VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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JTull
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by JTull »

ks_sachin wrote:
JTull wrote:
Alas, but likely true!

I'm getting concerned about reports of HAL placing orders for more Israeli radar units for Mk1A, with Uttam integration pushed back to last 20-30 aircraft. Only thing improving at HAL are brochures. Otherwise it is business as usual.
HAL cannot take that decision unilaterally. IAF and LRDE have to be in on it especially as the a/c is built to IAF specs.
HAL is not building the Uttam and it is not its job to ensure Uttam is ready.
ToT was completed nearly 4 months ago and HAL is the manufacturing agency.

https://delhidefencereview.com/2022/09/ ... rder-size/
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

So why has the IAF agreed to this?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi »

Prasad wrote:Which MRFA manufacturer country is going to "GIVE YOU" tech?
NOBODY !!!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ragupta »

There is a urgent need for a independent body what works with Stragetic think tanks, review future warfare, Involves domestic industry to standardize on products and technology that can be developed quickly, cheaply and in large quantity, while seeking to still develop uber tech unobtanium.

It should encourage cooperation from Armed forces, think tanks to fund, develop and induct products, it should find use cases for domestically developed products, push for its export, giving it credibility. All the requirement by armed forces must be vetted by this body to involve domestic players in developing and absorb new technology. Such body should enforce induction of Teja, Arjun and domestic products. Will save India tons of time wasted in discussion about unavailable technology.

Funding, private public partnership, timely freezing of specs, start of timely prototype development , test and development facility. it should use the defence budget to create much needed infrastructure to be share with all participants to avoid delay. Development of prototype vehicles for technology development is must.

Testing must be also controlled by this independent body to that the resources are shared optimally, and products inducted based on what is possible now, than what is required and not available.

This is the only way to take away this decision making from failed import pasand decision makers in the armed forces.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

OT

What is the need for any bodies/committees to analyze anything?

Take a very close look at what is happening in Ukraine and let that be your guide.

The US is scrounging the world for old Soviet arms (for a variety of reasons) that can be refurbished and donated to "Ukraine" (which does not exist). The US is actually looking for Soviet tanks from the 1960-70+, and Soviet guns/shells from the same era.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Therefore imagine their KLPD that India is not blindly jumping into their camp !
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Tweet below is in Bahasa (the language of Indonesia). Translated via Twitter's translation service.

Indonesia is Rafale's newest and latest customer.

https://twitter.com/yudisupri_454/statu ... OsJMuXbMoQ ---> Technology Transfer Rafale India: BEL Production T/R Module Radar AESA RBE2. BEL has manufactured a dedicated T/R module for the RBE2 AESA radar under its Rafale India procurement offset commitment. The module manufactured in India was then integrated with the RBE2 radar in France. TOT started at the end of 2017, with several requirements & strict selection related to BEL's capabilities. This includes validating BEL's technical capacity to deliver prototypes, qualifying the various technologies involved in the wiring process, and setting up a dedicated SMC cable production line.

TOT costs money which is certainly not small. Apart from that, it is necessary to understand that TOT looks at the local industry's potential TOT recipients. Can you accept TOT? if not, is it able to improve facilities & resources so that it is then eligible to receive TOT in the future. Without fulfilling the qualifications there will never be a weighty TOT, except as a sweetener to fulfill offset rules. Moreover, there are too many politicians who want an instant process so they can show off, even though the back is just a sticker attached by the nation's children.

Image
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Good achievement. French engineers are picky and quirky - successful collaboration is not easy.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:Good achievement. French engineers are picky and quirky - successful collaboration is not easy.
the above tweet came largely from here;

BEL delivers transmit/receive modules to Thales for Rafale RBE2 radar
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/india/pr ... rbe2-radar
03 Feb 2021
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by JTull »

Does it mean we've now 2 production lines for AESA T/R modules? One for Uttam and one for RBE2.

What does it mean for the underlying chip foundry? Uttam ones are desi. I doubt we're manufacturing RBE2 ones. BEL is probably integrating the modules from sub components.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by RoyG »

JTull wrote:Does it mean we've now 2 production lines for AESA T/R modules? One for Uttam and one for RBE2.

