VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Rakesh
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

They are pulling up straw men. This is desperation to win a deal. They have nothing to stand on.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/137 ... 37155?s=20 ---> Nice! IAF Rafales armed with MICA air-to-air missiles flying in Ladakh. Pictures released by the Indian Air Force today.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Philip »

Peculiar story.For models of the aircraft! Let the water,sorry wine of this French report find its own level and be flushed down the drain. However, while at least another sqd.of Rafales is v.welcome, the price of a Rafale is v.v.high and the last statement from the CDS about budget costs must be kept in mind. The deal was 36 aircraft for around $7.5 -$8.0+ B which would've included infra,trg., weaponry,etc. Shorn of those appurtenent costs, what would be an estimated unit cost per Rafale today? Are there any time sensitive prices for follow-on orders once the delivery of tranche-1 has been completed?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kakkaji »

Indian firm rejects allegations over supply of Rafale replica
An Indian firm on Tuesday said it supplied 50 replicas of Rafale aircraft to its maker Dassault Aviation, a day after a fresh controversy erupted over the fighter jets' deal following a French media report.

The media report said the inspectors of the Agence Française Anticorruption (AFA) were given no proof that these models were made.

Defsys Solutions on Tuesday released a statement and tax invoices stating that the allegations were totally unfounded.

"This is in response to wholly unsubstantiated, baseless and misleading claims appearing in certain sections of the media, insinuating that Defsys never supplied 50 replica models of Rafale aircraft," the company said in a statement.

It said 50 replica models of Rafale aircraft were delivered to Dassault Aviation based on a purchase order received from the defence major.

"Delivery challans, E-way bills and GST returns related to such delivery have been duly filed with the relevant authorities," the company said.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Raghav_kidambi/stat ... 53218?s=20 ---> Rafale of the Indian Air Force. Final checks before takeoff for the afternoon sortie.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Rafale EH BS012, 13 and 14 along with 1 Rafale DH have departed from Merignac for their ferry flight to India.

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from Livefist's Twitter

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1385 ... 10881?s=20 ---> CAS visit to France - Day. Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria visited Rafale Conversion Training Center (CTC), Bordeaux- Merignac and interacted with the IAF contingent at the CTC facility.

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https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1385 ... 14820?s=20 ---> In the latter part of the day, CAS along with Gen Lavigne, Chief of Staff @Armee_de_lair, visited Saint-Dizier Air Base. They were received by the Base Commander, Col Julien Fourneret who conducted the Chiefs on a tour of the resident fighter squadrons and other operational & maintenance units.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by wig »

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 91126.html

Rafale weaponry prompts China, Pak to alter defence posture
extracts
According to top South Block officials, with the IAF’s first Rafale squadron just one short of completion in Ambala, the Chinese have moved their so-called fifth generation fighter J-20 ahead in the Tibet and Xinjiang airbases.
With the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) Rafale fighter successfully test-firing the 60km range Hammer air-to-ground modular weapon in March, the air defence posture of both China and Pakistan has changed in the wake of the advent of the multi-role fighter in South Asia, according to people familiar with the matter.

The Hammer weapon secured a bunker-busting vertical hit on its target at the testing location. According to top South Block officials, with the IAF’s first Rafale squadron just one short of completion in Ambala, the Chinese have moved their so-called fifth generation fighter J-20 ahead in the Tibet and Xinjiang airbases. The Pakistanis have also moved their Chinese import JF-17 fighter in key forward bases to tackle the clear and present threat of the Rafale fighter. Although the Chinese say the J-20 is the third operational fifth-generation fighter after the US F-22 and F-35, genuine fifth-generation fighters developed by the Americans do not have a canard that further reduces the cross-section of the plane, the officials said. The Chinese J-20 has the same canard as the Rafale, which the IAF calls a 4.5-generation fighter.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

Why is it saying 1 short of full squadron...?
Didn't we receive 18 jets till date (in batches 5+3+3+3+4) to complete the squadron...?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Does anyone have any idea as to which boots the IAF pilot in this pic is wearing? I've only seen Rafale pilots wear them and these are not standard issue IAF boots.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

LakshmanPST wrote:Why is it saying 1 short of full squadron...?
Didn't we receive 18 jets till date (in batches 5+3+3+3+4) to complete the squadron...?
Four were supposed to leave, but only three left. The fourth - a twin seater - developed a technical malfunction and was towed back to the hangar out of an abundance of caution. Will eventually join the fleet. FWIW....I read that on twitter.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Rafale weaponry prompts China, Pak to alter defence posture
extracts
While India could only send three out of five readied fighters from the Merignac Bordeaux airbase in France on Wednesday due to unforeseen reasons, seven more fighters have been lined up for delivery to IAF next month. Although the seven fighters may come in batches of three and four, six of them will be flown to the Hashimara airbase in West Bengal via Ambala. The re-pavement and extension of the main runway at Hashimara, which sits astride the Siliguri corridor, is expected to be completed by this month-end. The Haishmara upgrade also includes blast pens and surface-to-air missile batteries to protect the vital base.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by chetak »

