VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 22:05

Singha wrote:TOI
Sources said Dassault Aviation has already started test flig ..

Of the Indian Rafale...

For a second there, I thought TOI was reporting that Dassault Aviation was test flying a Kaveri :)

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 506
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2018 22:47

Karan M wrote:Rakesh, I will bet this MRCA 2.0 fracas will ultimately be cancelled if NaMO is back, common sense will predominate and we will buy another 36-50 odd Rafales.


Under the present circumstances, it would be extremely difficult but not impossible to justify a Government to Government deal on additional Rafales outside of a laid out procurement procedure (aka MRCA 2.0) even if Modi is reelected. It would be possible only if the next government can come up with a compelling reason that can be easily communicated to the lay Indian public. What would that be? OTOH, I would argue that if there is a compelling reason, it should be used to get Rafales within MRCA 2.0 itself, and get them in 1XX numbers.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1213
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 09 Sep 2018 23:00

We are in a peculiar situation.

Buying anything other than rafale in mmrc2.0 will be flagged as proof of scam!

If we buy, it has to be locally built or assembled. Dassault doesn't want to build with hal.. cannot do with reliance after so much ho..ha ..

It may have to form dassualt India plant. A expensive proposition, paid by GoI.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19535
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 10 Sep 2018 01:14

Not necessarily .The cost factor alone and delayed LCA prod. is one reason for the contest.But the criticism - quite valid , is that birds rejected in the first MMRCA contest are again in the fray! On what basis thus can they be found to be superior to the Rafale? Technically, other than the reported sudden entry of the SU-35, all the birds are of the same stock.Whatever improvements have taken place in the last 5 years will require another bout of flight evaluation and further delays in deciding the winner
pushing up the eventual price even higher if the rupee slides even further.

The answer is really quite simple to make up the shortfall in IAF numbers and sqd. strength." More of the same" already in service and if in production.More MKIs to SS BMos std., perhaps in the med. category a few more MIG-29/35s, faster accelerated LCA prod. with one more prod. unit to replace the hundreds of MIG -21s and more Jags for CS/ GA in addition to the upgrade of all of them, plus extra Rafales when affordable.The rupee's slide is going making firang buys even more expensive by the day so the IAF must get realistic and not dream for the moon.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 10 Sep 2018 01:53

Philip: No MiG-29!!!

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 04:25

Y I Patel wrote:
Karan M wrote:Rakesh, I will bet this MRCA 2.0 fracas will ultimately be cancelled if NaMO is back, common sense will predominate and we will buy another 36-50 odd Rafales.


Under the present circumstances, it would be extremely difficult but not impossible to justify a Government to Government deal on additional Rafales outside of a laid out procurement procedure (aka MRCA 2.0) even if Modi is reelected. It would be possible only if the next government can come up with a compelling reason that can be easily communicated to the lay Indian public. What would that be? OTOH, I would argue that if there is a compelling reason, it should be used to get Rafales within MRCA 2.0 itself, and get them in 1XX numbers.


The compelling reason will be fairly simple, the MRCA 2.0 will turn out to be a trainwreck of delays, squadron numbers will decline, and 2nd tranche of Rafales will turn out to be cheaper than tranche 1 given the base cost and infra cost for testing kit, support equipment etc would have been substantially amortized thanks to the investment in tranche 1. IAF expects the cost to be 40% lesser in a follow on order and that makes for good political optics as well.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 04:30

Y I Patel wrote:When the 36 ac deal was announced in mid-2016, it was explained in simple terms: 36 urgently needed a/c for ~$8 B; $1 B in offsets to be used as needed to rectify Kaveri faults, certify it, and integrate it with Tejas..


I am not sure why you are certain the offsets deal has somehow collapsed. Knowing how the Indian and French babudom work, its much more likely the usual dotting the is and crossing the t's is going on even if there is no fancy deal signed on one specific item. From the IAF/DRDO perspective, there is ample time since its Ge404 all the way on Mk1 and Mk1A. So the urgency is a bit diluted.

I can also state with absolute certainty, that the Indo-French cooperation is already paying dividends in certain areas, and it is to the ample credit of the current GOI they are not yackety yacking about the specifics even though it would show them in a very positive light. However if the asinine attacks on the Rafale deal continue from the disgruntled we didn't get power so now we hate the current GOI brigade (people like Y Sinha, A Shourie, Shatru etc) and the venal INC-left ecosystem, then I wouldnt be surprised if the GOI has to make these details public, which would be a shame. The same way DRDO had to go public with its BMD program after a vicious attack on its competence by the usual media suspects operating to a paid script when the DRDO put a spanner in MMRCA 1 over ironically enough, offsets and TOT.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 04:38

Y I Patel wrote:So if all this work was already done, why did Macron come with an offer to use a rebadged M-88 in Rafales instead of the real deal?

Rakesh, I will say this - I cannot ignore you because you are an admin, but I would love to because (a) you are unable to put together nuanced thought, and (b) you cannot argue without making it personal.


I am not sure what you are expecting here - yes, the discussion has been a bit heated and lets all take a breather, but lets focus on the larger points you were concerned about. You made a statement that said the French were reneging on a deal to remake the Kaveri so to speak and M-88s were being passed off instead (based on media reports I guess) and so that is your key concern (which is very valid), however, Rakesh has presented a compelling series of official GOI information backed posts (with actual Annual Report data no less) that clearly tells us otherwise. In fact, it actually addresses the very concerns you had about Kaveri status and what is going on from the French side and Indian side. As to the future, Macron/XYZ can certainly offer us more solutions based on M-88 etc but its dependent on whether the certified Kaveri has no further growth potential or whether a M-88/Kaveri hybrid is good enough in the short term for an AMCA/LCA Mk2 to supplant a sanction vulnerable Ge414 while a fully Indian Kaveri MK-2 can be developed in parallel.

