VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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pankajs
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 26 Sep 2018 10:17

This whole false campaign is to swing the fence sitting urban voter.

Remember what happened in Bangalore last year? IF only Bangalore Urban has gone to BJP it would now be in power in Karnataka. 4 or 5 seat swing is all it took.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prasad » 26 Sep 2018 11:23

The 21k crores comes direct from DRAL. Lookup the press release they put out, and its on Dassault's site too. Its a 'prospective' figure. Nothing is inked. There is no concrete figure that I could find anywhere on the net that puts a figure on the offsets obligation amount that Dassault is doing with the DRAL jv. Besides, iirc offsets submission & approval still has time. So it is up to the government to accept/reject I think.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kashi » 26 Sep 2018 11:34

It's all about optics and perceptions, as pointed out, GoI's response has been reasonable on substance, but lacking in optics and fiery repartees.

I suppose GoI is waiting for the CAG report and RaGa is going all out to pre-empt its impact on subsequent discussion.

Regardless, it will be unfortunate if Rafale induction is capped at 36 because of this partisan saga.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 26 Sep 2018 20:10

ShauryaT, the link posted by you confirms the numbers I posted earlier. If you pay attention to ddm english and desperate reporting you can see what they are saying. Again people will believe what they want to believe.

Total offset Liability from Rafale deal is Rs 28k core
Dassault’s share of the liability is Rs 14k corer
DRDL’s share from this deal is Rs 6k corer
Anil’s 51% comes to Rs 3k corer or few hundred million euros. Exactly what Tavleen said. Thiese are facts from the deal itself not who said what and how it was reported.


Cornering Rs 21k corer of business is the corporate goal of the reliance/DRDL from all offset businesses from all deals that Indian armed forces have struck.

Dassault have additional offset liability besides Rafale deal and some of it could go to DRDL in future.

DRDL would also do additional business beyond offset obligations for Dassault that Dassault would claim as offsets in future.

Still the deal does provide a good startup boost to Reliance in aerospace business which could be worth billions of dollars in the future. Unfortunately the teality of private MIC in India is really pathetic, no ones made or making any money so far except for Small sums by MSMEs or subcontractors. This ( and dealing with govt and corruption allegations) is the reason mota bhai backed off.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 26 Sep 2018 20:24

Prasad wrote:The 21k crores comes direct from DRAL. Lookup the press release they put out, and its on Dassault's site too. Its a 'prospective' figure. Nothing is inked. There is no concrete figure that I could find anywhere on the net that puts a figure on the offsets obligation amount that Dassault is doing with the DRAL jv. Besides, iirc offsets submission & approval still has time. So it is up to the government to accept/reject I think.


Why don’t you post it and show exactly where it says that Dassault has Rs 21 k core of offset obligatins from Rafale deal that are being filled by DRDL.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby souravB » 27 Sep 2018 00:18

Katare wrote:
Prasad wrote:The 21k crores comes direct from DRAL. Lookup the press release they put out, and its on Dassault's site too. Its a 'prospective' figure. Nothing is inked. There is no concrete figure that I could find anywhere on the net that puts a figure on the offsets obligation amount that Dassault is doing with the DRAL jv. Besides, iirc offsets submission & approval still has time. So it is up to the government to accept/reject I think.


Why don’t you post it and show exactly where it says that Dassault has Rs 21 k core of offset obligatins from Rafale deal that are being filled by DRDL.

just to add:
out of 4bil*70 = 28k crore, Safran alone has a share of approx 1bil*70= 7k crore which they are fulfilling through GTRE. After that there is Thales, MBDA etc shares. So the share of DA alone should much less than 21k crore.

considerations: 1euro = 70 rs.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 27 Sep 2018 02:53

Had a fun conversation with a Congress supporter(CS):

CS: Modi snatched Rafale from HAL and gave away to Reliance with 0 capability in aerospace, history of financial losses. How can Reliance build Rafale given the truth about its technical and financial capabilities ?

Me: Rafale is supposed to be delivered in Sept 2019, so can you show me some picture of assembly line in Reliance factory building Rafale for IAF ? It should be almost ready or something.

CS: Looks confused. Pauses, ponders for a few moments then shifts goalpost ....... Ok but Reliance will be building some part for Rafale, how can it do that when it has 0 experience.

Me: Dassault is actually building Rafale and is giving guarantee for Rafale quality. If they are not complaining about Reliance manufacturing of whatever was given to them then why are you ? Has IAF mentioned anything alarming in this regard ? When both user and manufacturer are happy what is your problem ?

CS: Keeps quiet

Me: On the other hand if Reliance is able to manufacture some part for Rafale and Falcon business jet successfully, there will be one more player in the mix, good for India in the long term, good for our local manufacturing capabilities, good for job seeking youth. Given these benefits if Reliance is successful do you have any problem ? Dassault is held responsible by GoI for any lapses in schedule or quality so it will consider all risk factors and mitigation before involving Reliance in whatever way. Reliance is offset partner for Dassault. They choose it because it has access to run way where they can test prototypes for Falcon etc.. (Dassault is thinking long term .. in case they have to test fly falcon or rafale if they are built locally)

CS: Shifts goalpost ... But see the problem is Reliance was given offset by Dassault ....

Me: I interject, Reliance is not the only partner there as many as 70 more. (Show the picture from LiveFist for all Offset partners)

CS: Shifts goalpost ... But price has been escalated three times you see what a wastage of taxpayer's money and sure some of this will help ADAG through offsets

Me: Show IAF presentation about better pricing and plane. Then I show him BMW 7 series is 2-3 times price of BMW 3 series. Both are same cars from same manufacturer but different model & configuration.

CS: But UPA negotiated a lesser price, its concerned about not wasting IAF's budget, they care for IAF

Me: Showed Anthony's video where it was explicitly mentioned India has no money to buy Rafale. So after playing around with all international manufacturer's for 7-8 years you tell them in the end we don't have money. (We made a pappu out of you :)). If they really cared about IAF why not in 10 years the deal was signed. What could be more pressing than IAF's repeated alarms that they are in dire straits. Modi realized the pathetic situation we were in and did the best for IAF get 36 fighters in shortest time possible.

