VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Cain Marko
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Avinandan wrote:Where Saar. Do you have any sample load-out pics ?

This typical loadout still need the pylons.
Link
You are right... For some reason I always thought that the outer underbelly hps on the rafale were recessed (guess not). Although the center line ones maybe considered functionally recessed since they are "tucked in" between the nacelles on the centreline.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Would not semi-recessing the load point restrict it's usage only to a certain dimension/shape of a missile ? I mean if the semi-recessed shape is done from say a Magic/MICA type AAM then it might not be easy to carry a bulkier ASM / bomb on that hard point... perhaps the trade-offs in drag/RCS are not really worth it.

Either go full blown 5th Gen internal carriage type.. or don't worry too much about the RCS/Drag penalties
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

https://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.com ... d.html?m=1

Examples of conformal and semi recessed.. including the 2x conformal mica on rafale.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Was expected. I don't know, but probably went up against the best - MiG-29UPG, Mirage 2000I and Su-30MKI.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 70019?s=20 ---> Total domination by Rafales at DACT exercises. #TACDE #FCL.

https://twitter.com/SuryaNa15862986/sta ... 10401?s=20 ---> DACT - Dissimilar Air Combat Training.
............................................................................TACDE - Tactics & Air Combat Development Establishment.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 87680?s=20 ---> FCL - Fighter Combat Leader.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

May cause takleef, because this is from Wolfpack :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 69354?s=20 ---> How Pakistan fears IAF's next surgical strike package may look like:

* 02 Rafales will blow a hole in Pak AD net using Hammer SOW's low level range advantage.
* 04 Rafales with Meteors to force PAF interceptors to go on the defensive by using high & fast BVR shots.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 37536?s=20 ---> All this will followed minutes later by a strike package armed with various SOWs like Spice and SAAW to strike the primary target(s), with the entire mission supported by various airborne and ground based jammers (including possibly Scorpius-G to blind the PAF AWACS, Comms, FCR).
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:Was expected. I don't know, but probably went up against the best - MiG-29UPG, Mirage 2000I and Su-30MKI.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 70019?s=20 ---> Total domination by Rafales at DACT exercises. #TACDE #FCL.

https://twitter.com/SuryaNa15862986/sta ... 10401?s=20 ---> DACT - Dissimilar Air Combat Training.
............................................................................TACDE - Tactics & Air Combat Development Establishment.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 87680?s=20 ---> FCL - Fighter Combat Leader.
The meteor gives the rafale a very serious edge. I wonder how it fares with micas and wvr.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by nachiket »

Cain Marko wrote: The meteor gives the rafale a very serious edge.
Along with the RBE-2 and Spectra. Good opportunity for the IAF to test various types of scenarios and measure performance of various systems in service. For example how the SAP-518 and DARE's D-29 perform against a modern AESA radar (RBE-2), Spectra against the S-400's multiple radars, SAP-518 and Spectra against the EL/M-2032, EL/M-2052 and Uttam if they can get their hands on the Tejas LSP which was being used for testing it. So many possibilities. Unfortunately for us all the results will be classified. I don't put much faith in these anonymous twitter handles. The information they post has a high probability of coming out of someone's musharraf. But now and then someone from the IAF may drop some hints during interviews. We should keep a watch.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by sivab »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -jet-deal/
Corruption claims threaten Emmanuel Macron’s fighter jet deal
...

The French government is bracing itself for claims arising during court hearings based on a lawsuit by the Indian defence consultant Sanjay Bhandari, who says he was hired by Thales to secure a €2.4bn contract to upgrade Mirage 2000 military jets for the Indian Air Force. The contract was signed in 2011.

Mr Bhandari is asking the court to order Thales to pay him commissions that he says he is owed. The lawsuit is ongoing and a judgement is expected later this year.

