VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Rakesh wrote: Pakistan - since independence - has always "whored" itself to the highest bidder.
Kya likhta hain Rakesh...you make me laugh so much. :D :D :lol:

By the same logic them, giving them a fair chance in fight...we must probably pit the Hawk trainer against the JF-17. Enemy does however, deserve respect when he has to meet Allah......ala re ala iska Alah ala! :D :D. In human earth you are such a pervert that you cannot womanize and get a woman to like you...that you dream of 72 virgins...you will probably get 72 chudails in your heaven!!!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Atmavik »

Tanaji wrote:Has anyone seen any videos of JF17 firing a BVR yet?
Only a true momin can see it. If u haven’t then u r not pure enough. It’s like Ali ki talwar ( even this is haraam nowadays)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:
Tanaji wrote:Has anyone seen any videos of JF17 firing a BVR yet?
None that I have seen. But JF-17 can fire PL-15 which has a range of 300+ km or so the NaPakis and their Chinese overlords claim. BVRAAMs like AIM-120D AMRAAM (160+ km) and Meteor (150+ km) stand no chance.

Forget India, even America will lose against such wonderful Chinese technology.
What are you saying, Admiral saar. Don't you know that PAF pilots are so good that they don't need BVR missiles. They even release dumb, unguided bombs from beyond visual ranges!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by sajaym »

Vips wrote: There are some AV's that are claiming that the Air Force plan is to go for a staggered purchase of 108 Rafales 36 + (36 + 36) to off set immediate financial pressure/obligation and also to take advantage of buying in tranches more advanced versions (F4.1 onwards)
I'm guessing that we are actually buying 72 more rafales, because 36 are already ordered. But I think that 6 sqn for the IAF is an overkill and some how the 72 should have a small option to include 12 Naval rafales for the Navy. These 12 Naval rafales can be land based and operate similarly to the marine strike jaguars, and only operate from the Vikrant (or from 'vapour' Vishal) on a need basis.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

hnair wrote:
Snip...

The only way a 2:7 Thundaar vs Rafale score is true is if some incompetent paki groundcrew used a tractor to drag two Thundaars through a line of parked Rafales on the way to some free food.
Or the ROE were so restrictive that a Fokker triplane could have killed the Rafale.

And yet they lost 2 Thundaars.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

viveks wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Pakistan - since independence - has always "whored" itself to the highest bidder.
Kya likhta hain Rakesh...you make me laugh so much. :D :D :lol:
You are welcome Sirjee :)

But it is true. Pakistan got the short end of the stick at independence, as Jinnah famously said that all he got was a moth eaten Pakistan. By the time the early 1950s rolled along, Pakistan realized that aligning with America was in its best interest. So in May 1954, Pakistan signed the Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement with the United States, which was quickly followed by CENTO and SEATO. It was the only way, then could ensure security (i.e. free arms) for their new country. But with free arms came Amreeki influence, because nothing is truly free in this world. And Pakistan's geographical location gave the Amreekis an excellent opportunity to get a foot hold in South Asia to counter Soviet influence.

Nehru - with his grandiose non-alignment, appeasement and socialistic views - thought the Soviet model was best i.e. the infamous 5 Year Plan. In the 1950s, the British were reluctant to provide anything of value to India and the Soviets wanted to counter Amreeki influence in South Asia and India was the perfect launch vehicle for them. When the British closed the door, the Soviets opened theirs and India walked right in. The rest is history. But India proved time and time again, that just because Pakistan has a superior platform...it does not translate into automatic victory.

Pakistan's manhood came into question when Operation Smiling Buddha became a success in 1974. Then Pakistan Prime Minister ZA Bhutto famously said that his people will eat grass if they have to, but Pakistan will acquire a nuclear weapon. He on the other hand only ate Sturgeon caviar and other such delicacies. But his people ate grass and smoked copious amounts of ganja. Pakistan switched her alliance from the US and became a dutiful & loyal prostitute to her new master China. It was a mutually beneficial relationship that continues to this day. Whoring is not something new to them. They have been doing it since 1947 and will continue to do it.