CS: Silent for few moments then says ... but I still think Modi is corrupt

Me: Don't worry Modi is not stopping CAG, CVG from cross examining. It will be examined in due time. You, me and party you support have no credentials to examine anything in this. If you can't wait for CAG, go to Supreme court. Good luck !!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 27 Sep 2018 02:53

I really think a detail map of offsets and money that is distributed across the spectrum will be really helpful. When I used to talk to people about this two months ago significant number thought that Rafale is being built by Reliance. I asked all of them where are the pictures of assembly line ? Most had no clue. Amazing at the level of ignorance and how easily you can fool people ...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Sep 2018 09:37

Katare wrote:
Total offset Liability from Rafale deal is Rs 28k core
Dassault’s share of the liability is Rs 14k corer
DRDL’s share from this deal is Rs 6k corerHow? Source?
Anil’s 51% comes to Rs 3k corer or few hundred million euros. Exactly what Tavleen said. Thiese are facts from the deal itself not who said what and how it was reported.
Facts should be verifiable, if in the public domain. The 21K crore number is a revenue forecast for the ADAG group. I am even willing to accept that some of this forecast is not due to the Rafale deal alone. Can go further and rationally accept that some of this number is not due to offsets at all but other business in aerospace that ADAG hopes to garner. But the fact remains that ADAG as a group is the largest offset beneficiary from the Rafale deal. I have discounted the number for ADAG from the Rafale deal to be about 50% of the offsets and not the 70% based on the 21K number. Your 3K number seems to be based on some % of what Anil's share in a single JV is going to be. That is not the question here on what goes into Anil's pocket from a particular venture.

Irony on one side to claim no focus on the private MIC and on the other side the GoI claim of no role. An MIC does not come from unmanaged policy, it is a deliberate action steered and led by the government, at least that is what the Parikkar led DPP had envisaged. I so wish, that this was the case here of a deliberate steer but all we are getting from GoI is the pretense of a hands-off approach. In fact, the design intent of offsets was primarily to get technology and production for defense goods in India. This is a good thing if managed well and the objectives achieved.

I am afraid it is not DDM but you, in this case, confusing ownership in a venture with forecasted revenue to a group due to policy choices. As for Tavleen, she is a political journalist and not someone steeped into foreign or defense policy, as she herself claims, surprised you would get her tweets into the mix as a source. Open to change my mind based on facts.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Sep 2018 14:23

Rakesh wrote:People 'misinformed' about offset aspect of Rafale deal: Air Force deputy chief
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... TOIDesktop

When asked about the charges by the opposition over offset contract under the deal to buy 36 fighter jets, he said, "I believe people are misinformed. It is nothing like Rs 30,000 crore to one party. Dassault alone has to only do offset to the tune of Rs 6,500 crore. Nothing more than that."

rakesh sir, my request regarding taking these scam posts in a separate thread might have got lost in rants and counterrants. May i request you to please respond or should i blow the IEDs of reporting posts on the threat.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitv » 27 Sep 2018 16:58

ShauryaT wrote:
Katare wrote:
Total offset Liability from Rafale deal is Rs 28k core
Dassault’s share of the liability is Rs 14k corer
DRDL’s share from this deal is Rs 6k corerHow? Source?
Anil’s 51% comes to Rs 3k corer or few hundred million euros. Exactly what Tavleen said. Thiese are facts from the deal itself not who said what and how it was reported.
Facts should be verifiable, if in the public domain. The 21K crore number is a revenue forecast for the ADAG group. I am even willing to accept that some of this forecast is not due to the Rafale deal alone. Can go further and rationally accept that some of this number is not due to offsets at all but other business in aerospace that ADAG hopes to garner. But the fact remains that ADAG as a group is the largest offset beneficiary from the Rafale deal. I have discounted the number for ADAG from the Rafale deal to be about 50% of the offsets and not the 70% based on the 21K number. Your 3K number seems to be based on some % of what Anil's share in a single JV is going to be. That is not the question here on what goes into Anil's pocket from a particular venture.

Irony on one side to claim no focus on the private MIC and on the other side the GoI claim of no role. An MIC does not come from unmanaged policy, it is a deliberate action steered and led by the government, at least that is what the Parikkar led DPP had envisaged. I so wish, that this was the case here of a deliberate steer but all we are getting from GoI is the pretense of a hands-off approach. In fact, the design intent of offsets was primarily to get technology and production for defense goods in India. This is a good thing if managed well and the objectives achieved.

I am afraid it is not DDM but you, in this case, confusing ownership in a venture with forecasted revenue to a group due to policy choices. As for Tavleen, she is a political journalist and not someone steeped into foreign or defense policy, as she herself claims, surprised you would get her tweets into the mix as a source. Open to change my mind based on facts.


Facts in public domain are -
1. Dassault has made an investment of 100 Million Euro in DRAL - Rs. 850 Cr https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/gr ... augurated/
2. Reliance has another JVs with Thales - Thales investment in the JV not known
3. Reliance doesnt have any JVs with either MBDA and Safran.
4. Total offset obligations for Dassault and Thales is 21,500 Cr as per this link - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 732240.ece incidentally this is the only link I could find which talks about Reliance getting 21000 Cr offset contracts
5. So Reliance can have 21000 Cr offset contract only when entire Thales and Dassault's obligations are discharged through Reliance - Not verifiable at the moment.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitv » 27 Sep 2018 17:00

Kashi wrote:
jpremnath wrote:The UPA Reliance was mota bhai's company..they withdrew later. The one which entered the fray during the 2015 negotiations was chota bhai's firm.


Didn't Mota bhai sell his company to Chhota bhai and was re-branded as such?