The case comes with Thales and a French consortium currently negotiating with the Indian government to sell more Rafale military jets.
...
In his claim, seen by The Telegraph, Mr Bhandari alleges that from 2008 he helped Thales sell the upgrade of the Mirage jets by facilitating a meeting with the then Indian Defence Secretary, KP Singh. He claims that he was due a consultancy fee of €20m but was only paid €9m.
...
Don't know whether to :rotfl: or :((
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

sivab wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -jet-deal/
Corruption claims threaten Emmanuel Macron’s fighter jet deal
...
Just wondering, are these guys trying to get Dassault blacklisted...? So that we can't order more Rafales...?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

Hmmmm, this is why RaGa so sure about curuption in Rafale purchase :rotfl:

Because he knew who the middle man was for the previous deal with the French company. :rotfl:

I think that RaGa has nicely exposed himself to a prosecution for curuption in Indian defence procurement cases itself.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi D »

LakshmanPST wrote:
Just wondering, are these guys trying to get Dassault blacklisted...? So that we can't order more Rafales...?
YES. That seems to be the game
By the way during the erstwhile MMRCA contest I believe that the person representing Eurojet Typhoon was close to "them".
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

Kersi D wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
Just wondering, are these guys trying to get Dassault blacklisted...? So that we can't order more Rafales...?
YES. That seems to be the game
By the way during the erstwhile MMRCA contest I believe that the person representing Eurojet Typhoon was close to "them".
Bhandari is close (awfully close) to Sonia gandi circles., is he using documents from the UPA era negotiations to blackmail/blacklist Thales and Dassault?

Perfect timing for polls., even if those fizzle out !!
Also a trial of "hitjob" for EF / Gripen and also rans
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 42881?s=20 ---> The final four Rafales to arrive India on 01 February 2022. This batch will be the first consisting dedicated Rafale F3R(I), fitted with India Specific Enhancements (ISE).

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 91937?s=20 ---> The airframes were involved in training programs in France and saw effective utilization during various flight tests. They will go through similar stage of testing after reaching India to assess the performance while operating in Indian conditions.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 93505?s=20 ---> The ISE involves several enhancements on standard Rafale F3R with inclusion of multiple new systems as well new mission-specific modes on systems to maximize efficiency.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 20641?s=20 ---> The ISE includes low band jammer pod, custom datalink, more capable radio altimeter, customized band radar warning receiver, high altitude engine start up, NCTR, SAR, GMTI/T and DBS modes for radar, training mode for MAWS, high frequency range towed decoys and HMD.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by rajsunder »

sivab wrote:Corruption claims threaten Emmanuel Macron’s fighter jet deal
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -jet-deal/
from the above article

Code: Select all

But talks are at a very delicate stage, because India could buy the F35 fighter jets from the US instead. 
When did this happen?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Not happened. And you should now realize why that angle is being pushed and who is doing the pushing :)

For the F-35 to arrive, either the S-400 will have to be shut down or returned. Why risk the platform (F-35) getting compromised (via S-400) for the US and all partner nations to sell F-35 to India? What is the plus in doing that? Lockheed Martin should not (and will not) do that. What message does that send to Turkey?

There is a high probability of additional Rafale sales to the IAF. If that occurs, the 114 MRFA contest is over. Thus the takleef.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Bishwa »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 42881?s=20 ---> The final four Rafales to arrive India on 01 February 2022. This batch will be the first consisting dedicated Rafale F3R(I), fitted with India Specific Enhancements (ISE).
Only one of the 4 left will be upgraded. That is a twinseater RB008

The rest will be upgraded in India at Ambala at rate of 3-4 per month as per reports

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

You are correct Bishwa-ji.

IAF Rafales (and perhaps Su-30s as well) will feature Rafael's (of Israel) towed decoy system called X-Guard.

Towed Decoys: Aircraft Self-Protection
https://www.defencexp.com/towed-decoys- ... rotection/
02 Feb 2021

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 90816?s=20 --->

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by YashG »

X-Post from the Light Utility Helicopter thread...
sanjayc wrote:
Modi govt scraps missile, chopper tenders to push 'Make in India'
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 469_1.html

The meeting, however, allowed the forces to go ahead with a deal to buy air-to-ground missiles from France and overhaul of Russian helicopters, government sources told ANI.
We're talking about Hammer here?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Yes to Hammer. That A2G missile is also going to be incorporated on the HAL Tejas.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Only one Rafale left (RB008, a twin seater) is left for delivery.

