VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2019 10:39

ramana wrote:First post on this page says Mirage 2000 performance in Kargil spurred the IAF to buy more.

Dassault came back and said the M2K line is shutting down and no can do but we have Rafale.

The original idea was to get replacement for the 50 odd M2Ks.

Someone added the phased out MiG-21 to the mix and increased the quantity to 126 MMRCA in 2000 itself.

That's where the gotala started with increased numbers.
The replacement for the Mig-21 is not the Rafale/MMRCA.

The 20+20+ 83 Tejas and the 200 odd Tejas MWF are to replace the MiG fleet. Total 123+200 i.e. 323 Tejas.
To put in perspective, India bought ~ 550 French jets since the first Dassault Oruguan fighter in 1953.
Essentially India was the third leg for the French aircraft industry : French Air Force, India, & Gulf countries.

No Sir things are a bit mixed up

1) Mirage 2000 performance in Kargil spurred the IAF to buy more.- Yes Both Govt and George Fernandes and NDA were ready

2) Then Tehelka and coffin scam happened, Govt was on the Back foot was afraid of scandals and single Vendor situation, all Tehelka cases were closed in 2012 by CBI citing lack of evidence

3) Ordered 10 M-2000 as stop gap method and was running normal procedures and negotiations to get 126 M-2000-5 18 fly away and 108 licenced built in India

4) in 2004-05 2000-5 acquisition was called as a single vendor situation and hence skipped. USD 10.8 Billion MMRCA competition started in 2006.

5) Dassualt at that time said expecting the procedures to take some said the M-2000 line is closing, cant wait forever and fielded Rafale in MMRCA contest

MMRCA turned out into a fiasco with nothing ordered till 2014 with even Su 30 MKI fleet brought down to 38%. it seems since some members int he family have been assassinated, others are afraid and like to keep our enemies satisfied by keeping our armed in an incompetent state so that they can best do a defensive battle and cannot take offensive measures.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Mar 2019 10:46

Indranil wrote:Chetak ji,

It is equally easy to find two tweets in the opposite sentiment than what you just produced. And then write a long comment contrary to what you wrote.

But that would be foolhardy. Just saying.

Indranil ji.

these two tweets are on right on the dot. Even though I had seen them much earlier and in the wild, I chose to gloss over them. The two tweets were not posted by me. I merely replied to them, more as an observation rather than with any intention to criticize.

Everybody is aware of the situation that obtains in many PSUs as also the toxic culture and the extreme entitlement mentality that pervades almost all of them.

Anyone who has dealt with these PSU guys for a longish period will confirm that.

many a time good people hesitate and simply do not follow the golden mean of "let's call a spade a spade, not a gardening tool"

The PSUs are a monopoly, without the acknowledgement, or even facing the legal consequences of forced single tender quoting. In the real world, given the gargantuan size of the contracts, they would have been hauled to court. Their angry, cheated and unhappy customers would not be forced to keep quiet because some baboo(n) jokers in some ministry(ies) got paid off.

How do you think some PSU like BEML survived even after gouging the country for years and years by selling obsolete TATRAs??

"Price negotiations" with these guys are a sad joke because this so called farce of "Price negotiations" takes place, despite the single tender situation.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 09 Mar 2019 18:25

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-iaf.html By Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis

All officers of the Israel Defence Forces, on their commissioning into service, go to an ancient hill fortification called Masada and take a vow: Masada shall not fall again. Masada was the site of the last great siege of the Jewish-Roman war [AD 66-73] which, effectively, marked the end of the kingdom of Israel.

The IDF, created along with modern Israel in 1948, has been able to live up to the vow of Masada because of an unwavering national commitment, placing security above everything else.

India, too, made a vow not to let the 'Himalayan blunder' of 1962 happen again. This vow was renewed 50 years later, alas, with words, but not enough action.

The Indian Air Force is conscious of the dominant role it has to play to avert a repeat of the 1962 military defeat at the hands of China. But the IAF's understanding of its responsibilities serves little purpose if the nation does not give it the support it needs to prevent the inevitable.

It is the responsibility of all Indians to understand that “a repeat of 1962” is not military hype, but an ominous possibility. Political one-upmanship over the Rafale deal and the media’s insensitivity to national security can turn this possibility into a probability. I will not hesitate to call this an anti-national activity.

The government-to-government deal for acquisition of 36 Rafale fighters from Dassault Aviation was a masterstroke. As the Rafale takes to the Indian skies, the IAF's morale will take an upward leap.

