VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2016 04:15

For 36 Rafales, I expect the IAF to have purchased around 100+ Meteors...

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 30 Oct 2016 04:34

vivek_ahuja wrote:Quite honestly, the entire Rafale deal is baffling to me. Billions of dollars, dozens of new technologies, god knows how many more weapon system types and all of it bought in penny-packet quantities.

...I refuse to pretend that this is anything other than a fiasco, no matter how TFTA the Rafale might be.

-Vivek

It was the price for canceling the MMRCA. One vendor had to be chosen else penalties for bad faith ~1/6 of the cost. You reap what you sow. AKA's gift keeps giving. Modi negotiated a few unrelated (but strategically important) sops in exchange for double the initial fly away number and got us out of the UPA mess.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Nov 2016 21:52

To: #India Air Force pilots, a sneak peek at #Rafale capabilities you soon will deal with. ( Video )

https://twitter.com/jrvianney/status/779417709952073729

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Nov 2016 01:43

^^^ What is so special about that capability?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Nov 2016 02:39

So 50% of the contract value was to be reverted in the form of offsets. 20% workshare + 30% ToT.

How productive is this ToT infusion supposed to be? (Keep in the mind, its composition is still being negotiated.)

_________________________________________

An interesting snippet from the proceedings of the French Parliament (Assemblée nationale)

[Laurent Collet-Billon, head of the French defense procurement office, Direction Générale de l'Armement (DGA).

Gilbert Le Bris, MP, Socialist Party

Yves Fromion, MP, Republican Party]

Commission de la défense nationale et des forces armées

Mercredi 12 octobre 2016
Séance de 16 heures 30
Compte rendu n° 8

Présidence de Mme Patricia Adam, présidente

Q) M. Gilbert Le Bris: Monsieur le délégué général, en tant qu’ingénieur de l’armement et chef de la DGA depuis près de neuf ans, vous êtes le mieux placé pour répondre à ma question sur le transfert de technologies ou de services lié à des ventes à l’étranger. Nous avons subi une déconvenue avec la Pologne au sujet des hélicoptères Caracal et les négociations sur les Rafale ont été très difficiles en Inde, si bien que je me demande si les industriels ne sous-estiment pas les capacités d’innovation de certains pays lorsqu’ils affirment que notre avance technologique est suffisante pour leur proposer des transferts sans craindre de les aider à nous concurrencer.

Q) M. Yves Fromion: La négociation avec l’Inde s’était ouverte sur 126 Rafale. La commande des 36 appareils est-elle définitive ou peut-on espérer l’augmenter?

A) M. Laurent Collet-Billon: Sur les transferts de technologie, Monsieur Le Bris, nous faisons extrêmement attention. Dans les derniers contrats Rafale, par exemple, il n’y a pas de transfert de technologie du tout. Ce qui était prévu dans le cadre des 126 Rafale, en Inde, n’a pas lieu sur les trente-six ; ce sont des offset qui regardent les industriels mais ne concernent pas des transferts de technologies propres au Rafale.

S’agissant de l’Inde, les trente-six Rafale sont une « tête de gondole ». Quand ils les auront essayés, ils les apprécieront. La facilité de mise en œuvre de l’avion est exceptionnelle, le nombre de personnes nécessaires pour la mise en œuvre est très réduit par rapport à ce que nous avons pu observer sur des avions américains ou russes. Les performances du radar sont extraordinaires. Ce lot de trente-six appareils a été conçu comme une réponse immédiate à un besoin réel des forces indiennes. L’acquisition de ces avions leur permet de constituer un noyau autour duquel les Indiens pourront construire une force aéronautique complémentaire moderne. Ils nous connaissent déjà car ils possèdent une flotte de Mirage 2000, en cours de modernisation, et qui fonctionne très bien. Je pense donc que nous irons assez largement au-delà des trente-six. Dans ce cas se posera peut-être de nouveau la question du transfert d’une chaîne d’intégration en Inde.

Commission of national defense and armed forces

Wednesday, October 12, 2016
Session 4:30 p.m.
Record No. 8

Ms Patricia Adam Presidency, President

Q) Mr. Gilbert Le Bris: Mr. Delegate General, as an engineer of the armament and Chief DGA for almost nine years, you are the best person to answer my question about the transfer of related technology or services to sales abroad. We have suffered a setback with Poland about Caracal helicopters and the Rafale negotiations were very difficult in India, so I wonder if the industry does not underestimate the innovative capabilities of certain countries when they claim that our technological lead is enough to propose transfers without fear of helping them to compete with us.

