VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 23 Sep 2018 00:32

Sorry, the truth does not lie in the middle. There is no corruption. Congress wants to pin 1 on Modi and sees a chance in the clause that forbids India to open the terms of the contract. They are alleging corruption, in an assumption that Modi/goi is bond by contract to not reveal the detail and hence their accusation will go unanswered.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 23 Sep 2018 00:45

Let me ask this for a straight forward answer. Did the gov-gov deal include make in India part of this deal or is this 36 outright purchase from France?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 23 Sep 2018 00:47

SaiK wrote:Let me ask this for a straight forward answer. Did the gov-gov deal include make in India part of this deal or is this 36 outright purchase from France?


It is an outright purchase in a G2G deal. No Make in India.

However every buy has to have offset. So 50% of the deal is invested/spend in India by Dassault. There is no building of the jet in India, as all of them come in a flyway condition.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2018 00:52

And which is the way all fighter aircraft purchases should be. Get offsets via components. Regardless of outcome of this ongoing tamasha, MMRCA 3.0 is now done. You can thank RaGa for this. Whether Modi wins in 2019 or not, there will be now be no MMRCA. G2G deals will happen instead. And no license production either. Buy off the shelf.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 23 Sep 2018 01:11

My personal opinion, GoI should go for a biding process. When we buy from outside.

Offset: we want certain percentage of the maintenance( not the initial supply) item/parts to be build in India or certain tech fully given(not screw driver giri). GoI can incentive supplier who would like to build large percentage, in India to take advantage of the low cost.
Example: major engine tech/production tech from France and India orders 200 Rafales etc. GoI decides based on our requirement, if we want local production or tech transfer.

Who gets to build it: GoI should run a open biding process for Indian companies on who gets the contract. You bid the highest, you get to do it. You fail to meet the delivery, you get penalized heavily.

Letting companies choose their partner will always lead to such a mess up.
Last edited by nam on 23 Sep 2018 01:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 23 Sep 2018 01:14

I just ckd. Dassault's official statement.
DRAL was formed as a JV in Feb.2017 to make Falcon and Rafale components at Nagpur as there was a runway
available essential for the same.It adds that similar deals havd been established with other Ind. Cos. However, it says nothing about who picked the R co., whether it did so or whether it was advised by our side to do so.

I can only conjecture that M.Hollande was quietly tryin2g to squeeze some argent for his moll and himself out of suchlike deals.French presidents are notorious for shady transactions; from Emperor Bokassa's diamonds for Valery Giscard d' Estaing.The Markovitch (assassination) affair involving Pres.Pompidou ( allegations of orgies involving his wife, pics of either his wife or a hooker lookalike) and actor Alain Delon and his associate.
Chirac and the Iskandar- Safa scandal and corruption when mayor of Paris.
Mitterand and Angolagate (shady arms deals).
Bettencourt affair involving Pres.Sarkovy and illegal campaign funding.
Karachi ( Agosta 90-B sub scandal) involving Chirac.
Fillon affair:
Taiwan frigate affair.
Benella affair involving Macron.....the list can go on!?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby CRamS » 23 Sep 2018 01:30

Guys, my interpretation of Holland's latest from rediff which I also posted on a sister forum. Comments?


Former French president Francois Hollande said that France did not choose to partner with Indian businessman Anil Ambani's company in 'any way' and added that only Dassault can comment on the Rafale fighter jet deal.

Asked whether India had put pressure on Reliance and Dassault to work together, Hollande told French news agency AFP that he was unaware and 'only Dassault can comment on this'.


Hollande was responding to a question by the French news agency on the sidelines of an event in Canada on Friday.

"That is why, moreover, this group (Reliance) did not have to give me any thanks for anything," the former French president added.

In an interview to a media house that appeared on Friday, Hollande had said that Dassault Aviation was given no choice but to partner with Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence for the offset clause in the Rafale deal.

In an article published by French journal Mediapart, Hollande to a question about who selected Reliance as a partner and why, said it was the Indian government that proposed Reliance's name and Dassault had no choice but to take the company given to it.

"We did not have a say in that. The Indian government proposed this service group, and Dassault negotiated with Ambani. We did not have a choice, we took the interlocutor we were given," said Hollande.