The three that were just handed over are still in France. Will make their way to India this month.

France hands over 3 Rafale fighter jets with India-specific enhancements to IAF
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 22359.html
01 Feb 2022
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

Question:-
I read in many places that India Specific Enhancements in the Rafale Deal is just one time payment...
While it is not clear what is included in the ISE, some of the items listed are things like Towed Decoy, High Altitude Cold Start, HMDS etc....
My question is, the amount we paid for ISE is for integration of these systems with the Rafale jets or does the amount include associated hardware as well...?
If it includes hardware, then ISE won't be a one time payment...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The first contract would have been a mixture of both - certification costs + hardware costs. So if any new Rafales are acquired, the only add-on ISE cost will be the hardware. There will be other costs (i.e. base infrastructure) as well, if Rafales are to have permanent home(s) other than Hasimara AFS and Ambala AFS.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/14964181 ... T22qw&s=19
Three more Rafale fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force reached India yesterday evening from France after taking off from a French airbase and landing directly in our country. The aircraft were provided aerial refueling support by the UAE Air Force.

With the arrival of these 3, India now received 35 of the 36 Rafales for which it had signed contract with France in Sept 2016. 36th aircraft will arrive in India from France after a few weeks. IAF ferried over 30 of these aircraft flying directly without any halts:Govt officials
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Must be quite a unique experience to fly Rafale non stop from France to India! I wish a documentary was made on this... to make us jingos happy
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

India pitches with France to become Rafale maintenance hub
https://bshnews.co.in/2022/03/06/india- ... nance-hub/
06 March 2022

India pitches with France to become Rafale maintenance hub
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/indi ... hub-459373
05 March 2022
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Atmavik »

^^ there will 150 odd Rafales in middle east and 42 in Indonesia. we will have 36 ( and hopefully 36 more) so this offer makes sense but will the french give up the profits
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

With a 2 front threat which can go active anytime, it's bizarre why the second tranche of Rafales hasn't been ordered or the Su-30 upgrade progressed.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Atmavik »

Karan M wrote:With a 2 front threat which can go active anytime, it's bizarre why the second tranche of Rafales hasn't been ordered or the Su-30 upgrade progressed.
even if we order them now we will be behind UAE, Egypt and Indonesia. some other countries might order based on current scenarios
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Prem »

AFAIK,There is no restriction that in Emergency, UAE cannot lease 36 of Rafales to India from their inventory even though they are without ISEs.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cybaru »

Prem wrote:AFAIK,There is no restriction that in Emergency, UAE cannot lease 36 of Rafales to India from their inventory even though they are without ISEs.
No one is going to lease anything when war is looming and the world is changing.. Qatar selling the 12 used M2Ks may have dropped lower in probability as well.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:With a 2 front threat which can go active anytime, it's bizarre why the second tranche of Rafales hasn't been ordered or the Su-30 upgrade progressed.
If India is pushing for a regional maintenance hub - so a MROU (Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul & Upgrade) complex - then additional Rafales are likely. Dassault will not agree to such a facility if additional Rafale orders are not placed and it will have to be a significant order. So more back-and-forth negotiations between the GOI and France (Dassault) on what constitutes a significant order. If the Navy chooses the Rafale M, then the odds of getting a MROU facility jumps higher.

Instead of starting at the number zero (for a repeat Rafale order), the Navy order will add a significant chunk to any IAF follow-on Rafale order. Therefore 26 for the Navy + 36 (or perhaps 54 or even 72) for the IAF makes the MROU facility more financially attractive for Dassault to establish. Air Marshal Sandeep Singh, the present VCAS, has commented that the MRFA acquisition is back on track and was delayed due to COVID. See link below from 1:05 in the video;

https://twitter.com/Leopard212/status/1 ... bZkaUZR41g

The problem I am seeing, is there no money for 114 of them. But a combined Navy order of 26 and X order for IAF might convince Dassault that it is financially profitable to establish such a MROU facility. Also with the joint Safran-GTRE venture (yet again!) over a new 110kN turbofan for the AMCA, this might be another feather in the cap for such a facility to be established in India. Significant backroom, closed door, not-open-to-public discussions are happening between France and India, as the Safran-GTRE joint venture was a surprise announcement. A formal signed agreement is due sometime this year.