Point I am making is Rakesh's posts have sufficient data to show the Rafale offsets deal is not a Mirage, pun intended.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 04:43

Lets also be clear here, thanks to AURA/UCAV, Rustom type programs - Kaveri is no longer only linked to the LCA. A derated Kaveri core can be the basis for many other programs.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 506
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 10 Sep 2018 06:55

Well Karan,

I did a quick internet search to find supporting material for my response. Unsurprisingly, given how widely read BRF is, one of the first links that came up was from the Kaveri thread. After going through the posts in the linked page below, I figure I do not need to elaborate. Please do go over the first several posts on this page.

viewtopic.php?t=3351&start=3400

The one that really caught my attention is the following gem:

Rakesh wrote:Prasad: When Snecma-Safran agreed to get the Kaveri working, that is what they meant. What Dr Christopher is saying ties into that - the core will be from the M88. We will get no know how other than a working prototype by 2018 and final certification in the early 2020s. Nobody is going to give us engine tech.

The question the interviewer asked matters little...it is the answer that Dr Christopher gave matters most. If going by Dr Christopher's statement that that the entire engine will be made in India with design rights and that is the best one can hope for. The tech of the engine core will still remain with Safran though. Again, nobody is going to give us engine tech on a platter. Remember, until recently the entire program was put on the backburner.

The key point to remember here is HOPEFULLY we will have a working and functioning Kaveri engine. If that comes to fruition, why would you need the GE F404 or F414 for the Tejas?

Safran posted a job on it's website for a program manager for the Kaveri engine. That job has now been filled, but IDRW had an article dated Feb 2017 in which they did a cut-and-paste job of the job description from the Safran website. Link below;

Safran looking for program manager for Kaveri engine
http://idrw.org/safran-looking-out-for- ... ri-engine/
Ensure the control and coordination of all activities on the program, including consistent with the M88 program.

Safran has/had a job opening on its website (link below) for a M88 / Kaveri Military Engine Performance Engineer.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... &sandbox=1

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Sep 2018 07:08

Y I Patel wrote:Well Karan,

I did a quick internet search to find supporting material for my response. Unsurprisingly, given how widely read BRF is, one of the first links that came up was from the Kaveri thread. After going through the posts in the linked page below, I figure I do not need to elaborate. Please do go over the first several posts on this page.

And that post I made on 07 August 2017, was disproven with information due to the diameter of the two engines. So while the rest of BRF has moved on, you are still stuck on that same wavelength.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 506
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 10 Sep 2018 07:16

So that was from our resident genius. Here's one that quotes IAF's response to the previous offer to do the same thing. This post is also from the link I have above.

JayS wrote:Last time DRDO tried to do that same kind of JV with Snecma, IAF didn't like it (as mentioned by Maitya above, they shot it down). The context is little different, however it does not change the fact that the resulting engine will still be 80-85kN class and would be almost useless for either as MLU for LCA or for AMCA. As vina said above, why do we need 80kN class engine now..? If it was a complete indigenous engine then it was something else. But what will we do with this new MII French engine..??

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 064_1.html
IAF feels DRDO fronting for French engine, citing ‘joint development’.

India’s Tejas light fighter is failing to meet performance targets, largely because of an underpowered engine. And, the Indian Air Force (IAF) believes the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is actively stalling the process of choosing a new engine.

A furious IAF, which urgently needs the Tejas to replace its retiring MiG-21 squadrons, has complained in writing to the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The IAF report says that even as the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA — which oversees the Tejas programme — is choosing between two powerful, modern engines from the global market, the DRDO has confused the issue by throwing up a third option: An offer to resurrect its failed Kaveri engine programme, this time in partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma.

The IAF report, currently with the highest levels of the MoD, makes two points. First, since the DRDO has been unable, for over two decades, to deliver a Kaveri engine that can power the Tejas, the ongoing procurement — of either the General Electric (GE) F-414, or the Eurojet EJ200 engine — should go ahead.

The IAF’s second objection is even more damning for the DRDO: Snecma, the IAF charges, has already developed the heart of the engine it is offering, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter. The DRDO, therefore, will not co-develop the engine, but merely provide Snecma with an indigenous stamp. In reality, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that has laboured for decades on the Kaveri, will hardly participate in any “joint development”.

Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecma’s new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.

For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAF’s accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas’ current performance shortfalls.

Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in “joint development”. Since India’s futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) — the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine — has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.



Shuk-law ji's report of proposed GTRE-Snecma JV circa 2009. They claimed a more powerful 90kN class engine. But note the time required - 4yrs. Will be dragged to 6yrs easily.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.se/2009/12/k ... power.html


But, unexpectedly, the Kaveri has gotten off the floor. Business Standard has learned that the MoD --- apprehending that Eurojet and GE would hang back from providing India with critical engine technologies, even if Transfer of Technology (ToT) was mandated in a purchase contract --- now wants to co-develop an engine in India rather than manufacturing one under licence. The DRDO’s Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), which has a design partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma, has been asked to design a more powerful Kaveri successor.

