VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Austin
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

eklavya wrote:
Philip wrote:The IAF saw a golden opportunity to obtain a new toy made in the West,which if one looked carefully wasn't needed at all becos we already had 270+ MKis on order.These had proven to be the supreme masters in the air in any continent barring the F-22.That too avaiolable at less than half the price of a single Rafale!
The Rafale provides capabilities that go significantly beyond the Su 30 MKI, which undoubtedly is also a great fighter.

The critics of the Rafale deal are undermining national security.
I doubt that underlying part and with Super MKI upgrade underworks Rafale will get outclassed if not outflanked.

Having said that Rafale is a good deal and some of what Ajai Shukla says in his 3rd article that Nuclear detterent on Airbased platform is not needed etc he needs to check countries who are P-5 and have air based nuclear deterrent and this issue has been discussed till death. Also his take on F-16 and F-18 etc etc both lost MMRCA competition so presenting them as possible winner speaks of pre-set mindset and he other than any body should know US wont allow to hardwire its aircraft for Strategic Role.

I have seen Ajai on TV shows debate on Rafale etc he certainly is not presenting an unbiased fact and has some political driven agenda .

They should buy 80 more Rafale and have full 5 Squadron of this type and close the twin engine deal for Logistics and Capability to operating single type in larger numbers
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by eklavya »

^^^^
A theoretical fighter with some theoretical capabilities will undoubtedly outclass and outflank anything that is real and tangible. But war is fought in the real world.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

eklavya wrote:^^^^
A theoretical fighter with some theoretical capabilities will undoubtedly outclass and outflank anything that is real and tangible. But war is fought in the real world.
Even with current capability MKI in Mark 3 model is a good match for Rafale much like Super MKI ........In all exercise so far with IAF MKI has provide its worth
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Philip »

We were officially told that the Rafale second batch would come in at approx. "30%" less than the price for the first lot.That makes it around $140M a pop.This makes it twice as expensive as one MKI,whose capabilities (BMos,etc.) are significantly more than the Rafale! The Rafale has no TVC engines,which the MKI has shown at exercises and air shows,immense air combat capability,plus a far greater range and payload too. In fact the SS upgrade ,with even more capability,even if it cost around $15-20M per aircraft a high figure since the upgrade work will be dome in India,would still be around $50M less than the Raffy.There is simply NO justifiable reason to buy the Rafale at these exorbitant prices when what the IAF really needs is a cost-effective fighter in large numbers to replace MIG-21s and MIG-27s.

To think that the Rafale will be our air element of the nuclear triad is hilarious too.How many times must it be refuelled to reach Beijing or Shaanghai may one ask,and what N-munitions can it carry? What was it that was just said about the MKI after the Bmos-A test? "NO part of Pak is now safe from our reach..." So why then do we need a Rafale when an MKI equipped with BMos- can do the biz,which missile the Rafale can't carry at all!
Point 2,what N-tipped missile is the Raffy supposed to carry into Pak,because other than the BMos,there's nothing in the cupboard,barring the recently tested glide bombs-meant for runway demolition,or is the Raffy going to be "toss-bombing" Pak with nuclear bouncers like the Jags? :rotfl:

If you look at another medium sized fighter (MIG-35) with TVC air combat capabilities according to western experts unmatchable in WVR,v.similar capabilities in the strike mode,the cost of which will be around $45+M max,a pop,you would be able to get 3 such aircraft for the price of just one Rafale. If you delve deeper and look at the LCA at just $25M a pop,you would get around 5-6 aircraft instead! Even the Gripen at around $70M a pop would give us two for the price of one Raffy.The cost simply does not justify the acquisition.To repeat what one wit said,the wizards of the IAF "are acquiring 3 different aircraft (LCA,Rafale,SEF) to replace just one,the MIG-21!"

PS: Ck this piece on the deadliest missiles in service.Bmos and Klub mentioned,though the Klub variant,the Kalibir with its 200km range not mentioned as this was before the Syrian demos.BMos-A has 500KM range says this piece.
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/bul ... time-12411

SCALP,which is being touted for the Raffy is no comparison with BMos,being subsonic and has a range of only 250KM+Incl. dev. costs,it is around $3.3M a piece. In fact with Nirbhay on the horizon,being successfully tested days ago,its range of around 1500+ km make sit far superior to SCALP yet again! So why on earth should e buy at huge expense a friang missile when we have two being built at home with huge indigenous content and far better performance?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by eklavya »

Austin wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^
A theoretical fighter with some theoretical capabilities will undoubtedly outclass and outflank anything that is real and tangible. But war is fought in the real world.
Even with current capability MKI in Mark 3 model is a good match for Rafale much like Super MKI ........In all exercise so far with IAF MKI has provide its worth
MKI can match the Rafale’s AESA+Meteor+RCS? Only people whose lives don’t depend on it would say say such things.