Nothing will move on the full-fledged Su-30 upgrade, till the MRFA contest is completed. The IAF does not want to sign anything that will divert funds away from the MRFA acquisition. So the Super Sukhoi upgrade will languish. You will know far more on that program, then I ever would :) Although I have read that many sub-systems are being tested and incorporated. I remember reading a blurb about Air Chief Marshal Bhadauria doing a flight on a Su-30MKI at ASTE before he retired.

Forgive this mango abdul for jumping into your area of expertise, but I would like to see the Rambha have a scaled up Uttam AESA with Astra Mk1, Mk2 and other Indian weaponry. If we can do a significant chunk - if not all - of the upgrade with Indian maal, it will make the Rambha upgrade much more financially attractive. Is that possible or do we really have to go to Russia for the SS upgrade? Perhaps this is an apples to oranges comparison, but if we did the BrahMos integration and upgrade on the Rambha ourselves, is it impossible to do the SS upgrade inhouse?

As much as the Rafale is needed for a very valuable role in the IAF, to me the SS upgrade is equally important. We have nearly 300 of them. And with Russia embroiled in the Ukraine conflict, I am not sure how interested they would be in investing manpower and resources to upgrade the IAF's Su-30MKIs. An in-house upgrade, IMVHO, is the best path forward. Assuming that is feasible.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

A nice article on the Rafale. Do read....

The Rafale fighter jet is a warplane with a ‘French touch’
https://www.popsci.com/military/french- ... explained/
07 March 2022
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Mort Walker »

Karan M wrote:With a 2 front threat which can go active anytime, it's bizarre why the second tranche of Rafales hasn't been ordered or the Su-30 upgrade progressed.
After Balakot and Galwan, one would think this would be a priority.

The government should move along with the Rafale and Tejas as the Su-30 upgrades from Russia will be delayed for a number years due to their economic contraction.

If the NDA doesn’t come back in 2024, the BIF will not allow any acquisitions or domestic production.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by SidSoma »

Atmavik wrote:^^ there will 150 odd Rafales in middle east and 42 in Indonesia. we will have 36 ( and hopefully 36 more) so this offer makes sense but will the french give up the profits
TBH, I dont think this is about profits, but the capability to maintain the planes in house. To stock up the spares and have the skill level in house to maintain the planes even when logistic chains are disrupted. This is more strategic than commercial. The commercial benefits are just icing on the cake
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Mort Walker wrote:After Balakot and Galwan, one would think this would be a priority.

The government should move along with the Rafale and Tejas as the Su-30 upgrades from Russia will be delayed for a number years due to their economic contraction.

If the NDA doesn’t come back in 2024, the BIF will not allow any acquisitions or domestic production.
Significant backroom, closed door, not-open-to-public discussions are happening between France and India, as the Safran-GTRE joint venture (for the 110kN turbofan) was a surprise announcement. A formal signed agreement is due sometime this year. Media report on a MROU for the Rafale is also another example. I am not sure who in India - as per the news report - is requesting for this facility, but my assumption would be the GOI. Dassault will not agree to such a facility, without more Rafale orders.

There is also the Navy competition (between the F-18SH and the Rafale M) that has to be completed. Once that is over and assuming the Rafale M wins, negotiations will then move a bit quicker. This has to be dealt with very carefully, as the opposition will pounce the moment additional Rafales are ordered by the GOI for the IAF.