A Snecma-GTRE joint venture to develop the upgraded Kaveri is likely to be announced during President Nikolas Sarkozy’s visit to India in early 2010.

Minister of State for Defence, Dr Pallam Raju, has confirmed to Business Standard, “It is important for India to have indigenous capabilities in engine design. And having invested so many man-hours of work into the design of the Kaveri engine, it would be a national waste to fritter away or dilute those capabilities…. (Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology. It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet or GE.”

Amongst the key engine technologies that India needs is that for Single Crystal Blades, which significantly enhance turbine performance within the incandescent confines of a jet engine combustion chamber. The MoD suspects that this technology, worth billions of dollars, will not be fully transferred by Eurojet or by GE. (But the French will gladly give it away to India, haan ji..? :lol: )

An MoD official, who is closely involved in deciding between the EJ200 and the F-414, explains this apprehension: “The tender stipulates that 50% of the technology must be transferred to India. But the vendor will lump together a bunch of low-end technologies that might add up to 50%. What we want is one or two high-end technologies.”

GTRE designers say that it would take about 4 years to co-develop an engine with Snecma, somewhat longer than the 3-year time frame in which the EJ200 or F-414 would start being delivered. Based upon the performance of the Kaveri flight in the ongoing flight tests in Russia, GTRE sources are confident that, “Snecma-GTRE is fully capable of producing an engine as good as the F-414 and the EJ-200.”

That will involve improving from the current Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN), to the 95 KN that the EJ200 and F-414 develop.



Are the French trying to sell us M88-3..?? Develop it by using us as cash-cow to bankroll the development cost..? I don't think they have made this uprated version so far, which is in concept for 2decades now. But I may be wrong.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... m88-51979/
A further development, the M88-3, rated at 9.5t thrust, still awaits funding, but has been benchtested on a privately funded demonstrator. "We are proposing the M88-3 to the French government for the future standard of the Rafale in the early 2000s and to prospective export customers", says Massot.

The M88-3 features a new LP compressor with higher mass flow (from 65kg/s in the -2 to 73.4kg/s). A new variable stator vane stage has been introduced, permitting the engine to operate at optimum conditions through a much wider range, reducing part-power-specific fuel consumption and providing more operational flexibility to suit the Rafale's multimission role. The development comes out of Snecma's CENTOR LP compressor research programme and from other exploratory developments carried out by Snecma in recent years.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 506
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 10 Sep 2018 07:22

Rakesh wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:Well Karan,

I did a quick internet search to find supporting material for my response. Unsurprisingly, given how widely read BRF is, one of the first links that came up was from the Kaveri thread. After going through the posts in the linked page below, I figure I do not need to elaborate. Please do go over the first several posts on this page.

And that post I made on 07 August 2017, was disproven with information due to the diameter of the two engines. So while the rest of BRF has moved on, you are still stuck on that same wavelength.

I need to take back what I said about your posts lacking in nuance. Talking out of both sides of the mouth is not my idea of nuance, but who am I to judge?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 07:27

YI Patel, you are quoting an Ajai Shukla report from 2010 and from 2009 - all of which cited hush-hush discussions, this, that.

Those reports are woefully out of date.

And why won't you take what is now available from 2017 - from the horse's mouth - i.e. DRDO Annual Report 2017.

It states, Safran is working with DRDO to operationalize the current Kaveri and bring it to a proper shape.

If you do wish to go down the path of media speculation (and TBH knowing our DDM it is speculation) at least lets look at the current reports.

From 2017
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03 ... noise.html

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... -plan.html

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/02 ... craft.html

Under the terms of the partnership finalised late last year, Snecma is working to modify, certify and integrate the Kaveri on a Light Combat Aircraft airframe before 2020. A later phase in the partnership will involve modifications on the Kaveri for a twin configuration on India’s AMCA fifth generation fighter concept and an altered non-reheat version for the Ghatak UCAV.


So here you go. The DRDO is basically a) making sure its current Kaveri is brought to a useful form b ) it can be used for Ghatak UCAV program (which means a Kaveri Mk1 unsuitable for LCA Mk1/Mk2 can still be operationalized in a variant's form c) Even a powered ++ Kaveri may not be sufficient for the LCA itself but a powered up 2x version can be used for the AMCA (or at least explored for it).

Nowhere in the above reports do I see some conspiracy by the French to deny us TOT or Indian incompetence scuttling the Kaveri.

I would argue that its a practical plan to get the Kaveri into a proper production ready form. Only once that is done, can you then think of making a new variant powerful enough for the LCA Mk2.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 07:31

Y I Patel wrote:
Rakesh wrote:And that post I made on 07 August 2017, was disproven with information due to the diameter of the two engines. So while the rest of BRF has moved on, you are still stuck on that same wavelength.

I need to take back what I said about your posts lacking in nuance. Talking out of both sides of the mouth is not my idea of nuance, but who am I to judge?


Come on YI Patel sir, lay off the personal remarks - you just stated that you didn't appreciate them and here you are engaging in them.
Its not uncommon for folks to look at more data, engage in discussion and change their POV, lets be civil.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Sep 2018 07:50

Karan: In fact, see this post of mine from earlier this year....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2279296#p2279296
Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, couple of points to note;

1) The Kaveri program was comatose, until the Rafale contract signed in Sept 2016. See below (written by Anantha Krishnan)...

