VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 05 Sep 2019 09:13

Cain Marko wrote:Does anyone know for sure how many rafales the Egyptians are getting. It seems they have two orders of 36 each plus mig 35s. How are they affording this...


24 Rafales. All most likely paid for by the Saudis. And it’s easy to spend billions on weapons when a dictator is in power.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Sep 2019 11:09

Plus I think Egyptians gave up an Island to the Saudis and the Egyptian Rafales are F3 Standard, not sure if they have AESA radars.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Chinmay » 05 Sep 2019 18:27

Kartik wrote:First ever pics of an IAF Rafale, RB001, in IAF colors. What a beauty! I just wish the old tradition of squadron markings comes back into IAF practice.

Pics credit: Cedric Guerre. Posted on FB

What a pretty bird!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JTull » 05 Sep 2019 18:47

What does RB stand for?


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 03:37

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/11 ... 0690733057 ---> Indian Air Force Station Hasimara is located strategically near the India-Bhutan border, Chumbi Valley and Doklam. Housing the dreaded MiG-27 and awaiting the Rafale the base gets a facelift in 2019 implying the Tigersharks are ready to take on the Dragon's encroachment.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 03:40

One can see significant construction at Ambala and Hasimara....

Google Maps view of Hasimara AFS ---> https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Hasima ... 89.3686204

Google Maps view of Ambala AFS ---> https://www.google.ca/maps/place/30%C2% ... 76.8177778

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby vishvak » 06 Sep 2019 11:11

Chinmay wrote:
Kartik wrote:First ever pics of an IAF Rafale, RB001, in IAF colors. What a beauty! I just wish the old tradition of squadron markings comes back into IAF practice.

Pics credit: Cedric Guerre. Posted on FB

What a pretty bird!

Doesn't it look a little, or lot like naval Tejas? Except much more advanced in every way though.

If Tejas amca has stealth features and benefits from iaf Rafale ( by comparison to Rafale, example sensors) then what more proof of efforts is needed for success of indigenous tech development (exact or similar) and also rigorous inspection and standards required for amca that selected Rafale after much research (600 test points or so).

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sarathy » 06 Sep 2019 16:04


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 09 Sep 2019 12:52

Any reason why F-22 lost out to Rafale in this BFM ? Was this discussed here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOswfrc7Xtg

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Sep 2019 13:27

One reason could be since its WVR combat the Rafale can use full maneuverability of the MICA, will the F-22 the Aim 9M/9X has to pushed out before it can start maneuvering.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2019 23:09

Now this is something new. In all my time of following squadron raisings, I have never seen this. No 17 Golden Arrows Squadron to be raised on Tuesday, September 10th without a single Rafale in the IAF inventory. The first four Rafales are to formally join the IAF only later in the month at an event in France to be attended by Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh and Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa. And these four birds will only arrive in India by May 2020. But the IAF is so looking forward to this bird, that the squadron is already being raised (or in this case, re-raised).

Just shows the pride of place the Rafale has in the IAF.

IAF's 17 Squadron to be resurrected on Tuesday; to be first Rafale unit
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/iaf ... 69287.html

• The IAF spent around ₹400 crore to develop required infrastructure like shelters, hangers and maintenance facilities at the two bases.

• IAF Chief B S Dhanoa will resurrect the 17 squadron at an event on Tuesday at the Ambala Air Force Station.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 10 Sep 2019 00:34

The reason for that I suppose is that those jets will be handed over by Dassault to the IAF this September, but without a squadron in which to accept them, which squadron takes over the role of dealing with the 4 jets that will be handed over and be in France?

Plus, as we found out during No.45 Squadron's re-raising, a lot of activities are required to be done to re-raise a number plated squadron. A lot of administrative work, getting pilots, engineers, maintainers, etc. from other squadrons, basing for families..by the time those Rafale jets arrive in Ambala, the squadron will pretty much be up and running.

At least with No.45, the re-raising of the squadron was done on Indian soil. One cannot expect the IAF to conduct those kinds of ceremonies in France, can we? And in the past, from what I recall, existing operational squadrons converted to a new type. This is a case where a number plated squadron is being handed over a brand new type in service. Apart from No.45 Squadron with the Tejas Mk1, the only other time I can recall that has happened is with the Su-30MKI and No.20 "Lightnings" squadron which was re-raised in 2002 after being number plated in 1998. The first Su-30MKIs were delivered to Lohegaon and No.20 "Lightnings" was re-raised in that event in Pune (I still recall pics of that event on BRF) mostly staffed with No.24 Squadron officers.