Anyway, align yourself with the idiot in 10 Janpath if you must.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Philip »

SS's will come with AESA,new engines,avionics,BMos plus new AAMs too and later on BMos-H! How anyone can compare poor subsonic SCALP with a meagre 250km range to a mach 3.0 BMos with a 500+KM range or even Nirbhay with a 1500km range beats me.great maths displayed above folks. Rafale's RCS? Is is supposed to be a stealth fighter? Never saw that missile incoming! Anyway,here's a western analysis of the MKI vs the 2 Eurofarters.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/13678/ ... hl8a9KWaM8
Is the Su-30MKI Superior to the Eurofighter And Rafale?
Defenseworld Analysis02:39 PM, August 7, 2015

Su-30mki beats Typhoon in combat exercises with 12-0 scoreline.jpg Su-30mki beats Typhoon in Indradhanush combat exercises with 12-0 scoreline- A +
In the recently concluded international air combat exercises featuring the Indian Air Force’ (IAF) Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters and British Royal Air Force Typhoon jets, the Su-30MKI outsmarted the Eurofighter Typhoon 12-0 in the Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.
If the Su-30MKI has a tactical advantage over the Typhoon, the same advantage should extend over the Rafale as well, both of which are more expensive than the Russian origin aircraft.

Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale can be closely compared. Both the fighters have nearly identical size, power and performance. Both are twin-engined Eurocanards. Both aircraft are capable of carrying advanced Electronic warfare suites equipped with jammers and decoys. Both can deliver ALCMs like storm shadow, AASM or Taurus KEPD 350. Both have roughly the same IR and radar signature. Both are equipped with AESA radars and IRSTs. Both have roughly the same speed and are capable of mounting ramjet powered MBDA Meteor.
The Sukhoi-30 MKI mounts a Vympel R-77M BVR AAM missile and aNIIP NO11M Bars (Panther) integrated radar sighting system. The Russian origin plane is capable of performing all tactical tasks of the Su-24 Fencer deep interdiction tactical bomber and the Su-27 Flanker A/B/C air superiority fighter while having around twice the combat range and atleast 2.5 times the combat effectiveness.

The Su-30MKI is powered by the Al-31FP (P for povorotnoye meaning "movable") engine. The Su-30MKI has a large range of 3,000 km without refueling which allows for autonomous operations that require high endurance.
It has an inbuilt In-Flight Refueling (IFR) probe that is retracted beside the cockpit during normal operation. The aircraft can carry air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles, guided bombs, unguided projectiles, APK datalink pods, ELTA RF jammers etc.
“In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights. The Su-30's advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF's pilots in close-combat maneuvering,” NDTV quoted Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises as saying.
“Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars in training mode, which meant that actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible,” he said.

So does it mean that the Su-30MKI is superior to the two leading European fighters? Experts are divided on this as the Russian aircraft won in a dogfight, a type of aerial warfare which went out of practice in the 80s with network-centric warfare now in vogue.
Both Eurofighter and Dassault were contenders for the Indian Air Force MMRCA program. Dassault Rafale won the contract but later with technology transfer and cost escalation issues, India chose to reduce the number of aircraft from 126 to 36 this April.
PS:The MKIs are described in many reports by experts as being virtual "mini-AWACS" with their networking ability.Even if one stretches the imagination and call it a draw,the price of the MKI at half that of a Raffy makes it an act of incredible stupidity to choose it over an MKI especially now that the BMos-A test has been a roaring success.
Last edited by Philip on 25 Nov 2017 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by eklavya »

Philip wrote: Rafale's RCS? Is is supposed to be a stealth fighter? Never sw that missile incoming!
No comrade. The Rafale kills with its looks alone.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by eklavya »

Super Sukhoi:

Image

Rafale:

Image

Over and out. :)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Philip »

Those are the SS' decoys! :rotfl: Enemy pilots will be blinded by those WMDs, "weapons of mass distraction what?!" :rotfl:

Here is the real deal folks,or so the report says...
http://www.defencenews.in/article/India ... ets-251048
Indian Defence News [View All Articles]
India's Super Sukhoi's will technologically out-match China's latest Su-35 jets
Sunday, March 19, 2017
By: Defence News

India's fleet of Su-30 MKI Fighter Jets are finally undergoing the Super Sukhoi Upgrade Programme. The IAF would have almost 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs by 2017 and the IAF Headquarters plans all them to be upgraded to the near fifth generation level and the IAF has decided to name them as Super Sukhoi.