The interview was published in French and excerpts of Hollande's interview were tweeted by French newspaper LeMonde's journalist Julien Boissou.

His reported statement contradicts Indian government's claim that the agreement between Dassault and Reliance was a commercial pact between two private parties and the government had nothing to do with it.



I would day 2 things:

1. The first bolded part knocks the living shit out of Pappu for a massive Chris Gayle sixer out of Chinnaswamy stadium in Bangalore

2. The second bolded part is interesting. More than wanting to implicate ModiJi, Holand wanted to cover his ass from the allegation that he chose Reliance in return for Reliance making the movie about his concubine. That was then seized by Pappu's slaves, translated into sound bytes and programmed into Pappu's little brain.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby CRamS » 23 Sep 2018 01:38

souravB wrote:After reading incessant points and counter points for both sides of the deal on every available information channel possible for the last 2 months, This is the summary I could come up with
1. One political party in India allegedly benefited its benefactor while procuring items critical for National Security and astonishingly did not even prepared a counter point beforehand.
2. Another political party in India gives a damn about National Security, Foreign Relations, Future Acquisition, Taxpayer's Money just to prove their point.
With the little experience that I have which says Truth is somewhere in the middle, I'd surmise the political practices need CAG audit not this deal.


Bull shit. You are trying to do the equivalent of a Paki style equal equal on terror with India when they are the ones immersed in it.

Looking at it objectively, there is absolutely no corruption. One may have a question here or there, and some may question the very deal based on cost/benefit analysis, thats it. The Pappu slaves and traitors wanted to stick the stigma of corruption against ModiJi's name because in Indian politics as everywhere that tag could sink any politician. They used the complicated deal to sow the seeds of confusion, fabricated 'facts', used their friendly media like UndY, print, scroll etc; and lit a fire.

The status quo ante has been restored. Holland's gas was not the smoking gun, it was not a fatal blow to ModiJi that Pappu slaves were salivating over for a few hours yesterday.

Real corruption is what Queen madam and her Durbar indulged in while they were in power. No comparison whatsoever between BJP govt and Congoons when it comes to corruption.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Srutayus » 23 Sep 2018 02:05

1. One political party in India allegedly benefited its benefactor while procuring items critical for National Security and astonishingly did not even prepared a counter point beforehand.
2. Another political party in India gives a damn about National Security, Foreign Relations, Future Acquisition, Taxpayer's Money just to prove their point.
With the little experience that I have which says Truth is somewhere in the middle, I'd surmise the political practices need CAG audit not this deal.


Since the offset companies include essentially every company that can do such offsets in India, such as Tata Areospace, Dynamatic, Taneja, Godrej, Samtel, HAL etc. in addition to the Reliance JV, why single out one as the "benefactor"
If the list of offset partners so far approached by Dassault is proscribed, it will proscribe almost every company capable of undertaking Aerospace related offset work in India including HAL.
And the offset contracts have not even been submitted by Dassault to the MoD yet. So so far it is Dassault, Thales etc. talking and formulating agreements with a host of Indian entities, to meet the 50% stipulation.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 23 Sep 2018 02:10

Rakesh wrote:And which is the way all fighter aircraft purchases should be. Get offsets via components. Regardless of outcome of this ongoing tamasha, MMRCA 3.0 is now done. You can thank RaGa for this. Whether Modi wins in 2019 or not, there will be now be no MMRCA. G2G deals will happen instead. And no license production either. Buy off the shelf.

blessing in disguise for Tejas Mk3 or AMCA.

---

regarding offsets, it should have processes. so, nothing should be hidden and all transparent. no gov should hide any 50% aspect, as this the DPP model.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Srutayus » 23 Sep 2018 02:33

The offset contracts, which are both under negotiation and signed, are being disclosed by Dassault dependent on the level of fruition.
MoD has no stand on this matter at least until the contracts are submitted to them by Dassault, Thales etc. for verification of the fulfillment of the 50% offset obligation.
And if the opposition with RaGa were to populate the government in 2019, MMRCA or the AMCA will the least of the problems for Indian national security. They have given ample demonstration of this with the Rafale saga.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 23 Sep 2018 03:06

wait a minute.. is there an offset clause for gov-gov purchase?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby souravB » 23 Sep 2018 04:13

CRamS wrote:Bull shit. You are trying to do the equivalent of a Paki style equal equal on terror with India when they are the ones immersed in it.