DRDO to abandon indigenous fighter jet engine Kaveri project
https://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2014/11/ ... andon.html
18 Nov 2014 and if you click on the link above, the author updated the article (in Jan 2015) via a link at the bottom of the page.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS) programme, signaling an end to a desi dream of equipping its own fighter jet with a home-grown power plant. Sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to OneIndia on Tuesday that the DRDO has already moved a file recently seeking the closure of the ambitious engine development project undertaken by Bengaluru-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).

2) By mid 2016, news reports started coming in that France offered to revive the Kaveri program. See below...

France offers help to resurrect Kaveri engine for Tejas
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/F ... 475955.ece

France has offered to help India revive the unsuccessful Kaveri engine project for the indigenous Tejas aircraft and a host of other high-end collaborations. This is a part of the offsets in the multi-billion Euro Rafale fighter plane deal, which is now in the final stages.

An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation, which can eventually be used for Tejas, which currently uses an American engine.

This was a brilliant move by the French, because they knew whatever ailed the Kaveri was fixable. We bit the bullet and in Sept 2016, the Rafale deal was signed in New Delhi, between India and France.

Prasannasimha-ji did a wonderful job by posting that snippet on the Kaveri program. From 2014 to the end of 2016, there was little or no movement of any significance on the Kaveri program. In Sept 2016, the Rafale deal was signed and France promised to have the Kaveri fly by Aero India 2019. By the end of 2017, five prototypes were tested for a total of 145 hours. Safran conducted a technical audit and states that the engine has attained sufficient level of maturity.

Now GTRE could have done this themselves and saved US $1 billion in the bargain. But remember, DRDO wanted to shut down the program in 2014. Four years later, the program has done a complete u-turn. We always knew Safran would make the Kaveri work, whether they actually wanted to do it was the real proof in the pudding. And if that news snippet is correct, Safran has delivered albeit half way. The next deliverable from Safran is get the Kaveri to fly and the one after that is to get the Kaveri certified.

What exactly Safran did, we will likely never know unless we have chaiwallahs in GTRE :) Audit can be anything and Katare has provided clarity on that. Now this by Prasannasimha-ji is very interesting. Safran was supposed to put the M88 core in and make the Kaveri work. But that has not happened. The Kabini core itself has been modified by Safran.

prasannasimha wrote:^ I think the Kaveri Safran has audited did not have an M88 core. It is still the original Kabini core with some modifications.

Now I will make an educated guess of my own. I believe Safran has "modified" the core to meet - at minimum - the original design specifications, which I am assuming is around 90 kN. I believe - in this very dhaaga - we came to conclusion that the M88 core cannot be installed in the Kaveri engine. Please correct me if I am wrong. But regardless, the above is even better news.

Now you make a valid point...is this help from Safran really worth US $1 billion? Please remember (I know, I sound like a broken record player)...the program was officially de-linked from the Tejas. If Safran can make the Kaveri fly and certified - via audit, via modifications or whatever - that is IMHO a very sound investment. As per wiki chacha, we have spent more than US $640 million on the program, add another US $1 billion (Kaveri offset) and a few hundred million more and India will have spent ~ US $2 billion to date on this program. Sir - as long as the engine works - that is peanuts. The payoffs for India are huge.

Now Safran has provided its input and its report. Now the first step is get the Kaveri to fly. The next step (a long way to go for this) is certification. My lungi is ready for Aero India 2019. I will either lungi shiver or lungi dance, depending on the news :)

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 08:01

I agree. Get a baseline Kaveri proven and tested. At least then you have a relatively sanction proof local engine for everything from a MiG-27/Hawk/Jaguar equivalent to a Ghatak. That part of the chain is broken. Then you can tinker around and make advanced derivatives for the LCA Mk2 and AMCA etc.

Right now, without any engine available, to kick the baby out of the bathtub and state Safran's offer of (supposedly) a M-88 is not acceptable yada yada because it can't power the Millenium Falcon is besides the point. At least Safran is working to get Kaveri Mk1 flying - lets hold them to that.

I dont think with ITAR and strategic considerations, you will get this from the Khan biggies or our good friends in Russia who will see the AL-31XX market slip away.

prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 10 Sep 2018 09:08

From what I heard the plan is to still install Kaveri on the Tejas after modifications. One of the major problems that I heard was that the size of the engine per se was an issue for integration into Tejas due to its inherent small size and that needed some work.

We did not have adequate platforms for testing and certification. That stalled us a lot.

Anotger point is metallurgical issues. Our budget severely constrained the ability to get small batches of special alloys which industry was notvready to provide in small quantities.
Thats why the entire ecosystem needs to develop when making engines

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2018 13:42

Rakesh, there is no dearth of people in DRDO who would like to wash their hands off of tough programs which are embarassments because they are not magically delivering - programs like Kaveri f.e. DRDOs budget has been stagnating in needs vs available funds (despite current GOI giving them a hefty increase vs real decline seen in UPA era) so Kaveri is an easy target. Having said that, there are clearly folks in DRDO who are completely oblivious to vested criticism and will "bash on regardless", so the Safran TOT came as a breather. It remains to be seen as to whether GOI has the funds to pursue a Kaveri Mk2, using the experience from Kaveri Mk1, such as Nagan became ALTAS even though one is not the other and needs new technologies. I can see all this only happening after 2019.
For now, at least get the 18 options in the Rafale deal (and show a big middle finger to the opposition) and start the Su-30 upgrade program and have the LCA production at HAL ramp up.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 506
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 11 Sep 2018 05:41

Rakesh wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:So if all this work was already done, why did Macron come with an offer to use a rebadged M-88 in Rafales instead of the real deal?