Q) Mr. Yves Fromion: Negotiations with India was open on 126 Rafale. The order of 36 aircraft it is definitive or can we hope to increase it?

A) Mr. Laurent Collet-Billon: On technology transfer, Mr. Le Bris, we are extremely careful. In the last contracts Rafale, for example, there is no technology transfer at all. What was planned as part of the 126 Rafale, India, does not take place on the thirty-six; these are industrial offsets but do not involve transfer of clean technologies of the Rafale.

Regarding India, the thirty-six Rafale is a "gondola". When they have tried them, they appreciate them. The implementation ease the airplane is outstanding, the number of people required for the implementation is very small compared to what we have seen on US or Russian aircraft. The radar's performance is extraordinary. This batch of thirty-six aircraft was designed as an immediate response to a real need of the Indian forces. The acquisition of these aircraft allows them to form a nucleus around which the Indians can build a modern aircraft complementary force. They already know us because they have a fleet of Mirage 2000 being upgraded, and that works fine. So I think we'll go pretty far beyond the thirty-six. In this case will arise perhaps again the issue of transfer of an integration chain in India.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Nov 2016 09:33

French Pilot Training Suffers at Expense of Rafale Sales Support
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/fre ... es-support

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 10 Nov 2016 12:10

^^ So the Frenchies are flying 155+ Hrs a year per pilot. Is there any data on Rafale Attrition, Availability - etc to go with these numbers?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Nov 2016 12:25

^^ There was some news in French Magzine Spiegal that Rafales and EF2000 have terrible availability rate. Even in that Vayu Round Table conference, it was mentioned that some Frech MoD (or AF, cant remember) report put the availability of Rafales at ~40%.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Nov 2016 12:54

JayS wrote:^^ There was some news in French Magzine Spiegal that Rafales and EF2000 have terrible availability rate. Even in that Vayu Round Table conference, it was mentioned that some Frech MoD (or AF, cant remember) report put the availability of Rafales at ~40%.

That data was erroneous.

Those who spouted that data never bothered to check on the whole thing.

French AF has a practice of NOT keeping all their fighters operational all the time. If the French AF has 100 fighters, 50-60 of them might be in temporary storage. And only the balance 40-50 are operational. This actually makes lot of sense as unlike India, they don't have to contend with hot borders.

Further, French AF uses two metrics - (a) %age of fighters available from overall stock at any given time (b) Availability rate of operational fighters.

The 40% figure or whatever that you refer to is the figure as per calculation (a). No of fighters which are operational from overall stock.

The availability figure is in 80% range for metric (b). It is this figure which we should be looking at. The former has been interpreted as latter in that discussion.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Nov 2016 12:56

^^OK, thanks for clarification.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 10 Nov 2016 14:55

Thanks JayS - Thats what i recalled as well. Thank Rohit for the Clarification

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Nov 2016 15:09

It is easy to keep high operational availability for small amount of fighter say half or 40 % are available of your fleet ,Less amount of money is speed on fleet operational availability , spare , support etc it would be easy for IAF to have operational availability of a fleet of 36 Rafale aircraft say to 70 % then to have 200 MKI at 50 % availability , they will have to spend more resource to keep availability number higher for large numbers

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 10 Nov 2016 18:53

JayS wrote:^^ There was some news in French Magzine Spiegal that Rafales and EF2000 have terrible availability rate. Even in that Vayu Round Table conference, it was mentioned that some Frech MoD (or AF, cant remember) report put the availability of Rafales at ~40%.

Eurofighter :

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03 ... _analysis/

Analysis Yesterday the UK National Audit Office published a detailed report on the current status of the infamous Eurofighter combat jet – nowadays officially known as Typhoon. We here on the Reg defence desk have always had a low opinion of the cripplingly expensive, marginally useful fighter: but even we were amazed by the new facts and figures. The Eurofighter, almost unbelievably, is turning out to be even worse value for money than we had thought.
A Tranche 1 Eurofighter in RAF service

This plane is new and has just been expensively upgraded.

It will be scrapped soon.

Probably the most dismal figure we are given is that the RAF will actually put into service just 107 Typhoons. At the moment it has received 70: the last of the 160 planes ordered by the UK will be delivered in 2015. But, we are told, "by 2019" all the Tranche 1 jets (which were still being delivered to the RAF at the start of 2008) will be "retired" – that is, thrown away. We'll pay for 160 jets (actually we'll pay for 2321), but we'll only ever get a fleet of 107.

This shows the acquisition cost of the Eurofighter/Typhoon in an even worse light than it had previously appeared, when an RAF fleet of 160 had been expected. It is now acknowledged that the development and production cost to the UK of Eurofighter will be £23bn with planned upgrades.

This means that we UK taxpayers will have shelled out no less than £215m for each of our 107 jets – that's $350m at today's rates, rather more than the US taxpayers have been made to pay for each of their 185 Raptor superfighters2, almost all of which will be used operationally. And the Raptor has third-generation Stealth: the Eurofighter has no stealth features at all. The Raptor has thrust vectoring for unbeatable manoeuvrability in a dogfight: the Eurofighter doesn't.

The Raptor is a hugely more sophisticated and powerful aircraft, and is actually – astonishingly – somewhat cheaper, despite the fact that it is being made in much smaller numbers than the Eurofighter!

That's a really astonishingly bad bit of value for money on our part.

Unfortunately the problems won't be over when the final RAF Typhoons are delivered. There are major problems with spare parts and support, unsurprisingly as the Eurofighter's manufacturing is distributed across Germany, Spain and Italy as well as the UK. The NAO auditors write:

There are indications of problems with the collaborative contracts for the supply of spares and repair of equipment. There have been shortages of spares and long timescales for equipment repairs on some of these contracts ...

The [2008] spares procurement contract does not include penalties for late delivery ...

To compensate, the Department [the MoD] has had to take parts from some of its Typhoon aircraft to make other aircraft available to fly.

Oh, those troublesome foreigners and their ramshackle collaborative arrangements! Who could possibly have been responsible for such a rubbish setup?

... the Department played a central role in establishing the collaborative management structures that still exist today.

As the biggest buyer, it was actually the good old MoD which had the biggest input into setting up the multinational collaboration system – and it seems to have done its usual brilliant job.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Nov 2016 05:50

Rafale M availability was just 53.6% in 2015, up from 46.6% the year before. Really dismal availability rates for the French Navy's aircraft. From the Atlantique MPA to its E-2C Hawkeye AEWACS to its fighters.

French naval aircraft operational availability revealed in letter to MP

ARIS — The French Navy’s three-strong fleet of Hawkeye E-2C spy planes increased its 2015 operational availability to 32.3 percent from 24.7 percent in the previous year, and last year's maintenance bill for the aircraft was €30 million (US $33 million), according to the French Ministry of Defense.

The details on cost of maintenance were in the ministry’s Nov. 8 written response to François Cornut-Gentille, a member of the French parliament, who had asked the Navy how much the service paid to maintain its aircraft.

The average age of the Northrop Grumman Hawkeye airborne warning and control planes flown by the French Navy was 15.9 years at the end of 2015.

The 23 Dassault Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft had the lowest availability, with 26.2 percent compared to 25.9 percent, and cost €117.3 million to maintain. The average age was 26.2 years.

A 39-strong fleet of Dassault Rafale "M" fighters was available for use 53.6 percent, up from 46.6 percent, with a maintenance bill of €158.9 million. The average age was 7.1 years.

The 21 Dassault Super Étendard Modernisé fighter saw its availability climb to 46.5 percent, up from 26.8 percent, with a maintenance cost of €18.8 million. The Navy this summer withdrew the jet from service, as the plane had an average age of 46.5 years. Navy pilots had flown the Super Étendard from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle for bombing missions over Iraq and Syria.

The highest availability was with the five Dassault Falcon 200 Gardian surveillance jets, with 69 percent compared to 65 percent, at a cost of €25.6 million. The average age for the aircraft was 25.6 years.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Nov 2016 06:44

Air Forces around he world are known to trade availability, and readiness to support other elements in their budget. You can buy both availability and readiness back if you so wish but then you may not have money left over for other obligations. Unless you have extremely unreliable system or an unskilled or untrained workforce, a low availability rate is more a symptom of a lack of proper investment into maintaining readiness. If it's a chronic concern then you made the wrong choice with your hardware. The latter is the Gripen Cs argument in that it can allow western operators to maintain relatively high availability at a relatively low cost compared to the other two European aircraft, or even the US medium sized fighters.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Nov 2016 22:48

France Promises 50 Years of Support to Indian Rafale Jets

The most eye catching detail about the Rafael deal disclosed in the Indian Parliament was product support to the 36 combat jets for 50 years.
https://goo.gl/mnXYjF

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 26 Nov 2016 23:08

Given the absymal record of 5G fighter serviceability, it will be a decade or more before we see increase in serviceability of these fighter class.

