VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2019 11:35

How Rafale beat competing jets and remained IAF’s choice until Modi signed deal in 2015
The CAG report tabled in Parliament recently tells us that the Indian Air Force wanted the Rafale fighter jets from day one. In fact, it wanted a jet from Dassault Aviation.

But the question is: Why?

Let us go back to the Kargil war in 1999. The Dassault Mirage 2000 aircraft proved its capabilities and impressed the Air Force very much. In August 2000, the Air Force proposed the acquisition of 126 upgraded Mirage 2000 jets. This was shot down by the defence ministry as the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 1992 did not allow for a single-vendor purchase. The Air Force re-submitted its proposal in December 2001, saying it should be treated as a repeat purchase.

However, the insistence of the government to not get into a single-vendor deal led to a request for information (RFI) being issued for the acquisition of 126 medium-range combat aircraft. It largely consisted of single-engine jets: Dassault Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2, Lockheed Martin F-16, Mikoyan MiG-29, and Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Only the MiG-29 had twin engines.

But once Dassault closed the Mirage production and insisted on fielding only the Rafale, the acquisition was expanded to what became the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft or the MMRCA. This also got Boeing F-18 and the Eurofighter Typhoon into the competition. Russia changed its offering to the MiG-35.

Also read: India favoured Rafale also because of its ‘nuclear advantage’

The Request for Proposal (RFP) was issued to all these contenders in August 2007, with a demanding Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR), which led to most of the contending jets not satisfying it, warranting certain India-specific enhancements.

This was a drastic change from the IAF’s own argument as reported by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in March 2001 while re-submitting its proposal for Mirage 2000, in which the IAF had argued that “while other available options such as Rafale, Eurofighter, F-35, etc., were technologically superior to Mirage 2000, the excess combat capability of these aircraft would remain underutilised as Air Force requirement was a comparatively modest aircraft for shorter range missions.”

Although the IAF ran flight trials, none of the contenders were completely in compliance with its ASQR. The CAG report states: “In the Technical Evaluation conducted in May 2008, five of the six aircraft could not meet all the ASQR parameters. Four aircraft had one to two deviations. Rafale aircraft could not meet 9 ASQR parameters prescribed in the RFP.” On three separate occasions in 2009, the Rafale was rejected, but it managed to remain in the hunt in complete violation of the Defence Procurement Procedure.

Four aircraft were eliminated after the flight trials — the F-18, F-16, MiG-35 and the Gripen — because they did not meet the ASQR parameters of “growth potential” and “design maturity”. The CAG says: “There was no objective, verifiable or measurable criteria prescribed for evaluation of these parameters.”

However, the Rafale, which did not satisfy 14 parameters, made it to the IAF’s down select along with the Eurofighter. It is apparent that the IAF did not want certain jets. It didn’t want the American jets as it argued that “it could face difficulties in case sanctions were imposed by (the) USA”.

Also read: Buying complex weaponry is no easy business, but Rafale shows India’s process is broken

The IAF has since bought aircraft and helicopters from the US — the C-130, C-17, Apache and Chinook. The Indian Navy bought P8 aircraft. The Russian MiG-35 was not in the game at all as the IAF didn’t want Russian jets, which are notorious for high maintenance and operational costs — one of the reasons why lifecycle cost was the criteria in the RFP, as Russian jets are cheaper in direct acquisition costs but costlier in the long run.

A comparison can be taken from the CAG report on heavy lift helicopter acquisition. Total Life Cycle cost quoted by Boeing for Chinook helicopters was $1.47 billion and that by Rosoboronexport for Mi-26 was $8.40 billion. Direct acquisition cost was $1.20 billion and €1.06 billion, respectively.

The CAG report says that Dassault was non-compliant in ASQR, RFP and in violation of the DPP. It did not give complete information, and the columns it had left blank were filled by the Indian committee looking into lowest bidder (L1) under various assumptions.