You show me one official report that states what you have said. Go ahead and show me. Do not show me a media report!

I know what you are referring to. But please show everyone else what you are claiming to be true.


Okay... so I was unable to hack into the French or DRDO servers for the official report, but in the best BRF tradition convinced my favorite paanwala in DRDO:

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... ch2018.pdf

I was hoping it would be official enough for you, but dang it, it turns out to be a newspaper report copied verbatim from

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/ ... s-iaf.html

DEFENCE

Macron's engine offer for Tejas aimed at powering more Rafale sales
By Justin Paul George March 10, 2018 18:16 IST [\quote]

It is such a masterpiece of obfuscation that it deserves the title of Shrodinger's Press Leak. Why? Because it issues a confirmation and a non-confirmation about the same subject at the same time. Read it and take notes, it will help you segue from one position to another with great elegance and rapidity. Here's some gems:

On the face of it, the French offer, valued at approximately euro 1 billion, seems to make eminent sense, in addition to providing a technology boost to DRDO.
The M88 is an advanced engine with a modular design, making maintenance easier and increasing operational availability, unlike Russian systems, which currently dominate Indian Air Force service.


And at the same time...

An optimistic in-service date for such an M88-powered Tejas variant would be well past 2025, by when the type's basic design would be obsolete. While it can be argued that the M88 could be used for the AMCA, the level of IAF and government commitment to that programme remains unclear.


Read it, Admiral, and be inspired. It covers all bases and imparts all kind of information without commiting to anything of substance. Truly, the work of a scientific genius turned literatuer.

My mind was truly blown by its brilliance. I needed help. So what would the fearless DRDO leadership recommend when the chips are down and a problem needs to be solved under a strict deadline? Run to a foreign collaborator for help, of course! But it can't be the lying Yankees or the slimy Russkies, can it? It can only be our true and honest and philanthropic friends from La France! So Franceward I turned, to be richly rewarded:

First, from late February 2018

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 69696.html

The Indian fighting aircraft Tejas soon powered by the M88 engine Rafale?
By Michel Cabirol | 26/02/2018, 6:56 | 227 words


Emmanuel Macron's next visit to India could boost cooperation between Safran and India to power the light combat aircraft, the Tejas. (Credits: © Regis Duvignau / Reuters)
Saffron and India are close to signing a partnership to develop an engine for the combat aircraft bequeath Tejas from the M88 which powers the Rafale.
The M88 engine soon aboard the Tejas? It is in the realm of the possible even if with India the prudence is always de rigueur. According to our information, the negotiations between Safran, supported by the French State, and India (more specifically DRDO - Defense Research and Development Organization ) are on track to power the Indian light combat aircraft (LCA) with the M88 as part of the Kaveri program that needs to be resurrected. They could soon succeed and this new Franco-Indian partnership could be the subject of an announcement during Emmanuel Macron's trip to India on March 10th.
Transiently powered by General Electric (F404 F2J3), New Delhi originally wanted to develop an Indian engine. But the setbacks in the development of the Kaveri, which did not meet the needs expressed, led to an abandonment in 2014. Since 2016, Safran is again at the forefront of proposing the M88 as part of a technology transfer in motorized Tejas ("glorious" in Sanskrit) as part of "Make in India". This fighter was launched in the 1980s by New Delhi, then the design of the aircraft was stopped in the 1990s. Finally, the first prototype TD-1 made its first flight on January 4, 2001. Tejas was ordered to 123 copies.


And then:
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 74458.html

Rafale: India passes its turn in 2018
By Michel Cabirol | 09/04/2018, 6:42 | 559 words


The Rafale, a collateral victim of the pre-election campaign, is not expected to be re-commissioned in 2018 in India. (Credits: Dassault Aviation)
India is not expected to sign a new Rafale order in 2018 due to a controversy over the sale of 36 copies sold in 2016 in a pre-election context.
According to concordant Indian and French sources, India is not expected to sign a new Rafale order in 2018. At nearly one year of general elections scheduled for April or May 2019, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, leader of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), does not wish to fuel the controversy, which followed the order of the 36 Rafale signed in September 2016. The main opposition force Modi government, the Congress Party, is actually unleashed against this acquisition. "Nothing will happen on this issue given a very strong controversy that currently exists in a pre-election context , " says one in La Tribune.
Continuation of negotiations
As a result, France in general, and Dassault Aviation in particular, will continue discussions with New Delhi this year. "It will not be useless from this point of view but there will probably be no announcement in 2018 on the Rafale," says one. Thus, Emmanuel Macron's visit to India (March 9-12) was not an opportunity for Dassault Aviation to sign a new contract. However, for several months, the builder of the Rafale is discussing with India a new order for additional aircraft. And as always in India, French manufacturers will have to be very, very patient.
In any case, the French Aeronautical and Space Industries Group ( GIFAS) is doing the job perfectly to put the Rafale team on track for success by playing the "Make in India" game. Thus, it will lead from April 16 to 19 in India (New Delhi, Bangalore, Mumbai and Hyderabad) a large industrial delegation bringing together six major prime contractors (Airbus, ArianeGroup, Dassault Aviation, MBDA, Safran and Thales) and 54 subcontractors, suppliers, SMEs and equipment manufacturers.
Other pending orders
In addition to the Rafale (between 100 and 200 more), the French armament industry hopes orders for Airbus Panther helicopters (111 aircraft) under the NUH program and many artillery pieces (Nexter) , as well as a new contract for three Scorpene submarines. Safran also aims to power with the M88 (engine of the Rafale), the Indian light combat aircraft, the Tejas . The Minister of Armies Florence Parly confirmed in an interview with La Tribune , the interest of the Indians for the M88.
There is also another subject that is of great interest to Indians and that may be moving forward in 2018. It is the Kaveri program for motorizing the Indian fighter plane, the Tejas. This project could progress and we will continue to work very actively on this subject with Safran.
Nexter is also present in two gigantic tenders in India. The first, which could be the contract of the century in terms of artillery would involve an order of 1,400 guns of 155 millimeters towed, for which the French group offers the Trajan. This contract would amount to 1 billion euros, an amount never reached in the field of artillery. The French group is one of the last two candidates before the final decision. Trajan is currently conducting a new test campaign in India, explained the CEO of Nexter. The second competition is for 800 truck-mounted guns, for which the group offers Caesar.