Looking at it objectively, there is absolutely no corruption. One may have a question here or there, and some may question the very deal based on cost/benefit analysis, thats it.

CRamS ji, exactly my point. I am not alleging them of corruption but stupidity.

Srutayus wrote:Since the offset companies include essentially every company that can do such offsets in India, such as Tata Areospace, Dynamatic, Taneja, Godrej, Samtel, HAL etc. in addition to the Reliance JV, why single out one as the "benefactor"
If the list of offset partners so far approached by Dassault is proscribed, it will proscribe almost every company capable of undertaking Aerospace related offset work in India including HAL.
And the offset contracts have not even been submitted by Dassault to the MoD yet. So so far it is Dassault, Thales etc. talking and formulating agreements with a host of Indian entities, to meet the 50% stipulation.

But, forming a JV is not just fulfilling offset. DRAL is a separate entity. isn't that's what Chota Bhai tried to explain at the press conference. and the cynic in me refuses to believe DA didn't do it's due diligence before getting into partnership.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2018 06:29

nam wrote:
ramana wrote:Philip, I get the feeling future no govt will buy European planes.
It will be Desi, Russian or US.

Doubt will be russian due to caasta, doubt will be american due to... caasta

I actually like this ho- ha and caasta.

Now watch how IAF will start liking Indian jets. And funding increase to DRDO :D

Nam, see below....FWIW...

MMRCA 3.0 bye bye? :lol:

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/10 ... 1654322181 ---> A friend, a young DRDO scientist just texted: Maybe this entire controversy is good for ‘self-reliant India’. No govt official will even think of signing on any big ticket procurement files. And funds saved will per force be poured into indigenous aircraft & weapons projects.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2018 06:33

And RaGa's grandiose plan - to paint the Prime Minister as a Chor - goes down in flames. Only he and his cronies will now keep on harping about the scam, like he has done to date.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/10 ... 3130820609 ---> So basically after telling Mediapart that Anil Ambani was imposed on Dassault, Hollande now appears to completely switch tracks, telling AFP he is ‘unaware’ of such an imposition and that only Dassault can answer. (Dassault did answer last night to say they made the choice).

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Sep 2018 06:59

Rakesh wrote:
nam wrote:Doubt will be russian due to caasta, doubt will be american due to... caasta

I actually like this ho- ha and caasta.

Now watch how IAF will start liking Indian jets. And funding increase to DRDO :D

Nam, see below....FWIW...

MMRCA 3.0 bye bye? :lol:

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/10 ... 1654322181 ---> A friend, a young DRDO scientist just texted: Maybe this entire controversy is good for ‘self-reliant India’. No govt official will even think of signing on any big ticket procurement files. And funds saved will per force be poured into indigenous aircraft & weapons projects.

Someone may need to create t-shirts with more than 324.
Another thing no one talks about is potential role of usa in such subterfuges. Yesterday I was reading the elaborate article by tellis uncle about why teens were best for India from mmrca days. They still haven't given up their desire to come to India with carefree planes capable of 7.5 g only

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 23 Sep 2018 07:02

I have been channel surfing to find out the various
viewpoints of the govt./ party spokespersons and opposition cynics,defence analysts, plus IAF officers.Here are some observations which may cut through the rhetoric and inaccurate info. being debated upon by the poorly informed.

First observation: Poor knowledge by the channels and anchors on the merits of aircraft types and defence in general.One channel was putting out incorrect stats comparing the Rafale and SU-30 on range etc.SU-30 only 450km.Rafale 750 km.

This is what Vayu 3/18 reported about the Gagansakthi, air exercises. " The largest mil. exercise since Brasstacks."

I quote:
"The Sukhoi 30MKIs , with a combat radius of 1500km, WITHOUT mid-air refuelling operated from an eastern coastal base to strike targets in the western seaboard
over distances 2200km away before recovering to a southern base covering a distance of about 4000km in single non- stop missions."
(No Rafale can equal that or carry BMos. Not that the bird is a bad deal, far from it.).