Kartik wrote:Does anyone have any idea as to which boots the IAF pilot in this pic is wearing? I've only seen Rafale pilots wear them and these are not standard issue IAF boots.
it is not the standard issue boots.

may be some special cold weather stuff or something fancy purchased privately

either way, it's not a done thing, especially with the chief present and foreigners too.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Those shoes may be there for a specific reason. Just because you dont recognize the reason does not mean you can say the fella is in-disciplined or dis-respecting! Are you thinking that the pilot is teenager who has just happened to like sneekers and has worn them for a party?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by chetak »

viveks wrote:Those shoes may be there for a specific reason. Just because you dont recognize the reason does not mean you can say the fella is in-disciplined or dis-respecting! Are you thinking that the pilot is teenager who has just happened to like sneekers and has worn them for a party?
I have seen very senior uniformed heroes walking about with very long hair just because no one was willing to point it out and they sure as hell thought that they could get away with it.

I have also seen some Indian armed forces attaches in some of our embassies making up a uniform of their own.

When asked about it, one joker answered rather arrogantly, this is better for the climate here.

Service guys in other embassies know all about the uniform of the service guys in the Indian embassy as indeed our guys are supposed to know their uniforms.

we do not need mavericks swanning about in private uniforms whilst on duty in other countries and making a laughing stock of themselves. Ultimately, it reflects very badly on us.

no one encourages or condones showboats in the forces.

the uniform is uniform.

It is uniform for a very specific reason and additionally, it also fosters a strong feeling of brotherhood.

with the exception of this one guy, every other Indian guy, including the chief, was dressed in the approved uniform

then again, OTOH, if he has worn it in such august company, there may well be some reason for it.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by gpurewal »

^Maybe there is a special allowance/exception for him. We don't have any information as to why he is wearing them, but I trust the IAF has allowed for it, since he is wearing this in front of the CAS.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by chetak »

gpurewal wrote:^Maybe there is a special allowance/exception for him. We don't have any information as to why he is wearing them, but I trust the IAF has allowed for it, since he is wearing this in front of the CAS.
or he may have already got an earful by now.

Either way, my last on this
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Guys, it is a pair of shoes. Just saying.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by hnair »

Oh boy
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by YashG »

I read about hammer and then this thread popping up with posts, thought i might be about to read about something interesting.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Atmavik »

Guys this is the Fauj, even NCC cadets like me were chewed out for not having the right uniform or shoes.

and speaking of shoes in the Air force here is a great story.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/histo ... #gsc.tab=0


When Lightning Strikes!

In October 1971, Parker has a surprise visitor to his squadron. One fine day, an impromptu inspection was called in and the visitor turned out to be Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P.C. Lal, in one of his surprise visits to forward units. All the pilots turned out in flying gear for inspection. As Parker came in to receive the CAS, Lal remarked, "Parker, I understand that you lay lot of emphasis on physical training, maybe that's why one of your pilots is still in his PT Shoes!"

Wg. Cdr. Parker could detect a hint of well intended sarcasm in the Lal's remark. Parker looked at the pilots for the offender, and realised what had inspired Lal to remark on that. Parker replied to Lal, "Sir, the pilot is not wearing PT shoes, he is a naval pilot, wearing his white uniform shoes." Even Lal was unaware of the details of how a naval officer came to be deputed to an operational IAF squadron.

PS: the Navy pilot later became the cheif of Navy. Admiral Arun Prakash.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Atmavik wrote:Guys this is the Fauj, even NCC cadets like me were chewed out for not having the right uniform or shoes.
Yeah....even if you got into the group, you would become the lone shark running the whole ground continuously while the whole squad did parade practice.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by sajaym »

Folks, apart from the MI-26 and the MIG-25, Rafale is the only type to have been inducted by IAF in low quantities, correct? Or was there any other type also?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 as well.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by srai »

sajaym wrote:Folks, apart from the MI-26 and the MIG-25, Rafale is the only type to have been inducted by IAF in low quantities, correct? Or was there any other type also?
Depends on how you define low quantities.

40 x Mirage-2000 (+10)
60 x MiG-29 (+10)
40 x Tejas Mk.1
36 x Rafale
15 x Chinnoks
22 x AH-64
10 x C-17
6 x C-130 (+6)
6 x IL-76 Midas
3 x Phalcons
3 x Netras

etc ...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

I think the absolute lowest was MiG 25 just 8 planes
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The Mi-26 fleet was at four choppers only. Only three are left.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

hemant_sai wrote:Some of utub channels are predicting case of M88-3 or M88-4 as option. But why HAL and ADA is not even giving it a try on one of LSP?
Don't read too much into the tweet. No engine tech is coming. Screwdrivergiri onlee.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/138 ... 02624?s=20 ---> HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines signed today a MoU announcing their intent to work together on bringing niche engine technology to India.