I know a mere media report does not measure up to the Admiral's exacting standards to change his mind, but it's a French media report! 100% non-lies unlike what SDRE YIP utters when he says same to same. Shrodinger strikes again.

And there you have it. Since 2016, DRDO was directly involved in negotiations with Safran to execute the $1 Billion Kaveri dedicated offset program, and they used the negotiations to get an M88 into Tejas. Note: M88 (with lots of Kaveri components!!!!!) into Tejas. Macron came to close that deal, but it was shot down.

Are we done yet? No sir Admiral sir. My mind has been blown and not blown at the same time, so it seeks more. From a link the Honorable Admiral himself provided

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... -plan.html

Gosh, that's an impressive report. Maps, and boxes, and what not. Precisely located super duper secret 2019 and onwards plans for 70 non-Reliance offset partner locations... Almost as complex as the Admiral's deployment plan at Trafalgar. So impressive I had to resort to reading the accompanying text for dummies, which bore a tiny little caveat, just a minor detail..

In a series of slides accessed by Livefist, the contours of the ‘Make in India’ elements of the Rafale deal stand revealed for the first time. The details that follow pertain principally to the Rafale platform itself, and doesn’t include the $1-billion partnership between France’s SAFRAN and India’s DRDO for the Kaveri turbofan engine, a major thrust area for both countries that will also count in the offsets program.


So wait. Superb details for offset progarms that may not even begin anytime soon, but nothing on the one part of the offsets that has been under negotiation and implementation with DRDO since 2016? Could it just be that the offsets have to be examined not by our fearless Admiral but a bloody general, the Comptroller and Auditor General? How will they view all those minor chillar expenses for modifying M88 to fit into Tejas????

Le Grand Admiral, a bunch of your battleships abruptly changed their minds and became submarines! Pliss to figure out how to extricate them from Trafalgar!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 06:23

Y I Patel wrote:Okay... so I was unable to hack into the French or DRDO servers for the official report, but in the best BRF tradition convinced my favorite paanwala in DRDO:

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... ch2018.pdf

I was hoping it would be official enough for you, but dang it, it turns out to be a newspaper report copied verbatim from

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/ ... s-iaf.html

So you admit that the DRDO copied the report from The Week verbatim? :D

What does that prove really? Nothing.

Because unless you are Houdini, you cannot change the diameter size of the Tejas' engine bay to accommodate the M88.

You can provide all the news reports you want, but you cannot change math. Unless you live in some alternate reality.

The guys at Snecma-Safran and GTRE do not by the way. Another little FACT for you :)

Even if such proposal ever existed, the engineers at Snecma-Safran and GTRE would have soon realized that idea would not work.

Y I Patel wrote:First, from late February 2018

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 69696.html

Media Report :D


Yet Another Media Report :D

Y I Patel wrote:And there you have it. Since 2016, DRDO was directly involved in negotiations with Safran to execute the $1 Billion Kaveri dedicated offset program, and they used the negotiations to get an M88 into Tejas. Note: M88 (with lots of Kaveri components!!!!!) into Tejas. Macron came to close that deal, but it was shot down.

And you can make that assumption and live in the fanciful world where size does not matter, but as I said earlier....it will not fit.

So your entire premise to run down Snecma-Safran is moot :)

Y I Patel wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03/rafale-deal-first-full-details-of-frances-e4-billion-india-offsets-plan.html

In a series of slides accessed by Livefist, the contours of the ‘Make in India’ elements of the Rafale deal stand revealed for the first time. The details that follow pertain principally to the Rafale platform itself, and doesn’t include the $1-billion partnership between France’s SAFRAN and India’s DRDO for the Kaveri turbofan engine, a major thrust area for both countries that will also count in the offsets program.


Thank you for that above quote, which ties in directly to this...

Official 2017 DRDO Report.....refer to Page 15, left bottom paragraph.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/ebooks ... .html#p=27

At least I provided an official source like above, which clearly states Snecma-Safran's involvement. And I did not have to hack DRDO's website for that ;)

What can you provide really, other than media reports? Baseless & Mindless Insinuations to run down the Rafale deal. Why that is a playbook right out of Rahul Gandhi's 2019 Election Manifesto :)

At the end of the day, these are the facts:

1) Safran conducted a technical audit of the Kaveri engine
2) Safran's audit has stated that the Kaveri engine has attained a sufficient level of maturity
3) Five prototypes of Kaveri engines were tested - K5, K6, K7, K8 and K9 on various parameters

Apart from media reports - both French and Indian - there is no official statement from Snecma-Safran to fit a M88 engine onto a Tejas engine. And if one does come in the future, that particular M88 engine will be a redesigned one. But Snecma-Safran has said nothing to that effect.