What stood out from the exercise was that mil. targets
" alongside India's maritime boundary are within striking range of the IAF SU-30MKIs taking off from southern bases including Sulur and Thanjavur carrying BMos missiles , having a range of 300km ,carried out simulated strikes in the Malacca Straits, the 9 degree channel and other sensitive areas."

The IAF was able to achieve 80% of aircraft serviceability while ground radars and weaponry were about 97% with some combat systems over 40 years old.That's no mean feat.

Second observation:
Even poorer mil. knowledge by most panellists. The frustrated sr. IAF officers railed at them for their inferior
knowledge , almost frothing at the mouth. The obsessive note on maintaining " secrecy" of the deal's details. Dassault ,said a former MS for defence, had put out costing details to its shareholders, so what was sacrosant? Barring specific performance data of the aircraft and eqpt., one former starred officer said that in a democracy the GOI should take the Oppn. ( sr. leaders) into confidence since they were MPs and have already taken an oath of secrecy, etc. This will/ should put and end to this bickering which was impinging upon national security and the IAF in particular.

Third observation:
Claims and counterclaims on the UPA 126 aircraft deal and merits of the NDA 36 aircraft deal.Pricing, extra add-ons etc.Without available hard data we are somewhat clueless.The Oppn. maintain that their deal had the same config. as the 36 ac., fully loaded plus TOT. Not so says the govt.spokespersons and some IAF top brass, time had passed and some new eqpt. was added.The Q about TOT has not been touched upon.

Fourth observation:
Why was HAL, a 70 yr. old co. and manufacturer of sev.ac types ditched at the 11th hour , and a 2 week old R co. chosen? Here the official statements of Dassault are curious.Just days before the deal for 36 was signed, CEO Trappier said "95%" of the details had been agreed upon with HAL.Some IAF top brass say HAL is poor in delivery with a poor track record. AM Barbora pithily said that in 2009 he was supposed to form the first LCA sqd., but 10 years down the line what were the results? This is a common refrain from many, that Dassault refusing to guarantee ( in the UPA deal) HAL manufactured aircraft on quality and delivery. An understandable stance borne out by some IAF top brass, but choosing the newborn R co. instead?

Fifth observation:
It is the French who have moved the goalposts on the partner of choice, not India.Here the GOI is spot on.
Dassault's CEO Trappier lauded HAL days before the deal was sealed, saying " 95%" of the deal had been agreed upon, but now after M.Hollande's bombshell when asked why HAL was ditched said that THEY were free to choose their partner and had chosen several other cos. for various othrr items!

Hollande , who is under fire for his shady dealings with his mistresses, now rocking France, is trying to extricate himself from his misdemeanours, trying to dump his fecal matter on Mr.Modi's doorstep and like Pontius Pilate wash his hands off the affair. But it was none other than he as president of the French republic who signed the deal! The contradictions between the two French entities and their statements show that someone in France is " being economical with the truth".

I postulate that it it is the former French president, who got Mr.A allegedly to finance his moll's film who persuaded Dassault to change their tune as he was top dog and they HAD to obey him.Why would they have to take orders from an Indian PM? As long as they guaranteed on delivery, price, performance, etc., and this was a clean outright purchase, why would our PM interfere in their choice of partner/s? Our PM is doing the right thing for now by staying silent watching the French get their undies in a twist as they juggle with their words.

PS: IAF officers are truly worried about losing Rafales after years of effort in selecting and negotiating the deal and the fallout on other procurement items.
However, even some Congress-wallahs compare the ac with the Bofors gun,saying how well it performed at Kargil so I do have some hope on future buys providex the price is reasonable.This is a point that the opposition is making ,that on Bofors there was a huge debate in the house and the same debate was needed today to get a clear picture.

As Rakesh said, this controversy is killing the new MRCA contest apart from almost burying the future buys of Rafale , and the worst fears of most of the military on what will happen, stalemate on critical defence items and the armed forces and the nation the ultimate losers .