Dassault Aviation was declared L1 and Eurofighter, which had provided all the details, was found to be L2! It was only during negotiations that it became apparent that the costs were going way beyond the quote, and the Dassault was no longer L1.
[b]

According to the CAG report, a team of defence ministry officials had submitted a report in March 2015, saying that Dassault’s bid should have been rejected at the technical evaluation stage. It said, “The acceptance of additional commercial proposal after bid submission date for capabilities, which were already prescribed in the RFP, was unprecedented and against the canons of financial propriety.”[/b]

Yet, just days later on April 10, 2015, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced a deal for 36 Rafale. Was the PM not aware of the defence ministry’s report? Or did he go ahead regardless hoping for a better deal? CAG report does not indicate a better deal. It is Dassault that laughed all the way to the bank.

Various reasons are attributed to why the IAF wanted the Rafale — comfort with Dassault, Indo-France strategic ties, procuring weapons from France that are seen as sanctions proof and also a nuclear weapons delivery role.

This raises questions on the gaps that exists in understanding the needs and reasons of the IAF and the armed forces in general for certain weapons systems with the civilian leadership. If the IAF wanted only the Mirage and later the Rafale, then why wasn’t a government to government deal done earlier? DPP-2006 allows for an inter-governmental agreement.

If an IGA had been done in 2007, the Rafale jets would have been a lot cheaper and the Air Force would have already had the 126 jets it requires. In fact, the total requirement is 200-250 Rafale kind of jets. There was no need to have a sham tender that made a mockery of procedures and rules, because this has sent a very wrong message to weapons’ manufacturers across the world.

India is going to run what is dubbed MMRCA 2.0. It has got responses from the same contenders as MMRCA 1.0. The CAG report will be read by foreign suppliers. They will see how the MRCA tender played out. A competing vendor told noted defence journalist Saurabh Joshi, “If you’re permitting cheating, at least have the decency to not make the rest of us work so hard.” Will they respond to the RFP that’s due to be released?

Yusuf T. Unjhawala is the editor of Defence Forum India and a commentator on defence and strategic affairs. He tweets @YusufDFI

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2019 00:46

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098171579870167040 ---> "There is no scandal with the Rafale. If the Indian Govt wants more than 36 aircraft, we happy to supply. Need a minimum order of 100 to manufacture in India," Dassault CEO Eric Trappier tells Livefist at Aero India 2019.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2019 00:53

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098077808016965633 ----> Rafale aircraft pylons now made in India by Indian firm Defsys Integrated Systems in Gurgaon. Here’s the first one to be delivered shortly + the full list of Indian firms that will contribute to global Rafales.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2019 20:47

Sparring over Rafale cost unwarranted as aircraft pricing depends on multiple factors from features to weapons
https://www.firstpost.com/india/sparrin ... 19551.html

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2019 20:48

No scam in Rafale deal, fighter jets will be delivered to India in two years, says Dassault CEO Eric Trappier
https://www.firstpost.com/india/no-scam ... 25561.html

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 21 Feb 2019 20:57

the percentage of people who said yes are just the hopeful "minorities"


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 07:23

Cross Post from the Tejas Mk1A thread....

Improved, Tejas Mark 1A to fly by 2022, if contracted this year
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/02 ... -2022.html
Friday, 22 February 2019

Capability to build Rafale

Rejecting allegations that HAL was not capable of building the Rafale, Madhavan said HAL might start slowly but, after building 50 Rafales, it would be as fast, or faster than Dassault builds in France.

He explained it was internationally acknowledged that the learning curve for aerospace manufacture has a coefficient of 1.79. In other words, if building a fighter requires 179 man-hours at the start of production, that reduces to 100 man-hours when production stabilizes.

Applied to the Rafale, if building in India requires 2.7 times as many man-hours at the start of production as building in France, that figure would come down to 1.5 times the French figure, once production stabilizes. Then, if production continues, it would match, and then surpass, the French figure.