However, if Snecma-Safran does do that it will lay waste to everything you have said in your earlier posts.

I will also be wrong, but hey I would be more than HAPPY to be proved wrong in that account.

Because at least the engine will not be from the lying Yankees :lol: or the slimy Russkies, but rather only from our true and honest and philanthropic friends from La France.

At least with an engine from our our true and honest and philanthropic friends from La France, I could rest in peace knowing that the engine would not be under constant threat of sanctions from the lying Yankees.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 06:34

Let us also compare the record of the lying Yankees to see their assistance (if any!) in the Kaveri program;

Defense Technology & Trade Initiative (DTTI)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2234699&hilit=JETJWG#p2234699

Just a caveat though, full of media report links :)

The lying Yankees are too cunning to say it in an official report. Plausible Deniability After All ;)

And oh yes, I do mention Snecma-Safran not helping GTRE with the hot engine section of the Kaveri. Since you will surely highlight that point :)

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2911
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kashi » 11 Sep 2018 06:48

So YI Patel, you are still quoting media reports, even the DRDO chaiwaala link is a collated pdf of media reports including the one from The Week that you quoted below.

This is what Livefist has to say

The details that follow pertain principally to the Rafale platform itself, and doesn’t include the $1-billion partnership between France’s SAFRAN and India’s DRDO for the Kaveri turbofan engine,


All the Livefist report does is claim that the Safran-DRDO deal was not included in the slides that THEY managed to access (assuming that these are legitimate) that are to do with Rafale itself.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2731
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 11 Sep 2018 07:25

Btw for people who do not know, in a different forum there is a political thread - one can perhaps open a thread there - Mudi sud resign. Perhaps that is a better place?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 08:45

This is not necessarily about Modi or the BJP or Rahul Gandhi or the Congress. This is a deep rooted frustration that has not been forgotten since 27 April 2011. You know what that date represents? The date of the technical downselect, where the F-16 and F-18 were removed from MMRCA 1.0. They cannot get over the fact, that the French got the better of the Americans.

That was more than S-E-V-E-N years ago. The world has moved on :roll: Donald Trump is President :mrgreen:

The underlying theme in the supposed Rafale M88/Kaveri scam is that the Frenchies are taking us for a ride and had we gone with the American birds, we would not have these embarrasing problems that he believes to be true in his fairly tale universe. Because only the US is real, everyone else is just fake. Strategic alignment with America will take care of all of India's military problems because Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz (by tapping her shoes) will do the following --->

1) The IAF will miracously have a 55+ squadron strength airforce consisting of 200 F-16s and 100 F-18s as the tip of the spear.
2) The IN will have a 65K+ nuclear powered AC, EMALS and F-18s to influence events from Alaska to the Far East.

I did not have to make the above two up. Verbatim quotes from other folks that I came across on BRF.

He is providing free entertainment (esp his last post) for us all. Read with popcorn :) Sprinkled with history (the Battle of Trafalgar!), deep emotion (no sir Admiral sir!) and Bollywood song-and-dance (blown and not blown!).

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Sep 2018 09:01

May be we should do a FMS deal with Khan whereby they buy Rafaels and sell to us at cost....
So we buy american but get French!!!!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 09:03

^^^ :rotfl: :lol:

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4134
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 11 Sep 2018 11:52

Sigh. BTW any educated guesses as to when we'll buy the next batch?

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2911
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kashi » 11 Sep 2018 12:55

Karthik S wrote:Sigh. BTW any educated guesses as to when we'll buy the next batch?


Given the circumstances- rising oil prices, rupee depreciation and pressure on our CAD, not to mention gutter-level politicking, unless GoI pulls a rabbit out of their hat, follow on orders for Rafale appear to be low down on the order of priorities.

If I were to hazard a guess- not sure if educated- either GoI will order a batch shortly (within a month) or they will wait till after GE 2019, because either of them will allow the fall out to be managed.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19535
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2018 16:28

I must see my soothsayer for some light on the various issues.Unfortunately the person lives abtoad.Howevef will let you know thd fugure after my next visit!

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Sep 2018 16:45

Philip wrote:I must see my soothsayer for some light on the various issues.Unfortunately the person lives abtoad.Howevef will let you know thd fugure after my next visit!

Vladivostock?
About the Katarina or the Natasha?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 23:27

IAF teams to start Rafale training
https://www.janes.com/article/82907/iaf ... e-training

A six-member team from the Indian Air Force (IAF) has left for France to train on Dassault Rafale fighters: a move that comes a little over two years after New Delhi ordered 36 of the multirole combat aircraft for €7.9 billion euros (US $9.16 billion) via an intergovernmental agreement. Official sources told Jane's that the team, which comprises a fighter pilot, an engineer, and four technicians, will receive instruction on the Rafales over the next few months at the Saint Dizier-Robinson Air Base in eastern France, and will be followed by other IAF personnel who will undergo similar training. The sources said that these IAF teams will eventually fly the Rafales to India, in keeping with the agreed delivery schedule that is set to begin in September 2019 and be completed by April 2022.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 23:30

Away from Politics, Indian Air Force pilot crew flies to France for Rafale jet training
https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/a ... 52764.html

While the Rafale deal is still garnering massive controversy, a six-member team of India Air Force has left for France to train on the Rafale fighters. The 59,000 crore deal has unleashed a political storm in the country with Congress accusing Modi government of massive corruption in the deal. A fighter pilot, an engineer and four technicians form the first batch of the team that will train on the Rafale jets as IAF decides to prepare itself for the induction of the first batch of the French fighter by September next year. The team left on Sunday and it will get training at the Saint-Dizier airbase in eastern France. “The IAF will send more pilots and technicians to France for Rafale training in the coming months in batches. It will be the responsibility of these crews to fly the jets to India,” said one of the officials cited above to HT.