Yes, the US and Ru will now push for G-to-G direct deals touting their wares and the GOI may end up doing just that.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 23 Sep 2018 08:42

Okay.. some good data here on Reliance
https://www.opindia.com/2018/09/fact-ch ... cians/amp/

So what is the deal with Reliance?
The 36 Rafales will not be made in India, so it’s a no-brainer that Reliance will not be making that. But the interesting point is, they are not even making parts for it. Yes, Dassault Reliance Aerospace is not even making parts for Rafale like HAL and some Indian companies will be doing, forget the whole plane. The company will make parts for the Falcon 2000 civil jet plane that is manufactured by Dassault Aviation. This company is now part of the global supply chain network of Dassault, and they have already started manufacturing parts and sending them to assembly plants. Dassault will be investing around € 100 million in the joint venture with Reliance as part of offset obligations related to the Rafale deal, which is less than 3% of the total offset obligation. Reliance is not getting US$20 billion or even US$4 billion as Rahul Gandhi seems to believe, the investment is less than USD$ 120 million.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 23 Sep 2018 09:44

I hope there is good buy to small arms purchases!


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby jpremnath » 23 Sep 2018 10:20

souravB wrote:
CRamS wrote:Bull shit. You are trying to do the equivalent of a Paki style equal equal on terror with India when they are the ones immersed in it.

Looking at it objectively, there is absolutely no corruption. One may have a question here or there, and some may question the very deal based on cost/benefit analysis, thats it.

CRamS ji, exactly my point. I am not alleging them of corruption but stupidity.

Srutayus wrote:Since the offset companies include essentially every company that can do such offsets in India, such as Tata Areospace, Dynamatic, Taneja, Godrej, Samtel, HAL etc. in addition to the Reliance JV, why single out one as the "benefactor"
If the list of offset partners so far approached by Dassault is proscribed, it will proscribe almost every company capable of undertaking Aerospace related offset work in India including HAL.
And the offset contracts have not even been submitted by Dassault to the MoD yet. So so far it is Dassault, Thales etc. talking and formulating agreements with a host of Indian entities, to meet the 50% stipulation.

But, forming a JV is not just fulfilling offset. DRAL is a separate entity. isn't that's what Chota Bhai tried to explain at the press conference. and the cynic in me refuses to believe DA didn't do it's due diligence before getting into partnership.



For the common man, Ambani name is mud. Any deal he makes which involves public money is deemed corrupt. The background to this deal doesn't convince anyone otherwise. A company which has no worthwhile industrial or technical expertise is chosen over a PSU aviation major for an overseas defense contract. The congis don't even have to try hard..Even when the Ambani name in Rafale was announced, i knew this is gonna be trouble for the govt. I am only surprised it took this long for the congis to wake up...

Unfortunately for both Govt and IAF, the Hollande U turn, statements from Dassault and French govt and other fine print is not gonna change perception on ground...For the man on street, all foreign defense deal has plenty of scope for corruption and when an Ambani name is involved, he is already convinced.

I have a feeling the reason congis are going full throttle on Rafale now because they want to prevent BJP from calling for early elections in Dec.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2018 11:18

Philip wrote:I have been channel surfing to find out the various
viewpoints of the govt./ party spokespersons and opposition cynics,defence analysts, plus IAF officers.Here are some observations which may cut through the rhetoric and inaccurate info. being debated upon by the poorly informed.

First observation: Poor knowledge by the channels and anchors on the merits of aircraft types and defence in general.One channel was putting out incorrect stats comparing the Rafale and SU-30 on range etc.SU-30 only 450km.Rafale 750 km.

This is what Vayu 3/18 reported about the Gagansakthi, air exercises. " The largest mil. exercise since Brasstacks."

I quote:
"The Sukhoi 30MKIs , with a combat radius of 1500km, WITHOUT mid-air refuelling operated from an eastern coastal base to strike targets in the western seaboard
over distances 2200km away before recovering to a southern base covering a distance of about 4000km in single non- stop missions."
(No Rafale can equal that or carry BMos. Not that the bird is a bad deal, far from it.).


This has been posted a zillion times on BRF but as usual, you are more interested in repeating DDM talking points rather than looking into the specifics.

The 1500km combat radius of the Flanker is *notional* - as in occurs only with a very limited combat payload, of 4 AAMs which are launched midway into the mission and then it returns! Kindly see the Irkut/Sukhoi websites - or BRF posts earlier.

