VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi D »

Rakesh wrote:Something to think about....

Ask Air HQ to place a triple digit order for Tejas Mk2, along with 114 MRFA. Watch the reaction.
India needs 200-250 Rafales to maintain edge: Arup Raha
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/hHJn9 ... -Raha.html
28 Dec 2016
Just ask IAF to spend on additional Tejas the same amount they want to spend on their new proposed toys
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi D »

Cybaru wrote:I think those IL-76 birds have another 20-30 years of life in them left. They will need to be refurbished but I don't think they will be scrapped or should be scrapped.
Will we get spares for next 10 years ?
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

Kersi D wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Something to think about....

Ask Air HQ to place a triple digit order for Tejas Mk2, along with 114 MRFA. Watch the reaction.
India needs 200-250 Rafales to maintain edge: Arup Raha
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/hHJn9 ... -Raha.html
28 Dec 2016
Just ask IAF to spend on additional Tejas the same amount they want to spend on their new proposed toys
No ., he does not say that

This is what he said ., " Raha said India has enough of heavy weight fighters—the Su30 MKI—which will last for another 30-40 years. He said the light weight spectrum would be served by the 123 Tejas light combat aircraft ordered by the IAF. Terming Rafale as an excellent aircraft, Raha said it comes in the medium weight spectrum.

“It is tremendously capable in all its role. It is a multi-role aircraft and can be used very effectively. It can prove its worth in any situation," Raha said. “But we have just ordered 36 aircraft and we require more aircraft in this middle weight category to give entire spectrum of capability," he said
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Used Google translate, so the grammer is not the best. I fixed some of grammer translation errors.

But the article makes some interesting claims (I bolded them). Disclaimer: This is the French view. Take it in that spirit :)

GREEN SIGNALS FOR THE DASSAULT AVIATION RAFALE F4 IN INDIA
https://www-avionslegendaires-net.trans ... r_pto=wapp
12 June 2022

Of course we must not sell the skin of the bear before the plane killed. However, several Indian media are now moving towards a French victory as part of the MMRCA 2.0 program aimed at providing one hundred and fourteen fighters to the Indian Air Force. The omni-role Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 would therefore prevail over the seven competitors in a contract on which the concept of Atmanirbhar Bharat also known as Make-in India would allow local industry to assemble the bulk of the machinery. There is even talk of a contract signing between the end of the summer and the beginning of the fall.

For the record, in addition to the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4, the machines in competition within the framework of the MMRCA 2.0 are the following: Airbus DS Typhoon Tranche 4, Boeing F-15EX Eagle II, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed-Martin F-21 Super Viper, Mikoyan MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, Saab JAS 39E/F Gripen and Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E. Not that the French plane is necessarily better than the others, perhaps it is simply more suited to Indian needs than its challengers. Above all, she has a big advantage over them: the pilots of the Indian Air Force who already know it to use it on a daily basis. And that's the best argument, the Rafale F4 being considered a game changer by the Indian staff.

For the record, the MMRCA 2.0 program should make it possible to replace the latest Mikoyan-Gurevitch MiG-21 Fishbed as quickly as possible. These antediluvian supersonic jets dated from the Soviet era currently have very bad press in India. They are rightly accused of being widow makers. The other aircraft in the crosshairs is the SEPECAT Jaguar IS, the Indian version of the famous Franco-British attack aircraft also dating from the Cold War. Finally apart, the oldest specimens, of Mikoyan MiG-29 Fulcrum must also be replaced. Suffice to say that the Russian planes were not winning, and that was before the war in Ukraine.

Even if India has not condemned the Russian military action against Ukrainian sovereignty, it is undeniable that the facts do not plead in favor of the MiG-35 Fulcrum-F and the Su-35 Flanker-E. The first was simply not engaged, and the second did not shine there. They were unable to ensure complete air superiority there. Yet this is supposed to be its strong point. At the same time, the announcement of the Mikoyan-Sukhoi merger within UAC adds confusion: which of the two combat aircraft is now favored by the Russian giant? We don't know, and so do the Indians, no doubt.

The more time passes, the more it seems proven, always if we are to believe the Indian media, both financial and aeronautical, that the Airbus DS and Saab planes have not proven anything valid. The Indian experts even let it be understood that the JAS 39E/F Gripen would, according to them, bring nothing compared to the native-built HAL Tejas. Personally, I would tend to think that the Swedish aircraft could have brought reliability that is sorely lacking in the Indian aircraft.