Incorrect. Mota Bhai's company is still active. Chhota Bhai company was incorporated in 2015

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitv » 27 Sep 2018 17:09

Let me also add that apart from Reliance, Dassault is also negotiating with several other companies to meet its 15000 Cr offset obligations.

Code: Select all

3. Other partnerships have been signed with other companies such as BTSL, DEFSYS, Kinetic, Mahindra, Maini, SAMTEL,… Other negotiations are ongoing with a hundred-odd other potential partners.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/gr ... act-india/

So Reliance Defense is not the exclusive partner of Dassault and from available public info Dassault has invested only Rs. 850 Cr in its JV with Reliance.

Code: Select all

The Joint Venture also represents a unequalled Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Dassault Aviation of over 100 Million Euros, the largest such Defence FDI in one location in India.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/gr ... augurated/

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitv » 27 Sep 2018 17:11

Prasad wrote:The 21k crores comes direct from DRAL. Lookup the press release they put out, and its on Dassault's site too. Its a 'prospective' figure. Nothing is inked. There is no concrete figure that I could find anywhere on the net that puts a figure on the offsets obligation amount that Dassault is doing with the DRAL jv. Besides, iirc offsets submission & approval still has time. So it is up to the government to accept/reject I think.


Can you please share the link where DRAL says that they are getting 21000 Cr offset contract?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitv » 27 Sep 2018 17:14

ShauryaT wrote: But the fact remains that ADAG as a group is the largest offset beneficiary from the Rafale deal.



How have you come to this conclusion? News reports also mention that DRDO alone would get 9000 Cr offset through ToT. The confirmed offset for ADAG group is only 850 Cr from Dassault and some unknown amount from Thales .

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Sep 2018 17:39

ArjunPandit wrote:rakesh sir, my request regarding taking these scam posts in a separate thread might have got lost in rants and counterrants. May i request you to please respond or should i blow the IEDs of reporting posts on the threat.

Let us make a pact. How about you stop calling me Sir :) and from my end, I will stop posting these scams?

I cannot control what the others do, because this is a relevant discussion to them. I am not sure how open my fellow mods are to the idea of a separate Rafale scam thread.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Hari Nair » 27 Sep 2018 17:44

Shaurya T and the others doubters who are quoting figures that appear bizarre - Please watch DCAS's interview - link given below. Unlike our RM, he speaks clearly and explains all the aspects of the acquisition:-
https://www.republicworld.com/india-new ... f-reliance

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 27 Sep 2018 17:48

Lets for a moment "assume" that ADAG is "largest offset beneficiary from the Rafale deal".

How does it matter? If not ADAG someone else would be. That by itself cannot be an issue because most certainly one party will get the largest share even if it by the largest by Rs.1.

1)) All that the opposition seems to have is "Ambani was favored by GOI over others including HAL". That is the only question. To support their contention there are a whole lot of hawa-baazi and one statements by the previous French president that he later contradicted. So the current score of that question as it stands now is as follows.

1. The previous French president has contradicted himself and ended with "Dassault *alone" can comment" or " “only Dassault can comment on this” depending on the translation.
2. Current French government denies the allegation.
3. Dassault denies the allegation.
4. GOI denies denies the allegation.

The above are the facts as of now. Each one can decide for himself/herself what weight to give to which statement.

2)) The other valid question is Did GOI/BJP/Modi favor the current configuration for the offsets, obviously by placing ADAG right in the middle [again, still an assumption for the purpose of argument only], for any monetary benefit or benefit in kinds to BJP/Modi.

For this 2nd question no data has been provided or even hinted by folks who are asking for data. This is the key question.

IF there is no hint of corruption, it really does not matter who cornered the largest chunk of the offsets. For this project it may well be ADAG but for some other projects it was L&T and in yet another case it was the TATA. That by itself is of ZERO concern to me till corruption is not involved. This share business is a total non issue.

This question started with allegation of "massive corruption" but morphed into "Why ADAG?" Classic case of changing goal post.

The world is backwards I tell you.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Sep 2018 18:21

I think it's best to stop visiting this forum for free days

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 27 Sep 2018 20:11

ShauryaT, hope you got the information you were looking for....

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 27 Sep 2018 20:32

So many pages of discussion. I expected at lease the BRFites wont fall for Congi propaganda. Alas..!! Do we still wonder why dimwit Gandi can still dream of becoming PM..?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 28 Sep 2018 00:03

Until Hollande made his infamous statement which appears to be an attempt at distancing himself from some moolah going towards his moll's film by the R co., the only item of dispute was whether the GOI had paid a higher price for the deal in comparison with that of the UPA ( but never fully negotiated or sealed). H has now tied himself in knots and has actually turned the spotlight onto himself. The GOI should now simply close the chapter and let MOD spokesmen counter anything in the future , looking forward to further sealing deals crucially required.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 28 Sep 2018 01:17

This news would generally be OT for this thread but relevant given the current focus on ADAG's grabbing a large chunk of the Rafale offsets witgout having any prior aerospace experience has caused indigestion to some folks.

It is exactly in these times when personal bias is on display when one thinks they can push a certain narrative hiding behind some high sounding principles. Take this ZERO experience of ADAG group in Aerospace field. While ADAG has zero experience the offset will be executed by a JV between ADAG and Dassault. Dassault is sufficiently experienced in this field therefore the JV is sufficiently experienced! Still folks manage to concoct theories around Zero experience of ADAG.

When that story did not fly folks moved on to why did ADAG group get such a large share. The only 2 things that should matter is competence and no corruption. Competence of the JV is beyond doubt as noted above. Does any one expect the OEM not to deliver its own baby when in the JV with ADAG! Seriously??

The offset share should not even be a question. If I was a decision maker I wouldn't care who got what till the deliverables expected out of the offsets are met.

The only question that is left is one of corruption. And folks who are asking other for data in support of their position haven't even provided data on corruption themselves. All they have done is point at ADAG and shout corruption.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 124124.cms
Reliance Defence inks Pact with US Navy to repair warships [Jul 11, 2018]
BENGALURU: Reliance Defence has announced an agreement with the US Navy for repairs and servicing of warships at the Pipavav shipyard in Gujarat. The agreement will see warships from the US Navy's Seventh Fleet visiting the Indian facility for complex repair and alteration works.

“Reliance Infrastructure (R-Infra) controlled Reliance Defence and Engineering (RDEL) has signed master ship repair agreement (MSRA) with the US Navy. In January this year, Reliance Shipyard was qualified by the US Navy as an approved contractor to perform complex repair and alternation services for its Seventh Fleet vessels operating in the region,” a press release by the company stated.

Sources said that the business expectations of the Indian company is in excess of Rs 15,000 crore in revenue over the next five years. The Indian shipyard is likely to handle various types of ships — front line warships, supply vessels and patrol vessels — that are part of the Seventh Fleet.

At present the US Navy uses yards in Singapore and Japan for these works. The company expects major work after the signing of the logistics exchange memorandum of agreement (LEMOA) in August last year that enables either side to use facilities for refuelling and replenishment.

Reliance Shipyard says it is the first in the country to receive MSRA certification to undertake servicing and repairing works for the vessels of Seventh Fleet. “Reliance Shipyard has been selected after a detailed site survey by the US government representatives in end October 2016,” the company statement said.

Now consider

1. ADAG has ZERO *Industrial experience* before it bought the Pipavav shipyard.
2. I am pretty sure Anil Ambani does NOT have any Naval tech related degree/qualification/experience. How come the US Navy ignored such a biggly BIG lacunae in the CV of ADAG group?
3. ADAG supposedly has *bad financials*
4. How come ADAG group grabbed a contract that might net it up to 15,000 cr from the US Navy? How did it manage to corner 100% of the work that is likely to be executed from India? Now let me try and spin a bleddy mudi theory around this.

IF this news is true, how does one explain it winning such a deal! It must be that bleddy Mudi who must have lobbied with the US 7th fleet / USG to get ADAG this contract. Why why .... It must be a quid pro quo for that cursed LEMOA deal. Where are the famous duo of piddi & pappu when you need them?

All one has to do is sprinkle a bit of bias on top of a fairly straight forward story make it out as a conspiracy.

Added Later: Multiple edits for clarity


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitv » 28 Sep 2018 08:25

pankajs wrote:This news would generally be OT for this thread but relevant given the current focus on ADAG's grabbing a large chunk of the Rafale offsets witgout having any prior aerospace experience has caused indigestion to some folks.


ADAG doesnt have a large chunk of Rafale offset. Confirmed offset associated with ADAG is only 100 million Euro coming from Dassault. Additionally, Thales also have JV with ADAG, but their investment is not known. That's the whole Offset story for the ADAG.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 28 Sep 2018 11:37

I get that though I am not sure of the final share of ADAG in the total offsets.

My simple point is that a deal worth Rs 1 won because of corruption involving Modi is not acceptable. OTOH, a deal worth 100% of the offset for ADAG won fair and square without any political interference/direction is perfectly fine.

Just the quantum of ADAG's share in the offset cannot be the measure or proof of corruption as is being presented here by folks who should know better. This kind of logic only make it sound political.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kashi » 28 Sep 2018 11:43

pankajs wrote:This kind of logic only make it sound political.


Because it is.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 28 Sep 2018 13:33


It is Dassault which is making it, not Reliance (who are just holding the screw drivers).. and nothing like quartz radome or anything to do here.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 28 Sep 2018 14:13

What a nice article on Rafale... IAF & GOI have done a great job here. Please read details here.

Hats off to Prasun. CSRam and other twitter guys feel free to spread this one.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/201 ... s.html?m=1

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nits » 28 Sep 2018 15:26

Though all this is political but i think Cong has some baseless sensational stuff with them which they will reveal once LS elections are near; else they would not have started making all this noise from now considering janta has very short memory and ppl will forget about it by the time elections come...

They will keep on dropping such stuff till elections and that needs to be countered

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 28 Sep 2018 15:30

^^
You forget the up coming Assembly elections where Congress believes it has a chance. If it succeeds in these elections it will most certainly scale it up for the 2019 GE.

It almost fits the pattern of hysteria created by congress and its allies in the media just before every election. This time the hysteria started a bit earlier that is all.

But this is all political talk. Not for this thread.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 29 Sep 2018 12:19

rohitv wrote:ADAG doesnt have a large chunk of Rafale offset. Confirmed offset associated with ADAG is only 100 million Euro coming from Dassault. Additionally, Thales also have JV with ADAG, but their investment is not known. That's the whole Offset story for the ADAG.

Nope. €100 million (Rs 840 crore) is what they're investing upfront in the 300 acre DAAP facility. The actual revenue generated will inevitably be far higher.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 29 Sep 2018 12:52

See the video of the discussion of yet another spin by the opposition



TIMES NOW Verified account @TimesNow
Sep 27


Another self-goal by Congress. Congress cites 2016 letter by MoD Babu. But babu refutes the allegation.

@Srinjoy_C and @navikakumar speak on #CongRafaleSelfGoal


https://twitter.com/i/status/1045331126347161600

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 29 Sep 2018 14:02

pankajs wrote:This news would generally be OT for this thread but relevant given the current focus on ADAG's grabbing a large chunk of the Rafale offsets witgout having any prior aerospace experience has caused indigestion to some folks.

It is exactly in these times when personal bias is on display when one thinks they can push a certain narrative hiding behind some high sounding principles. Take this ZERO experience of ADAG group in Aerospace field. While ADAG has zero experience the offset will be executed by a JV between ADAG and Dassault. Dassault is sufficiently experienced in this field therefore the JV is sufficiently experienced! Still folks manage to concoct theories around Zero experience of ADAG.

When that story did not fly folks moved on to why did ADAG group get such a large share. The only 2 things that should matter is competence and no corruption. Competence of the JV is beyond doubt as noted above. Does any one expect the OEM not to deliver its own baby when in the JV with ADAG! Seriously??

It isn't personal bias, its angst at seeing TASL screwed over for Anil Ambani, effectively putting an end to the Strategic Partner model that was so crucial to build a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs.

ADAG's zero experience is a fact not a theory. And the problem with the JV has never been that it will not deliver parts/components on time. The real problem has always been about how far those offsets would go in terms of generating genuine local capability, which is where the experience (or lack of it in ADAG's case) comes in.

Dassault may only have a 49% stake in DRAL but make no mistake, it is the partner in control, and is very much in a position to cook the books ensuring that the actual quantum of offsets is much lower than on paper. A venture in which they could have found no better partner than ADAG.

ADAG is struggling under a colossal debt-load, with its entire future as a significant business entity in doubt. Rather than creating long term core competencies, its primary concern is bolstering its dwindling cash flow to keep up with its debt payments. Sooner or later RAL will be up on the selling block. It is no condition to emerge as a pvt sector counterpart to HAL. The only thing ADAG has in common with Dassault is that neither of them have any long term interest in the health of the Indian defence industry.

In contrast, the list of companies TASL has a partnership with includes Boeing, Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky, Airbus, Raytheon, IAI, Textron-Bell, RUAG, Terma, Pilatus as well as the likes of HAL & DRDO. But even if, for whatever reason, TASL wasn't in play, the obvious alternative as Dassault's primary partner would have Mahindra (which works with Airbus & BAE among others). Or even L&T. ADAG makes no sense unless you're specifically looking for a partner with its particular qualities.

Now consider

1. ADAG has ZERO *Industrial experience* before it bought the Pipavav shipyard.
2. I am pretty sure Anil Ambani does NOT have any Naval tech related degree/qualification/experience. How come the US Navy ignored such a biggly BIG lacunae in the CV of ADAG group?
3. ADAG supposedly has *bad financials*
4. How come ADAG group grabbed a contract that might net it up to 15,000 cr from the US Navy? How did it manage to corner 100% of the work that is likely to be executed from India? Now let me try and spin a bleddy mudi theory around this.

The US Navy/DoD has NOT signed any contracts with Pipavav/REDL. Its merely registered them on its list of approved contractors.

The actual assessment of REDL's capabilities/limitations will be done in, if it tries to bid for a specific contract (each of which have their own specific eligibility clauses). A registered contractor eligible to bid for basic maintenance tasks (say over a week), may not be eligible to carry out a refit of a major warship over several months.

The Rs 15,000 crore business expectation is precisely that, an expectation. Its doesn't bind the US Navy into providing commensurate business to the shipyard. And if and when REDL puts in for a support contract, the assessment will almost certainly include a requirement to prove its financial stability.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 29 Sep 2018 14:45

Katare wrote:ShauryaT, the link posted by you confirms the numbers I posted earlier. If you pay attention to ddm english and desperate reporting you can see what they are saying. Again people will believe what they want to believe.

Total offset Liability from Rafale deal is Rs 28k core
Dassault’s share of the liability is Rs 14k corer
DRDL’s share from this deal is Rs 6k corer
Anil’s 51% comes to Rs 3k corer or few hundred million euros. Exactly what Tavleen said. Thiese are facts from the deal itself not who said what and how it was reported.

I think we're mixing up two different things - local business and ToT.

Rafale deal face value: €7.87 billion.
50% offset value: €3.94 billion

The 50% offsets were to be split in two forms: 30% by value in the form of ToT, 20% by value through local business.

20% contract value to domestic industry: €1.57 billion.

That's a total of about ₹13,000 crore to be invested in and (export) generated via the domestic industry.

Dassault as the primary contractor is managing the entire program but its direct share is reportedly about 50% of that.

Which comes to roughly ₹6,500 crore. Almost all of which is likely to be generated via DAAL where RDAL has invested in ₹750 crore capex to set up a manufacturing facility.

Still the deal does provide a good startup boost to Reliance in aerospace business which could be worth billions of dollars in the future. Unfortunately the teality of private MIC in India is really pathetic, no ones made or making any money so far except for Small sums by MSMEs or subcontractors. This ( and dealing with govt and corruption allegations) is the reason mota bhai backed off.

Trouble is, if one were committed to boosting the pvt sector as alternative to our DPSUs, the very worst thing that could have happened was for an entirely new player to walk off with a contract worth thousands of crores within weeks of its inception.

Any company in a technical field evolves through the so-called Crawl-Walk-Run stages. We already have at least one private company that is at the 'Walk' stage. What is the opportunity cost paid by the taxpayer in terms of introducing another crawler into what is already a very fragmented industry?

France, for example, has one 'national champion' in every segment. Dassault (military aviation), Airbus (commercial & rotorcraft), Naval Group (naval), Thales (electronics), Safran (propulsion), Nexter (ground systems). How many private sector players can the Indian defence industry accommodate, in addition to our DPSUs?
Last edited by Viv S on 29 Sep 2018 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 29 Sep 2018 14:48

Viv S wrote:
pankajs wrote:This news would generally be OT for this thread but relevant given the current focus on ADAG's grabbing a large chunk of the Rafale offsets witgout having any prior aerospace experience has caused indigestion to some folks.

It is exactly in these times when personal bias is on display when one thinks they can push a certain narrative hiding behind some high sounding principles. Take this ZERO experience of ADAG group in Aerospace field. While ADAG has zero experience the offset will be executed by a JV between ADAG and Dassault. Dassault is sufficiently experienced in this field therefore the JV is sufficiently experienced! Still folks manage to concoct theories around Zero experience of ADAG.

When that story did not fly folks moved on to why did ADAG group get such a large share. The only 2 things that should matter is competence and no corruption. Competence of the JV is beyond doubt as noted above. Does any one expect the OEM not to deliver its own baby when in the JV with ADAG! Seriously??

It isn't personal bias, its angst at seeing TASL screwed over for Anil Ambani, effectively putting an end to the Strategic Partner model that was so crucial to build a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs.

ADAG's zero experience is a fact not a theory. And the problem with the JV has never been that it will not deliver parts/components on time. The real problem has always been about how far those offsets would go in terms of generating genuine local capability, which is where the experience (or lack of it in ADAG's case) comes in.

Dassault may only have a 49% stake in DRAL but make no mistake, it is the partner in control, and is very much in a position to cook the books ensuring that the actual quantum of offsets is much lower than on paper. A venture in which they could have found no better partner than ADAG.

ADAG is struggling under a colossal debt-load, with its entire future as a significant business entity in doubt. Rather than creating long term core competencies, its primary concern is bolstering its dwindling cash flow to keep up with its debt payments. Sooner or later RAL will be up on the selling block. It is no condition to emerge as a pvt sector counterpart to HAL. The only thing ADAG has in common with Dassault is that neither of them have any long term interest in the health of the Indian defence industry.

In contrast, the list of companies TASL has a partnership with includes Boeing, Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky, Airbus, Raytheon, IAI, Textron-Bell, RUAG, Terma, Pilatus as well as the likes of HAL & DRDO. But even if, for whatever reason, TASL wasn't in play, the obvious alternative as Dassault's primary partner would have Mahindra (which works with Airbus & BAE among others). Or even L&T. ADAG makes no sense unless you're specifically looking for a partner with its particular qualities.

Now consider

1. ADAG has ZERO *Industrial experience* before it bought the Pipavav shipyard.
2. I am pretty sure Anil Ambani does NOT have any Naval tech related degree/qualification/experience. How come the US Navy ignored such a biggly BIG lacunae in the CV of ADAG group?
3. ADAG supposedly has *bad financials*
4. How come ADAG group grabbed a contract that might net it up to 15,000 cr from the US Navy? How did it manage to corner 100% of the work that is likely to be executed from India? Now let me try and spin a bleddy mudi theory around this.

The US Navy/DoD has NOT signed any contracts with Pipavav/REDL. Its merely registered them on its list of approved contractors.

The actual assessment of REDL's capabilities/limitations will be done in, if it tries to bid for a specific contract (each of which have their own specific eligibility clauses). A registered contractor eligible to bid for basic maintenance tasks (say over a week), may not be eligible to carry out a refit of a major warship over several months.

The Rs 15,000 crore business expectation is precisely that, an expectation. Its doesn't bind the US Navy into providing commensurate business to the shipyard. And if and when REDL puts in for a support contract, the assessment will almost certainly include a requirement to prove its financial stability.

Lets start with one point highlighted above.
You line "ADAG's zero experience is a fact not a theory"
My line " While ADAG has zero experience"

Can you point where I stated/implied that "ADAG's zero experience was a theory" as implied by that statement of yours? As far as I am concerned "ADAG has zero experience" is as unambiguous as I know how to write.

Once we are clear on this point I will comment on the rest of the post.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 29 Sep 2018 15:09

pankajs wrote:Lets start with one point highlighted above.
You line "ADAG's zero experience is a fact not a theory"
My line " While ADAG has zero experience"

Can you point where I stated/implied that "ADAG's zero experience was a theory" as implied by that statement of yours? As far as I am concerned "ADAG has zero experience" is as unambiguous as I know how to write.

Once we are clear on this point I will comment on the rest of the post.

Sure. Sounds like nitpicking to me but yes we're clear on the point.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 29 Sep 2018 15:44

Lets move on to the next item ...

Viv S wrote:It isn't personal bias, its angst at seeing TASL screwed over for Anil Ambani, effectively putting an end to the Strategic Partner model that was so crucial to build a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs.

ADAG's zero experience is a fact not a theory. And the problem with the JV has never been that it will not deliver parts/components on time. The real problem has always been about how far those offsets would go in terms of generating genuine local capability, which is where the experience (or lack of it in ADAG's case) comes in.

Dassault may only have a 49% stake in DRAL but make no mistake, it is the partner in control, and is very much in a position to cook the books ensuring that the actual quantum of offsets is much lower than on paper. A venture in which they could have found no better partner than ADAG.

Let me summarize the highlight as I understand it. Correct me if my summary is wrong.
Dassault ... is very much in a position to cook the books ensuring that the actual quantum of offsets is much lower than on paper. A venture in which they could have found no better partner than ADAG ... effectively putting an end to the Strategic Partner model that was so crucial to build a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs.

Firstly, 30% TOT related offsets will be cross verified by the GOI. Every agreement is subject to GOI clearance. I picked this 30% TOT number from one of you previous post. Hardly any scope to get away without investing in the facilities, tools and personal that would be markers in the process of getting the TOTs. Here the assumption is that GOI's intent is clear and that verification/validation will be rigorous.

Secondly. 20% in terms of deliverable would be itemized, quantified and valued in the current agreement. How else can one arrive at the life cycle cost that is an input to the overall agreement and would be a crucial component of the performance garuntee agreed to by the OEM. Also, in my view, you can't "cook the book" on lifecycle maintenance that the JV has to execute and performance up-time that the JV will have to ensure. You will need to supply real good to take care of real life issues.

Now we come to the last bit about using "Strategic Partner model" to foster "a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs". If this opportunity was to be wasted it would indeed be tragic.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 279852.cms
Foundation stone of Rs 6,500 cr Dassault-Reliance aerospace facility laid in Nagpur SEZ [Jul 13, 2018]
“We will start manufacturing parts of the Rafale in Mihan. The 36 aircraft will not be assembled here. If we have new orders then we will make the entire aircraft here,” said Trappier, adding that new orders for Rafales could be the Indian Navy’s requirement of 57 multi-borne carrier fighter aircraft.

Anil Ambani added, “All future needs of the Rafale jets, whether its for the navy or Indian Air Force, will be under the Make in India initiative in Mihan. We are best positioned to serve the double engine fighter jet market and we have full technology transfer from France.”