Second, Flanker does not carry fuel tanks - that is where it goes into a disadvantage vs Rafale which can have a heavy config of full internal + heavy tanks + weapons. That accounts for the 750km vs 450km comment.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 23 Sep 2018 11:26

By the by, the R co. or RDL for that matter, according to the latest handout by the "D" co., Dassault not Daw**d,, is going to make parts of the Falcon AND the Rafale at its Nagpur facility. The problem with French milware is that it comes at massive cost and if you add lifecycle costs imposes a huge financial burden upon the buyer long term.

I've often posted out how the cost of just one M2K to M-2000/5 std. is costing us upwards of $50M , (50+ for $2.5B) with a current spat between HAL and the IAF over labour costs threatening to derail the upgrade.In comparison with the 67 MIG-29 upgrade to equiv. std. incl. new smokeless engines,costing us just $900M for the lot, working out to less than $15 M a pop!
We got shafted too on the Scorpene deal with huge cost escalation and delays tx. to poor drafting of the deal.

This cost factor is why MP when DM had extra MKIs in his pocket as the option if the cost was exorbitant. This is also why in my honest opinion the PM cut the size down to just 36 - what we could afford, and hope that the LCA made rapid progress along with sustained MKI production to resolve the fighter numbers issue .Franco- Indian ties were also at stake.Remember how France stood by us after P-2.There is a genuine concern about HAL's ability to produce fighters cost-effectively and on time.AM Barbora, former VCoAS mentioned the almost decade long delay in building the first sqd., of which a bare handful have been delivered.NS recently instituted an inquiry as to how a desi LCA was costing more than any firang equivalent, almost as much as a Nasik built MKI!

The ability of the R co.to wheedle itself into receiving political favours is legendary.Here is where the smoking gun appears.The pay-off to M.Hollande's mistress- finance for her film. Naturally Dassault had to say " oui" to le president, as it and its other associated French defence names are engaged in so many international arms deals
where the French have arranged for pay- offs to customers especially in the MEast to clinch the deals.These could only be possible with the full cooperation of its top political leadership.Read the Karachi sub scandal.

Now here are details from a report.During the UPA time there was inordinate delays in sealing the deal.I asked a few years ago a knowledgeable source the reason.The source alleged that a certain " biker" wanted his finger in the pie.The D co. according to the report, allegedly refused a desi offset co. a partnership in the Raffy deal becos he was involved with that co. The same gent is fighting off his underhand deeds in alleged real-estate scams too. This may be one v.good reason why his relative is breathing fire and thunder from podiums about the deal, because BIL was cut out!

One cannot put it past M.Hollande from "dipping his wick"
not only into his moll's ..ahem...but also in the Raffy deal.
I've earlier posted details of a long list of scandals involving almost every French president since de Gaulle.Hollande is no exception.The Hollande, D co. and R co. ties should be examined closely.It is most unfortunate that our PM has been caught in the crossfire trying to his bit for the IAF and nation.

PS: The Flanker MKI capability and its performance at Gagansakthi is taken from the VAYU report and not cooked up by me.To equate the far smaller Raffy's capabilities with the BMos capable MKI is stretching the imagination too far. The Raffy is a fine bird, well chosen by the IAF and is a single-seater to boot.Its acquisition stands on its own merits.However, the point I was making was the stupid attempts by some channels to justify the Raffy buy on inaccurate data and comparison of the two.
It is these flawed channel debates and reports that ultimately has an influence upon public opinion.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Dileep » 23 Sep 2018 13:32

The French is frantically running around to dump offset work on desi companies. Mostly low tech/previous generation stuff onlee.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Dileep » 23 Sep 2018 13:40

My 2 NP

I am pretty sure that there was a wink-wink nod-nod towards chota bhai to get the JV with Dassault. As a tax paying vote casting citizen, I see no problem with that. I am also pretty sure that no money went to any hidden accounts in this deal.

I think what the govt to do is to formally call Pappu and some MPs with some brain into the committee rooms in Parliament for a briefing and formally debunk their claims. Then come out and refer to that briefing in public to fight back. Like: "This allegation is clearly answered at time 11:23:45 during the secret briefing".