But Pakistan's nail in her own coffin was the whole hearted embrace of militant/radical Islam, as a means to achieve her objective. They watered the seeds and then nutured that disease way back in October 1947, when they sent in Pashtun tribal militias into Kashmir....to rape, loot, plunder and capture Srinagar. That failed miserably. They repeated the same feat in August 1965 with Operation Gibraltar. But still failed to get Kashmir. After two spectacular failures, one would have imagined that Pakistan would have learnt their lesson. But no, they repeated it for a third time at Kargil in 1999, albeit this time with regular troops from the NLI. However by 1999, there was little or no difference from Pak Army regulars and jihadis that desperately want their 72s.

The Pakistan of today is nothing like the vision of what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan. It is today a rabid, mental disease infested, malnutrioned (both physically and mentally...a proven fact) nation that thrives on wild conspiracy theories of Ghazwa-E-Hind and other nonsenses. It is being held together by China for her own geopolitical influences, but otherwise is lawless. And Pak Army Gernails are making hay while the sun shines, looting the country and building grand corner plot bungalows. Had Pakistan adopted the course of real world education versus Wahhabism, the country would have been far different. But their obsession over Kashmir was their downfall. It is a cancer that will consume them.

The takeaway and lesson for India is this - nothing, not even Rafale F3R + Meteor, will come anywhere close to the tremendous leverage that India will enjoy by having her own military industrial complex (MIC). You have seen my many arguments with Vivek_K on this and other threads. But his dogged determination and passion, even when his line of argument is completely illogical, for local maal is commendable and admirable. This is where India needs to achieve victory. Real financial and economic security lies in India having her own MIC. Real geopolitical influence can only occur when India has her own MIC.

The real advantage lies in Tejas Mk2 + Astra Mk2 & SFDR + local turbofan. That is when India will have truly arrived. Till then, we have to continue walking the path of multipolar alignment. The goal is not perpetual importing (from 1947 - 2014), but import to lead to independence (2014 to present). That is the goal. That is the objective. And this Govt's record is not perfect, but you cannot shut down the import lobby overnight.

What is the plus in doing screwdrivergiri of somebody else's plane, when you can manufacture your own plane?
viveks wrote:By the same logic them, giving them a fair chance in fight...we must probably pit the Hawk trainer against the JF-17. Enemy does however, deserve respect when he has to meet Allah......ala re ala iska Alah ala! :D :D. In human earth you are such a pervert that you cannot womanize and get a woman to like you...that you dream of 72 virgins...you will probably get 72 chudails in your heaven!!!
The PAF will have a few aces up their sleeve with the JF-17. That is to be expected.

But in an all out air war, the Pakistan Air Force will not survive - as an effective fighting force - beyond a week. I am not being hyperbole here, but just a fact. The military advantage that India holds right now is vast. Pakistan trumps her tactical victories (the loss of a MiG-21, the capture of Wing Commander Varthaman, serving him tea and making him say that the tea was fantastic, etc) as the real victory. If Pakistan really wants to walk down that rabbit hole of tactical victory, then it was the Indian Air Force (IAF) that shot down a F-16 with a MiG-21, with Wing Commander Varthaman handling himself with elan while as a POW, then drank their tea, had Pakistan shamelessly escort him to the Wagah border and then sheepishly handed him over to India. He truly lived up to his father's name (Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman), as that of Son of a Lion.

But India sets aside the loss of a MiG-21 and looks at the real strategic victory i.e. Pakistan now has to think twice before launching jihadis to do extra curricular activities like Uri and Pulwama. Terrorists launch pads are now pushed back, causing more logistical headache for Pakistan. More logistical headache = more money. So as it has always been, it is India - 1 and Pakistan - still 0 onlee.