The Rafale outranks contemporary fighters—except Lockheed Martin’s F-35—in most parameters of operational capabilities, safety features and ease of operation/ training/ maintenance. The Rafale gives 'bang for the buck', if its entire life cycle performance is considered. If our experience with the Mirage 2000 from the Dassault stable can be a guideline, there should be little doubt about the Rafale’s contractual obligations being proven in performance.

In aviation technology jargon, the IAF's last major acquisition, the Russian-origin Su-30MKI fighter, could be termed as a fourth generation aircraft. The Rafale, on the other hand, could be considered a fighter of the 4.5 to fifth generation. The Rafale is streets ahead of the Su-30MKI with much smaller radar and infra-red signatures, making it harder to detect. Its electronic warfare systems allow for greater ranges of detection and neutralisation of threats. The Rafale offers a substantial increase in radius of action in air-to-air as well as air-to-ground roles, greater weapons load and more wing and fuselage stations (14 in total) to carry weapons and fuel tanks.

The Rafale has multi-sensor 'data fusion', which is the ability to collate and process information from multiple sensors to give the pilot a consolidated air situation 'map'. The data fusion capability is based on the Rafale's RBE-2 radar, front sector optronics (FSO) detection system, the SPECTRA electronic warfare suite and other systems.

SPECTRA provides a terrific enhancement to the IAF's ability to operate in highly 'dense' hostile environments where there is a heavy presence of anti-aircraft radars and weapons. SPECTRA not only allows the Rafale to detect and localise a threat against the aircraft, but also selects the most effective countermeasures against it.

The RBE-2 radar is capable of conducting engagement of beyond-visual-range targets at distances beyond 100km. It is also capable of real-time generation of 2D and 3D maps for ultra low level flying in 'absolute' blind conditions, which is otherwise well nigh impossible. I had seen this capability being demonstrated when I flew a Rafale prototype.

The long-range radar-guided Meteor air-to-air missile, which will arm the Rafale, will give the aircraft air dominance. The Meteor offers unique features such as a two-way datalink—it allows the aircraft to transmit target updates to the weapon after it is fired—and a ramjet propulsion system that enables neutralisation of even very fast-moving targets at very long ranges. The Meteor's 'no escape zone’—zone in which an aircraft cannot rely on mere agility to evade a missile—is thrice that of the current US-made AIM-120 AMRAAM missile.

In addition to weapon systems and sensors, the Rafale will provide the IAF a huge leap forward in ease of maintenance. This includes the capability to replace engines in a matter of hours, as opposed to the couple of days required to do the same for Russian aircraft. The Rafale comes with an integrated logistics support module that allows for monitoring of aircraft 'health' and usage, along with built-in testing facilities.

As it is an easier aircraft to maintain than the Su-30MKI, the Rafale’s downtime is substantially lower; it can launch a greater number of sorties over a uniform period of time. The Rafale's automatic engine control system is highly reliable; it controls engine operation in case of malfunctions or damage in flight.

Armchair pundits claim that buying more Su-30MKI fighters would be a more cost-effective option than buying the Rafale. The Su-30MKI's technology is dated in all parameters. In addition, with respect to failure rates, reliability, sortie-generation capabilities and a host of other performance parameters, the Su-30MKI ranks a poor second to even its predecessor in the IAF, the Mirage 2000. The Rafale is a quantum leap over the Mirage-2000.

Early in the previous decade, just before the deal for the British advanced jet trainer (AJT) Hawk was all but finalised, an emergency meeting headed by the defence minister was called, with a number of bureaucrats, scientists and IAF officers in attendance. The sole objective of the meeting was to scuttle the purchase of the Hawk on the grounds of its 'unjustifiably' high price tag. The scientific adviser to the defence minister made the preposterous claim that his department could design and manufacture an AJT in the time frame the British would take to supply the Hawk. Fortunately, the IAF could call this 'unified' bluff, and the Hawk deal went through.

If India is serious about thwarting Chinese claims to our territory, it should shake off its lethargy in decision making and take corrective action to neutralise the asymmetry in military capabilities. A stiff upper lip in the face of dwindling assets and ageing technology fools not the enemy, but a callous nation bogged down in the mire of its own making.

Converting the initial deal for 36 Rafales to the original IAF requirement for 126 aircraft is the crying need of the hour to counter emerging Chinese capabilities in stealth technology, cruise missiles and airborne early warning systems.