He also said that there is a tie-up with the IAF for entire performance based logistics of the 36 Rafales at Mihan.

DRAL will also manufacture components for the Legacy Falcon 2000 Series of civil Jets manufactured by Dassault Aviation. This will ensure that it becomes part of its global supply chain.

“Production will start by 2018,” said Anil Ambani, adding that over 500 small and medium scale enterprises will be involved in the offsets and exports of of the 36 Rafales contract.

A fly buy night operator [my words] intent solely on milking the present contract, as your post seems to suggest, ADAG sure seems to be investing quite a lot more when all it had to do was "cook the books". Now that Rs 6,500 cr investment won't be just for the offset portion but for the overall build planned by ADAG for which it has acquired about 300 acres land.

Plus this talk of involving ~500 MSME will is about creating a new aerospace ecosystem around Nagpur. The initial investment and the vendor development plan should go a long way "in terms of generating genuine local capability" and create "a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs".

If indeed ADAG want's to scale up and fulfill "All future needs of the Rafale jets" from its facility, it is in its interest to get full TOT and make most of the opportunity of running a AeroDefense Quality manufacturing facility alongside Dassault under this 36 offset deal.

Another news item that quotes the same investment number for ADAG.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 590430.ece
Will be the largest greenfield project in South-East Asia: Anil Ambani
The Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group has said it will invest ₹6,500 crore in building a mammoth greenfield aerospace equipment manufacturing centre in Nagpur.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 29 Sep 2018 17:09

pankajs wrote:Let me summarize the highlight as I understand it. Correct me if my summary is wrong.

Firstly, 30% TOT related offsets will be cross verified by the GOI. Every agreement is subject to GOI clearance. I picked this 30% TOT number from one of you previous post. Hardly any scope to get away without investing in the facilities, tools and personal that would be markers in the process of getting the TOTs. Here the assumption is that GOI's intent is clear and that verification/validation will be rigorous.

Secondly. 20% in terms of deliverable would be itemized, quantified and valued in the current agreement. How else can one arrive at the life cycle cost that is an input to the overall agreement and would be a crucial component of the performance garuntee agreed to by the OEM. Also, in my view, you can't "cook the book" on lifecycle maintenance that the JV has to execute and performance up-time that the JV will have to ensure. You will need to supply real good to take care of real life issues.

To the first part, how the the exact nature and valuation of the ToT was not determined during the original negotiations but deferred to a later date. Time will tell what comes of that. Regardless, it doesn't really concern ADAG since its being transferred to R&D bodies like DRDO.

Regarding the manufacturing component, it has absolutely nothing to do with the life-cycle cost of the aircraft. RDAL doesn't have to supply spare parts to the IAF, it just has to show business worth a certain amount to meet Dassault's offset obligation. Its not all that difficult a challenge if you have a willing partner.

For example, at the moment, RDAL is producing components for the Falcon jets, which will be dispatched to the assembly line in Merignac. The valuation for those components will be done by Dassault and no doubt dutifully signed off by RDAL. They simply need to show that the required offset value as being discharged between Sept 2019 and Sept 2023. Dispatch them, overvalue them within 'accounts receivable' and then at a future date write off Dassault's liability against marked up input costs (for materials shipped in from France).

This is just a crude example. No doubt their accountants and lawyers have access to far more sophisticated tools for round-tripping money. And unlike the PSUs, the CAG is not in a position to carry out a forensic audit of RAL or Dassault's accounts.

Now we come to the last bit about using "Strategic Partner model" to foster "a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs". If this where to be true it would indeed be a serious matter.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 279852.cms
Foundation stone of Rs 6,500 cr Dassault-Reliance aerospace facility laid in Nagpur SEZ

Umm.. no, sorry. The SP model (and here I'm talking about the Dhirendra Singh committee & Atre panel) was never about a foreign OEM partnering with any Indian pvt of its choice. The 'partnership' referred to was between a public sector and pvt sector and pertained to the Buy-and-Make category.

Six critical segments were identified wherein one pvt player was to be the industrial strategic partner (which the govt, after intense corporate lobbying, watered down to two players). The main idea was that a fragmented industry would never allow the economies of scale required to create a 'national champion' from the private sector.

The 'broad parameters' recommended by the Atre Panel for selecting the strategic partner for the industry were:

1. Financial Capability: Annual turnover, Profitability, Net worth, Risk Appetite, Appropriate ratio of program size to annual revenues
2. Financial Prudence. Credit ratings, quality of disclosures, No CDR status
3. Technical Capability. Domain specific capabilities, organisational processes, outside domain large programme capability, Global reach/network
4. R&D Capability Track record in development of technologies and products, R&D investments over past five years, R&D accreditations
5. Capacity/Infrastructure – quality of infrastructure w.r.t. global benchmarks
6. Executive Track Record – Delivery Track Record
7. Ownership Structure – Public/Private, Family/Professional, Promoter-driven/widely-held

With complete novice like RAL walking in and then walking off with a massive chunk of business (while TASL & Mahindra just look on), the SP model lies in tatters, with the industry more fragmented than ever, at least in the aerospace sector.

The only thing needed to complete the whole $h#! show is for Saab-Adani to get their pound of flesh.

Plus this talk of involving ~500 MSME will is about creating a new aerospace ecosystem around Nagpur. The initial investment and the vendor development plan should go a long way "in terms of generating genuine local capability" and create "a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs".

Big if. Either way, TASL is pretty much f###ed. Two decades of conscientious work and capacity building, and a two week old Ambani company walks with the lion share of the spoils from India's most valuable defence deal.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 29 Sep 2018 18:32

Viv S wrote:For example, at the moment, RDAL is producing components for the Falcon jets, which will be dispatched to the assembly line in Merignac. The valuation for those components will be done by Dassault and no doubt dutifully signed off by RDAL. They simply need to show that the required offset value as being discharged between Sept 2019 and Sept 2023. Dispatch them, overvalue them within 'accounts receivable' and then at a future date write off Dassault's liability against marked up input costs (for materials shipped in from France).