What does it mean for the underlying chip foundry? Uttam ones are desi. I doubt we're manufacturing RBE2 ones. BEL is probably integrating the modules from sub components.
We have 1 production line and 1 assembly line.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/riteshDJT/status/15 ... Udb9J4aV5g ---> A rare picture of IAF Rafale (RB001) with an AT73O multi-bomb rack.

AT730 Info Sheet ----> https://www.rafautgroup.com/skills/at730/

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Rakesh or anyone who knows, Is the Rafale M marinized to resist corrosion like the Jaguar M?
Thanks.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Absolutely Ramana-ji.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/MightyWar3/status/1 ... KK6f61QVUQ ---> IAF Rafale will use Astra Mk1 BVRAAM in 2025. The company Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Dassault Aviation signed an MoU to integrate the Astra Mk1 air-to-air missile into the Rafale fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

https://twitter.com/MightyWar3/status/1 ... KK6f61QVUQ ---> This integration will be completed in 2025. BDL requires source code authorization from Dassault Aviation so that the Rafale's radar and fire control system can synergize with the Astra Mk I BVRAAM missile.

https://twitter.com/MightyWar3/status/1 ... KK6f61QVUQ ---> The Astra Mk I AAM missile is a locally made BVRAAM missile with a firing range of up to 110 km and a speed of Mach 4.5. Currently India is still developing the Astra Mk II and Mk III which have entered the test phase.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Hate to say this but HAL should first integrate Astra with the Tejas Mk1 first as it gives the IAF 40 planes that can add to the Su-30MKI lineup of Astra capable planes.
IAF high command promised this will happen by Jan 26, 2021.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:Absolutely Ramana-ji.
We have a published reference? Its kind of important.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Absolutely Ramana-ji.
We have a published reference? Its kind of important.
Basically all versions of Rafale have corrosion protection and the engine. This is great news.

1) https://www.flightglobal.com/marine-raf ... 50.article
The entire structure of both versions is given full anti-corrosion treatment, as is the Snecma M88 powerplant, easing the production task and ensuring that air force aircraft have the best protection available from the beginning of their service life.

Corrosion Management at Dassault

https://www.sto.nato.int/publications/S ... 303-16.pdf

Shows how they design in the protection.
All variants have also benefited from the Rafale M’s corrosion protection
Link: https://www.keymilitary.com/article/arromanches-iii

Also can read this last one as it shows how Hammer and Scalp performed.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Absolutely Ramana-ji.
We have a published reference? Its kind of important.
From the Dassault website ---> https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... ing-costs/
Based on significant experience in corrosion protection for carrier-based aircraft (SUPER ETENDARD) and maritime patrol aircraft (ATLANTIC 1/ ATLANTIQUE 2), Dassault Aviation has developed new advanced corrosion protection processes which help drive down the cost of maintenance of the Rafale: corrosion issues discovered during maintenance being the perfect “show stopper” which exceeds spending targets and delays the return of aircraft to service in the most unpredictable way.
From the magazine Air International, June 2019 edition, Page 73 states...
The extremely aggressive saline environment encountered on the ship requires additional precautions against corrosion. "At sea, we carry out additional greasing/lubrication and Ardroxing [with the common Ardrox anti-corrosion agent] every week," Patrice explains. "The engines don't require any special care. We just wash them with fresh water during the week after we return to Landivisiau."
Go here to know more about Ardrox ---> https://www.chemetall.com/Products/Trad ... /index.jsp
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Basically all versions of Rafale have corrosion protection and the engine. This is great news.
All three Rafale variants are identical to each other, barring the strengthened undercarriage and tail hook of the Marine variant.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ashishvikas »

France’s Rafale jets are frontrunner in race for Indian Navy contract

https://theprint.in/defence/frances-raf ... t/1252690/
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Twitter handles report 81 Rafales ordered including 27 naval versions.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Twitter handles report 81 Rafales ordered including 27 naval versions.
I will open a new Rafale thread, if and when a repeat order of Rafales come through. Till then, let us continue with this one.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by VKumar »

Man, after exploring all alternatives will do the logical.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