For a long time, the only thing we knew about the proposed Su-30MKI upgrades was the name of the program: Sukhoi Super 30. There was no information about the technical specifications, timeline or costs. Commentators often confuse Sukhoi Super 30 with another upgrade program that aims to integrate the Su-30MKI with the air-launched version of the BrahMos anti-ship cruise missile.

These are in fact two independent and unrelated projects. BrahMos will be installed on only 40-42 planes. The program has already reached a fairly advanced phase of flight-testing to ascertain mechanical compatibility of the BrahMos-A air-launched missile with a reinforced Su-30MKI airframe. Live Missile launches have already commenced. The Sukhoi Super 30 program, on the other hand, will be rolled out to the entire Indian fleet of Su-30MKI fighters; it has yet to begin in earnest, and up until recently, there was very little information about it in the public domain.

The estimated cost of the Super Sukhoi-30 program is $10-12 billion.

China's induction of the Su-35 Jet ::

Sukhoi's Su-35S is a 4++ generation aircraft that employs fifth generation technologies. It is superior to most fourth generation fighters that are currently being developed worldwide.

The Su-35S is armed with the newest types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types.

The core of the Su-35S armament is a new radar control system with a phased antenna array (Irbis-E). It features unique capabilities in terms of the target detection range.

There is a pressing need for speeding up the Su-30MKI program in order to restore the Indian Air Force’s technological superiority over the Chinese. Essentially, India needs to pull off the same trick it did in the mid-1990s, when it responded to China’s mass procurement of Su-27/30 fighters with the original Su-30MKI program. Two decades on, India needs to respond to China’s Su-35 and J-31 jets with the Sukhoi Super 30.

India's Super Sukhoi's ::

The Super Sukhoi's will be kitted with Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. The X band radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode and engage six targets simultaneously in attack mode. AESA technology offers improved performance and reliability compared with traditional mechanically scanned array radars.

During MMRCA trials the Zhuk-AE AESA radar demonstrated significant capabilities, including ground-mapping modes and the ability to detect and track aerial targets. The upgrade will also involve equipping all jets with stand-off missiles with a range of 300 km.

In Super Sukhoi, the electronics will be upgraded heavily and the Super Sukhois will carry more weapon loads compared to the Su-35.
Super Sukhoi will have same engine as in FGFA. It will enhance the life cycle of SU-30MKIs. However, first aircraft will be upgraded in two years time.

Super Sukhoi's deep penetrating Brahmos Missile will make it the deadliest fighter jet on the planet after the F-22 Raptor and No. 1 in dogfight capabilities and maneuverability. :mrgreen:

There are basic differences between Indian and Chinese SU-30s as the Power plants do not match. On other counts also the Indian Su-30 is far more superior than the Chinese SU-30s which compelled them to opt for the Su-35. But India has again maintained its Air Force's technological superiority by choosing to upgrade all of its 272 Su-30 MKI's to Super Sukhoi Standards than make them virtually 5th generation fighter jets.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Misraji »

Guys, come on. It's the "VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions" thread. Why must every thread degenerate into a discussion of Russian hardware?... :(
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Indranil »

Philip wrote:Those are the SS' decoys! :rotfl: Enemy pilots will be blinded by those WMDs, "weapons of mass distraction what?!" :rotfl:

Here is the real deal folks,or so the report says...
http://www.defencenews.in/article/India ... ets-251048
Indian Defence News [View All Articles]
India's Super Sukhoi's will technologically out-match China's latest Su-35 jets
Philip sir, what is this doing here?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Katare »

Austin wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^
A theoretical fighter with some theoretical capabilities will undoubtedly outclass and outflank anything that is real and tangible. But war is fought in the real world.
Even with current capability MKI in Mark 3 model is a good match for Rafale much like Super MKI ........In all exercise so far with IAF MKI has provide its worth
Any data?

Also MKI cost significantly more in capital cost than Rafeal. The last deal was for ov r $100M/aircraft in 2012. A new deal with inflation, AESA and current gen avionics could make it 150%more expensive than Rafale which carry as much load as gigantic MKIs. MKI was a great deal in 1995, in 2020 IAF n eds LCA and J35!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kashi »

Katare wrote:Also MKI cost significantly more in capital cost than Rafeal. The last deal was for ov r $100M/aircraft in 2012.
Can you link the source please? All accounts that I have come across variously claim numbers between $55 million and $75 million- in 2014!

Where did you get the figure of $100 million from?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

Katare wrote:
Austin wrote:
Even with current capability MKI in Mark 3 model is a good match for Rafale much like Super MKI ........In all exercise so far with IAF MKI has provide its worth
Any data?