That leaves Boeing and its two planes: the F-15EX Eagle II and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. There also apparently they were not convinced, for two main reasons each. For the first it, is because the aircraft is too new, not well known enough, and above all it is not yet used operationally in the United States. For the second, the cause is more structural: in the eyes of the generals of the Indian Air Force, she is a naval hunter. They therefore do not imagine acquiring an aircraft that the Indian Navy could fly or failing to profit from the Dassault Aviation Rafale M.

So only the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 and this mysterious Lockheed-Martin F-21 Super Viper remain. In fact this one is an Indian version of the famous F-16V Viper developed from the legendary General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon. Lockheed-Martin has joined the aeronautical branch of the industrial and agri-food giant Tata in order to respect the Atmanirbhar Bharat as much as possible. This economic theory was created and supported by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and is therefore based for the MMRCA 2.0 program on local assembly of selected aircraft. Dassault Aviation, for its part, seems increasingly associated with the historic Indian aircraft manufacturer HAL.

The MMRCA 2.0 is based on one hundred and fourteen aircraft, thirty-six of which will be built by the winning aircraft manufacturer in its factories. If Dassault Aviation therefore wins in the coming weeks, these machines will be born in Mérignac. The seventy-eight remaining planes being the responsibility of the Indian industrial partner. And in this little game HAL seems to have the advantage since it has really been an aircraft manufacturer (and helicopter manufacturer) for many years while Tata is only a subcontractor, limiting itself just to the production of drones. Yes, Dassault Aviation and its Rafale F4 have every reason to be ordered by the Indians whose old planes are starting to really weigh.

You will have understood: nothing is done yet! However, all the lights are green for another victory for the Rafale in India. And as usual, the French aircraft manufacturer is playing the radio silence card. Case to follow.
Luxtor
BRFite
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Sep 2003 11:31
Location: Earth ... but in a parallel universe

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Luxtor »

For every M2K in our inventory + every Rafale that we will eventually have we need to order at least 2.5x the number of Tejas. This will allow us to retire the MiG-21's and Jaguars. Re-engining and upgrading the avionics on the Jaguars is ultimately good money thrown away on dying or dead platform. Why is it that India is only one of a very few countries that still operate MiG-21's and Jaguars in the year 2022 when most other countries that had them have long since retired them decades ago. Long time perspective & planning has been almost nil in the Indian armed forces and gov't, maybe up until just recently. We are paying for this neglect from the past, scrambling to bring up our numbers and capabilities. War can start at anytime, ... just ask the Ukrainians and Taiwanese too if the Chicoms decide that the time is right in the months or a few short years to come. I think the reasons that the Chinese and the Pukies haven't imposed war on us jointly, are entirely of external or global factors, not necessarily because of Indian deterrent. We can't continue like this as we have in our traditional past. We need to acquire numbers and capabilities in weapon systems and platforms on a war footing and not pussyfooting with local manufacturing and demand for technology transfers on large scales. Technology transfers are never exactly that; just more screwdrivergiri under varying degrees. We need to develop our own systems in a coordinated, well thought out manner. Whatever it takes to build up the numbers across the board is what we need to do, including local manufacturing if it could be done quickly just as much as buying directly from the OEMs. We need to wean ourselves off of most Soviet/Russian stuff we have and just pick and choose the few effective ones to keep the westerners' unchecked arm twisting tendencies at bay, so that we're not totally dependant them. We will be no one's ally or enemy in the geo-strategic/political arena. We only care about ourselves.
viveks
BRFite
Posts: 341
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 06:01

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Luxtor wrote:Why is it that India is only one of a very few countries that still operate MiG-21's and Jaguars in the year 2022 when most other countries that had them have long since retired them decades ago.
If they are still making use of our great Ambassidor vehicle with isuzu engine that can even run on kerosine, then what is the harm in still using the Mig-21? Personally, I would love it if a Jaguar locks on to a Rafale and takes it down! Would love to see those guys red faced!
Luxtor wrote: War can start at anytime. I think the reasons that the Chinese and the Pukies haven't imposed war on us jointly, are entirely of external or global factors, not necessarily because of Indian deterrent.
That is true. After all, war is imposed basically due to monitory gains...but would really hate to see it happen to our beautiful motherland that has so many wonderful rivers and tributories and tropical forest with a variety of flora and fauna.
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi D »

Luxtor wrote: I think the reasons that the Chinese and the Pukies haven't imposed war on us jointly, are entirely of external or global factors, not necessarily because of Indian deterrent.
I would not fully agree.