I believe the Rafale would be the clear winner of the IAF's new tender to buy 114 fighters, if value for money, and not lowest bid price, is the main criterion.

As a warrior in mind, if not in uniform, I fervently hope—for the sake of India's safety and economy— that the Rafale will prevail.

Every ****** word is a gem in this article.Useful idiots in the country need to read and digest the above.

titash · Post by **titash** » 09 Mar 2019 20:43

MeshaVishwas wrote:https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-iaf.html By Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis
...
Every ****** word is a gem in this article.Useful idiots in the country need to read and digest the above.

What this article reinforces is the extreme value that the Tejas programme bring to the IAF.

A highly reliable modular fuel efficient engine will enable high availability, low mission failure rates, and cost effectiveness. In house development enables the integration of newer/higher capability indigenous & foreign off the shelf weapons as they become available. A win-win.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 09 Mar 2019 20:57

Modi had clearly mentioned rafale and the absence of it in one of his recent speeeches. Clearly the views in the above article will be shared by many in the govt and iaf. Events in the last 2 weeks should have made national security a priority over screwdrivergiri. Time to scrap the 110 plane tender and go for rafale to fill the gap.
I suspect the tender will be used by LM and eu-f to play mischief in concert with opposition and convert it into a never ending saga.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Mar 2019 23:05

I just wish GOI had ordered 54 Rafale not 36. The 3 squadrons Rafale + 3 Sq Upg Mirage built up to full sq. strength with a few more 2nd hand Mirage 2000s, by themselves would have been phenomenal & plus LCA orders, Su-30 Upgrades+ 21 MiG-29s + 20 additional Su-30s, we could have just scrapped the MMRCA & managed very well on our own. Cost effective and enough. But all this is hindsight.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 10 Mar 2019 00:45

Is US trying to slowly kill the Tejas by pushing F-16 ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 00:46

MMRCA =/= Tejas LWF.
One way or the other, 123 airframes are being built . MMRCA can cut into the 200 unit MWF order but again that depends on many factors.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 10 Mar 2019 01:12

I'm certain that a follow on order of 36 more rafale jets will be placed once the fresh NDA Govt is in place.

Not sure the Govt has the fiscal space to place an order for 126 though

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 10 Mar 2019 01:14

MMRCA will be used to bring the squadron strength up to 42. It can't cut into orders for either Tejas Mk 1 or Mk 2. Tejas Mk 1 will help replace the 9 squadrons of MiG-21 and MiG-27 that are due for retirement within the next decade. 12 squadrons of Mk 2 will replace MiG-29 (3 squadrons), Mirage 2000 (3 squadrons) and Jaguar (5 squadrons). From Air Marshal Nambiar in Salute:

Our aircraft of the future, as we perceive it as of today, is the LCA Mark II. This aircraft, we believe, will replace the MiG 29 in the next ten years, the Jaguar in the next 15 years and the Mirage 2000 in the next 20 years. All combined, this adds up to a total of twelve squadrons.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2019 01:31

Well discerned Sahay.

khan · Post by **khan** » 10 Mar 2019 04:37

Will Meteor missile work ok any other IAF plane - especially Mirage 2000?

Seems to be that would be the real game-changer vis-à-vis Pakistan. The stealth stuff is more important for China.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Mar 2019 04:42

Meteor cannot be carried on board the upgraded Mirage 2000I/TI.

Meteor would have worked for the Tejas had Thales allowed the Elta AESA radar to be mated with the missile, but Thales refused. So now Astra Mk2 will take on that role.

This Week, IAF’s Dreams Of Meteor-Armed LCA Tejas Could Formally Die
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... y-die.html

khan · Post by **khan** » 10 Mar 2019 05:15

Rakesh wrote:Meteor cannot be carried on board the upgraded Mirage 2000I/TI.

Meteor would have worked for the Tejas had Thales allowed the Elta AESA radar to be mated with the missile, but Thales refused. So now Astra Mk2 will take on that role.

This Week, IAF’s Dreams Of Meteor-Armed LCA Tejas Could Formally Die
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... y-die.html

Thank you for the backstory - I should have guessed it was about the Indian procurement process that we have all come to know and love.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Mar 2019 05:22

This is more arrogance on Thales' part than our procurement process.