Also MKI cost significantly more in capital cost than Rafeal. The last deal was for ov r $100M/aircraft in 2012. A new deal with inflation, AESA and current gen avionics could make it 150%more expensive than Rafale which carry as much load as gigantic MKIs. MKI was a great deal in 1995, in 2020 IAF n eds LCA and J35!
HAl made MKI cost $60 million as per MOD Parrikar statement in parliament

If UAE example is to be taken F-35 is not even allowed to integrate with other system
Last edited by Austin on 26 Nov 2017 15:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ce-408269/
The air force received its first overhauled Su-30MKI (SB 027) from HAL in January. The overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is the first to be set up for the type globally. HAL chairman RK Tyagi says the airframer will now act as “a single window original equipment manufacturer for supporting the Su-30MKI fleet”.

“We are confident of improving the serviceability and ramping up capacity,” he adds.

New Su-30MKI’s delivered by HAL are estimated to cost $60 million each, with a comprehensive 14 year/1,500h overhaul costing the operator just under $20 million. With a second overhauled fighter now due for delivery, HAL says it can overhaul 15 aircraft annually at Nashik. Presently the total technical life of an Su-30MKI is 6,000h/25 years, and time between overhaul for its NPO Saturn AL31FP engines is 1,000h, with a total technical life of 2,000h. The time between overhaul and total technical life for the thrust vector nozzle is half of that of the engine.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Katare »

Last deal for 42 Su30 MKI was signed for $4.1 billion. This is after buying and manufacturing more than 200 of them. Don’t trust fanboy’s entries at wikipedia for cost.

Do you have the Parrikar’s parliament reply link?

In above article DDM is estimating the cost, they are not directly quoting the HAL chairman.

MKI is an expensive to buy and even more expensive to operate aircraft. I agree it’s great aircraft with amazing endurance but it should not be compared with Rafale or F35 which are a lit more modern designs.
Last edited by Katare on 26 Nov 2017 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kashi »

Please cite official sources or as close as it gets when quoting figures for aircraft purchases. Was the deal finally signed? Was it regular MKIs or the so-called Super 30s?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

This is Rafale thread NOT Su-30MKI thread. Please.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

Katare wrote:Do you have the Parrikar’s parliament reply link?
Is it difficult for you to google
Mr Parrikar said in terms of avionics,electronics and fire-power, Tejas was as good as Rafale, which India intends to buy from France. Giving an idea of Rafale's price, the Defence Minister, in an interview to All India Radio, said one fighter may cost India in the range of Rs 700 to 750 crore while a Su-30 cost is about Rs 475 crore, Compare to these planes India's Tejas is in the range of Rs 200 to 250 crore only. " Our Tejas is having the same qualities as Rafale does. Although Tejas is in light weight category, with its range also half compared to Rafale, but in terms avionics, electronics and fire power it is no less to Rafale," said Mr Parrikar.
Read more at: http://www.royalbulletin.in/you-get-a-s ... -parrikar/
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale jets row: With two hostile neighbours, India cannot afford to waste time on technicalities of deal
http://www.firstpost.com/india/rafale-j ... 27077.html

The purchase of 36 Rafale jets from France is mired in such deep controversy that it's more confusing than enlightening. Perhaps what is needed is, to remove the element of overwhelming expertise and fiscal semantics and discuss this in layman's terms. Let's take the cost of the aircraft. It is complex and predicated to a confidentiality clause on both sides. We'll never know what was paid for it, however, there are a dozen figures out there. Depending on who is doing the calculations, the cost of Rafale jets, for the most part, is lower than what Egypt and Qatar paid for their aircraft. Then there is the mind numbing procedural nomenclature. Ajai Shukla wrote for Business Standard, "Both (Nirmala) Sitharaman and (Manohar) Parrikar point out the defence procurement procedure (DPP) permits regular procurement procedures to be bypassed on strategic grounds. Indeed, Paragraph 71 of the DPP caters for 'occasions when procurements would have to be done from friendly foreign countries which may be necessitated due to geo-strategic advantages that are likely to accrue to our country."

However, Paragraph 71 also stipulates that this requires prior clearance. It says, "Such procurements will be done based on an Inter-Governmental Agreement after clearance from Competent Financial Authority (CFA)", in this case the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). Further, Paragraph 73 of the DPP says, "Decisions on all such (strategic) acquisitions would be taken by the CCS on the recommendations of the Defence Procurement Board (DPB)". No ministry or Cabinet body was consulted before Prime Minister Narendra Modi committed India to the Rafale purchase on 10 April, 2015. The CCS sanction was processed and obtained only later. The prime minister didn’t follow procedure. After which, there comes the questions. Why didn't the NDA do the deal? What was the UPA doing? Why did the prime minister make a unilateral announcement in Paris and stun his team? What's the deal with Reliance Defense? What took the IAF five years of trials to okay the choice when a posse of air marshals with wings on their chests should have worked it out by just reading Jane's All the World's Aircraft. It is a never ending gobbledygook. What we should be asking is, did we need these aircraft? The answer to that question is, yes. Why are we wasting time on these technicalities? We are 11 squadrons short, our MIG 21s (flying coffins) fell away years ago and the call to add muscle now is shrill and filled with anxiety.