We have suffered too but we have always given the Pukes and Chinks a bloody nose, besides of course the loss of face.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5461
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Everyone needs to learn pole dancing on their own in this new multipolar world. Since we have told the world in very clear terms that we have our own pole and we can give you the pole ie bumboo if needed, better stock up and keep the powder dry, lots of it.

I.e. whatever aircraft we may make or buy in future, we have to carefully mothball the ones we may retire, with spares and fuel in reserve for 50-100 sorties per airframe, along with a roster of experienced technicians and pilots - though they may type convert away to new toys, they must periodically get into the old Fishbeds, ride on Bahadurs and take the jaguars out for a spin.

If the ongoing war has taught us something it's to expect it to be long and your enemies to form gang.
konaseema
BRFite
Posts: 115
Joined: 16 Nov 2020 09:54

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by konaseema »

Luxtor wrote:For every M2K in our inventory + every Rafale that we will eventually have we need to order at least 2.5x the number of Tejas. This will allow us to retire the MiG-21's and Jaguars. Re-engining and upgrading the avionics on the Jaguars is ultimately good money thrown away on dying or dead platform. Why is it that India is only one of a very few countries that still operate MiG-21's and Jaguars in the year 2022 when most other countries that had them have long since retired them decades ago. Long time perspective & planning has been almost nil in the Indian armed forces and gov't, maybe up until just recently. We are paying for this neglect from the past, scrambling to bring up our numbers and capabilities. War can start at anytime, ... just ask the Ukrainians and Taiwanese too if the Chicoms decide that the time is right in the months or a few short years to come. I think the reasons that the Chinese and the Pukies haven't imposed war on us jointly, are entirely of external or global factors, not necessarily because of Indian deterrent. We can't continue like this as we have in our traditional past. We need to acquire numbers and capabilities in weapon systems and platforms on a war footing and not pussyfooting with local manufacturing and demand for technology transfers on large scales. Technology transfers are never exactly that; just more screwdrivergiri under varying degrees. We need to develop our own systems in a coordinated, well thought out manner. Whatever it takes to build up the numbers across the board is what we need to do, including local manufacturing if it could be done quickly just as much as buying directly from the OEMs. We need to wean ourselves off of most Soviet/Russian stuff we have and just pick and choose the few effective ones to keep the westerners' unchecked arm twisting tendencies at bay, so that we're not totally dependant them. We will be no one's ally or enemy in the geo-strategic/political arena. We only care about ourselves.

In my humble opinion, China & Pakistan haven't imposed war on us either individually or collectively for entirely different reasons. China is not ready / can't see an outright victory and Pakistan can't afford it & can never win. As much as the Paki's have had shorter fuses in the past, they have a pragmatic COAS in Gen Bajwa, who may be thinking of self preservation compared to their rabid ex-PM Niazi. For one, I will be very happy if we end up with 10-12 squadron each of Tejas Mk1/A & Mk2. On the MRFA saga, I wouldn't be surprised if the Indian govt forces a triangular contest between F-15EX, Rafale & Typhoon. Going by the last minute offer that was 20% lower by Eurofighter Typhoon in the earlier version of this tamasha, we can expect all three forced to lower their price to gain our business.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

We should soon hear good news on Rafale front.

Basically IAF is resource starved for various reasons..
As the French guy put it, Rafale meets Indian needs. Buying anything else adds to logistic burden for IAF.
So I expect some large numbers with a mix of import and mostly make in India.
*After triggering riots via Qatar and periodic blow cold blow hot on FATF, it's ridiculous to bat or US planes.

The big picture is PLAAF.
Roop
BRFite
Posts: 664
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Roop »

ramana wrote:We should soon hear good news on Rafale front. ... So I expect some large numbers with a mix of import and mostly make in India.
Aap ke muh me ghee-shakkar, Ramanji!
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:We should soon hear good news on Rafale front.
The rumour mills are churning again. But they are only rumours. Nothing is confirmed, despite what the French media are claiming. Dassault and France are tight lipped and NaMo never reveals his hand early. In this scenario, the adage holds true - too many cooks spoil the soup.