The Tejas program right now is focused on getting the 83 Mk1A order going. First flight is scheduled for June of this year and the first pair is due for delivery in 24 months. Not sure how far HAL is progressing on that front. Additional Mk1A units (at least two) is sorely needed. The Tejas Mk2 will get the GE F414 turbofan, as per a recent statement by the DRDO Chief. First flight is supposed to be in 2024.

Super Sukhoi is on hold till the MRFA contest is completed. The IAF is unwilling to commit her meagre resources on anything else at the moment. While understandable, that is sad. The IAF has nearly 300 of them and they really need to be upgraded ASAP.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Where did my post go? :D
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

viveks wrote:Where did my post go? :D
Right here Saar ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7703&start=80#p2540305
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Listen to both these episodes from a legendary Mirage 2000 pilot of the Indian Air Force.

I am posting this in here, because it will give you a good insight why the IAF naturally went in for the Mirage 2000's successor --- the Rafale.

https://blueskiespodcast.com/episodes

Check episodes titled, Raghu Nambiar - Part 1: Mirage 2000 and LCA and Raghu Nambiar - Part 2: Mirage and LGBs in Kargil

The French really do a fantastic job in designing and manufacturing fighter aircraft.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote: Significant backroom, closed door, not-open-to-public discussions are happening between France and India, as the Safran-GTRE joint venture (for the 110kN turbofan) was a surprise announcement. A formal signed agreement is due sometime this year. Media report on a MROU for the Rafale is also another example. I am not sure who in India - as per the news report - is requesting for this facility, but my assumption would be the GOI. Dassault will not agree to such a facility, without more Rafale orders.

There is also the Navy competition (between the F-18SH and the Rafale M) that has to be completed. Once that is over and assuming the Rafale M wins, negotiations will then move a bit quicker. This has to be dealt with very carefully, as the opposition will pounce the moment additional Rafales are ordered by the GOI for the IAF.

The Tejas program right now is focused on getting the 83 Mk1A order going. First flight is scheduled for June of this year and the first pair is due for delivery in 24 months. Not sure how far HAL is progressing on that front. Additional Mk1A units (at least two) is sorely needed. The Tejas Mk2 will get the GE F414 turbofan, as per a recent statement by the DRDO Chief. First flight is supposed to be in 2024.

Super Sukhoi is on hold till the MRFA contest is completed. The IAF is unwilling to commit her meagre resources on anything else at the moment. While understandable, that is sad. The IAF has nearly 300 of them and they really need to be upgraded ASAP.
Few things Admiralji:
1. Hope that you're right and additional raffles are on the cards. Although I'm not sure about getting production facilities for a 4 Gen fighter. Maybe it's quid pro quo for engine.
2. To some extent I understand iaf reluctance to upgrade mki just yet. The bird still is ahead of everything in the neighborhood. F26, j10 ityadi. A decent limited maws upg would help though. Plus it continues to get all Desi weapons first. Radar wise, it's still ahead of the competition. Iirc the mki had received limited radar updates and the mk3 mki only really came into the picture post 2010. Another few years, they can still make do.
Anujan
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Anujan »

Old news but interesting:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3213 ... t-joyride/

A French defense contractor riding in a Dassault fighter learned the hard way that the grab bar next to his seat was actually the ejection handle.


A French defense-industry employee about to retire was gifted something he was extremely reluctant to accept: a ride in a Dassault fighter jet.
The 64-year-old was not correctly instructed, to say the least, in passenger etiquette, and to make a long story short, he self-ejected midflight.
He's okay, according to the government's incident report

In a growing cascade of colossal fails, the next one was actually fortuitous: the pilot's own ejection seat malfunctioned. When either the fore or aft seat in a Rafale is triggered, the second one is supposed to follow automatically, on the theory that if one crew member makes an unscheduled departure, there's probably a good reason for the other to promptly join the exodus. And indeed, after the world's unhappiest retiree bid adieu, pyrotechnics blew a hole in the pilot's canopy. But the first ejection damaged the front seat, such that it didn't eject, and the pilot was actually able to land his now al fresco fighter jet. At which point the pilot beat feet away from the aircraft, for fear that the dud seat would, like so many flights, take off late
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