I bought a flight ticket for Rs 11,000 in early November. I booked the same route for Rs 28,000 now because it is the new year week. This is known as good business practice. We all understand that and perhaps this is exactly what Modi intended to do: get the aircraft because we need the aircraft. We have two hostile neighbours with planes in the sky and we cannot afford to sit on our hands. If there is any drawback, it is having to wait for these 36 fighters till 2019 rather than being able to get them now because that's how long it takes to get them manufactured. Now, if some aviation authority recommended that we get lease fighter aircraft in the interim I'd listen regardless of the cost. Look at the ground reality. Of the sanctioned 42 squadrons (years ago) we have only 32 at present, of which some are flying obsolete planes or are grounded for spares as with the MiG 23s and MiG 27s. Does this paint a fair of a sorry mess? So, with our reputation for hemming and hawing and even frequently asking for kickbacks (rather shamelessly), there is not much excitement on the global market for an Indian bid. Give Modi a pass on this one. If it actually turns out that we did paid less than other customers, all this becomes moot. Still, in layman terms, shouldn't we rather sleep well at night knowing our pilots are safe and so are we?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kashi »

X-post from LCA thread
SiddharthS wrote:Have much to say about that but will restrict myself.
Isn't it obvious, the thing costs €138.9 or $165.75 million - that is the price of three SU-30MKIs.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2017/11/ ... -cost.html
If we go by Austin's posts above quoting Parrikar when he was the RM,

Rafale as purchased by India costs between 700-750 crore INR ~$108-116 million)

Sukhoi costs 475 Crore ~ $73-74 million.

Price of one and half Su-30s perhaps, definitely not three times.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Indranil »

I like Ajai Shukla. I really do. But these confusions are unnecessary. The Rafales are expensive birds. Who did not know this?

1. Dassault did not reveal its real cost and when it did, IAF/GoI did not say this is a violation of the rules of the competition in letter and/or spirit. Unless, you abide we are going to go back to L2. (On this, I agree with Shukla)
2. There is a mismatch between what IAF wants to buy and what the country can (or is willing) to pay. (On this, I agree with Shukla)
3. Did this govt. pay more than UPA? Absolutely not! (On this, I disagree with Shukla)

And all this means that there will not be the other two squadrons of Rafale which makes a lot of sense. The silver lining is that hopefully, the govt. will develop cold feet on the SEF.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

IR, it makes perfect sense to go in for more Rafale squadrons (at least two more). Silence the Congress criticism or otherwise let them come up with hard evidence that the BJP Govt actually did something wrong. All evidence so far is only heresay and theories.

On another note - I could be wrong - but I think this Rafale criticism is coming from the SEF lobby. The Congress is only a mouthpiece. Kill the Rafale deal and give further weight for a SE fighter. Lot of rona-dhona on BRF when downselect happened on April 27, 2011 in the first MMRCA downselect.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Katare »

Austin wrote:
Katare wrote:Do you have the Parrikar’s parliament reply link?
Is it difficult for you to google
Mr Parrikar said in terms of avionics,electronics and fire-power, Tejas was as good as Rafale, which India intends to buy from France. Giving an idea of Rafale's price, the Defence Minister, in an interview to All India Radio, said one fighter may cost India in the range of Rs 700 to 750 crore while a Su-30 cost is about Rs 475 crore, Compare to these planes India's Tejas is in the range of Rs 200 to 250 crore only. " Our Tejas is having the same qualities as Rafale does. Although Tejas is in light weight category, with its range also half compared to Rafale, but in terms avionics, electronics and fire power it is no less to Rafale," said Mr Parrikar.
Read more at: http://www.royalbulletin.in/you-get-a-s ... -parrikar/
Rafale cost - $115 M In 2017 (Rs750 Corer)
MKI Cost - $75M in -2003/5, $100 M in 2012

What would it cost today - $125M ?
What would it cost if upgraded to contemporary levels- $150M to $200M is my guess! We would only know if we decide to buy 40 more :mrgreen:

One more data point for reference- first 3 Kirvaks costed us $1 Billion, today the upgraded version is being offered for $1billion a pop. Trippling of the cost for upgraded frigate so would it be same for MKI? May be double....no one knows.