But an all out air war is unlikely to occur. The escalatory ladder will be too much for them to bear. And China and America will come running to Pakistan's aid, to maintain their own H&D. Remember the lady from the Pentagon who famously said that no F-16 was shot down? She reportedly went to Pakistan and counted all their F-16s :lol: So while Pakistan celebrates tactical victories, India continues to progress ahead. Eventually it will reach a tipping point (we have already reached there, to be honest), where Pakistan will become irrelevant.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Or the ROE were so restrictive that a Fokker triplane could have killed the Rafale.

And yet they lost 2 Thundaars.
While the actual exercise results will not be revealed, did you see this tweet? :)

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 08648?s=20 ---> Qatar Air Force rejects reports that JF-17 beat Rafales in recent exercises in Turkey. While Qatar stated that Rafales achieved a great kill ratio against Turkish F-16s, it added that Pak Air Force formally requested not to reveal results in public (to avoid embarrassment to PAF).

If the Rafale got a great kill ratio against the F-16, imagine what it would be against the JF-17. Why bring a hammer drill to the event, when a fly swatter will do?

The PAF will employ the JF-17 where they feel they have some advantage, but the larger picture for the PAF is now that they will not be able to achieve any modicum of air superiority or air dominance with the JF-17 in a theatre. And if I do not have this advantage, then the larger war is lost. They have now realized this fact. The JF-17 is a lemon, no matter how you slice it. But lemons is all that Pakistan can afford. This is what happens when you are in the vise grip of another (super)power. A scenario best avoided by India.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:...

The Pakistan of today is nothing like the vision of what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan....
<OT>Admiral sir, humbly beg to differ. The Bakistan of today is exactly what Djinnah wanted... only thing that the blinkered megalomaniac couldn't forsee or couldn't calculate was the MINUS of having no Oil </OT>
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote:
hnair wrote:
Snip...

The only way a 2:7 Thundaar vs Rafale score is true is if some incompetent paki groundcrew used a tractor to drag two Thundaars through a line of parked Rafales on the way to some free food.
Or the ROE were so restrictive that a Fokker triplane could have killed the Rafale.

And yet they lost 2 Thundaars.
Somebody should ask the Baki twitter defence eggsspurts and anal-cysts if the JF-17 is so much better than the Rafale then how many orders of the Bandar will Qatar be placing immediately...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vivek K »

:rotfl: ! Hell will freeze over before Qatar buys the bandar!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 62534?s=20 ---> IAF Chief says Indian Air Force now has an "edge" in its ability on both the Western and Northern fronts to "react fast, respond fast and hit fast", noting that induction of Rafale jets has helped in bringing the "next level" of operational transformation.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^I don’t buy it If that was entirely true based on induction of less than a squadron of Tejas and a squadron+half of the Rafale. To me it indicates surveillance capability improvement may be the bigger factor.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Mort-ji, the ground work is being laid for two more Rafale units :)

So while the Rafale has brought some unique capabilities to the table, you are more or less on point. Ambala AFS - home base of the first Rafale unit - is right smack in the middle of the eastern and western fronts, so the IAF can move these assets to either theatre, depending on where they need them. If they get two more Rafale units, that many more airframes will be available.

With a minimum of 75% fleet availability (as written in the contract), that translates to 27 birds which have to be available at all times for flight duties. Add another two units and that 27 will go to 54 birds.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Rakesh wrote:
But it is true. Pakistan got the short end of the stick at independence, as Jinnah famously said that all he got was a moth eaten Pakistan.
It was India that got cheated. Pakistan got almost 30 percent land and only 15% population including the most fertile delta in east Pakistan.

All the debt India got. While Pakistan started debtless.