Otherwise with all other types, an operational squadron handed over its jets to another squadron and took new types into service. Su-30K/MK was delivered to No.24 "Hunting Hawks", Mirages were with the No.1 "Tigers", MiG-29s with No.47 "Black Archers", Jaguars with No.14 "Bulls"..all of them were operational I believe.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Sep 2019 22:04

And No 17 Golden Arrows Squadron has now been raised.

The first batch of four Rafales will be handed over on Oct 08, 2019 - on the occasion of the IAF's 87th anniversary.

IAF resurrects 17 Squadron ‘Golden Arrows’ for Rafale
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 384434.ece

The first batch of Rafale jets are scheduled to be formally handed over to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on October 8 in France, officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity. The jets are set to arrive in India in May 2020.


Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Sep 2019 22:05

IAF's Golden Arrows: 1st Rafale unit has flown US, British, Russian aircraft
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... craft.html

The Golden Arrows Squadron was commanded by current ACM Dhanoa during the Kargil war.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 10 Sep 2019 23:07

Austin wrote:Any reason why F-22 lost out to Rafale in this BFM ? Was this discussed here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOswfrc7Xtg


BFM exercises are never set out as duels to judge who is the better pilot or which aircraft is superior. They are usually playing out set scenarios with blue and red forces generally simulating a situation or a threat type. Unless you have context in terms of ROEs or the complete picture in terms of what they were doing it is as pointless as aggressor T-38s getting the F-22 in their sight in BFM videos and photos of which also exist in the wild . I believe there is even a story out there or an A-10 getting a F-22 kill somewhere..will have to dig it up..

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 11 Sep 2019 00:04

Seen a picture of that A10 I think, with F22 in its kill list painted on fuselage.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2019 01:03

https://twitter.com/indiatubedesk/statu ... 1652629508 ---> Here is the New patch for the resurrected No.17 'Golden Arrows' Squadron of the IAF, which will be the first of the Rafale squadron.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 11 Sep 2019 03:39

hot damn! I want that!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_P » 11 Sep 2019 11:05

JayS wrote:Seen a picture of that A10 I think, with F22 in its kill list painted on fuselage.


An F22 and an F16.. and 2 tanks

A-10 with F-22 and F-16 kill marks

They paint all sorts. Like this one..

Image

All those are training 'simulated' kills. The real deal is the green star

The awesome reason some Air Force fighters have green stars

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Sep 2019 03:17

As per Ajai Shukla, the second Rafale squadron to be raised is No 101 Squadron, Falcons.

IAF Chief “resurrects” his former squadron to receive the Rafale
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/09/ ... ormer.html

The IAF also plans to resurrect another former MiG-21 squadron, 101 Squadron or the “Falcons”, which too was “number-plated” (removed from the active list, and its identity mothballed for future use) some years ago when its MiGs become too old to fly. 101 Squadron, the second Rafale squadron, will be based in Hashimara to operate on the Sino-Indian front.


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 12 Sep 2019 05:01

I was just wondering yesterday about which squadron would be the second to receive Rafale jets. Good to know that it will be No.101 'Falcons' that'll be the next Rafale squadron. It's a highly decorated squadron from 1971, having decimated Paki armor formations over Chhamb.

link

The Squadron graduated to supersonic era with SU-7 ac in Junr 1968. It was the 1971 war, which brought laurels to the Squadron. The Squadron became the most highly decorated Squadron in the IAF to date winning one MVC, eight Vr Cs, six M-in-Ds, 14 commendations, one AVSM, two VMs and two VSMs.

The history of the Falcons would remain incomplete without a special mention of their role in the Chhamb sector during the 1971 conflict. Seventy five percent of the sorties were flown in this sector, neutralising enemy armour, gun positions and troop concentrations. In the years that followed the conflict, the Squadron has other examples of its outstanding capabilities and professional competence. It won the WAC Forward Air Controllers competition in 1972 and WAC Flight Safety Trophy in 1973. In July 1974 the war-weary Sukhoi-7 ac was replaced by MiG-21M (Type-96) aircraft.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 12 Sep 2019 06:16

JayS wrote:Seen a picture of that A10 I think, with F22 in its kill list painted on fuselage.


There is a story and background somewhere as well. I’ll try to dig it up..

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 12 Sep 2019 15:29

Rakesh wrote:As per Ajai Shukla, the second Rafale squadron to be raised is No 101 Squadron, Falcons.