The point is, comparing the price india paid for 36 Rafael in 2017 with what India paid for (and helped develop) 272 MKI deal, spread out over 20+years in 4 separate contracts, is not going to give us apple to apple comparison.

French equipment are expensive everyone knows it but the myth of Russian equipment being cheap never goes away, no matter how many times it is debunked.

Another data point is the IAF helo contracts, iirc, were lost by Russians to US companies on cost not technical grounds.

A former Indian air chief has said on record (check you tube) that the German air cheif visiting India had told him that since you (IAF) are still flying Mig29s this means you are way more richer than I am. We (Germany) simply could not afford to keep those things flying. They cost an arm and a leg to maintain.

This is the reason IAF does not blink in paying top dollars for Rafale or $50mil a pop for Mirage upgrades.

As per shukla’s article - Egypt and Quater paid $207m and $267M/Rafale. Anywho the damm thing is expensive, hope we don’t buy too many of these.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

MKI cost is $60 million dont you understand even simple math ?

HAL made MKI cost 475 crore ~ $60 million , Tejas ~ $ 32 Million [ 250 crore ] and Rafale ~ $94 million [ 750 crore] that is official figure from MOD Parrikar


The cost of MKI built by HAL from Indian sources Raw material also takes into account the Lic Production , Assembly Infra and TOT cost that has been absorbed into MKI program so far , so goes for Tejas too.

I am deliberately making it bold and red so that it is easy to understand what Parikar quoted as figures for each type. No need for FUD on MKI cost and cost of Tejas and Rafale period !
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Indranil »

Calm down my friend.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Austin wrote:MKI cost is $60 million dont you understand even simple math ?

HAL made MKI cost 475 crore ~ $60 million , Tejas ~ $ 32 Million [ 250 crore ] and Rafale ~ $94 million [ 750 crore] that is official figure from MOD Parrikar


The cost of MKI built by HAL from Indian sources Raw material also takes into account the Lic Production , Assembly Infra and TOT cost that has been absorbed into MKI program so far , so goes for Tejas too.

I am deliberately making it bold and red so that it is easy to understand what Parikar quoted as figures for each type. No need for FUD on MKI cost and cost of Tejas and Rafale period !
I wonder what the cpfh for the two fighters does to the tco though. And then we need to consider the mlu cost as well and we all know how pricey the French are when it comes to mlus. The mirage is a fine example. My guess is, overall mki would be very clearly cheaper as MP points out.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

MOD can buy 3 Tejas at cost of 1 Rafale and 3 MKI at cost of 3 Rafale and still save money ...... this is even excluding things like No TOT , No Local production of spares or components much less aircraft.

So nothing gets absorbed by Indian Industry all MOD does is just outright purchase and then over that $94 million which comes to ~ $ 3.4 billion for 36 Rafale , We pay 50 % more for offset for Indian Industry and more money for PBL type arrangement to get more than 70 % of uptimes.

Total Rafale Deal $ 9.2 billion , Cost of 36 aircraft ~ $ 3.4 billion [ $94 million each ] .......We end up paying $ 5.8 billion just for Offset ,Infra , Weapons and PBL type arrangement for 5 years
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

I simply cannot understand this beating of chest about the prices for this particular aircraft. The deal has been signed. Clearly the government is behind the IAF and supports and has confidence in the IAF evaluations and decision making process...they see it a necessary weapon to augment national interests...and are overseeing its induction into the force. By this, they do have the necessary monitory means to get it. If the platform costs more then there are clear reasons for it...maybe we are not fully aware of its capabilities as we are mere civilians and dont hold high positions in government offices involved in this matter. I got to know somewhere that rafale body is composed of a mixture of composite materials as well as titanium alloys being used. No doubt then machines will cost more. Also, the quality of the workmanship in making these aircraft also comes into play.

Quite frankly this chatter about numbers being repeatedly shared of other aircraft and rafale is getting on my nerves.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Philip »

When the cost has to be paid by the taxpayer not you!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kashi »

Philip wrote:When the cost has to be paid by the taxpayer not you!
Why do you assume he's not a taxpayer?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Katare »

Austin wrote:MKI cost is $60 million dont you understand even simple math ?

HAL made MKI cost 475 crore ~ $60 million , Tejas ~ $ 32 Million [ 250 crore ] and Rafale ~ $94 million [ 750 crore] that is official figure from MOD Parrikar


The cost of MKI built by HAL from Indian sources Raw material also takes into account the Lic Production , Assembly Infra and TOT cost that has been absorbed into MKI program so far , so goes for Tejas too.