India started with 85% population and only 70% land.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Mort Walker »

Vivek K wrote::rotfl: ! Hell will freeze over before Qatar buys the bandar!
To reduce Saudi influence, Qatar has been pursuing a policy of engaging CENTCOM and Pentagon officials for the past 5-6 years now. They may indeed get a few JF-17 with all options so that it can be studied intently by the DIA to get a better glimpse of Chinese military manufacturing capability and what the Chinese may be passing on to the Pakis. I don't see anyone, including India, discouraging the Qataris.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Wonder if IAF is quietly undertaking incursions into chinese airspace with the Active Radar Cancelling to monitor some of their activities. Putting the rafales there is aggressive posturing. Will have to see how the Gandhi fatherland behaves with a lethal one in its arsenal. Perhaps Netaji Subhash should have seen this day.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

Manish_Sharma wrote:It was India that got cheated. Pakistan got almost 30 percent land and only 15% population including the most fertile delta in east Pakistan.

All the debt India got. While Pakistan started debtless.

India started with 85% population and only 70% land.
This is true, we got the short end of the stick given our population density and we were sold a fake bill of goods that Pakistan was worse off than us. Even today, our population density is much higher, partly due to geographical reasons (UP in particular) but also that Pak got more than it deserved.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing out my error.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by rajsunder »

Manish_Sharma wrote:It was India that got cheated. Pakistan got almost 30 percent land and only 15% population including the most fertile delta in east Pakistan.

All the debt India got. While Pakistan started debtless.

India started with 85% population and only 70% land.
I also believe that India got the short end of the stick. We still are bearing the result of the foolish decision of Indian political leaders to allow muslims to stay back in India after giving them separate country. that was the worst decision taken by an Indian politician so far.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Can Rafale take down S-400 SAM?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

rajsunder wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
It was India that got cheated. Pakistan got almost 30 percent land and only 15% population including the most fertile delta in east Pakistan.

All the debt India got. While Pakistan started debtless.

India started with 85% population and only 70% land.
I also believe that India got the short end of the stick. We still are bearing the result of the foolish decision of Indian political leaders to allow muslims to stay back in India after giving them separate country. that was the worst decision taken by an Indian politician so far.
The British just didn't leave India, they selected the Indian leaders and ecosystem which is alive and sustained till today which controls education and Media narrative till today. See from 1920 to 1950 , generous Land donations where made to setup pliable education institutions to Brainwash Indians, we are still controlled by narratives others want us to think, these problems dont have short term solutions but long term work.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

The Brits have spun another web since 26/11. Remember they retired captain cook as older recipes were becoming distastfull. Chicken TIKKA masala!!!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by YashG »

rajsunder wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
It was India that got cheated. Pakistan got almost 30 percent land and only 15% population including the most fertile delta in east Pakistan.

All the debt India got. While Pakistan started debtless.

India started with 85% population and only 70% land.
I also believe that India got the short end of the stick. We still are bearing the result of the foolish decision of Indian political leaders to allow muslims to stay back in India after giving them separate country. that was the worst decision taken by an Indian politician so far.
Thats a ship that has sailed now. We got to make best of the India we got. What israel got was worse. A soldier fights with what they have and with the team they have.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Paul »

Bengal partition was along 1905 lines. Hence the Bengal delta was never going to be ours. Undivided Punjab and Bengal almost went to Pakistan.... did not happen, and we ended up getting the Kashmir valley. The outcome could have been much worse.

Areas we lost we were Tharparkar(sindh), Sylhet and CHT where the referundum results went in favor of Pakistan.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by rajsunder »

viveks wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Pakistan - since independence - has always "whored" itself to the highest bidder.
Kya likhta hain Rakesh...you make me laugh so much. :D :D :lol:

By the same logic them, giving them a fair chance in fight...we must probably pit the Hawk trainer against the JF-17. Enemy does however, deserve respect when he has to meet Allah......ala re ala iska Alah ala! :D :D. In human earth you are such a pervert that you cannot womanize and get a woman to like you...that you dream of 72 virgins...you will probably get 72 chudails in your heaven!!!
technically speaking it has been the "whore" as well as a "pimp" depending on the situation.