IAF Chief “resurrects” his former squadron to receive the Rafale
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/09/ ... ormer.html


Chief is so naughty and partial !! :wink: :wink:
Bringing his fav Mig-21s squadron back into life.
Come on what about some of the 23 or 27 squadrons.
LOL

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Sep 2019 19:24

I know :)

Chiefs (and everyone under them) have affinity for their squadron, regiment, ship. So when a new piece of hardware is being inducted...the Chief will get first dibs on which unit is to be raised.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2019 22:12

I think Ajai Shukla is implying bias where it does not exist.
And we are falling for it.

Even AVM Arjun Subramanian (R) said that.
101 Squadron has exemplary service record.

Second why don't they use the word revived instead of resurrected?
The formation was dormant/number plated not dead.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 23:44

Sowing discord between units. If 200 raffies are really coming, that is 10 other units that will get plated. What's the big deal?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sankum » 13 Sep 2019 00:01

Rest assured., Rafale will be inducted @ 12/year in 2022-35 time period resulting in capex of $2b/ year and LCA @ 24/year resulting in further capex of $2b / year for a total capex of $4b/year for 36 fighter / year induction into IAF.
Indian growing economy can easily afford it. IAF will be 45 sq by 2035.
2035 onward it will be AMCA.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby tsarkar » 13 Sep 2019 00:09

The Chief wanted to resurrect the squadron before he retired, hence a squadron without planes, that NOT the norm.

Revive means bringing to life something that exists.

A number plated squadron has no personnel nor equipment assigned to it, so its actually dead and requires resurrection.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2019 00:52

tsarkar wrote:The Chief wanted to resurrect the squadron before he retired, hence a squadron without planes, that NOT the norm.

Revive means bringing to life something that exists.

A number plated squadron has no personnel nor equipment assigned to it, so its actually dead and requires resurrection.


I know this will hit a raw nerve but what I want to see re-resurrected are the large number of battalions that were demobilized after 1857 be brought back.

I have the list in a book.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Atmavik » 13 Sep 2019 09:39

ramana wrote:I think Ajai Shukla is implying bias where it does not exist.
And we are falling for it.


agree. here is a rebuttal

@Chopsyturvey
Follow Follow @Chopsyturvey
MoreAviator Anil Chopra Retweeted Ajai Shukla

17 Squadron, Golden Arrows is an accomplished unit. Was the frontline unit based in Srinagar during Kargil war. A well deserved honour. Shouldn't attach motives to everything in life


https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 7121537024

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 13 Sep 2019 14:35

Oh my God guys. Me and Rakesh were just having a lighter moment.
Chill out all you Sherlocks LOL.

Its the chiefs prerogative and besides the chief and his IAF belong to the nation. It's does not matter but an Indian take the fight to Sargodha.

Now let's please resume the lighter side.

My next take
Chief is naughty he personally took an interest in Abhinandan's return to flying because he and Abhi both love their 21s.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 13 Sep 2019 14:35

And let Ajai do what he does. IDC

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitvats » 13 Sep 2019 19:44

Khalsa wrote:Chief is so naughty and partial !! :wink: :wink:
Bringing his fav Mig-21s squadron back into life.
Come on what about some of the 23 or 27 squadrons.
LOL


Except 02 Mig-27UPG squadrons, all converted to other types!

Consider these (from what I remember) -

(1) 223 Squadron (Warlords): Mig23MF --> Mig-29UPG (this squadron was raised in 1982 with Mig-23MF and by early 90s, had converted to Mig-29!)
(2) 224 Squadron (Warlords): Mig23MF -->Jaguar DARIN II
(3) 221 Squadron (Valiants): Mig-23BN --> Su-30MKI
(4) 220 Squadron (Desert Tigers): Mig-23BN ---> Su-30MKI
(5) 9 Squadron (Wolfpack): Mig-27 ---> Mirage-2000
(6) 10 Squadron (Winged Daggers): Mig-23BN ---> Mig-27UPG
(7) 18 Squadron (Flying Bullets): Mig-27ML --->Tejas!
(8) 22 Squadron (The Swifts): Mig-27ML ---> Don't know
(9) 222 Squadron (Tigersharks): Mig-27ML ---> Don't know [Rafale???]
Last edited by rohitvats on 13 Sep 2019 21:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2019 19:48

Folks the Rafale follow-on is underway:

Link:
https://www.janes.com/article/91142/tee ... r-dsei19d3


MBDA (Stand S1-200) is showing a range of weapon concepts that could be further developed under the Tempest programme. Some of the concepts applicable to Tempest were aired at the Paris Air Show in June in connection with the Dassault-led Franco-German- Spanish New Generation Fighter project, but additional systems have been unveiled at DSEI.