HAL executives point out that the Hawk trainer began being built at a slow pace, but then matched, and then surpassed, the speed it was built in the UK by BAE Systems.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 07:27

What he of course doesn't mention is that the overall cost was still much higher due to the learning curve differential and Dassault refused to stand guarantee for HAL Manufactured Rafales.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 07:37

Karan M wrote:What he of course doesn't mention is that the overall cost was still much higher due to the learning curve differential and Dassault refused to stand guarantee for HAL Manufactured Rafales.

Yes absolutely Karan. I am sure you have seen this article from Nov 2017....

Rafale Deal: Dassault, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/raf ... s.bI9Iw9Rm

Roemer’s confidential report to the then US administration under President Barack Obama, just before his tenure as ambassador ended in 2011, said in clear terms that the HAL was not competent to be a partner of either of the two American companies – Boeing and Lockheed Martin – that were keen to bid for India’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), purely because it did not meet the quality standards the two US giants sought.

After some French government officials were able to “lay their hands” on Roemer’s report, Dassault executives and specialists sought permission from the Defence Ministry, then under the stewardship of AK Antony of the Congress-led UPA, to visit HAL’s factory in Nashik where the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter jets were being produced at the time.

Once permission was granted, based on Dassault’s study of HAL’s Nashik facility the French government conveyed their displeasure over quality control once it was discovered that there were production-related problems over the manufacture of the SU-30s. Dassault’s conclusion was that the company “could not risk its global reputation” by partnering with the HAL, as the latter’s production facilities in Nashik were “in shambles,” according to top IAF sources.

The IAF sources said that at the time, Antony reacted sharply :lol: and took the stand that the French government could not change its decision on the Rafale aircraft. However, the UPA government had little option in the face of Roemer and Dassault’s “scathing” reports.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 07:40

See these tweets......FWIW....

https://twitter.com/Fault_Analyst/statu ... 6273333250 ---> Worked very closely for 16 years with HAL and will say HAL is the worst air framer in whole world. Product Quality is still of 1942 timeframe. Management have no vision and motive of employees are just coming to factory to have tea, ragi balls, rasam and sambar :lol:

https://twitter.com/SMedia4/status/1051039169898799104 ---> Have worked in squadrons with anger as HAL wouldn't supply basic spares. Quality word is taboo with fuel leak of Kiran aircraft being a folklore. HAL today needs strong bamboo stick competition. Days of laid-back orders, markup profits over.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 07:57

Yeah.. remember that.

To be fair, HAL has understood its issues to a degree and has begun to really focus on QA/QC with programs like the Tejas, ALH etc getting a lot of management oversight & also freedom in picking the best of whatever is available, to fix things.

But they really need to pick up their pace as there is a lot of pent up anger based over past issues (above tweets are a good example) and those guys are now in senior positions in AF, Navy etc and will gladly work with private competitors to put HAL in its place.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 02:45

https://bharatshakti.in/in-the-g2g-cont ... sbp-sinha/

33 MIN video. At 9 mins SBP Sinha states that it was the IAF which asked the Govt to take 1 of 3 options and the 3rd was to take a few aircraft fly-away!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 02:45

HAL comes across as really an empire builder in his interview, overstating costs for its benefit.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 25 Feb 2019 12:23

If HAL QA/QC was that bad how did they build Mig-21/27/Jaguar/MKI /Hawk etc over the years ? These should be dropping out of the skies and what about MRO/Repair/Upgrade for M2K/29/Hawk etc

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2019 12:41

Austin, you misunderstand the concerns for somebody like Dassault. HAL reworks its products if the line manager, test pilot etc make adverse remarks before the aircraft is delivered. So most times, aircraft delivered by HAL is ok ok, only that it took more time than planned & excess manhours went into the plane.