The Rafale will be the first imported fighter jet to be inducted into the IAF in 22 years after the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighters. The first Su-30 entered IAF service in June 1997. India and France signed the deal for two Rafale squadrons (36 planes) in September 2016 as an emergency purchase to arrest the worrying slide in the IAF’s capabilities. The squadrons will be based at Ambala in Haryana and Hasimara in West Bengal, covering the northern and eastern fronts. The IAF is having an acute shortage of fighter jets. In the situation of the two front war against Pakistan and China, IAF needs at least 42 squadrons (18 planes in each squadron) but currently. it has only 31. The Congress alleged that NDA paid Rs 351 crore more on each jet than other Rafale customers, the NDA government said the basic jet price is 20% cheaper under NDA that what was on decided under UPA-I in 2007.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2018 23:38

See how low some can fall. They are now accusing serving Air Marshals of lying and colluding with the Modi Govt. WOW! :roll:

A truly sad day for the country.

Govt using military brass to defend Rafale scam: Shourie, Sinha & Bhushan
https://www.theweek.in/wire-updates/nat ... ourie.html

Last week Air Marshal Deo called Rafale a "beautiful" aircraft and said those criticising the deal must understand the procurement norms. Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar has also countered allegations of any wrongdoing in the Rafale deal. "They are making the Vice Chief of Air Force to lie. You (the government) asked him to say that IAF said buy 36 aircraft. This is a lie. The vice chief is lying. The Air Force never said before April 10, 2015, that buy 36 aircraft or India-specific add-ons. By making them lie the whole morale of the air force is being finished."

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2018 23:58

YI Patel,

The DRDO has a DPR which reprints scans of all reports - good, bad, outright false, they don't care, as long as DRDO is mentioned they just scan the article and host it on their site. The logic beats me, but hey its well known and they have been doing it for almost 2-3 years now. There are press reports dating to 2014-15 as well. So what it boils down to is - Indian media copied a French media report which says "Macron will offer M-88 etc". So let them.

France offered DRDO SRSAM with a desi-fied Mica yet DRDO was about to sign the deal (so the media said, including livefist) and yet they didn't and ultimately developed the QRSAM. The Mica-wannabe will now at most be available only for the Navy's short term requirements.

Bottomline, there is nothing to prevent France from offering us "cheap and bhesht" solutions, but that does not mean DRDO will necessarily adopt them, especially if they have GOI support to develop their own Mk2.

So beyond the speculation, we ONLY have confirmation that the Safran - DRDO cooperation AT PRESENT includes a tech audit of the Kaveri Mk1 (my own designation) and to get it flying and cooperation towards AMCA & AURA. We know what is in the former, latter remain speculation so far.

Please don't go by media reports alone which would have you believe Rafale is superior to F-35, F-35 is superior to F-22 and Su-57 is superior to both. Never mind our DDM reports.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15474
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2018 00:00

Rakesh wrote:See how low some can fall. They are now accusing serving Air Marshals of lying and colluding with the Modi Govt. WOW! :roll:

A truly sad day for the country.

Govt using military brass to defend Rafale scam: Shourie, Sinha & Bhushan
https://www.theweek.in/wire-updates/nat ... ourie.html

Last week Air Marshal Deo called Rafale a "beautiful" aircraft and said those criticising the deal must understand the procurement norms. Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar has also countered allegations of any wrongdoing in the Rafale deal. "They are making the Vice Chief of Air Force to lie. You (the government) asked him to say that IAF said buy 36 aircraft. This is a lie. The vice chief is lying. The Air Force never said before April 10, 2015, that buy 36 aircraft or India-specific add-ons. By making them lie the whole morale of the air force is being finished."


There is no depth to which power hungry fellows won't fall. I hope the IAF holds a presser and counters sensationalism and defends its ow forthrightly.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35825
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 12 Sep 2018 00:04

^^The Three Idiots / sorry. totally unnecessary for their intellectual capabilities. Or is it starting stages of Alzheimers?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5595
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Sep 2018 01:55

^^^ The irony is the Govt asked the IAF what is the minimum needed and the reply was 36. How does one expect the Prime Minister to know what the minimum is required for the IAF? He relies on that info from his military chiefs. What kind of mindless individuals are these people?

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1302
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 12 Sep 2018 02:42

Honestly, I think the congress has realised that they have no hope of winning the next election in India and have gone the way of all is fair in love and war.

@Rakesh, comments have been echoed by many on deaf years.
How on god's green earth does the PM know how many the IAF needs ?

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 506
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 12 Sep 2018 03:39

-- deleted --
Last edited by suryag on 12 Sep 2018 14:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: useless unsubstantiated post - warning issued


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests