VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby PratikDas » 22 Sep 2018 10:05

After the Dassault statement, it is clear there is no belly to attack.

Of course, politicians can keep concocting stories - that Indian MoD forced Dassault to say so, and Modi twisted MoD’s arm, and I twisted Modi’s arm, and my wife twisted my arm, and my toddler twisted hers.

Nevertheless, after the Dassault statement, there is no belly to attack.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 22 Sep 2018 10:50

I think govt is doing good job. More govt engages on this matter more it’ll get snared in the mess. If Sitaraman explains HAL didn’t have capability to make Rafale, T Suvarna Raju will come out next day to contradict it.

There was a great and sustained attack on the Scorpion submarine deal too, by a media house and opposition politicians of that time but nothing came out of it. Remember Lalit Modi furor? If there is no corruption or wrong doing it’ll blow over. Keep to the bare facts, do not engage, this thing will die-down if govt refuses to play RaGa’s ball.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Hari Nair » 22 Sep 2018 11:03

CRamS wrote:Hari Nair,

Please help with this. Both the French govt and Dassualt have come out and issued statements in line with govt of India. So what exactly needs clarification? Leave Pappu aside for a moment, he is well programmed by his more intellectually endowed slaves to keep hammering away. But my question to you is, what is it that you want ModiJi to clarify? He, or his spokesman will I am sure come out and reiterate what French govt and Dassault said. Is that not enough?


Let me clarify - I am a staunch supporter and had voted for our PM. I have also been part of the system and have experienced the twists and turns an acquisition project takes before fruition - or sometimes goes belly-up like the AW-101 case! In this case, as I understand, the Rafale acquisition file was already with CAG undergoing routine audit and was supposed to be finished in time for the winter session of parliament. Lets not make a mistake and try and dismiss the former French president's statement. It IS a bombshell and has the potential to derail this acquisition altogether. The statement indicates that there is a loose thread in the deal and this loose thread may lead somewhere else. Unless Hollande totally denies the statement quoted to him and if there is anything more, there will be a trail which will be picked up by the auditors. I have seen some of CAG's notings on some acquisitions and they are a sharp bunch of chaps. Very little seems to escape them.

So, they the Govt needs to:
a) Manage public perception better. Communicating clearly and lucidly with facts that can be released in open domain. The RM and FM unfortunately are NOT being effective communicators in this case. See how clearly Air Mshl Zappo communicated in his presentation? The politicians / MoD could perhaps emulate.
b) Hope for an all clear from the CAG audit.
c) Hope there is no action from the French legal or legislative system on Hollande.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 22 Sep 2018 11:12

Rakesh wrote:Official statement from the French Govt....

Image



Hollande and the French Government/Dassault is right , Technically Dassault must have chosen Reliance even though they have just zero expereince in Aerospace but the guiding hand would have been some one in India who would have directed it , Its a political decision is what Hollande is hinting it.

These decision are never noted in any files and hence cannot be proven , Its a word of mouth thing.

Reliance is in Huge Debt and has lost every thing to remain a viable entity and Dassault deal is a life saver for it ,I am sure Mukesh must be using UPA to make its own point , After all Mukesh was the guy who boasted of Congress ko Jeb mein lekar ghoomta hoon.

I am sure UPA would have done the same thing as many jobs are at stake but just that they are not in power and have the political ammo.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 22 Sep 2018 11:45

I couldn't help but laugh at the fact that the ones hounding Reliance are primarily from the ecosystem which had funding from Reliance itself. Lot of these media companies are owned by Reliance.

Any deal with Reliance will now be seen as a scam. Fundamentally Reliance access to the power corridor (Congress apni dukan hai), which had been it's trump card is going down the drain. :rotfl:

Regarding the offset, I believe DRDO got the largest share. Moreover only 36 jets are bought and Dassault has 49% share in the company. I cannot believe Reliance is so silly to share it's loot with Dassault, if there is a scam. It could have set up a fully owned company and ask GoI to order 126 jets instead.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 22 Sep 2018 12:17

We are talking of ADAG Reliance here Anil bhai who is in trouble not the über powerful Mukesh bhai, the latter would be happy to see Anil go down

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 22 Sep 2018 12:23

Chota bhai and badha bhai have patched up their difference. Badha bhai even bought one of the chota bhai company, which was under huge debt. Both have equal access to the power corridors and patrons in the media.

Even Arun Shourie, who was shouting scam, quietly added a disclaimer "Anil is a good friend". All the worthies fear more about cut off of Reliance money, than anything else.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Pratyush » 22 Sep 2018 12:37

Wrt reliance for domestic assembly of rafale threre two seperate points to be kept in mind.

1) the decision to use chota Bhai was made once rafale was selected in 2012 only. Who compelled that decision will be an interesting story.

2) in the signed deal there is no assembly involved in India. Only offsets which may or may not result in parts being built in India. So chota Bhai is not manufacturing the complete Jet.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 22 Sep 2018 13:04

Had the partner been Tata's, L& T, Mahindra's, etc., companies with a proven track record there would've been no hoo-ha at all.The R co. was desperate to get into the lucrative desi defence market and wangled its way into the deal the manner of which is under debate.
Had RDL delivered the goods on the contracts it was awarded, there would be less static.It is a fact that Dassault/ Thales have tied up with multiple partners for various aspects of their aerospace biz. in India.Why not the R co. which is our corporate sector giant in almost every field?

M.Hollande is trying to shovel sh*t which may be in his own backgarden onto Indian soil just like the toxic waste and toxic vessels sent to our shores from Europe.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Sep 2018 13:19

Philip, I get the feeling future no govt will buy European planes.
It will be Desi, Russian or US.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 22 Sep 2018 13:22

Philip wrote:Had the partner been Tata's, L& T, Mahindra's, etc., companies with a proven track record there would've been no hoo-ha at all.


HAL is also one of the offset partner. It didn't help, did it.

The ho ha is not about track record.Nothing sells scam on prime tv with "Ambani" name on it. Of course our anti-corruption warriors don't mind some ambani generosity when it suits them.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Sep 2018 13:23

Hari Nair,
Reliance offset is for parts for other planes made by Dassault.
Also tie up was during UPS with Mota bhai.
Later defence was in Chota bhai share.
He tried to get Russian deals but Modi govt did not oblige.
Somehow Dassault agreed to jave him.as partner.

I think Hollande had a hand.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 22 Sep 2018 13:24

ramana wrote:Philip, I get the feeling future no govt will buy European planes.
It will be Desi, Russian or US.


Doubt will be russian due to caasta, doubt will be american due to... caasta

I actually like this ho- ha and caasta.

Now watch how IAF will start liking Indian jets. And funding increase to DRDO :D

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 22 Sep 2018 13:43

I don't know why so much fuss is being made about a deal where there is literally no evidence that something bad has happened or any overt corruption occurred.
For all the left/INC guys yammering about Ambani/DRAL getting offsets, can they explain how Scorpene offsets went to pvt firms with literally no prior experience?

BJPs biggest issue has been its cowardice when dealing with the 4th estate and vested interests. Whenever they come to power, they begin groveling and act overly defensive.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Sep 2018 13:56

Pratyush wrote:Wrt reliance for domestic assembly of rafale threre two seperate points to be kept in mind.
in the signed deal there is no assembly involved in India. Only offsets which may or may not result in parts being built in India. So chota Bhai is not manufacturing the complete Jet.

I could only find a merely stating that reliance will contribute to falcon jets, nothing else. Could not find any other link regarding the jet. could you also share your source. Here's mine:
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 018_1.html
Dassault Reliance Aerospace (DRAL) intends to discharge offsets by building civil aerospace components for Dassault’s successful Falcon business jet. Last year, Dassault chief Eric Trappier and Anil Ambani laid the foundation stone of DRAL’s proposed manufacturing facility outside Nagpur.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2018 14:07

nam wrote:
ramana wrote:Philip, I get the feeling future no govt will buy European planes.
It will be Desi, Russian or US.


Doubt will be russian due to caasta, doubt will be american due to... caasta

I actually like this ho- ha and caasta.

Now watch how IAF will start liking Indian jets. And funding increase to DRDO :D


Ghee shakaar, saar.

This very thought struck me yesterday, when hollande's suicidal statement came out.

He has f(uked his own country for just a few dollars.

Typical commie.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2018 14:16

Karan M wrote:I don't know why so much fuss is being made about a deal where there is literally no evidence that something bad has happened or any overt corruption occurred.
For all the left/INC guys yammering about Ambani/DRAL getting offsets, can they explain how Scorpene offsets went to pvt firms with literally no prior experience?

BJPs biggest issue has been its cowardice when dealing with the 4th estate and vested interests. Whenever they come to power, they begin groveling and act overly defensive.


when modi came to power, many journos had, metamorphically speaking, already written out their last wills and testaments and many channels had termination letters already typed out. They were ready to be banished into the wilderness

Modi should have simply followed through with the slaughter. They would have been no opposition, no blowback or even resentment. It would have made them respect him more.

Instead, modi went into the usual Hindu bleeding heart prithviraj chauhan mode and freed his enemies and that greatly emboldened these venomous snakes.

Very foolish mistake.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 22 Sep 2018 15:58

That would be stupid, buying only Ru.Despite my respect for several Ru mil. products, we have always had an EU relationship from many Brit. anc French profucts..Gnat , Jag and Hawk local manufacgure too, apart from a v.close relationship with the French in helos.Even the Ru
KA 226 LUH has French engines.

In this controversy, no one has trashed the aircraft whatsoever! It is the execution of the deal that is ending up into a bunfight. M.Hollande is no saint. Carrying with 2 mistresses at the same time , cheating on his " official" paramour ensconced in he Elysee Palace in imperial style, while ( like Clinton and his early morning "jogging") cycling off icognito at dawn to romp in the hay with a young actress ,tells you a lot about hiz character.Did M.Hollande demand more than some spare coin for the film of his mistress no.2, let's say " argent" pour his own pocket?!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2018 16:01

In their "eagerness" to "get" Modi, NDTV resorts to lying openly.

The vultures are gathering in numbers


A group of vultures is called a wake, committee, kettle, venue, or volt. The term kettle refers to vultures in flight, while committee refers to vultures resting in trees. Wake is reserved for a group of vultures that are feeding

Take your pick



Noopur@NoopurTiwari

Covering PM Modi Paris visit in 2015 when the infamous #Rafale deal was announced, as @ndtv reporter, had noted that for some reason GOI kept it hidden from the media that Mr Ambani, Mr Adani were v much there. Accessed list issued the same day by French gov that had them on top!

21:19 - 21 Sep 2018

133 133 Replies 1,335 1,335 Retweets 1,692 1,692 likes



Her lack of comprehension skills and zealousness to insinuate wrongdoing on the part of the government was soon called out by vigilant political observers on Social Media.


Deepak Singh @smarket

Are you crazy? The French list is in alphabetical order while that's not the case with Indian list. Either you don't have analytical skills or you are deliberately misleading people....no wonder you are with NDTV https://twitter.com/NoopurTiwari/status/1043165332880457728 …

21:46 - 21 Sep 2018

7 7 Replies 168 168 Retweets 200 200 likes



If one notices carefully, it is indeed true that the French list was in alphabetical order. This fact was missed, either deliberately or otherwise by the NDTV journalist who proceeded to insinuate wrongdoing on the part of the Indian government.

Image


and in the very lists posted by the "NDTV reporter", ambani's name is also there.

and so is T Survana Raju's :)

Image

Image


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 22 Sep 2018 16:21

My deep worry is that this controversy will derail the critically required S-400 and other deals already cleared some time ago, reported to be sealed when Pres.Putin visits.As I said before, is there a larger angle to M.Hollande's ( well timed?) allegation?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2018 16:34

This is a good enough reason to pick ambani.

The frenchies are past masters in the are of political maneuvering to get their work done.

Ambani's company, its not a new conpany it's been there since 1997.


Harsh Mehta @_PatientTrader

Replying to @smarket
Ambani has nothing to do with Rafale plane manufacturing / supplies, they are just offset partners for defence purchases by Dassault.

However what surprises me is that Dassault chooses a new company without any experience in defense sector as its offset partner. This is big Q
6:51 AM - 21 Sep 2018



Deepak Singh @smarket

Deepak Singh Retweeted Harsh Mehta
Because Dassault has picked Reliance as the company that knows how to work it's way through the bureaucracy. Dassault does not need Technical knowhow

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 22 Sep 2018 16:52

"Carrying with 2 mistresses at the same time , cheating on his " official" paramour ensconced in he Elysee Palace in imperial style, while ( like Clinton and his early morning "jogging") cycling off icognito at dawn to romp in the hay with a young actress"

Mate in my eyes he is a champion. To do all that at his age!!!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2018 17:02

Rafale: Dassault had refused to partner with Bhandari headed OIS because of proximity to Robert Vadra



Rafale: Dassault had refused to partner with Bhandari headed OIS because of proximity to Robert Vadra

ByOpIndia, September 22, 2018

As the debate into the Rafale deal further heats with former French president claiming that Indian government proposed Reliance as offset partner, which both current French government and Dassault Aviation have denied now, there is a need to revisit some details about India’s effort to buy Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) since the beginning.

We have already reported that during the first round of bidding for MMRCA, Dassault had chosen Mukesh Ambani led Reliance Industries are their offset partner and refused to take responsibility for planes made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which ultimately led to the cancellation of the deal.

Although Reliance had signed a MoU with Dassault, reliance lost interest in defence and aviation business after some time, and they allowed the MoU lapse in 2014. At that time there was no clarity about the future of the deal as both Dassault and GOI were adamant on their position about HAL. When the MoU lapsed, company called Offsets India Solutions (OIS) approached Dassault for a possible tie-up. At that time OIS used to be present at all international events in the defence offset sector. An Economic Times report states that “There was considerable pressure to tie up for a partnership. Proposals were made several times and through several people.”

OIS promoter was Sanjay Bhandari, who was allegedly linked with Robert Vadra, Congress president Rahul Gandhi’s brother-in-law. As reported by Economic Times, Few rounds of talks had taken place between the two companies. But when Dassault came to know about Bhandari’s links with Vadra, they decided against partnering with his firm. Reportedly, the Vadra link was one of the main reasons Dassault refused the deal.


Bhandari was under investigation since 2010 in the charges of wrongly influencing defence deals. In May 2016, his offices were raided by Income Tax Department as part of an investigation in a tax evasion case against Bhandari and his company. During the raids, confidential defence ministry documents were found in his possession, which included documents related to India’s proposal to buy mid-air refuellers. The documents were allegedly related to defence purchases and proposals placed before the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC). There were also allegedly copies of minutes of the Contract Negotiation Committee meeting for purchasing refuellers. After this find, he was booked under the Official Secrets Act by Delhi Police. After that Bhandari managed to escape to London before he could be questioned further.

In the documents recovered during these raids, agencies had found some email exchanges between Bhandari and Robert Vadra. According to a report, when ED had confronted Bhandari with the emails, he had acknowledged the email exchanges between him and Vadra. Emails and phone calls scrutinised by investigators also reveal that Bhandari was in regular contact with bureaucrats and politicians apart from private companies in the defence sector. Sources reveal that Bhandari and Vadra were spotted together in social circles and arms expos in various part of the world.

On further investigation by Enforcement Directorate, he was also booked under PMLA and in December last year, ED had seized assets worth ₹26.61 crore belonging to Bhandari. The property was seized in lieu of undisclosed assets held aboard by him.

In January this year, Sanjay Bhandari was declared a ‘proclaimed offender’ by a Delhi court under the Official Secrets Act, due to failure to attend before the court. He is also under CBI investigation for his links with to alleged malpractices in the selection of a Swiss aircraft, Pilatus PC-7. The defence ministry has since suspended all dealings with OIS.


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Sep 2018 17:42

ramana wrote:Philip, I get the feeling future no govt will buy European planes.
It will be Desi, Russian or US.

Modi can learn from Vajpayee. George Fernades as RM resigned due to the "Coffin Scam" but was reinstated with the clear directions that his job is to make decisions and not to shy away from it. The next one Antony fell into the same trap and his chief job was to stall all decisions. Under Modi, the RM post is an afterthought as it has no political dividends and only brickbats as is being proved.

To me, the crux of the matter is the lack of openness on this deal and the shying away from responsibility for the decision that is for the government to make, as per procedure. The charge here is of cronyism, where the payouts are indirect and pervasive. The tragedy, however, is of India's. No matter who the actual beneficiary was, the Indian private industry is still highly dependent on government favors to survive and in turn, does not have the appetite to make transformative investments towards sustained R&D to create a veritable private MIC but instead is happy being the screwdriver version of the private world. The cost of mandating offsets by the vendor will be eventually borne by the Indian taxpayer and in part benefitting a private entity. I do not resent this benefit to a private entity, which is natural but in turn, it has to have built capabilities. I miss Parikkar in that post.

It will be in India's interest to buy technology from smaller EU type nations as they will not have as much leverage to twist our arms on our policies and actions.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rsingh » 22 Sep 2018 18:08

Indian offset requirements (wiki):
Government issued a Defense Procurement Procedure in 2006, revised in 2008 and 2011. The latter came into effect in August, 2012 [61]. The threshold is 3 billion RS (65 mil USD), 30% of offset. Multipliers exist. Above 300 billion RS (697 mil USD), there is a requirement of “indigenization,” that is a Buy Indian requirement for 30% or greater of the contract value. Indian companies and joint ventures are exempted from offset obligations provided the indigenous content is over 50%. For offset are also accepted subcontract in outsourced services, such as engineering, design, and defense software.

Now how on earth they managed to insert a company that has nothing to do with defence?How it is helping in "Indigenisation" ? By inserting corruption? Offset direct benefit from such deal has to go to Indian public , Air force or GOI and not to some private company that has nothing to do with the product imported. Dal me bahut kuch kala hei.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Hari Nair » 22 Sep 2018 18:13

ramana wrote:Hari Nair,
Reliance offset is for parts for other planes made by Dassault.
Also tie up was during UPS with Mota bhai.
Later defence was in Chota bhai share.
He tried to get Russian deals but Modi govt did not oblige.
Somehow Dassault agreed to have him.as partner.
I think Hollande had a hand.


Yes Sir, I know that DRAL JV will essentially , as offset, be assembling/ making Falcon jets at their 30 acre facility in MIHAN, Nagpur.
Yes, he tried his best to get in to the Ka-226 deal, but that deal is different - its the making of Ka-226s in India. Not offsets.
Yes, Hollande appeared to have a $ 1.6 m reason - his partner's film being funded in part by "Chota Bhai" - as we call him here.. :)

Karan M wrote:I don't know why so much fuss is being made about a deal where there is literally no evidence that something bad has happened or any overt corruption occurred.
For all the left/INC guys yammering about Ambani/DRAL getting offsets, can they explain how Scorpene offsets went to pvt firms with literally no prior experience?

BJPs biggest issue has been its cowardice when dealing with the 4th estate and vested interests. Whenever they come to power, they begin grovelling and act overly defensive.


I agree with the poor, flat-footed PR. Re - why the fuss -the point is - once a loose thread appears in an acquisition contract, it invariably leads to discovery or uncovering of other contentious issues which may derail it altogether. Hence, the circling sharks that are scenting blood!

rsingh wrote: Now how on earth they managed to insert a company that has nothing to do with defence?How it is helping in "Indigenisation" ? By inserting corruption? Offset direct benefit from such deal has to go to Indian public , Air force or GOI and not to some private company that has nothing to do with the product imported. Dal me bahut kuch kala hei.


Not really - 50% of the total value of the contract has to be ploughed back into ventures in India by the OEMs (on pro-rata share basis), within given time frames within the defined scope of ventures, which INCLUDES the pvt sector / public sector / DPSUs/ OFBs/ or JVs with any above.
Last edited by Hari Nair on 22 Sep 2018 18:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2018 18:13

Pouring a bucket of ice cold water over the whole ‘Rafale scam exposed’ fiasco




Pouring a bucket of ice cold water over the whole ‘Rafale scam exposed’ fiasco

Byabingdonboy

March 17, 2018

In late 2017 we had penned a rebuttal to the claims regarding the 2016 Rafale deal that had emerged during a particularly heated state election campaign and for a few months, it appeared as though these fictitious claims had evaporated. However, in it is now March 2018 and sadly we are back square one and these accusations are running rampant, again occupying an inordinate amount of attention in political discussions and columns in newspapers. We would thus like to reaffirm the sheer absurdity and fallacies of these claims and hope to have a comprehensive document that can be used to refute any continued efforts to compromise our national security by undermining this deal and any subsequent deals.

Once again, we will begin by assessing the cost breakdown of the Rafale deal signed by the NDA in September 2016 for 36 units (we will use US dollars for ease of comparison but it should be noted that the deal was signed in Euros):

Image

Notes
* an identical unit price to that paid by the French armed forces
** such costs are one off and will not be incurred for any future batches.

It should also be noted that the 2016 Rafale deal was for highly advanced versions of the Rafale (F3+) highly customised to operate in Indian conditions whereas the version being negotiated under the original MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) was the F2 version minus any Indian specific upgrades.

So we can see from the above that there is no deviation from the stated figures for the deal, every single penny is accounted for.

Let’s debunk some more claims, how about the fact that India paid more than the other export customers for the Rafale.

Image

(On 10 March 2018 this graphic appeared on the official Twitter account of India’s main opposition party, @INCIndia)

The reality could not be more contrary:

[img]https://i1.wp.com/myvoice.opindia.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/Screen-Shot-2018-03-13-at-19.40.02.png?zoom=1.25&resize=607%2C361
[/img]
So even though India signed its deal at a later date than the other export customers, when the INR value was significantly higher, it was able to pay less per unit than either Egypt or Qatar whilst at the same time being able to secure a 50% offsets package that will mean that the French side will invest fifty percent the value of the entire deal back into India. Additionally, the IAF (Indian Air Force) deal includes far superior jets to those of the Egyptian and Qatari air forces that are customized to Indian conditions.

Significantly, points of departure from the original MMRCA deal that the UPA had first proposed in 2008 and the NDA’s Rafale deal includes the addition of the world-class weapons systems such as the feared METEOR beyond visual air to air missile (BVRAAM), perhaps the world’s most deadly BVRAAM with a range in excess of 150km and the SCALP air-launched cruise missile (ALCM). Additionally, the NDA was able to secure 50% offsets as opposed to 30% for the MMRCA, the inclusion of a PBL and perhaps most significantly technical assistance for India’s troubled turbofan project, Kaveri.

Offsets

With a fifty percent offset obligation under the NDA deal the French side will be investing almost €4 billion into India. This vast sum of money that will benefit the nation’s aerospace industry immensely and a portion of offsets will be invested in a new joint venture between DA (Dassault Aviation) and Reliance defence; DRAL (Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited). DRAL will not only create massive job opportunities at its newly constructed greenfield facilities in Mihan but will provide a dedicated localized supply chain for the Rafale on Indian soil. Another exceptionally beneficial point is the news that DA intends to place DRAL inside its global supply chain for their world-renowned business jet, Falcon. Thus, India will be in the possession to be part of yet another globally recognized “Tier 1” supplier in the lucrative aerospace industry.

Based on news reports it is clear that the original mandate of MMRCA wherein a dedicated fighter jet production line would be set up locally is still a possibility– as long as India orders more Rafales. This would involve expanding DRAL’s facilities into a standalone Rafale production line with the capacity to produce 16-18 Rafales per annum. This would see India create its first ever aircraft production line outside of the public sector, and here again, the deal diverges from MMRCA as the original MMRCA plan was for HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) to receive the contract for local assembly. For seventy years India has been without serious capacity in the aerospace industry within the private sector that extends beyond sub-assembly production, this is all set to change within the next few years and the ramifications for this cannot be understated. Creating a competitor to HAL in India assisted by one of the world’s premier OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) will have lasting effects for generations to come.

Performance Based Logistics (PBL)

The 2016 NDA Rafale deal includes a comprehensive Performance Based Logistics (PBL) agreement wherein Dassault Aviation (DA) is legally obligated to assure that 75% of the IAF’s Rafale fleet is available for operations at any given moment in time. For comparison, in 2015 the IAF’s SU-30MKI fighter fleet had an availability rate of less than 50% (now should be closer to 60% thanks to measures sanctioned by former defence minister Manohar Parrikar) and the Indian Navy’s premier fighter, the Russian-built MiG-29K, had even lower availability rates than this.

Kaveri

The French are already working to assist with the DRDO’s advanced but plagued turbofan engine, Kaveri, with a view of completing the work so as to be able to fit into a number of current and future platforms that will be both manned and unmanned. The French engine manufacturer, Safran, indicated that 25-30% more work would be needed to make the Kaveri flight-worthy. According to the deal being offered, India would not need to spend any more developmental money on the project and Safran would take on the investment around EUR 1 billion to revive India’s Kaveri project committing to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months. The proposal is to integrate the upgraded Kaveri with the Mk-1A version of the Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.


Furthermore, the NDA Rafale deal was also able to secure an agreement to train the first batches of IAF pilots and ground technicians in France free of cost with an additional guarantee for 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge.

With the significant investments made by the IAF for their Rafales, it would be truly unthinkable that the number would be capped at 36 or even 72 units. For the enormous customisation and basing costs to be justified significant follow-on orders need to be placed but there is no doubt that such orders would benefit immensely from these new conditions. The Indian Navy, in particular, is now in a strong position to take advantage of the investments made by the IAF as they could pool training costs, spares management and operational procedure. To fail to take advantage of such investments by selecting another foreign fighter for the navy or perhaps an even more unjustifiable purchase such as a foreign single-engine jet fighter would be unpalatable and a true insult to the Indian taxpayer.

So where is the scam?

Every single penny is accounted for, the deal abides by the contours of DPP-2016 and we can categorically state that the deal the present govt signed was superior to that of the one that had been proposed under MMRCA as the technical benefits specifically for the Kaveri and LCA projects are immense. Under the MMRCA deal, there had been no such obligation to support local strategic projects. Furthermore, there are strong rumours that the confidential IGA (Inter-Governmental Agreement) signed by the two governments in January 2016 contained an understanding that France would assist in a number of strategic projects of India that go far beyond aerospace. The biggest drawback of the NDA’s Rafale deal is that such few orders were placed; 36 against a total requirement of 189 units (126+ 63 unit follow-on clause). This can be addressed by additional follow-on batches but this has yet to be solidified and with each passing day the IAF’s existing strength depletes further.

It should be noted here that the French officials as senior as the French President and CEO of Dassault Aviation, Mr Eric Trappier, have as recently as the 10th March 2018 reiterated that India’s Rafale deal is fully compliant with Indian and French laws and procedures. Critically, the most significant difference between the MMRCA deal and NDA’s Rafale deal is that the latter is a pure Government to Government (GTG) deal. The significance of this is that a GTG, as opposed to a commercial deal, involves the governments of India and France and their relevant ministries coordinating with each other to come to an agreement on the sale of military equipment. As such, in a GTG deal, there is no scope for “middlemen” or graft and all agreements have to abide by the most stringent conditions and scrutiny imaginable given the fact that the prestige and credibility of both nations are at stake.



Political mudslinging may have become the norm across the political landscape and thus many may have become desensitized to such nefarious campaigns, however, when it comes to defence procurements, these intellectual arguments can have a very real and very damaging effect. Let us not forget the lessons of the past. The Bofors scandal had a lasting impact far beyond the political cost to a particular political party, from the year the last FH77B gun had been inducted into the army (around the late 1980s) until this very year not a single artillery piece had been ordered, meanwhile, India’s enemies had been able to procure thousands of very sophisticated systems. It should not be forgotten that these controversial weapons were declared “saviours” during the 1999 Kargil war but the availability of such weapons was found insufficient. It would be beyond unfortunate for us to encounter such a situation again, where we all are the baby to be thrown out of the bath water and where we find ourselves in need of vastly more Rafales at the exact moment when we need them most.

The accusations against the 2016 Rafale deal whilst clearly devoid of any merit perhaps mark a low point in the political discourse our country has encountered in recent times as not only does this unfairly penalize our own military’s efforts to modernize but as this deal is GTG it puts relations with one of our most critical strategic partners under undue strain as it is an attack on the character of the French military export procedure mechanism. Thus the fallout could not only be harmful to our own military but to our strategic interests.

sources :

defencenewsindia.com

Times Of India

defensenews.com – Qatar Rafale deal

swarajyamag.com – Everything you want to know about the Rafale Deal

reuters.com

france24.com

Karan M
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 22 Sep 2018 18:46

Hari Nair sir, my comment was not directed at your statements but at those of our shrieking 4th estate and the political vultures who are playing with national security for their parochial political needs. The end result is the IAF won't get more of the aircraft it so comprehensively evaluated and selected. Its just so shameful.
BJP's lack of PR is also typified by the babu speak PR in the MOD release above. I slept off on line 2 woke up and I am still on line 5.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Hari Nair » 22 Sep 2018 18:50