For somebody like Dassault, that has two significant concerns, time and money. Time, because if they don't meet the stated timeline, MOD can penalize them. Money, because if things go wrong at HAL, Dassault will have to depute extra people from France & take charge. Which means it costs more.

Third, there is the unsaid issue that HAL is deeply tied into the Indian defence establishment as is BEL, and none of these foreign vendors want to do TOT to either HAL or BEL and hence find new excuses to avoid doing so. Sometimes legitimate, sometimes fake.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Muns » 03 Mar 2019 14:10

India Missing Rafale Now, Says PM Modi; Rahul Gandhi Retorts ;

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-m ... ts-2001788

on Friday.
"The country is feeling the absence of Rafale. The entire country is saying in one voice today, what all could have happened if we had Rafale. The country has suffered a lot due to selfish interests earlier and now politics over Rafale," he said in his address at the India Today conclave, which was tweeted by the official handle of the Prime Minister's Office.

The Prime Minister's tweet earned him an equally sharp attack from Congress president Rahul Gandhi, who said PM Modi was responsible for the delay in the arrival of Rafale jets.

"Dear PM, have you no shame at all? You stole 30,000 crores and gave it to your friend Anil (Ambani). YOU are solely responsible for the delay in the arrival of the Rafale jets. YOU are WHY brave IAF pilots like Wing Cdr. Abhinandan, are risking their lives flying outdated jets," Mr Gandhi tweeted.


Another reason why these kind of articles irritate me no end. Modi is right. I do feel that sending 12 Mirage 2000 H was a lot risky but thankfully managed without any mishaps, during our strike to Balakot. As a counter I did write the article below a couple of days ago regarding the efficiency of Rafale and the Spectra EW warfare system with active radar cancellation that might've effectively protected the strike package to a much greater degree.

From what I can understand the Netra , was too far south of this time to offer any kind of assistance, When it comes to EW jamming. It was really a fact that the mirages were flying low level to avoid radar detection. Can any of the gurus's offer any assistance into what they believe was any electronic warfare with regard to the strike towards Balakot? Is the Tempest EW system mountable on the Mirage?? Tried to do a search but could not really pull up much information regarding this.

Counter article written by me as below.

Rahul Gandhi’s Rafale ‘Mirage’

https://www.india-aware.com/opinion/rah ... le-mirage/

The Rafale itself has many advantages and improvements based upon the long serving history of the Mirage itself. This is especially true in the area of electronic warfare especially Suppression of enemy air defenses(SEAD) while heading such strike package into Pakistan. Its SPECTRA electronic warfare system allows for much higher survivability and success of such missions. The IAF concocted a brilliant plan with regard to a complete confusing air space before launching the 12 Mirage into Pakistan. However with the limited EW suite of the Mirage, in truth it seems that this was really a high-risk mission.

With the Rafale, such as strike package survivability would only have been enhanced in view of the electronic warfare systems that the Rafael possesses and the interoperability regarding data links between the Rafael and the Mirage.

The Rafale itself has taken the best of the Mirage even with the upgrades and taken the next step with even greater low observability, electronic warfare systems as well as higher survivability with two engines.


The Congress government might do well to introspect not only on their past regarding the Bofors Scam but also with the ongoing revelations regarding Christian Michel in the Augusta Westland helicopter scam, involving his family again.

Could it be that he has his own agenda in blacklisting Dassault for a rival competitor? It seems that his family has really profited from such cases as before.

One can only hope that with the return of Abhinandan Varthaman and his courage in shooting down F-16 in close range from a decades-old Mig 21 Bison we can learn a few lessons. Our Armed Forces are in desperate need of aircraft that they can trust to do the missions that they now have the license to go and do.

We must stand and say, the concocted stories of Rahul on the Rafale are indeed a Mirage!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_P » 03 Mar 2019 14:38

^ They also serve, who sit and write.

