M deal today
NEW DELHI: The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi is likely to clear the multi-billion dollar acquisition of 26 Rafale Marine fighters at its meeting on Wednesday.

Sources said that the Indian Navy has expressed its preference for the French fighter aircraft Rafale Marine over US’ F-18 Super Hornet. A proposal for the purchase of Rafale Marine has been sent to the CCS.

The Indian Air Force has already acquired 36 Rafale fighters. The commonality of the fleet and the resultant savings on training, repairs and maintenance have reportedly tilted the scale in favour of Dassault’s Rafale Marine. The two versions of the aircraft have over 80 per cent common features.

These aircraft will be deployed on India’s indigenously developed aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. According to sources, the Ministry of Defence has worked out a comprehensive contract, including Performance-based Logistics, which will ensure that the Original Equipment Manufacturer will be responsible for the overall maintenance of the aircraft and the supply of spares. Dassault will also build a maintenance facility for the Rafales on INS Vikrant, besides one in Goa. The company will train the naval aviation ground crew, besides training the pilots.

The fighters will be fully loaded with all maritime systems, including the maritime search radar that is capable of detecting submarines and warships in the sea. The price of the aircraft has not been revealed yet, but sources said it will be considerably lower than the IAF version. The government has decided to make the acquisition through an inter-governmental agreement rather than going in for an open tender.

....
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Wow indeed. Macron was supposed to visit India this month. He would jump with joy to gey away from the protests in France and bring home a victory ie export contract. Few more days left in March so let's see...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Kartik wrote:oh Wow! If this comes through, then it's massive for the IN, and a massive slap in the face for the IAF and it's MRFA circus that is cursed to never end.
MRCBF has to be one of the most weirdest acquisitions ever.

To date, there has not been a single official statement from the PMO, the MoD or even the Indian Navy over the choice of the MRCBF. The media is running the show. They are making the announcement and they are claiming that the CCS will give sanction and that too today. Truly weird.

After CCS clearance and contract signing, I will start a new thread - an IAF and IN Rafale dhaaga.
Kartik wrote:CCS likely to seal Rafale M deal today

Dassault will also build a maintenance facility for the Rafales on INS Vikrant, besides one in Goa. The company will train the naval aviation ground crew, besides training the pilots.

The fighters will be fully loaded with all maritime systems, including the maritime search radar that is capable of detecting submarines and warships in the sea. The price of the aircraft has not been revealed yet, but sources said it will be considerably lower than the IAF version. The government has decided to make the acquisition through an inter-governmental agreement rather than going in for an open tender.
Having a maintenance facility aboard INS Vikrant will be an excellent move. The CDG has some sort of engine testing/maintenance facility on board for the M88 turbofans. Let me see if I can find the article. I hope it can be replicated aboard INS Vikrant.

The maritime search radar aboard the Rafale M detects submarines? :D

The author (Shahid Faridi) of the news piece has got a vivid imagination.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

I found the article (Air International, June 2019 edition). I am paraphrasing from the article, to avoid copyright violations.

* The Charles De Gaulle has three engine inspection bays on board. Located at the rear of the aircraft carrier. The third one was set up, when she had undergone her most recent mid-life refit.
* The engine room has 25 specialists, out of which 21 are shored based specialists that embark on board during aircraft carrier deployments.
* High intensity operations result in the turbofans going through the facility, every three days.
* M88 turbofans are washed with fresh water when they return home.

The article also has a picture of a M88 undergoing service/maintenance at one of the three engine inspection bays on board.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter reporting that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has cleared the Rafale M for the Indian Navy.

But they are Twitter fan boy accounts. Not reliable. Waiting for official confirmation.

One Twitter account tweeted this (which I can agree with!)... :lol:

https://twitter.com/PicMan51/status/163 ... 54016?s=20 ---> Countdown started....1...2....3....New Human Rights Report on India and new democracy index coming soon from the US.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

^ So all that playing with Holi colors with Shri RM didn't wash eh... ah well Bura na mano, Holi thi.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/PicMan51/status/163 ... 54016?s=20 ---> Countdown started....1...2....3....New Human Rights Report on India and new democracy index coming soon from the US.
Manish_P wrote:^ So all that playing with Holi colors with Shri RM didn't wash eh... ah well Bura na mano, Holi thi.
@PicMan51 spoke too soon :lol:

https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/stat ... 34534?s=20 ---> India is ranked 126 in the just-released World Happiness Report. Totalitarian Saudi Arabia is 30, War torn Ukraine 92, Inflation wrecked Turkey 106, Begging bowl Pakistan 108, Bankrupt Sri Lanka 112. Modi has made us peaceful, safe, united, stable, but unhappy. He must resign.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi »

Rakesh wrote:The maritime search radar aboard the Rafale M detects submarines? :D

The author (Shahid Faridi) of the news piece has got a vivid imagination.
I had read that Sea Harriers with this Sea Fox radars could detect the masts of the snorkeling submarines. Also remember that submarines masts have RAM paint which i guess is a precaution against detection whilst snorkeling
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Since submarines spend most of their deployment staying hidden under the water, how is the Rafale going to detect it?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by asbchakri »

Rakesh wrote:Since submarines spend most of their deployment staying hidden under the water, how is the Rafale going to detect it?
maybe like this. Ducking back into my cave.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

asbchakri wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Since submarines spend most of their deployment staying hidden under the water, how is the Rafale going to detect it?
maybe like this

Ducking back into my cave
:rotfl: Nice one Saar!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by NRao »

Rakesh wrote: Having a maintenance facility aboard INS Vikrant will be an excellent move.
Since IN has no plans for operating outside the IOR, basic maintenance capability is to be expected. It is not a novelty.

If and when IN decides to operate further out - Pacific - then they will need the capability to swap engines and the like, including crafts to deliver spare engines to the boat. As a pole in the new world order I for one would like to see this feature ASAP. Granted it will be more of a political feature, but, heck, that is what politics is about. Print the money.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Decent report, in Hindi:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Please use your browser translate

Rafale production seems to be hitting production capacity ceiling. Several of its suppliers facing delays for instance for Titanium parts due to Russia sanctions. Struggling to deliver 3 a/c per month. Existing order book will take 10yrs to deliver.

https://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/l ... i.N2118061

Make in India is a no brainer as I've argued before.
Actually make with India may be needed!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Cyrano wrote:Please use your browser translate

Rafale production seems to be hitting production capacity ceiling. Several of its suppliers facing delays for instance for Titanium parts due to Russia sanctions. Struggling to deliver 3 a/c per month. Existing order book will take 10yrs to deliver.

https://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/l ... i.N2118061

Make in India is a no brainer as I've argued before.
Actually make with India may be needed!
Maybe a good idea to consider Dassault creating a tri-party joint venture in India to meet the demand.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Dassault and French govt know this. Their next project is 6th gen SCAF ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Combat_Air_System ) which the French Govt wants to pursue with Germany and other EU countries but they want US F-35s. France will have a tough time to convince EU to really play their part and finance it. Meanwhile Dassault is worried about sharing knowhow, cutting edge research and proprietary technologies with anyone outside France. Will SCAF ever see progress is a big ?

If France and India are to develop a deep partnership with Rafale, it would need Rafale M and follow on Rafale F3-I orders to make it worthwhile. And perhaps look to collaborate on SCAF/AMCA/TEDBF programs as well. There are many pros and cons for this on both sides. Perhaps we can get Dassault to trust India more than its EU partners.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

"Operated in Ladakh sector, it performed all missions with ease..." India's only female Rafale pilot
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 525204626/
25 May 2023

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1661741927962910721?s=20 ---> I have flown in that area & the aircraft performed as expected and we have carried out all the missions that were entitled to us with utmost ease": Flight Lieutenant Shivangi Singh, the first & only female Rafale fighter pilot on her experience of flying the fighter aircraft in the Ladakh sector amid standoff with China.