Now that Rafales are confirmed to be IAF service. I think Indian interests would be best served to give FGFA the go by and focus on AMCA and Tejas into service. Get another 5 squadrons of Rafales if needed.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Dec 2016 22:34

Rafale Fighter Jet Serviceability Rate With French Air Force Is 48.5%
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17812/ ... EGon_nF9Ls

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Dec 2016 10:49

India clears first Rafale payment

India clears first payment for Rafale

NEW DELHI. India has cleared the first payment of 15 per cent to seal the deal for 36 Rafale combat aircraft with the French Government.

Sources told India Strategic that the instalment was cleared recently, and as per the contract, the French Government will deliver the first few aircraft within three years, that is sometime in 2019. India has though requested France to speed the delivery to the extent possible.

Industry sources in Paris also said that aircraft manufacturer Dassault had started working with its partners well in advance towards the Indian requirement, particularly as the Indian Air Force had asked for some specific modifications.

Dassault leads the consortium with Safran and Thales doing the engines and electronic systems and suites. In fact, the latter two have higher share each than Dasssault which designs, integrates and markets combat and civil aircraft.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Dec 2016 12:02

Paul wrote:Given the absymal record of 5G fighter serviceability, it will be a decade or more before we see increase in serviceability of these fighter class.

Mission Capable Rate:
F-22 - 67%
F-35 - 66% (working upto 74% objective ~ F-16 level)

[MC rate - availability at unit level. Doesn't include aircraft at depot/overhaul.]

If the aircraft is designed for higher reliability & easier servicing, being fifth gen isn't inherently a barrier to high operational availability.

The FGFA is a concern because serviceability has been a perennial issue with Russian-origin equipment. That said, maybe the PAK FA is different and may have adopted western design principles. Time will tell.

Now that Rafales are confirmed to be IAF service. I think Indian interests would be best served to give FGFA the go by and focus on AMCA and Tejas into service. Get another 5 squadrons of Rafales if needed.

Tejas Mk1A - 2021. Tejas Mk2 - 2026. The AMCA isn't entering service before 2035 at the earliest.

Unfortunately, the Rafale has fundamental limitations when tasked with operating in airspace dominated by Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/D2) threats, particularly long range SAM systems and AWACS.

The Tejas, of course, is a must, being a cost effective solution to low-to-mid range workhorse mission sets (CAP, CAS, BAI etc).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 00:33

As per Livefist No 17 Golden Arrows Sqn will be the first Katrina squadron to be raised in the IAF. The Sqn was once commanded by Air Marshal BS Dhanoa who will become Air Chief on 31 Dec 2016.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/813997803332509697

However Wiki Chacha states that No 17 Sqn flies Rambhas out of Bhatinda AFS.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._17_Squadron_IAF

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 29 Dec 2016 09:59

I thought rafale was China centric or for a strategic role, in that case shouldn't it be deployed on Eastern sector or somewhere deep in India

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 10:07

Ranjan: locations do not matter anymore. Those were for interceptors like the MiG-21. IAF Sqns can relocate all their vital assets in under 48 hours. The presence of in-flight refuellers also negate the need to stage the Rafale (or any plane) in any specific theatre. Mirage 2000s are stationed in the heart of India - Maharajpur AFS in Gwalior, Madhya Pradesh. All three M2K Sqns come under the Central Air Command. But during Kargil, No 7 Battle Axes Sqn sent a flight of M2Ks to operate from Srinagar AFS.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2016 10:14

Also, the only reason why Rambhas are stationed in the Western, Eastern, South-Western (and soon Southern) Air Commands is to distribute the assets. You don't place all your eggs in one basket. The IAF wants the two Rafale Sqns stationed at two different bases and with the paltry order of 36 aircraft, Dassault balked.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 29 Dec 2016 11:31

Rakesh Saar,

Thanks for the response, that is exactly my point that why not keep such prized assets deep inside india ...safe ...and then they can be taken anywhere during war time...

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 29 Dec 2016 14:51

Why a merit-less Rafale buy can’t be justified

https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/12/29/why ... justified/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Dec 2016 10:27

^^ashishvikas: Why give this man any attention?

ranjan: take a look at this...