Keep up the good work sir

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 14:53

Karan M wrote:Austin, you misunderstand the concerns for somebody like Dassault. HAL reworks its products if the line manager, test pilot etc make adverse remarks before the aircraft is delivered. So most times, aircraft delivered by HAL is ok ok, only that it took more time than planned & excess manhours went into the plane.

For somebody like Dassault, that has two significant concerns, time and money. Time, because if they don't meet the stated timeline, MOD can penalize them. Money, because if things go wrong at HAL, Dassault will have to depute extra people from France & take charge. Which means it costs more.

Third, there is the unsaid issue that HAL is deeply tied into the Indian defence establishment as is BEL, and none of these foreign vendors want to do TOT to either HAL or BEL and hence find new excuses to avoid doing so. Sometimes legitimate, sometimes fake.


HAL is an engineer led and engineer run company, and this situation is sometimes good and sometimes bad.

The pilots have little say in what happens.

Adverse remarks by pilots are not the norm.

In hindsight, I would say that this situation is mostly bad.

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VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Peregrine » 04 Mar 2019 04:09

Did Michel make UPA-2 put Rafale deal on ice? Agencies set to probe - Pradeep Thakur

NEW DELHI: The possible role of key Agusta Westland middleman Christian Michel in the "go slow" on the Rafale deal during UPA-2 is likely to be investigated by the enforcement agencies given the UK national's prominence in defence circles after his reported success in influencing the VVIP chopper contract.

The line of investigation, a well placed source said, whether Michel was part of intense corporate lobbying over the fighter deal and if he had a role in events leading to the Manmohan Singh government putting the Rafale acquisition into a virtual freeze around 2012 once differences arose over issues like warranty and production of the jet under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

There seemed to be a lack of energy in the government even though Rafale was declared ‘L1’ (lowest bidder) in January 2012. Negotiations with Dassault Aviation were in an advanced stage with regard to certain issues which turned into intractable differences. The deal languished thereafter.

The source said Michel's reputation as a man who managed things soared after the Rs 3,600 crore Agusta Westland deal for the supply of 12 VVIP choppers to India went through. By 2010, he had become an established middleman in the defence aviation sector with “deep inroads” into the Indian decision-making system. He was allegedly approached to pitch in for the Eurofighter Typhoon, the competitor to Rafale.

Agencies have recovered some evidence that indicate a sudden interest on Michel’s part with regard to Eurofighter’s prospects. The Enforcement Directorate, which had earlier questioned Michel for two weeks in the Agusta Westland case, is probing money trails in another suspected defence payoff.

In the Agusta Westland deal, Michel is accused of allegedly receiving over Rs 200 crore in bribes, part of which he is believed to have shared with his Indian contacts.

The UPA government, which had started negotiations with Dassault Aviation in 2007, had almost reached a deal to acquire 18 Rafale jets in flyaway condition and 108 for licence production at HAL. There was an “unsolicited offer of 20% discount” by the Eurofighter consortium on its previous offer while letters were written to then defence minister A K Antony alleging irregularities in the Rafale acquisition.

Michel is currently in judicial custody in Tihar. He was arrested by the CBI soon after his deportation from Dubai on December 5 last year. During his custodial interrogation with the ED, he is believed to have expressed his desire to make a “full disclosure” of facts concerning him with regard to the payoff allegations, sources said.

Some officials interpret Michel’s move as his attempt to explore the possibility of becoming an approver, similar to what another accused in the case, Rajiv Saxena, has done recently.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby bkswarti » 04 Mar 2019 08:48

Can we just buy more rafales please instead of going back and forth with the politics jeez.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 04 Mar 2019 10:22

chetak wrote:HAL is an engineer led and engineer run company, and this situation is sometimes good and sometimes bad.

The pilots have little say in what happens.

Adverse remarks by pilots are not the norm.

In hindsight, I would say that this situation is mostly bad.