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https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/138 ... 53797?s=20 ---> HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines intend to explore opportunities to assemble the Safran M88 engine and manufacture components for the engine with HAL for additional batch of Rafale aircraft for India and for any aircraft manufactured in India by HAL fitted with M88!

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/138 ... 80005?s=20 ---> The transfer of a significant amount of technology in the assembling/manufacturing programs is also contemplated.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/138 ... 37856?s=20 ---> The MOU also encompasses collaboration between HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines for indigenization programs relating to design and development of high thrust engines of 110 kN power and above with transfer of key technology in the framework of this development.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/138 ... 30626?s=20 ---> Now one thing shouldn't be forgotten, that announcement came in February month itself, and today CAS visited Safran facility. Hope for big, or I am just hoping.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Rafale BS019

credit- Swiderek Maciejka

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

BS012 before it had left for India

pic credit - Swiderek Maciejka

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

PODCAST

The induction of Rafale fighter aircraft gives the Indian Air Force (IAF) a powered thrust in meeting the security challenges that India is faced with. Its avionics and on-board systems give it a lead over most aircrafts in use today. The weapon systems that it carries cater for the longest engagements both in air-to-air and air-to-ground roles with maximum accuracy. Rafale also strengthens our triad capabilities. Brigadier SK Chatterji (Retd), Editor Bharatshakti.in discusses the aircraft and its weapon systems with Air Commodore SP Singh (Retd), who has been a fighter pilot and is an often consulted strategic analyst.

https://soundcloud.com/bharat-shakti/ra ... powerhouse
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Rafale BS021 has flown as well..which means that 29 out of the 36 Rafales ordered have flown so far. Only 7 left.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ArjunPandit »

interesting to see beluga in background ..only a handful were built for large sized cargos
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Some of the article can be applied to the Rafale in IAF service :)

Original piece from the above article....
For those who remain skeptical of the F-35, what else is there? To kill or radically curtail the program now - one of the pathways suggested by the GAO - would cede billions of dollars in sunk costs, create a requirements crisis, and lead to a new program that would cost more and take longer to field. Consider previous shortsighted decisions, such as the premature cancellation of the F-22 in 2009.
My amended piece from the above article....
For those who remain skeptical of the Rafale in the IAF, what else is there? To kill or radically curtail the program now - one of the pathways suggested by the MRFA contest - would cede billions of dollars in sunk costs, create a requirements crisis, and lead to a new program that would cost more and take longer to field. Consider previous shortsighted decisions, such as the premature cancellation of the 150 Mirage 2000 make in India contract in the 1980s.
Get another 36 more Rafales and end the MRFA tamasha. I may have just committed hara-kiri and this will likely cause takleef to the "strategic/military alliance partnership" promoters on BRF. Oh well.... ;)

Rafale will be obsolete by 2036....but F-21 will remain relevant till the 22nd century, because it is Amreeki :lol:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
Rafale will be obsolete by 2036....but F-21 will remain relevant till the 22nd century, because it is Amreeki :lol:
Rafale development roadmap goes beyond 2040 with incremental upgrades
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

I am aware of that kit :)

I was quoting BRF's risk assessor who made that claim.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by srai »

...

Consider previous shortsighted decisions, such as the premature cancellation of the 150 Mirage 2000 make in India contract in the 1980s.

...
On one hand, the IAF medium category would have been well set with over 200 Mirage-2000 (10+ squadrons). Follow-on production would have been likely. Combine it with 270 Su-30MKI heavy category (13 squadrons), the IAF would have been well set.

On the other hand, side effects could have been no LCA and no Rafale. The IAF have been very happy with its Mirages-2000s. Less need for domestic-lite version in LCA, which was plagued with R&D know-hows. Another would be the Mirages were expensive for the 1980/90 India, it is possible Su-30MKI may not have happened or reduced in scope. MLU of Mirage-2000 have been quite expensive and doing it for a large fleet would have eaten into other procurements.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vips »

The 150 Mirage's would have been good till now but no further. Countries like Qatar and Egypt have Mirage 2000 but have since moved on. If we had only Porkistan as a neighbour yes those Mirages would have been good even for another decade but with china as our enemy No 1 they would not/will not be enough.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vips »

JayS wrote:Next 36 would cost around $3.5B for bare aircraft (95M per piece) + lets say $1.5-2.0B for weapons + Support package + additional IAF specific changes

Add some price inflation as there are no options in this current deal. So somewhere near $5.5B.
The French will for certain try to gouge us by claiming F4 version > F3. I tried finding which version the Egyptians have opted for in the latest order but have not been able to come across more specifics of that deal.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:Get another 36 more Rafales and end the MRFA tamasha.
Agree with everything but the highlighted part. I say,
Get another 36 more Rafales and continue to dangle the MRFA tamasha. That dangling carrot will continue to pit their greed against their desire to screw India at any given opportunity.
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