VKumar wrote:Man, after exploring all alternatives will do the logical.
Thats the right way to ensure there are no rabbit holes.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

If Rafale M is indeed the selection in the MRCBF contest, then we will see a faster movement in the MRFA contest ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&start=2840#p2569743
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Recent French FM and DM visits were not for just tourism ...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:Recent French FM and DM visits were not for just tourism ...
Well said...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by JTull »

Marine Rafale scores over American Super Hornet in Navy-deal
The maritime version of French fighter Rafale has emerged as the frontrunner over the American F/A-18 Super Hornet for the mega multi-billion contract to supply 26 jets for Indian aircraft carriers.
The Navy has now submitted a detailed report on these two fighters, which were trial-evaluated earlier this year, to the defence ministry to take a final decision on what will eventually be a government-to-government deal, defence sources told TOI on Wednesday.
As per the report, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale-M has been found to be “more suitable in meeting the operational requirements and criteria” of the Navy compared to the Boeing-manufactured F/A-18, the sources added.Both the fighters underwent operational demonstration trials to assess their “suitability and capability” at the shore-based test facility (SBTF) at INS Hansa in Goa, which has a ski-jump to resemble an aircraft carrier’s deck, earlier this year, as was then reported by TOI.

The French fighter, in any case, had a head start on logistical and other grounds given that the IAF has already inducted 36 Rafales under the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked with France in September 2016. With the Modi government dismissing all allegations of corruption in the deal, IAF now has a Rafale squadron each deployed at Ambala and Hasimara.
Similarly, Rafales will figure prominently in the IAF’s long-standing quest to acqu- ire additional 4.5-generation fighters with “some fifth-generation capabilities”. These numbers could vary from 57 to 114 fighters, with the bulk of them to be produced in India. The IAF is down to just 30-31 fighter squadrons when at least 42 are needed for the threat posed by China and Pakistan.

The Navy, on its part, has been fast-tracking its case for the 26 carrier-based fighters especially after commissioning of the country’s first indigenous aircraft carrier, the 45,000-tonne INS Vikrant, on September 2.

Navy chief Admiral R Hari Kumar had last week said that the 26 fighters were an “interim solution” till the indigenous twin-engine deck-based fighter (TEDBF) being developed by the DRDO was ready. It will take the TEDBF at least a decade to become fully operational.


As of now, the Navy is left with 40 of the 45 MiG-29Ks inducted from Russia at a cost of $2 billion from 2009-10 onwards to operate from the deck of the 44,500-tonne aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, which cost another $2.3 billion. The operational serviceability of the MiG-29K fighters has been a major problem for some years.

INS Vikrant will become fully combat-ready after the MiG-29Ks complete crucial flight trials from her sprawling deck, and she is equipped with all her high-tech weapons like the Israeli-origin 80-km range Barak-8 surface-to-air missile systems, by around mid-2023, as reported by TOI earlier.


The Navy, on its part, has been fast-tracking its case for the 26 carrier-based fighters especially after commissioning of the country’s first indigenous aircraft carrier, the 45,000-tonne INS Vikrant, on Sept 2.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:If Rafale M is indeed the selection in the MRCBF contest, then we will see a faster movement in the MRFA contest ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&start=2840#p2569743
Despite the nonstop F18 push and seeming endless support for it from Indian defence fanboys

This was always the most obvious outcome. I still am not overly convinced MRCBF goes anywhere and eventually the IN will be forced to shelve it as they have with most of the heavy capital projects of theirs from the last 5 years.


IAF needs to be given a shake and told to accept reality.


IF (huge if) IN is to order Rafales then it makes perfect sense to club this with another 2-3 squadrons for IAF, use economies of scale, get a good price and close the book forever on imported fighters for India
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

It's combined order of 81 Rafales.
54 F4 and 27 RafaleM.
The second IAF tranche is three squadrons.
No MRFA bokwas.
VRC probably looking for a kullad to drown sorrows or himself.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by JTull »

With extra billion or so already spent on India specific requirements, this was the only possible outcome of IN contest. We've got RBE2 AESA T/R production as part of offset deal. Haven't seen a penny being spent by any US supplier to fulfil offset obligations.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by NRao »

ramana wrote: 54 F4 and 27 RafaleM.
If I am not mistaken both the Rafale and Rafale M are/will be F4 (standard).
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:IF (huge if) IN is to order Rafales then it makes perfect sense to club this with another 2-3 squadrons for IAF, use economies of scale, get a good price and close the book forever on imported fighters for India
This is what is going to happen, assuming the Rafale M is ultimately chosen and the order is lumped along with an IAF order.