Sarsawa air base likely to host first Rafale squadron
http://www.sify.com/news/sarsawa-air-ba ... iijaf.html

According to sources, the air base is being geared up for the squadron, while two more bases are to be identified. The deliveries of the aircraft will start in September 2019 and will be completed in April, 2022. Sources said a team from Dassault Aviation visited the air base last month, and a feasibility test was carried out. The infrastructure for hosting the squadron and its maintenance is being created at the air base.

Why two more airbases? Is that a typo?

India, France ink deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 71909.html

From an article in Sep 2016, I found this gem...

The Rafales will be stationed at two bases - Sarsawa in Haryana and Hasimara in West Bengal.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Dec 2016 10:30

Indian Govt Clears First Payment For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18079/ ... dian_media

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Dec 2016 22:24

Rakesh wrote:As per Livefist No 17 Golden Arrows Sqn will be the first Katrina squadron to be raised in the IAF. The Sqn was once commanded by Air Marshal BS Dhanoa who will become Air Chief on 31 Dec 2016.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/813997803332509697

However Wiki Chacha states that No 17 Sqn flies Rambhas out of Bhatinda AFS.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._17_Squadron_IAF

IDRW has requested to not cut & paste their articles, so just providing a link...

Decorated No.17 Golden Arrows Squadron belonging to Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja and New Air Chief to be resurrected for first Rafale squadron of the IAF
http://idrw.org/decorated-no-17-golden- ... adron-iaf/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Dec 2016 22:30

Hasimara Air Force Station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasimara_ ... ce_Station
This one is just south of Bhutan

Sarsawa Air Force Station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarsawa_Air_Force_Station
Right smack in the middle of Pakistan and CoT (Chinese Occupied Tibet)

Cut & paste the coordinates in Google Maps (from the above Wiki Links) and you will see....

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 02 Jan 2017 01:42

When I was in school and sometimes when I would miss my school bus I would do wish it to come back for me...Bharat karnad is acting exactly same.. Though I like him pushing for indigenous stuff

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 02 Jan 2017 02:37

Hopefully we'll place order for additional squadrons this year.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jan 2017 22:18

Not going to happen. Rafales are done unless Dassault offers a miracle.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jan 2017 22:48

nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:New Delhi: Frontline Indian Air Force base in Hasimara in West Bengal is likely to be one of the bases for a Rafale squadron, informed sources said on Friday.
The first squadron is likely to be based at the Sarsawa base in Uttar Pradesh. One more base for the third squadron remains to be identified.
Each of these IAF squadrons will have 12 Rafale fighter jets.
IAF is changing its usual squadron strength for the Rafales? 36 aircraft would usually be only 2 squadrons.

If there are going to be only 12 aircraft per squadron (12 x 2 = 24), that would mean 12 aircraft (six per squadron) would serve as trainers, attrition reserves, etc. Any confirmed info on the number of two seaters being acquired? Seems awfully low.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Jan 2017 22:54

Karthik S wrote:Hopefully we'll place order for additional squadrons this year.

I think the IAF was banking on being able to persuade the govt. into buying more after getting the initial 36. So they insisted on the 36. Now with the new single-engine fighter line and the unaffordability of the Rafale itself this is not going to happen. We are going to be stuck with 36 aircraft of a new type out of the >500 combat aircraft that IAF operates. Sheer stupidity.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jan 2017 22:57

Amen nachiket! In light of the single engine comedy session that is going on right now, this 36 Rafale order is money wasted. Since the F Solah is coming, cancel the Rafale deal (pay the penalties...way cheaper than the ~ $8 - 9 billion being spent) and use the money towards the F Solah.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Jan 2017 10:03

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2017 13:32

The interesting aspect of that report would Hasimara Airbase would developed into 2nd Airbase after Gwalior where Nuclear Infrastructure for Weapons storage etc would be developed ......We have to see if there is any google images available over period of time how the Airbase infra gets developed

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 07 Jan 2017 13:40

^^ what's the need to see Google images of Indian mil locations ...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Jan 2017 02:11

Eye on China, India to base first squadron of Rafale fighter jets in Bengal
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 387343.cms

“The Hasimara airbase currently has MiG-27s that will be retired over the next two-three years. They will be replaced by Rafales. A team from Dassault Aviation has already visited Hasimara to review the maintenance and other infrastructure required there,“ said an official.

Which squadron serves at Hasimara AFS operating MiG-27s?