I agree totally on the PR! Its mystifying as to why its so poor!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2018 18:54

Minhaz Merchant Verified account @MinhazMerchant

Minhaz Merchant Retweeted Minhaz Merchant

The fact that Dassault is sub-contracting manufacture of spare parts for Dassault’s business jets (not Rafale fighters) to an estimated 72 Indian companies not just Reliance hasn’t been highlighted enough in govt’s response, allowing @RahulGandhi to mislead. Again poor messaging.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Sep 2018 19:31

nam wrote:
ramana wrote:Philip, I get the feeling future no govt will buy European planes.
It will be Desi, Russian or US.


Doubt will be russian due to caasta, doubt will be american due to... caasta

I actually like this ho- ha and caasta.

Now watch how IAF will start liking Indian jets. And funding increase to DRDO :D

Exactly! If this goes down the Bofors path, the IAF will experience what happened to Indian Artillery since the late 80s. And look at the path of Indian Artillery today ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6651&p=2295303#p2295303

Amid all this Hollande hullabaloo, this also happened (which ties in to what nam said above)....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2295796#p2295796


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Sep 2018 19:36

^^^^ So now he is contradicting himself? :roll: Get your story straight Mr President! Which one is it?

"We did not have a choice, we took the interlocutor who was given to us."

VERSUS....

When asked whether India had put pressure on Reliance and Dassault to work together, Hollande said he was UNAWARE and "only Dassault can comment on this."

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Pratyush » 22 Sep 2018 21:03

ArjunPandit wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Wrt reliance for domestic assembly of rafale threre two seperate points to be kept in mind.
in the signed deal there is no assembly involved in India. Only offsets which may or may not result in parts being built in India. So chota Bhai is not manufacturing the complete Jet.

I could only find a merely stating that reliance will contribute to falcon jets, nothing else. Could not find any other link regarding the jet. could you also share your source. Here's mine:
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 018_1.html
Dassault Reliance Aerospace (DRAL) intends to discharge offsets by building civil aerospace components for Dassault’s successful Falcon business jet. Last year, Dassault chief Eric Trappier and Anil Ambani laid the foundation stone of DRAL’s proposed manufacturing facility outside Nagpur.


See, I not saying that chota Bhai will make any jet. The best he can do is built components as per specification given by Dassault. If that is a part of the JV that has been signed. But we know that it is not so.

This in context of the original mmrca deal where the whole jet was to be made in India by Ambani. It is that deal that is dead.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Sep 2018 21:03

Rakesh, Philip, and Hari

Why did Hollande tell these lies?
So easy to refute.
What pressured him to say this?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Srutayus » 22 Sep 2018 21:42

There is a distinct India connection with links to the ecosystem in this episode. The India based French Journalist, Julien Bouissou @jubouissou is an open Modi-baiter who was also involved in trying to derail the PondiLitFest, and nearly succeeded. You can look him up on twitter and verify this yourself.
Who knows what Hollande actually said and what this guy quoted him as. Of course Hollande now essentially contradicts this guys transcription of his statement.

Expect more such things as the elections approach.

And for those of who who wish that Tata, Mahindra Aerospace, TASL, Dynamatics, HAL etc. should have been included in the offsets: They actually are. Everyone of them. Look at my previous post for details on this.
Last edited by Srutayus on 22 Sep 2018 23:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Sep 2018 22:21

Folks, how can we miss that the files for offsets were also found lying in delhi during the all is well upa era
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nati ... 2011-01-07

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby souravB » 22 Sep 2018 23:54

After reading incessant points and counter points for both sides of the deal on every available information channel possible for the last 2 months, This is the summary I could come up with
1. One political party in India allegedly benefited its benefactor while procuring items critical for National Security and astonishingly did not even prepared a counter point beforehand.
2. Another political party in India gives a damn about National Security, Foreign Relations, Future Acquisition, Taxpayer's Money just to prove their point.
With the little experience that I have which says Truth is somewhere in the middle, I'd surmise the political practices need CAG audit not this deal.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 23 Sep 2018 00:32

Reliance didn’t get any offset contract. The contract went to DRAL which would probably be the most competent aerospace company in India because Dassault owns rouhly half of the DRAL company.


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