I am deliberately making it bold and red so that it is easy to understand what Parikar quoted as figures for each type. No need for FUD on MKI cost and cost of Tejas and Rafale period !
My friend writing it in bold Red would not make it correct. What currency conversion rate are you using? Today a dollar buys Rs 64.48

MKI
475/65= ~$75M (numbers that you quoted)
$4.1 Billion/42 = ~$100M for 2012 deal.

LCA = ~$40M
Rafael = $96M for aircraft + other avionics added makes it $115M/aircraft

Let's get the facts right. Pariker never said nothing about $60M Su30 MKI.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

IAF’s 36 Rafales: What’s the noise about?
http://www.asianage.com/opinion/oped/28 ... about.html

The Indian Air Force was hoping for a minimum of 80 Dassault Rafale fighters, but the Narendra Modi government has kept the initial order down to 36 fighters in a flyaway condition for 7.8 billion euros. Or $9.13 billion (@ 1 euro=$1.17). This gave rise to the calculation we were buying the fighters for Rs 1,600 crores each. In the run-up to the deal, then defence minister Manohar Parrikar muddied the waters a bit by making off-the-cuff comments about the high cost of Rafale compared to the IAF’s mainstay SU-30 MKI. I don’t think there is any issue about the quality of the Rafale, unless Ram Jethmalani has a view on it, like he had on the Bofors FH-77 howitzer.

The public, quite rightly too, believes all weapons purchases by the government involve murky transactions and huge payoffs. This has been our well-beaten track record. The Modi government too is a government of politicians. The main offset contractor is Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence Ltd. According to the ministry of company affairs, Reliance Defence Ltd was registered on March 28, 2015. On April 11, 2015 it became the main partner to ensure the 50 per cent offset clause under which Dassault and other French parties will invest half the contract value back in the country. Government officials insist 74 per cent of offsets will be exported, earning India 3 billion euros in the next seven years. Incidentally, Anil Ambani’s flagship company, Reliance Communications Ltd (RCom), just defaulted on a major foreign loan and its future ability to fulfil its Rafale offsets commitment should now be in doubt. The defaulted 2020 notes issued by RCom, once the country’s second-largest wireless operator, were trading at a record low of about 35.6 cents on the dollar in Hong Kong. The company’s shares slid 3.3 per cent to an all-time low of Rs 11.55. Yet Reliance Defence is gung-ho about fulfilling its Rafale-related obligations.

There is much noise about the huge costs at which the 36 Rafales have been contracted for. The comparable costs of the 126 and 36 deals can only be read when all costs are factored in. The cost of the new deal for 36 Rafales is 3.42 billion euros as the cost of bare planes; 1.8 billion euros for associated supplies for infrastructure and support; 1.7 billion euros for India-specific changes to the plane; and 353 million euros for “performance-based logistics support”; with the weapons package of 700 million euros being the extra.

What is new here are the performance-based logistics support and weapons package. So take out 1,053 million euros out and you have the comparable cost, which means it is 7.1 billion euros. It appears that the “fiddle” is in India-specific costs, additional infrastructure and support, and performance logistics support. The first MMRCA deal would also have included India-specific specifications, as in the case of IAF’s SU-30 MKIs. For comparison’s sake, the argument can be that 36 Rafales now cost 7.1 billion euros, while 126 Rafales in 2012 cost 7.75 billion euros.

IAF “spokesmen” have been justifying the Rafale purchase as the package includes the Meteor air-to-air missile. The Meteor is the new game-changer in the air. It increases the “no-escape” zone for a hostile aircraft by about three times. The Meteor is an active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) developed by MBDA. It will offer a multi-shot capability against long-range manoeuvring targets in a heavy electronic counter-measures (ECM) environment with range in excess of 100 km (62 mi).

According to the manufacturer, in a head-on engagement the Meteor provides a no-escape zone three times greater than that of a conventionally-powered missile. With the Meteor launched in pursuit of a target — a tail-chase engagement — the Meteor is five times as lethal as a conventional equivalent, such as the American AMRAAM. According to MBDA, Meteor has three to six times the kinematic performance of current air-to-air missiles of its type. The key to Meteor’s performance is believed to be its throttleable ducted rocket (ramjet) manufactured by Bayern-Chemie of Germany.

Since the IAF cannot speak for itself, it deploys former IAF officials to speak for it. These “experts” have been deceptively disseminating the Meteor missile as the real reason for buying the Rafales. It was even said on a RSTV panel discussion in which I took part by an air vice-marshal who has found second wind as a strategic expert. The fact is that the Swedish Gripen has now been integrated with the Meteor and open sources indicate that the IAF too is contemplating integrating the SU-30 MKI and Meteor. Even the Tejas can be fitted out with Meteors. So we aren’t buying the Rafale for the Meteor.