What is confirmed is that the current batch of 36 Rafales have been made capable of delivering a nuclear payload. The IAF is looking for the same with the 114 MRFA. The Americans will not allow that on their aircraft. Same with Build-A-Box (IKEA style) Gripen. The less said about the Euro consortium the better. That leaves only the Rafale for 114 MRFA.

The game changer in the Navy’s MRCBF contest would be integration of BrahMos-NG on Rafale M or F-18SH. It would negate the need for the Harpoon AShM or the abysmally low range Exocet AShM. BrahMos-NG will be - at the least - equal (if not better) devastation in addition to being cheaper to acquire.

In public, Boeing is pulling out all the stops with the F-15EX and the F-18SH. In comparison, Dassault is eerily silent. Empty-vessels-make-the-most-sound might appear to be apt in this scenario, but claiming a Dassault win will be akin to putting the cart before the horse.

So the only thing to do is wait…
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2904
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cybaru »

Kersi D wrote:
Cybaru wrote:I think those IL-76 birds have another 20-30 years of life in them left. They will need to be refurbished but I don't think they will be scrapped or should be scrapped.
Will we get spares for next 10 years ?
Should be possible.. line is still active
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Look just what popped up on Safran's presentation.... :) 200+ :mrgreen:

Apart from Tejas, Hammer is also coming on the Tejas. MBDA is also open to integrating Meteor on Astra Mk1A (but with Uttam AESA). Just right in time, when Astra Mk2 and SFDR are on the cusp. But still a good move.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... qHoGxHa6Cw ---> Seems most missed this during a recent slide presentation made by Safran at the newly opened plants at HYD & BLR. This concerns the order by IAF for Safran's AASM Hammer for Rafale. What we don't know is the version & exact quantities, but as they mention -- at least 200 of them!

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Safran: Rafale's Snecma M88 engine exceeds one million operating hours
https://frontierindia.com/safran-rafale ... ing-hours/
13 July 2022

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... Z6NC2cH17A ---> Rafale’s @SafranEngines M88 engine passes one million operating hours. Currently working on F4 Standard of M88, which will power Rafales deployed by France & UAE. To date, 284 aircraft have been sold to 7 export customers: Egypt, Qatar, India, Greece, Croatia, UAE & Indonesia.

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

India stations Rafale fighters at Leh, sends tough message to China
https://www.etvbharat.com/english/natio ... 0366366234
13 July 2022
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5720
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote:Look just what popped up on Safran's presentation.... :) 200+ :mrgreen:

Apart from Tejas, Hammer is also coming on the Tejas. MBDA is also open to integrating Meteor on Astra Mk1A (but with Uttam AESA). Just right in time, when Astra Mk2 and SFDR are on the cusp. But still a good move.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... qHoGxHa6Cw ---> Seems most missed this during a recent slide presentation made by Safran at the newly opened plants at HYD & BLR. This concerns the order by IAF for Safran's AASM Hammer for Rafale. What we don't know is the version & exact quantities, but as they mention -- at least 200 of them!
As per the SIPRI database, India bought 300 Hammer AASM PGMs from France, while SAFRAN mentions 200+. Insufficient for overall requirements, so this must've been followed up by the second order for Tejas fighters as well.
(200) Storm Shadow/SCALP ASM 2017 2020-2021 (170) Part of EUR710 m deal; SCALP version; for Rafale combat aircraft
(300) AASM Hammer ASM 2020 2020-2021 (160) For Rafale combat aircraft
13 Mirage-2000 FGA aircraft 2021 Second-hand; EUR27 m deal (incl 11 more for spare parts); Mirage-2000C version (incl Mirage-2000D trainer/combat version); probably modernized after delivery with kits from France
493 MICA BVRAAM 2012 2014-2021 (493) EUR950 m deal (offsets 30%); MICA-EM and MICA-IR versions; for Mirage-2000-5 combat aircraft
(350) MICA BVRAAM 2017 2021 (150) Part of EUR710 m deal; MICA-RF and MICA-IR versions; for Rafale combat aircraft
and 200 Meteors from UK, of which 110 were delivered by 2021. ASRAAM numbers are not mentioned as it is to be license produced in India by BDL.
(200) Meteor BVRAAM 2017 2020-2021 (110) Part of EUR710 m deal; for Rafale combat aircraft; sold via France
ASRAAM BVRAAM 2014 Incl production under licence in India; Indian designation NGCCM
We bought 200 SCALP ALCMs with the 36 Rafales.