Well I am aware of pilots who were cajoled by the staff not to enter any adverse remark. The plane would be taken back, reworked, brought up to proper spec, re-released for flight eval. Some HAL TPs had real strong moral fiber and took a stand as necessary. Of course, the staff would likely make some extra coin by showing over time!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 04 Mar 2019 13:00

twitter

UPA began negotiating for #Rafale in 2007, stalled deal in 2012 as #Michel pushed for Eurofighter kickbacks. Indian squadrons fell to <35, forcing new govt in 2015 to buy 36 flyaway Rafales with request for information (RFI) for 90 more. Which “chor” weakened #IAF for a decade?


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 04 Mar 2019 13:02

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:HAL is an engineer led and engineer run company, and this situation is sometimes good and sometimes bad.

The pilots have little say in what happens.

Adverse remarks by pilots are not the norm.

In hindsight, I would say that this situation is mostly bad.


Well I am aware of pilots who were cajoled by the staff not to enter any adverse remark. The plane would be taken back, reworked, brought up to proper spec, re-released for flight eval. Some HAL TPs had real strong moral fiber and took a stand as necessary. Of course, the staff would likely make some extra coin by showing over time!


Karan ji,

moral fiber in a PSU??

try survival, since that is the most basic and fundamental of human needs.

cajoled instructed.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby VKumar » 05 Mar 2019 03:04

Should buy one squadron of Rafale every year for next 5 years.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2019 04:10

To what end? Are there better means of spending $20 billion dollars? And I don't mean roti, kapda makaan.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Mar 2019 04:19

IAF Chief BS Dhanoa says Rafale jets to be inducted by September: Know all about the omni-role fighter aircraft
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-04

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivasvat » 05 Mar 2019 05:52


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2019 05:59

chetak wrote:Karan ji,
moral fiber in a PSU??
try survival, since that is the most basic and fundamental of human needs.
cajoled instructed.


Sirji, many people working in DPSUs to public sector to private sector do have a very strong moral code.

They may not brag about it, or even display it all the time, but when the occasion demands, they rise up to the occasion.

HAL Test Pilots are all ex-services. As you are well aware, they are keenly aware of and very conscious of their responsibilities towards their course mates, their friends, and their juniors back in the IAF, IA, IN who will fly these machines.

Second, They are also backed up by ppl in management who understand their concerns but have to deal with trouble makers in the workforce who seek to use any incident to push their agenda. Workarounds are sought that keep the peace, and save face, jobs etc but get the core issue resolved.

In this case, the pilots and other senior personnel intervene and get things fixed but without it getting on the offending personnel's record and hence causing union trouble etc.

Not all can pull this off in say HAL, but many do and that is the truth in most functions, whom you know, & how you do it, often counts for more than the "that's what's written down". That's the unfortunate reality of dealing with a unionized workforce with heavy political backing.

Not heard the same level of concerns at BEL or ECIL and have heard much much worse at OFB. That's a whole different level than HAL.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Mar 2019 12:37

We should have a rule against blanket assertions.
Summary ban..

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 05 Mar 2019 13:33

Karan M wrote:That's all I have to say on the matter.


fair enough.

let us agree to disagree.

JayS
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 05 Mar 2019 15:05

ks_sachin wrote:We should have a rule against blanket assertions.
Summary ban..


+100. Blanket assertions show simple minded analysis (no offense meant to anyone). At least BRFites who are always ahead of the curve, are expected to be more nuanced in the analysis. Without that there is no point.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2019 07:37

Another example of the great service being done by the Rahul Gandhi-led Congress Party!

Image

Bart S
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Bart S » 06 Mar 2019 07:49

Wonder which nation’s interest he had in mind.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 06 Mar 2019 14:33

Rakesh wrote:Another example of the great service being done by the Rahul Gandhi-led Congress Party!