The cost of procuring Meteors is hard to come by. Limited figures came to light in Germany in 2013. The Luftwaffe will acquire 150 missiles at a cost of around $323 million, plus a further $175 million for integration. That compares favourably with a price tag of $423 million for 180 AIM-120Ds, which the Pentagon paid in 2012. Today each Meteor will cost about 2.5 million euros each. I don’t think the IAF will need more Meteor missiles than the US Air Force or the Luftwaffe. But then there are other missiles to pay for too. Missile purchases can never be part of the capital cost of a fighter. Since they are expendable, and presumably mean to be expendable, they should be part of revenue expenditure. Make no mistake. The Rafale is a top class 4+ generation fighter. Perhaps even the best. But we are concerned with prices and payoffs. If this is a given, we must be happy that we made a good purchase.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kashi »

For comparison’s sake, the argument can be that 36 Rafales now cost 7.1 billion euros, while 126 Rafales in 2012 cost 7.75 billion euros.
Is that even right? Has it been confirmed that French had agreed to sell us and that GoI had agreed to buy 126 Rafales in 2012 at the cost of 7.75 billion Euros?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

That is far fetched. Comparison of other Rafale deals made with other countries like Egypt lets me to believe that the said price is looking in the good ball park. 126 rafale for that price is not looking accurate.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Austin »

Katare wrote:
Austin wrote:MKI cost is $60 million dont you understand even simple math ?

HAL made MKI cost 475 crore ~ $60 million , Tejas ~ $ 32 Million [ 250 crore ] and Rafale ~ $94 million [ 750 crore] that is official figure from MOD Parrikar


The cost of MKI built by HAL from Indian sources Raw material also takes into account the Lic Production , Assembly Infra and TOT cost that has been absorbed into MKI program so far , so goes for Tejas too.

I am deliberately making it bold and red so that it is easy to understand what Parikar quoted as figures for each type. No need for FUD on MKI cost and cost of Tejas and Rafale period !
My friend writing it in bold Red would not make it correct. What currency conversion rate are you using? Today a dollar buys Rs 64.48

MKI
475/65= ~$75M (numbers that you quoted)
$4.1 Billion/42 = ~$100M for 2012 deal.

LCA = ~$40M
Rafael = $96M for aircraft + other avionics added makes it $115M/aircraft

Let's get the facts right. Pariker never said nothing about $60M Su30 MKI.
Parrikar did says 475 crores for MKI and if currency conversions affects MKI it affects all the other aircraft too Tejas and Rafale , so there is nothing much in USD value to compare other than to get a USD figure which will vary due to exchange rate fluctations.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kashi »

Austin wrote:Parrikar did says 475 crores for MKI and if currency conversions affects MKI it affects all the other aircraft too Tejas and Rafale , so there is nothing much in USD value to compare other than to get a USD figure which will vary due to exchange rate fluctations.
For simplicity let us use the USD-INR reference rate from RBI website.

Today's exchange rate is 1 USD= 64.4206 INR

I am not sure when Parrikar made those statements but for simplicity let us consider the rates on the day this report was published i.e. May 20, 2016.

As per RBI website, on that day, the reference rate was 1 USD = 67.4076 INR

So when Parrikar's statements were published,
1 Rafale cost 700-750 crore INR = $103.84-$111 MILLION USD
1 MKI cost 475 crore INR= $70.46 MILLION USD.

At Today's exchange rate (64.4206)
1 Rafale= $108.66-$116 MILLION USD
1 MKI = $73.73 MILLION USD.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

The Su-30 is 80 percent manufactured in India. Even with some of the raw materials etc imported, the processing is mostly in India. The Rafale is 100 percent imported. The Su-30 will have to a significantly lower FE component in dollar terms.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Philip »

There is simply no way that the Rafale without BMos,etc. can match an MKI's cost-effectiveness, when such a huge % is now desi obtained.Furthemore, Astra is to be used across the board for all mix of fighters along with other Sam's, so relative BVR comes down to the radars where the MKIs have the greatest range.Some analysts in comparison say that the Rafale will be shot down before it can detect an MKI.Even if both BVR capabilities are even, the MKI clearly is a better WVR fighter with TVC displayed at so many air shows and a better strike bird with BMos-A with a 500km range at Mach 3 outclasses subsonic SCALP at 250km plus the fact that BMos is home- made not a firang import!

If at all we have to buy a few more, the option of a further 18+ should be the max. acquired the cost in comparison with other options cannot justify such an expensive buy.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

French small businesses examine Indian Rafale opportunities
http://www.janes.com/article/75998/fren ... ortunities
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