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 23 Sep 2018 13:41

Dileep wrote:The French is frantically running around to dump offset work on desi companies. Mostly low tech/previous generation stuff onlee.


This is true. It is time we realize, military tech IP is not something that you can easily buy. The only way for Indian industries to get tech is through DRDO. However the issue is our industries are not interested in IP. They want IT style outsourcing. Ofcourse GoI is also at fault. It hardly encourages IP generation and takes ages to give a order.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Dileep » 23 Sep 2018 16:46

There are a few 'build to spec' opportunities coming, which are contemporary for commercial aviation. Not sure if any projects are 'awarded' yet.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 23 Sep 2018 22:51

Dileep wrote:The French is frantically running around to dump offset work on desi companies. Mostly low tech/previous generation stuff onlee.

They will go by the books! if we have to counter this, we have to rewrite our DPP and policies on 50% offsets. We can't have open ended at the top, expect the result at the bottom. Our law makers are struggling with us, and so are we with them. We have serious issues in exactly chartering our wishes in advanced engineering.. we can't just do a copy like chinese, nor invent similar to maasans.[the word is "similar"/no complains]

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 24 Sep 2018 12:36

ramana wrote:Philip, I get the feeling future no govt will buy European planes.
It will be Desi, Russian or US.


This is probably the game being played by US and Russia, thorough their local goons. The local goons are either bought / too dumb to realise that how they are the pawns in the dirty arms game. The winner US and/or Russia and thier lackeys, losers Indian and tax paying Indian citizens

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 24 Sep 2018 12:45

Philip wrote:My deep worry is that this controversy will derail the critically required S-400 and other deals already cleared some time ago, reported to be sealed when Pres.Putin visits.As I said before, is there a larger angle to M.Hollande's ( well timed?) allegation?


Russian "eco system" in Indian defence deals is very strong. Nothing will happen. Why we have bought hundreds of Mi8 / Mi 17 aircrat as outright purchase from Russia without any offsets deals !!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 25 Sep 2018 02:37

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Sep 2018 02:42

Why We Chose Anil Ambani's Firm Despite Massive Debt: Dassault Sources
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafale- ... ce-1921482

Rafale deal: HAL, sources in favour of the deal say, never had any interest in serving as an offset partner of Dassault Aviation -- instead, it wanted to build the main structure of the fighter jets here.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Sep 2018 02:44

ET does not permit cut-and-paste...

Rafale will not be cancelled, will wait for CAG report: Arun Jaitley
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 919848.cms

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Sep 2018 04:14

Rakesh wrote:Why We Chose Anil Ambani's Firm Despite Massive Debt: Dassault Sources
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafale- ... ce-1921482

Rafale deal: HAL, sources in favour of the deal say, never had any interest in serving as an offset partner of Dassault Aviation -- instead, it wanted to build the main structure of the fighter jets here.


What Dassault says on why Reliance was "chosen"?
Dassault, one of the world's most established and experienced defence manufacturers, picked Anil Ambani's debt-ridden firm as a partner in India, "because it was registered with the MCA (Ministry of Corporate Affairs) and had land in Nagpur which provided access to the runway," said top sources at the French firm, speaking to NDTV on the condition of anonymity.


The PM along Ambani went to Paris in April 2015 to announce the deal. The Ambani group was allocated land for its plant in Nagpur only in August 2015. So, clearly the land could not have been the reason for its selection prior to August 2015.

Also, as we know land and that too with access to an airport is a highly controlled issue. Almost no one will believe ADAG was the chosen partner due to any inherent merits of the group's capabilities.

Reliance Group gets land in Nagpur for aerospace park
“We started on 16 June 2015 with the first presentation and in less than 10 weeks we got the land. This is a record,” said Anil Ambani, chairman of Reliance Group.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rudradev » 25 Sep 2018 04:52

ShauryaT wrote:What Dassault says on why Reliance was "chosen"?
Dassault, one of the world's most established and experienced defence manufacturers, picked Anil Ambani's debt-ridden firm as a partner in India, "because it was registered with the MCA (Ministry of Corporate Affairs) and had land in Nagpur which provided access to the runway," said top sources at the French firm, speaking to NDTV on the condition of anonymity.