The IAF wants more Rafales, the Navy appears to have selected the Rafale Marine, the MoD prefers an assembly line to purchase any new fighters and the OEM wants a minimum 100 aircraft order to transfer any assembly line.

The only way to satisfy all the stakeholders above is to have the MRFA/MRCBF be the same.

There is no money for three separate programs i.e. 114 MRFA + 26/57 MRCBF + investment for turbofan development.

Lump it all together and award the contract to one OEM. Easier said than done, but it appears that is where the GOI is headed.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

NRao wrote:
ramana wrote: 54 F4 and 27 RafaleM.
If I am not mistaken both the Rafale and Rafale M are/will be F4 (standard).
It will be the Rafale F4 variant.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by NRao »

Rakesh wrote:
NRao wrote:
If I am not mistaken both the Rafale and Rafale M are/will be F4 (standard).
It will be the Rafale F4 variant.
Both the IAF and IN Rafales will be F4, right?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

NRao wrote:
Rakesh wrote: It will be the Rafale F4 variant.
Both the IAF and IN Rafales will be F4, right?
Yes. But that is assuming the news piece about the Rafale Marine is true. As of now, we are making assumptions based on a news article. Nothing is confirmed by the MoD or Dassault. There are two F4 variants. The first (F4.1) was just introduced this year with flight tests continuing and the second (F4.2) will enter service in 2027.

Reportedly, the French Navy will be loaning around 4+ airframes to the Indian Navy on an immediate basis...till the first batch of Rafale Ms for the Indian Navy arrive. But there are only around 40+ Rafale Marine airframes and the Charles De Gaulle reportedly needs every single one of them. So will have to wait and see.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Roop »

ramana wrote:Twitter handles report 81 Rafales ordered including 27 naval versions.
Ramanaji, aapke muh me ghee-shakkar !! (or at least, in the muh of whoever did that tweet). 8)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Oh pls. pls. let it be true and announced ASAP. The B-J padyatra is getting rather boring.. :mrgreen:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

NRao wrote:
ramana wrote: 54 F4 and 27 RafaleM.
If I am not mistaken both the Rafale and Rafale M are/will be F4 (standard).
Probably an indianized version of F4.1 or F4.2

For one, better to wait for official news. For another, the F4 standard comes in two increments - F4.1 rolled out last year and being tested, and the full F4 standard that is expected to be certified in 2024/2025 and deployed on planes delivered 2027 onwards . For another, many of the improvements would conflict/overlap with India's expensively paid enhancements and others might be for features not available to or not purchased for India. India's enhancements are roughly equal to F3R, but actually may differ in specific situations. This means India gets to decide on case to case basis whether to continue with the Indian standard (and standardize), adopt the F4.1 standard, buy 4.2 standard and wait or backfit them, or pay more to integrate ISE to the new standards.

https://theaviationist.com/2021/06/01/r ... -standard/

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... t-aircraft

eg India paid for engine enhancements for ladakh/cold and high environment. Some F4 version will include a new engine ECU. Does it conflict, does the ISE get carried forward with the new ECU, does it require work to be done, who the heck knows.

eg. Helmet mounted sights. India opted to integrate a different helmet mounted sight. Is it worth it to switch to the Scorpion HMS in F4 standard and if so when. Similarly israeli displays, improved IRST etc. which differ from the F3R/F4 equipment

Some things like better radar, improved maintenance diagnostics, AIML, displays, etc will be a no brainer when it comes. Others might be adopted along with the standard whether or not India actually uses them at the time - eg Mica NG missile will be available only post 2030. Or the 1000 kg version of the HAMMER missile.
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