India also bought 493 MICA missiles (not specified how many IR and EM) for the Mirage-2000I upgrades, all of which were delivered by 2021. Additionally 350 more MICA missiles were bought with the 36 Rafales of which ~150 were delivered by 2021.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Folks, why are we discussing everything except Rafales in this thread?
Most of the discussion belongs to the IAF thread.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Folks, why are we discussing everything except Rafales in this thread?
Most of the discussion belongs to the IAF thread.
Sorry, Ramana-ji....I have moved the recent discussions to the IAF thread.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Thanks!!!
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... MzFp7w9GLQ ---> Keeping the tradition of soldiering alive; from one generation to another. Squadron Leader Mihir Chaudhari, an IAF Rafale pilot in the Eastern sector, flew an operational sortie accompanied by his father and the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... MzFp7w9GLQ ---> Father and son flight. IAF Chief, ACM VR Chaudhari flew a sortie on Rafale aircraft as part of three aircraft combat training mission at Air Force Station Hasimara with his son, Squadron Leader Mihir V Chaudhari. Wow!

Image

Image

Image

Image
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Looks like VRS VRC is reconciled to Rafale as MRFA!!!

BTW, French FM is on way to negotiate for more Rafales.
Last edited by ramana on 13 Sep 2022 05:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by Ramana
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... __vEUY9wAQ ---> Sale of more Rafales to India may be on agenda of French Foreign minister, during her trip to India this week.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... __vEUY9wAQ ---> Sale of more Rafales to India may be on agenda of French Foreign minister, during her trip to India this week.
French Foreign Minister Catherine Colonna's predecessor Jean-Yves Le Drian was the Defence Minister, when India and France signed the deal for 36 Rafales in Sept 2016. If he is part of the delegation, expect some significant news to come out by the end of this year or next. He just demitted office as Foreign Minister in May of this year. He is well versed with the Indian requirement, in both the MRFA and MRCBF contests.

Any future Rafales will feature the F4 upgrade, as part of the deal. The French have offered the F4 variant of the Rafale M to compete against the F-18 Super Hornet Block III in the Indian Navy's MRCBF contest.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

This visit above could likely tie in to this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2553763
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Looks like VRS is reconciled to Rafale as MRFA!!!

BTW, French FM is on way to negotiate for more Rafales.
That is the aircraft that Air HQ wants. What point would any other 4th generation aircraft serve, after billions were spent on the ISE?

Ramana-ji - who is VRS? Or do you mean VRC?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Yes VRC. Typed VRS as Fraudian slip!
AdityaM
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by AdityaM »

just saw 4 Rafale flying over my house in delhi. same thing happened yesterday.
I wonder why they are buzzing new delhi
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

AdityaM wrote:just saw 4 Rafale flying over my house in delhi. same thing happened yesterday.
I wonder why they are buzzing new delhi
Reminding Politicos and MOD babus of what the IAF wants perhaps?
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by sum »

:rotfl: :rotfl:
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

If you follow the news in depth it is IAF that wants MRFA ( taht means some other plane that Rafale). If in doubt follow shooklaw to know which plane is being pimped.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

There is no other plane, other than Rafale that the IAF wants.

More importantly, there is no other plane that the IAF can operate in a cost effective manner.

Rafale is what they want. If the F-35 was in the mix, then your above argument can hold some credence.
Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4513
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Tanaji »

Rakesh wrote:There is no other plane, other than Rafale that IAF wants.

More importantly, there is no other plane that the IAF can operate in a cost effective manner.

Rafale is what they want. If the F-35 was in the mix, then your above argument can hold some credence.
Cost effectiveness is not a concern for IAF I think. If it was then we would have seen orders for 200 Mk 1a and loading up on Astra and related missiles.

I think there may be 2 groups in the fighter lobby inside IAF, one angling for Rafale and the other for an American fighter, with each group supported by respective broker gang. Ever since the Rafale won, the other gang has been itching to get into action, and Shook Law being just the visible face.