This is just a crude example. No doubt their accountants and lawyers have access to far more sophisticated tools for round-tripping money. And unlike the PSUs, the CAG is not in a position to carry out a forensic audit of RAL or Dassault's accounts.

Now we come to the last bit about using "Strategic Partner model" to foster "a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs". If this where to be true it would indeed be a serious matter.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 279852.cms
Foundation stone of Rs 6,500 cr Dassault-Reliance aerospace facility laid in Nagpur SEZ

Umm.. no, sorry. The SP model (and here I'm talking about the Dhirendra Singh committee & Atre panel) was never about a foreign OEM partnering with any Indian pvt of its choice. The 'partnership' referred to was between a public sector and pvt sector and pertained to the Buy-and-Make category.

Six critical segments were identified wherein one pvt player was to be the industrial strategic partner (which the govt, after intense corporate lobbying, watered down to two players). The main idea was that a fragmented industry would never allow the economies of scale required to create a 'national champion' from the private sector.

The 'broad parameters' recommended by the Atre Panel for selecting the strategic partner for the industry were:

1. Financial Capability: Annual turnover, Profitability, Net worth, Risk Appetite, Appropriate ratio of program size to annual revenues
2. Financial Prudence. Credit ratings, quality of disclosures, No CDR status
3. Technical Capability. Domain specific capabilities, organisational processes, outside domain large programme capability, Global reach/network
4. R&D Capability Track record in development of technologies and products, R&D investments over past five years, R&D accreditations
5. Capacity/Infrastructure – quality of infrastructure w.r.t. global benchmarks
6. Executive Track Record – Delivery Track Record
7. Ownership Structure – Public/Private, Family/Professional, Promoter-driven/widely-held

With complete novice like RAL walking in and then walking off with a massive chunk of business (while TASL & Mahindra just look on), the SP model lies in tatters, with the industry more fragmented than ever, at least in the aerospace sector.

The only thing needed to complete the whole $h#! show is for Saab-Adani to get their pound of flesh.

Plus this talk of involving ~500 MSME will is about creating a new aerospace ecosystem around Nagpur. The initial investment and the vendor development plan should go a long way "in terms of generating genuine local capability" and create "a pvt sector alternative to DPSUs".

Big if. Either way, TASL is pretty much f###ed. Two decades of conscientious work and capacity building, and a two week old Ambani company walks with the lion share of the spoils from India's most valuable defence deal.

I did not realize that you were referring to a specific "strategic partnership model" as conceived by "Dhirendra Singh committee & Atre panel" while I was focused on strategic partnership model objectives as conceived in the Defence Offset guideline.

In the present case, Defence Offset Policy is what is applicable. Lets dive in ....There may be a more updated one but this is the one that I got on the first hit.

https://mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/ ... elines.pdf
1. Objective of Defence Offsets
1.1 The key objective of the Defence Offset Policy is to leverage capital acquisitions to develop Indian defence industry by (i) fostering development of internationally competitive enterprises, (ii) augmenting capacity for Research, Design and Development related to defence products and services and (iii) encouraging development of synergistic sectors like civil aerospace, and internal security.
Further,
https://mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/ ... elines.pdf
3: Avenues for Discharge of Offset Obligations
(a) Direct purchase of, or executing export orders for, eligible products manufactured by, or services provided by Indian enterprises ....
(b) Foreign Direct Investment in joint ventures with Indian enterprises (equity investment) for the manufacture and/or maintenance of eligible products and provision of eligible services ...
(c) Investment in ‘kind’ in terms of transfer of technology (TOT) to Indian enterprises for the manufacture and/or maintenance of eligible products and provision of eligible services. This could be through joint ventures or through the non-equity route for co-production, co-development and production or licensed production of eligible products and eligible services ....
There are other clause which folks can read but clause (b) and (c) are sufficient for our discussion related to the JV between Dassault and ADAG.

Clearly, the OEM is allowed Invest in a JV with an Indian enterprise for manufacture and/or maintenance of eligible products or services. Is is also allowed to invest in 'kind' in terms of TOT to Indian enterprises.

That Dassault-ADAG JV fits the bill as conceived by the Defence Offset guideline and in my view is a "strategic" enough "partnership" between an OEM and its Indian partner with joint manufacturing for offset purposes to begin with. It also has ambitions to scale up to make the Rafale fully from this facility in future if it get orders beyond the initial 36 crafts. It also aims at creating a local eco-system around this facility.

Further, from the same Defence Offset guideline.
4. Indian Offset Partner
4.3 The OEM/vendor/Tier-I sub-vendor will be free to select the Indian offset partner for implementing the offset obligation provided the IOP has not been barred from doing business by the Ministry of Defence.
OEM is allowed to choose its own offset partners. Till now the whole thing seems to be within the parameters defined by the policy. On that count at least there should be no cause for concern.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cove ... 2018-09-28
Rs 30,000 crore offset pie will be carved up between Dassault, Safran and Thales, with Dassault getting 40 per cent and Safran and Thales 30 per cent each (see How the Rs 30,000 cr Offsets Will Be Spent). The DRAL JV could account for between 15 and 17 per cent of Dassault's share of the offset pie or roughly between Rs 1,260 and Rs 1,428 crore.

<snip>

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which potentially stands to gain the most from the Rafale offsets. Dassault officials say nearly 30 per cent of the Rafale offsets have been set aside for the DRDO. This could even go up to 50 per cent.

1. DRDO's share of the offset is 30+% may go up to 50%. Seems like the TOT portion of the offset will fully be absorbed by DRDO.
2. Dassault's share of the offset pie from DRAL JV is between Rs 1,260 and Rs 1,428 crore and given that this is a 49:51 Dassault:ADAG JV , the number for ADAG would be similar, no where near massive!
3. ADAG and Dassault are individually investing about Rs. 750 cr or so each for the current phase.


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