So NDTV is passing off the alleged words of some (conveniently anonymous) "top sources" as == "what Dassault says" (i.e. an official statement by the company).

Dassault itself has never stated that it selected Anil Ambani's firm as a partner because of land owned by it in Nagpur.

That is a fabrication serving the interests of inveterate anti-nationals like Arun Shourie, Prashant Bhushan, and their ilk.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Sep 2018 06:25

Reliance Part of Modi Govt’s ‘New Formula’: What Hollande Told AFP
(This article has been updated to reflect former French President Francois Hollande’s full statement to news agency AFP.)

On Friday, 21 September, several Indian news websites, including The Quint, published former French President Francois Hollande’s statement to news agency Agence-France Press (AFP), in which it seemed he was “unaware” whether India had put pressure on Reliance and Dassault to work together. In the same statement, he seemed to have told AFP that "only Dassault can comment on this."

However, as it turns out, that wasn’t Hollande’s full statement on what he told AFP on the Modi government’s hand in orchestrating the Reliance-Dassault tie-up in the Rafale deal.

Hollande actually reaffirmed his statement that the Modi government had proposed Anil Ambani’s Reliance as a partner for Dassault.

What Hollande Actually Told AFP

To clear up all doubts, here’s the actual statement made by Hollande to AFP, that was later published in Le Monde, and reported by Scroll:

“Asked by AFP on the sidelines of a conference in Montreal on Friday, Hollande said that the name of Reliance Group had appeared as part of a ‘new formula’ in negotiations over the Rafale deal, decided by the Modi government after it came to power.”
“Asked if he knew whether India put pressure for the Reliance Group to work with Dassault, Hollande said that he was ‘unaware’ and ‘Dassault alone is capable of answering’ he added, anxious to not intervene in the Indian controversy.”
This statement made by Hollande, that the Ambani-led Reliance Group was part of a “new formula” for the Rafale deal that was put forth by the Modi government, alone appears contradictory to the government’s claim that it had nothing to do with Dassault’s decision to go with Reliance.

While the second part of Hollande’s statement, also quoted by the news agencies on Friday, where he said he was “unaware” whether India put pressure for the Reliance Group to work with Dassault, neither confirms nor denies the same allegation, it suggests two things:

That his government did not have any role to play in choosing Reliance as Dassault’s proposed partner in the Rafale deal
That it was the Modi government which put forth Reliance’s name as part of its “new” and “official” formula
This is important, because the government has not denied putting forward Anil Ambani’s Reliance as a proposed partner, Scroll reported.


The highlighted is what the government seems to be unwilling to own up to. Instead of GoI running away from its decisions and hide behind confidentiality clauses, best to come clean and own up to the decisions made. The problem is the more the spin masters speak the more they are caught in a web of lies and half-truths. Why was ADAG proposed needs a reasonable explanation?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Pratyush » 25 Sep 2018 06:44

Adag was proposed by GOI to do exactly what. What is the value of the offset that adag is having as compared to others.

What is adag making?

What's wrong with ADAG being supported by government? And why?

Just because people don't like a pvt group, any assistance to it becomes a scam.

When the government has made it a priority as make in India.

This is beyond stupid off the congress. A whole new level of Pappu girl.

And this brings me to a post I made a few days ago. If you have made your mind that a scam has taken place. Nothing will change your mind.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Sep 2018 06:51

ShauryaT, What is the value of the contract that Anil Ambani got form the 50% offset? Say in %
50%, 25%, 10%?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Sep 2018 07:00

ramana wrote:ShauryaT, What is the value of the contract that Anil Ambani got form the 50% offset? Say in %
50%, 25%, 10%?
upwards of 50%, is my understanding. 21,000 crores is the figure being mentioned.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 25 Sep 2018 07:16

Rakesh wrote:Why We Chose Anil Ambani's Firm Despite Massive Debt: Dassault Sources
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafale- ... ce-1921482

Rafale deal: HAL, sources in favour of the deal say, never had any interest in serving as an offset partner of Dassault Aviation -- instead, it wanted to build the main structure of the fighter jets here.


The type work that Reliance would do is something that HAL outsources to private sectors. They fancy themselves as prime systems integrator.


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