And guys lets get back to discussing Rafale before our admin's use their lathis.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Thank you rajsunder. Let us stick to topic.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Bah...aajkal ke hatyaar koi Alien technology se kum nahi. Amazed!
Rakesh wrote:Can Rafale take down S-400 SAM?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

It is nice to know that the IAF will operate both the Rafale and the S-400. Both teams will learn the strengths and weaknesses of the platforms and put it to good use against China.

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the S-400.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Chinmay »

Spectacular images of IAF Jaguars and Rafales from AFS Ambala

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1432 ... 61248?s=20

edit: Apologies, I dont know how to embed images
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

Chinmay wrote:Spectacular images of IAF Jaguars and Rafales from AFS Ambala

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1432 ... 61248?s=20

edit: Apologies, I dont know how to embed images
Right click on image on Twitter and copy Image address, insert in after pressing Img button in BRF tab, for copy right reasons putting Twitter URL.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ashishvikas »

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1432 ... 61248?s=20 ---> IAF commemorated #AzadiKaAmritMahotsav with a 75 aircraft #ElephantWalk.

Swift and Lethal #75@75.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Chinmay »

Aditya_V wrote:Right click on image on Twitter and copy Image address, insert in after pressing Img button in BRF tab, for copy right reasons putting Twitter URL.
Thank you!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Maria »

Chinmay wrote:Spectacular images of IAF Jaguars and Rafales from AFS Ambala
Salwar browning time for our friends in the West, while the ones in the North are now going to arm their lumbering J-20s with Bandars underwing.
Last edited by Rakesh on 01 Sep 2021 18:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Beautiful pictures. Thank you Ashish Saar!

The Jaguars are from No 5 Tuskers and No 14 Bulls, while the Rafale is from No 17 Golden Arrows.

All three squadrons are home based at Ambala, where these wonderful pictures were taken.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Fact-Check: N Ram is lying in his The Hindu article about the Rafale Deal, here’s how
https://theperspective.co.in/fact-check ... heres-how/
By Rohit Vats, 26 August 2021

Rafale Deal: Comprehensive cost data analysis proves that India has got a far better deal compared to 2007
https://theperspective.co.in/rafale-dea ... d-to-2007/
By Rohit Vats, 26 August 2021
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ashishvikas »

Harsh Vardhan Thakur (@hvtiaf) giving hints for 2 more squadron of Rafale.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14321 ... 26215?s=20 ---> 36+36
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ashishvikas wrote:Harsh Vardhan Thakur (@hvtiaf) giving hints for 2 more squadron of Rafale.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14321 ... 26215?s=20 ---> 36+36
I saw that. It was in response to this statement below from the Raksha Mantri. If the second batch of 36 goes through, the IAF has plans for a third batch of 36. That will bring it to 108 aircraft, fairly close to the 114 MRFA contract.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 93696?s=20 ---> The 20-year wait for the Indian Air Force's Next Generation Fighter Plane is over. Today the IAF has fighter planes like Rafales and now our strength has increased a lot to respond to any challenge regarding India's sovereignty, integrity, border security: Defence Minister.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Wonderful pictures. I have been meaning to see such good photos. Long time coming. AFS Ambala is pretty lethal now. At first I thought this is from a western nation. Glad to known it is from Ambala.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

A lifetime wish.. to see an elephant predator walk of a hundred Tejas, with multi-rack AAMs, some with asymmetrical AGM loadout (just because they can).
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vivek K »

An opportunity to showcase the LCA missed. What is so special about lining up your purchased aircraft on a ramp? The IAF is still not able to decide if it wants to continue using the Jags with their underpowered issue that jeopardizes egress from hot zones. Would have been better to show LCAs, Sukhois, M2Ks and Rafales. That would have been a more potent formation.
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