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1661738664815370241?s=20 ---> "It was a great learning experience for all of us, we learned the tactics & best practices which are being practised all around the world...performances of Indian pilots were at par or even better in some parts of the exercise...": Flight Lieutenant Xavier on Indian Air Force contingent taking part in the multinational wargame Exercise Orion in France.

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/KyaaBaatHai/status/ ... 29600?s=20 ---> “Carried out missions with utmost ease…,” IAF’s only woman Rafale pilot on India-China standoff at LAC.

https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/1 ... 64518?s=20 ---> With one of the most capable son and daughter of India. In the background is the Rafale — the most capable fighter aircraft of the entire continent. Flight Lieutenant Shivangi Singh and Flight Lieutenant Xavier. Detailed stories coming on @ani soon.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

Cyrano wrote: If France and India are to develop a deep partnership with Rafale, it would need Rafale M and follow on Rafale F3-I orders to make it worthwhile. And perhaps look to collaborate on SCAF/AMCA/TEDBF programs as well. There are many pros and cons for this on both sides. Perhaps we can get Dassault to trust India more than its EU partners.
I have, for, sometime been thinking about a Rafale MKI. the engine and airframe is French. Everything else is Indian. Uttam, EW gear and mission computer.

This aircraft will produced by Dassault India pvt ltd. A 100% Dassault owned subsidiary. This aircraft should be cheaper than any aircraft built in India under technology transfer. It can be the aircraft that has 200+ orders.

When coupled with 200+ Tejas and 200+ MWF it will solve the IAF fleet ageing issue.

Dassault will also get a solid launch partner for the FACS.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Read the tweet below from the official IAF twitter account.

Now imagine the weapon load carried and the threats they will encounter! Katrina pilots are practicing :mrgreen:

Katrina was made for this role. And this is why the IAF bought the aircraft. And if the MRCBF goes to Dassault, similar such exercises will be conducted by the Indian Navy.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1663 ... 21376?s=20 ---> IAF stretching its legs. Four IAF Rafales flew a long range mission for over six hours into the IOR (Indian Ocean Region). The aircraft “fought” their way through a large force engagement on route to their Weapon Release Point. Pickle on time, weapon on target - the IAF way!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale jets conduct exercise in strategic Indian Ocean region
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 99486.html
01 June 2023

https://twitter.com/rahulsinghx/status/ ... 06784?s=20 ---> Four Rafale fighter jets took off from Hasimara AFS, outmaneuvered several 'hostile' warplanes & carried out a 'precision strike against a target' in the Indian Ocean region, with the simulated attack showcasing the IAF’s capability to strike far and strike hard.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:Rafale jets conduct exercise in strategic Indian Ocean region
...
Four Rafale fighter jets took off from Hasimara AFS, outmaneuvered several 'hostile' warplanes...
Interesting. Would the hostile force be Sukhoi lads?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Yes indeed. Our Rambhas simulating the J-11s, Su-30MKKs and J-15s of the PLAAF and PLAN. Probably some MiG-29s or Mirage 2000s as well to simulate the J-10.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 20800?s=20 ---> For those who'd like to know the extent of the mission geographically, here it is. Clearly shows the might of @IAF_MCC supported by @indiannavy over the seas. Reach counts, isn't it? Well Done guys. Keep the powder dry and practice well.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Thanks.

I imagine the Sukhoi boys will just smile about being termed as having been 'out maneuvered' by the Rafales :) .. by civilian folk who haven't seen & realised the sheer size of the area of the exercise.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Why is this so impressive? The MKI with IFR could go from Lohegaon to Ladakh to A&N and return IIRC.

The reach and impact it brings to bear in the IOR along with the brahmos, the rafale can only dream of.

seems like an IAF marketing gimmick to sell the need for more of it's fave... Katrina.
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