As a founding member and co-ordinator of effects in Team Tempest, MBDA has been involved in the design process from the start, ensuring that its weapon system development work complements platform development to deliver capability enhancements across the range of future missions.

Some of the proposed Tempest weapons are already in service or active development for current platforms, such as the Meteor long-range air-to air missile and Spear precision-attack missile, of which the electronic warfare derivative is being shown for the first time.

Among the concepts unveiled in Paris that are again being highlighted for Tempest are two deep strike weapons, one optimised for stealth and the other for high speed.

On show for the first time are concepts for within-visual range air-to-air weapons, based on the current ASRAAM/CAMM family.


The Tempest's planned longer internal bay would allow it to carry a shortened ASRAAM-type weapon in pairs on launchers, or a longer, larger-calibre derivative with greater range.


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Sep 2019 19:58

werent the british after indian money for tempest?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2019 20:05

I dont know its not germane to this topic of a follow on program.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Sep 2019 00:07

The AFs reliance on Rafale especially makes sense against the PRC since they have access to the Flanker, the Irbis and associated systems and know exactly how the things work. The PAF may not be able to field large transport sized pods but the PLAAF can and attempt to degrade our Su30 upgrades if we too go for the IrbisE in a standard config. Without taking this into account. This is what is challenging for the S400 too.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 14 Sep 2019 00:28

rohitvats wrote:Except 02 Mig-27UPG squadrons, all converted to other types!

Consider these (from what I remember) -

(1) 223 Squadron (Warlords): Mig23MF --> Mig-29UPG (this squadron was raised in 1982 with Mig-23MF and by early 90s, had converted to Mig-29!)
(2) 224 Squadron (Warlords): Mig23MF -->Jaguar DARIN II
(3) 221 Squadron (Valiants): Mig-23BN --> Su-30MKI
(4) 220 Squadron (Desert Tigers): Mig-23BN ---> Su-30MKI
(5) 9 Squadron (Wolfpack): Mig-27 ---> Mirage-2000
(6) 10 Squadron (Winged Daggers): Mig-23BN ---> Mig-27UPG
(7) 18 Squadron (Flying Bullets): Mig-27ML --->Tejas!
(8) 22 Squadron (The Swifts): Mig-27ML ---> Don't know
(9) 222 Squadron (Tigersharks): Mig-27ML ---> Don't know [Rafale???]

Wow, thank you for the list Rohit. Couple of changes though - No.223 Squadron is named Tridents not Warlords. And No.22 squadron was numberplated in 2018.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 14 Sep 2019 03:37

There are more squadrons that have been numberplated as well or will be numberplated soon.

No.108 Squadron - 'Hawkeyes': MiG-21M ---> Not yet known
No. 22 Squadron - 'Swifts' - MiG-27ML ----> Not yet known

And No.35 Squadron - 'Rapiers' flying MiG-21M will be retired soon.

2 IAF MiG squadrons close down

In December 2017, the Indian Air Force (IAF) announced final flights for No 108 Squadron ‘Hawkeyes’ and No 22 Squadron ‘Swifts,’ in advance of their ‘numberplating’ at the end of the fiscal year (March 31, 2018).

No 22 Squadron, based at Hashimara in the eastern state of West Bengal, was the last unit flying non-upgraded Hindustan Aeronautics Limited-built MiG-27ML strike aircraft. Raised in October 1966 as a Folland/HAL Gnat unit at Bareilly in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, the squadron took part in the 1971 liberation of Bangladesh, being awarded Battle Honours for its role in the conflict. The squadron was re-equipped with the HAL Ajeet, a local modification of the Gnat, in 1982. In 1990, No 22 Squadron moved to Hashimara and converted to the MiG-27 (with MiG-23UB trainers).

With retirement of the MiG-27ML and numberplating of No 22 Squadron, the IAF is now down to two squadrons of domestically upgraded MiG-27UPGs, No 10 Squadron ‘Winged Daggers’ and No 29 ‘Scorpions’.

No 108 Squadron, based at Nal in the western state of Rajasthan, was one of two remaining MiG-21M units when its disestablishment was announced, the other being No 35 ‘Rapiers’. No 108 Squadron was raised on Vampires in November 1959, taking these to war with Pakistan in 1965. In 1968, the Hawkeyes transitioned to Su-7s, with which they went to war again in 1971. The unit was among the first IAF Squadrons to receive Soviet-built MiG-21MFs in 1973, before converting to HAL-built MiG-21Ms in later years. The ‘Hawkeyes’ went to war for a third time on a third aircraft type in 1999, carrying out day and night strikes with their MiG-21Ms during the Kargil conflict.



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