Image


ok, that's interesting; even a school kid knows the shortage of fighter planes in IAF inventory and an increasingly hostile 2 front situation; how does HE propose to deal with that :shock: its almost treason !!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ashthor » 06 Mar 2019 14:50

economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/govt-urges-supreme-court-to-throw-out-rafale-review/articleshow/68284430.cms

The central government urged the Supreme Court on Wednesday to throw out review petitions filed in the Rafale case only on the ground that it was based on "documents stolen" from the Ministry of Defence.

"These where stolen from the Ministry of Defence. An enquiry is on," Attorney General K.K. Venugopal told a three-judge bench led by Chief Justice of India Ranjan Gogoi.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 06 Mar 2019 16:54

Rakesh wrote:See these tweets......FWIW....

https://twitter.com/Fault_Analyst/statu ... 6273333250 ---> [color=#FF0000]Worked very closely for 16 years with HAL and will say HAL is the worst air framer in whole world. Product Quality is still of 1942 timeframe. Management have no vision and motive of employees are just coming to factory to have tea, ragi balls, rasam and sambar :lol:[/color]

https://twitter.com/SMedia4/status/1051039169898799104 ---> Have worked in squadrons with anger as HAL wouldn't supply basic spares. Quality word is taboo with fuel leak of Kiran aircraft being a folklore. HAL today needs strong bamboo stick competition. Days of laid-back orders, markup profits over.


very interesting indeed.

Rakesh ji, this is not a criticism but merely an observation.

A forum moderator can quote third party tweets about PSU culture quality issues.

Another moderator takes issue with posters for posting on these same matters.

What about someone who has personally dealt with these PSUs for more than 25 years, as a customer?? Are they expected to keep quiet after being ripped off regularly??

We were pointedly told twice by "senior management", "where will you go?? we are the only source and you simply pay what is asked".

We quickly found non PSU sources for our requirements in both cases and in time we replaced more than thirty five odd items for which they had said "we are the only source and you simply pay what is asked".

At one stage, replacement aircraft manuals were being charged at Rs 350/= per page because that was apparently the amortized cost of their xerox facilities.

BTW, they had already recovered the total cost of their xerox facilities many many years ago.

If only xerox copies were being supplied by these PSUs, couldn't we have xeroxed on our own for a mere fraction of the cost??

Everything WAS CHARGED AT COST PLUS 10%.

That guy is needlessly dragging in the rasam and sambar, they were usually very good.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 06 Mar 2019 22:10

Chetak ji,

It is equally easy to find two tweets in the opposite sentiment than what you just produced. And then write a long comment contrary to what you wrote.

But that would be foolhardy. Just saying.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby vijayk » 07 Mar 2019 00:58

Not sure how many people are following review petition in SC on Rafale.

Looks like AG instead of going into any merits of the case simply argued against the case because documents were stolen. So the SC is going to decide on Mar 14 about the merits of the case.

Lot of RW folks were unhappy that they did not put the case away and even admitting the case can be used by ITALIAN chor to claim victory.

Why is the SC directly taking these cases?
Why do they keep admitting reviews even after giving judgement?
once?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 07 Mar 2019 01:01

First post on this page says Mirage 2000 performance in Kargil spurred the IAF to buy more.

Dassault came back and said the M2K line is shutting down and no can do but we have Rafale.

The original idea was to get replacement for the 50 odd M2Ks.

Someone added the phased out MiG-21 to the mix and increased the quantity to 126 MMRCA in 2000 itself.

That's where the gotala started with increased numbers.
The replacement for the Mig-21 is not the Rafale/MMRCA.

The 20+20+ 83 Tejas and the 200 odd Tejas MWF are to replace the MiG fleet. Total 123+200 i.e. 323 Tejas.
To put in perspective, India bought ~ 550 French jets since the first Dassault Oruguan fighter in 1953.
Essentially India was the third leg for the French aircraft industry : French Air Force, India, & Gulf countries.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 07 Mar 2019 01:03

vijayk, That would get political.
lets not go there.


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