On another note, any holistic view would prioritise the acquisition of 8 x AEW such as Netra, and at least a dozen air refuellers using the money saved from the MRFA boon doggle.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Tanaji wrote:Cost effectiveness is not a concern for IAF I think. If it was then we would have seen orders for 200 Mk 1a and loading up on Astra and related missiles.
It is a concern, if Air HQ wants any additional phoren fighters. Even they know that 114 phoren MRFA is not coming. That will not stop them for arguing for it though.

Local maal and Air HQ are a different ball game. Local maal has to jump through multiple hoops by Air HQ, something that phoren maal does not have to endure.
Tanaji wrote:I think there may be 2 groups in the fighter lobby inside IAF, one angling for Rafale and the other for an American fighter, with each group supported by respective broker gang. Ever since the Rafale won, the other gang has been itching to get into action, and Shook Law being just the visible face.

On another note, any holistic view would prioritise the acquisition of 8 x AEW such as Netra, and at least a dozen air refuellers using the money saved from the MRFA boon doggle.
However many groups - with opinions - exist in the IAF, it will make little difference at the end of the day.

The only American fighter that beats the Rafale, is the F-15EX. The CAPEX of the F-15EX is expensive and the OPEX even more so. The F-18SH will not make the cut. The F-21 while attractive, is no game changer over the Rafale. Any other fighter, other than Rafale and what will the IAF do with the ISE investment + base infrastructure at Hasimara and Ambala?

Shukla (and his crones hidden behind him) can peddle whatever they want, it is going to fall on deaf ears. The budget reality will not permit 114 phoren MRFA. Unless Shukla (and his coterie) want to start a Go Fund Me campaign for the IAF''s MRFA venture, there is no American fighter coming in triple digits. And anything less than 100 aircraft, then no OEM will transfer an assembly line to India.

Forget the minimum $20 billion required to fund this asinine venture, the GOI does not even have $10 billion just lying around to fund this.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

Admiral logic has nothing to do with it. Motive yes!!
Can the motive be questioned? I leave the answer to you.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Yes fanne, illogical things have occurred in the past and could very well repeat itself in the future.

However, some facts cannot be changed (unless the OEM is in a generous mood) and agrees India to do screwdrivergiri on an order of less than 100 aircraft OR instead of 114 MRFA, a small token order of 54 aircraft of the F-15EX or some other MRFA. So a repeat scenario of the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 acquisition of the 1980s.

However, 114 MRFA at anything less than $20 billion is not going to happen. Motive = Budget.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Great news below! Rafale just got a massive boost in the MRFA and MRCBF contests.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) to commence the integration of Astra air-to-air missile and Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) on Dassault Rafale F3R fighter aircraft acquired by Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> In a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) signed between BDL and Dassault Aviation during Defence Expo 2022 on Thursday, it is formally announced that integration of the indigenous systems is for both Indian Air Force and export customers of the Rafale aircraft.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... HH17Cog---> Astra family of air-to-air missiles are indigenously designed by Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) with Mk1 variant already in service with IAF Su-30MKI fleet, while Mk2 and SFDR variants are in development. It will complement the MICA EM and Meteor AAMs.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) is a precision guided anti-airfield with a range upto 100 kilometres. It is already in service with Jaguar fleet of strike fighters.

https://twitter.com/CMDBDL/status/15830 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> BDL and Dassault Aviation Pvt Ltd entered into MoU for integration of BDL Weapon Systems like Astra & SAAW on Rafale aircraft for Indian Armed Forces. The MoU will also open avenues for export to friendly countries.

Image

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) to commence the integration of Astra air-to-air missile and Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) on Dassault Rafale F3R fighter aircraft acquired by Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> In a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) signed between BDL and Dassault Aviation during Defence Expo 2022 on Thursday, it is formally announced that integration of the indigenous systems is for both Indian Air Force and export customers of the Rafale aircraft.
Astra was logical. It was bound to happen. Dassault can the see the writing on the wall. No point in being obtuse with India, but partnering is the better path forward. No need for expensive Meteor, when future Astra variants can do the same thing for cheaper. This is the beauty of buying French and even Russian maal. The Amreekis will be hard pressed to agree to this on their platforms.

SAAW came as a surprise to me though, but it makes perfect sense actually.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12186
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

A great development, no longer will we need to go to France for emergency procurement of munitions any more.

As i am sure that these 2 will be the first of many Indian missiles integrated with the platform.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

Hope down the line., the Rafale progressively gets MKIsed with Indian sensors and weapons
Post Reply