This is a good move though. Will spur on the development of the Astra Mk2 with that much greater expediency.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Mar 2019 05:33

Rahul Gandhi adds another falsehood to his Rafale lies, says Rafale engine was to be made in Odisha
https://www.opindia.com/2019/03/rahul-g ... in-odisha/

In case of Rafale, it is French company Safran (formerly Snecma) which makes the Snecma M88-2 engines used in the Rafale jets. Safran already has a joint venture with HAL to manufacture some parts of the M88 engine in India. Snecma HAL Aerospace Private Limited plant is located in Whitefield Industrial area in Bengaluru. Which means, if Safran makes the engines in India, they will most probably make it in their own JV company with HAL, not the HAL engine plant in Odisha.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Mar 2019 05:34

^^^ This is the Snecma-HAL joint venture for the Snecma M88 engine....

Safran Aircraft Engines HAL AEROSPACE PVT LTD - Safran Aircraft Engines HAL Aerospace Pvt Ltd
https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com ... ce-pvt-ltd

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2019 12:57

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-iaf.html

AM Tipnis bats for rafale.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Mar 2019 18:36

^^^ needs to be read in full

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 10 Mar 2019 23:18

suryag wrote:AM Tipinis on the Rafale deal and how it is a game changer
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-iaf.html

Zabardast. We need more such pieces, now is the time to force goi to move in direction of more rafale

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 Mar 2019 23:29

God willing, soon after the elections.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Mar 2019 00:30

When will we learn? Cannot rely on imports!! The LCA needs accelerated manufacture with perhaps private participation. MK2 development cycle needs to be in tune with ground realities and IAF needs to embed its project managers in the development team!! Believe in yourself! Stop this begging!

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Mar 2019 00:51

Vivek K wrote:When will we learn? Cannot rely on imports!! The LCA needs accelerated manufacture with perhaps private participation. MK2 development cycle needs to be in tune with ground realities and IAF needs to embed its project managers in the development team!! Believe in yourself! Stop this begging!

I agree. Even if another G to G deal was signed by June 1, it would 2024 when deliveries start. The LCA Tejas can be in production in far more numbers by then. It would also provide far more technical aerospace engineering depth too. I would take a 100 Tejas over 36 Rafales any day.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Mar 2019 04:22

In the meantime, in 2019 Dassault will deliver around 26 Rafales, including the first aircraft for India, which are due to be handed over around mid-year.

Rafale fighter production 'alive' for next decade
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... de-456291/

This is a >50% in production/delivery rate on the Rafale YOY. They will naturally want to sustain this so expect a serious push to offer an initial batch for MIF Rafale's at a heavy discount which may be worth looking into for the IAF/MOD given that they'll be cheaper and faster to arrive than a more protracted long term process under MII for the MRCA 2.0.

It may be smart to do away with the current competition and look to negotiate for a follow on order of 36 Rafale. Running a program for 100+ figthers under MII will likely be time consuming with additional time required to set up assembly locally. A quick follow up order can be done faster once the political climate changes post election.

No MMRCA 2.0 competitor can offset the $2 Billion "Customization" sunk cost that Dassault/Rafale have already been sanctioned so time to do away with the competition in the interest of force structure and operational need...

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 11 Mar 2019 04:44

We should order 1 squadron of Rafale every year, at least till 2025 if not 2030

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Mar 2019 05:10

VKumar, this was already addressed by Indranil in response to the same statement you made in the previous page of this thread. I reproduce his post below. Why are you bringing the same argument again?

Indranil wrote:To what end? Are there better means of spending $20 billion dollars? And I don't mean roti, kapda makaan.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Mar 2019 05:30

36 Rafale would form 2 squadrons. If rapid force projection is required the IAF should consider 1-2 more of squadrons. However looking at more LCA Mk1/1A and getting into the groove with MK2 development would deliver the required fleet enhancement.

The less we look to phoren solutions, the more powerful India will become. Get rid of all dalals and don’t fall for the same “national security trick” again. Build your capability and become sovereign. Don’t throw your money on someone else’s industry! Grow your own.

Why do we look for someone to prove if it was an F16 or not. If we’re sure then blockade Pakistan and demand the offending weapon systems are returned. If that is not done, have the guts to force the Pakistanis to ground them yourself.

It was sickening to sit and watch the damsel in distress dog and pony show by Congress. If someone has wronged India, then India better set the record straight. Itself!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Mar 2019 06:18

Mort Walker wrote:
Vivek K wrote:When will we learn? Cannot rely on imports!! The LCA needs accelerated manufacture with perhaps private participation. MK2 development cycle needs to be in tune with ground realities and IAF needs to embed its project managers in the development team!! Believe in yourself! Stop this begging!
I agree. Even if another G to G deal was signed by June 1, it would 2024 when deliveries start. The LCA Tejas can be in production in far more numbers by then. It would also provide far more technical aerospace engineering depth too. I would take a 100 Tejas over 36 Rafales any day.

@Vivek - you cannot fill the air force with just Tejas aircraft. Each aircraft serves a special role. For example, you cannot expect Tejas Mk1/Mk1A to have the reach of the Rafale F3R. The Tejas Mk2 has not even had her first flight yet and the numbers are going down. A $2 billion investment has already been made at Ambala and Hasimara. It makes perfect sense to capitalize on that investment and induct at least two more squadrons.

@Mort - The industry standard is three years from contract signature to the delivery of the first batch. For example, the Rafale deal was signed in Sept 2016 and the first batch will be due for delivery in Sept 2019. If a contract is signed on June 01, 2019 and the first batch will be ready for delivery by June 2022. From a pure build experience perspective, I would take 100 Tejas over 36 Rafales any day. But the Rafale has a clearly defined role that no other aircraft in the air force currently can provide. Other the F-35, the Rafale is the next best bird to break down the door.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Mar 2019 06:27

brar_w wrote:
In the meantime, in 2019 Dassault will deliver around 26 Rafales, including the first aircraft for India, which are due to be handed over around mid-year.
Rafale fighter production 'alive' for next decade
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... de-456291/

Very good find Brar. Kudos to you!

brar_w wrote:This is a >50% in production/delivery rate on the Rafale YOY. They will naturally want to sustain this so expect a serious push to offer an initial batch for MIF Rafale's at a heavy discount which may be worth looking into for the IAF/MOD given that they'll be cheaper and faster to arrive than a more protracted long term process under MII for the MRCA 2.0.

Yes indeed. Amazon's Prime Video (I mentioned this earlier in this thread) has a documentary on the Rafale which stated that by 2018, Dassault is looking to expand production to 33 aircraft annually. This 26 aircraft for 2019 is close to that mark. I believe the Merginac factory was doing the bare minimum of 11 aircraft per year until 2018.

brar_w wrote:It may be smart to do away with the current competition and look to negotiate for a follow on order of 36 Rafale's. Running a program for 100+ figthers under MII will likely be time consuming with additional time required to set up assembly locally. A quick follow up order can be done faster once the political climate changes post election.

The best bet is to buy additional Rafales off the shelf, as you have mentioned. This local assembly is just a political gimmick. Instead of doing screwdrivergiri on Rafales, it would be better to get offsets on components. I honestly hope they scrap MMRCA 2.0 post the 2019 elections.

brar_w wrote:No MMRCA 2.0 competitor can offset the $2 Billion "Customization" sunk cost that Dassault/Rafale have already been sanctioned so time to do away with the competition in the interest of force structure and operational need...

That is the greatest advantage that the Rafale has. Also, I do not believe there is any game changing technology on the other aircraft that will justify the purchase of another type. You might know more than me on this. I just hope this is not a replay of the Mirage 2000/MiG-29 story of the 1980s. We got neither aircraft in larger numbers. Just ad hoc purchases. Neither here nor there.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Mar 2019 06:32

You are right. There is nothing that any other product can offer that is going to be at par or superior to what the IAF is getting with the Rafale. The only reason I can see for the competition is because of the optics and politics which should, hopefully, go away after the election allowing the MOD to begin shaping the demand for a 36 aircraft follow on order followed by perhaps another one in the second half of the 2020's dependent upon how the MWF program has proceeded by then. The three best penetrating western tactical platforms currently out there today are the F-35, F-22 and Rafale (with F-15E to eventually achieve parity once its EW/EA suite is fielded) and out of these only one is on offer on the MRCA with the advantages of sunk cost and customization already sanctioned and in the works. Time to end the MMRCA tamasha..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Mar 2019 06:33

Vivek K wrote:36 Rafale would form 2 squadrons. If rapid force projection is required the IAF should consider 1-2 more of squadrons. However looking at more LCA Mk1/1A and getting into the groove with MK2 development would deliver the required fleet enhancement.

Two additional squadrons are the bare minimum Vivek. At least two more squadrons are necessary.

40 Mk1s and 83 Mk1As are on order. I would like to see at least two more Tejas Mk1/Mk1A squadrons ordered.

Around 10 squadrons of Tejas Mk2s are planned. I am sure you can do the numbers on that math

With the IAF fully behind the bird, the Tejas has a bright future ahead of her.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Mar 2019 07:25

IAF should have insisted on the Qatari Mirages. Are they still available? Instead of additional Mig29s from Russian cold storage, I wish they would look at M2ks instead.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Mar 2019 07:51

Problem is the sheer cost of the French upgrades and their vendor lock-in. Non French munitions are not easy to integrate, we do so on our coin and a lot of effort. But having said the initial all-french package itself is a great one, you get all items, EW, AI radar, glass pit, AA missiles, ASM, AshM, LGB etc etc.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2019 09:31

suryag wrote:AM Tipinis on the Rafale deal and how it is a game changer
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-iaf.html

What he says is contrary to what IAF and MOD has been saying about MKI , Plus we are comparing MKI with 2 decades of service in IAF to a fighter that is yet to enter squadron service.

No doubt Rafale is a good aircraft and with all the bells and whistles it comes at a cost as well. And with upgrade to Super MKI MKI would be on par with Rafale in most areas if not all.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2019 09:37

If IAF buys more Rafale it will have to mortgage its CAPEX for the next 10 years. These birds are prohibitively expensive even for IAF budget.

The small buy is for SFC as they would be used for Strategic Mission and has such been customised as well. The tip of the spear for SFC

The next competition for 108 fighter IMHO would be 3 way contest between Gripen , F-16 and Mig-35 .....The Eurofighter , Su-35 and Rafale are just there for RFP sake.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 11 Mar 2019 09:58

Austin wrote: The next competition for 108 fighter IMHO would be 3 way contest between Gripen , F-16 and Mig-35 .....The Eurofighter , Su-35 and Rafale are just there for RFP sake.

Grifen - in what shape or form is is better than the LCA?
F-16 - no way will the IAF accept it specially after the recent clash with Pakistan despite LM re-naming it F21!!
Mig 35 - the IAF has also had it's fill of maintenance intensive Russian aircraft so they will say nyet to that. Besides, renaming the Mig 29 the Mig 35 is like LM renaming the F16 as the F21.

And that brings us back to the Rafale and the IAF will want them in whatever numbers the budget can afford.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Mar 2019 09:59

Austin, its not merely for SFC, its for overall war fighting, same as Mirage 2000's N-role did not prevent them from being the primary go to aircraft at Kargil. The Su-30s need more investments in EW & A2A weaponry to complement the Rafale, we aren't there yet.

36 more Rafale will be cheaper than a farcical 114 MII of yet another type. We should just focus the remaining airframes around upgraded Su-30s + another squadron, those 21 MiG-29s, some Mirage 2000s to build up Wolfpacks to a full squadron strength + attrition reserves, and more LCAs.

At the end of the day, if Modi really wants to use the AF for dissuasion, he has to invest in them.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Mar 2019 10:02

ldev wrote:
Austin wrote: The next competition for 108 fighter IMHO would be 3 way contest between Gripen , F-16 and Mig-35 .....The Eurofighter , Su-35 and Rafale are just there for RFP sake.
Grifen - in what shape or form is is better than the LCA?
F-16 - no way will the IAF accept it specially after the recent clash with Pakistan despite LM re-naming it F21!!
Mig 35 - the IAF has also had it's fill of maintenance intensive Russian aircraft so they will say nyet to that.

And that brings us back to the Rafale and the IAF will want them in whatever numbers the budget can afford.

Well said. One is a replica of our MWF program, why bother with it? Second, the opponent knows its ins and out better than the IAF and the third, is unproven and likely to be a maintenance hog. Just buy more Rafales, Su-30s, LCAs and begin the Su-30 upgrade program.

Apart from the radar, we already have a lot of stuff for the Su-30 upgrade too in trials. We should pour more funds into that, and if we can't wait for that, even build out a silver bullet 2-3 squadron force equipped with EL/M-2052, I-Derby ER, Elisra pods etc.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Mar 2019 10:20

MKI has its positives, but this part of Rafale the MKi will never achieve. We probably need to order another 36 and LCA MK-1, 2 in nos and towards then get some Su-57 and AMCA's as tip of the spear by late 2020's.

The Rafale is streets ahead of the Su-30MKI with much smaller radar and infra-red signatures, making it harder to detect.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 11 Mar 2019 10:30

^

Combine that with the below mentioned nap-of-the-earth capabilities and you have a potent stealthy platform indeed, something which the ex Chief had referred to as 'secretive' in his earlier interview

It is also capable of real-time generation of 2D and 3D maps for ultra low level flying in 'absolute' blind conditions, which is otherwise well nigh impossible.