VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4276
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 14 Sep 2019 14:01

tsarkar wrote:The Chief wanted to resurrect the squadron before he retired, hence a squadron without planes, that NOT the norm.

Revive means bringing to life something that exists.

A number plated squadron has no personnel nor equipment assigned to it, so its actually dead and requires resurrection.


Wasn't Sq 20 the Lightnings similarly resurrected some time before it actually got Su30MKI inducted in it..??

http://mail.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/Aircraft/Current/Fighters/Su30MKI/Su-30w.jpg.html

The Lightnings, steeped in history & gallantry, were resurrected on 20th May 2002 at Lohegaon AFS: seen here is a line up of Flankers at Lohegaon AFS, during their induction on 27 September 2002. The red covers next to the cockpit are to protect the IRST (InfraRed Search & Track) system from the suns rays

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 14 Sep 2019 15:48

rohitvats wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Chief is so naughty and partial !! :wink: :wink:
Bringing his fav Mig-21s squadron back into life.
Come on what about some of the 23 or 27 squadrons.
LOL


Except 02 Mig-27UPG squadrons, all converted to other types!

Consider these (from what I remember) -

(1) 223 Squadron (Warlords): Mig23MF --> Mig-29UPG (this squadron was raised in 1982 with Mig-23MF and by early 90s, had converted to Mig-29!)
(2) 224 Squadron (Warlords): Mig23MF -->Jaguar DARIN II
(3) 221 Squadron (Valiants): Mig-23BN --> Su-30MKI
(4) 220 Squadron (Desert Tigers): Mig-23BN ---> Su-30MKI
(5) 9 Squadron (Wolfpack): Mig-27 ---> Mirage-2000
(6) 10 Squadron (Winged Daggers): Mig-23BN ---> Mig-27UPG
(7) 18 Squadron (Flying Bullets): Mig-27ML --->Tejas!
(8) 22 Squadron (The Swifts): Mig-27ML ---> Don't know
(9) 222 Squadron (Tigersharks): Mig-27ML ---> Don't know [Rafale???]


Thanks Rohit. Brilliantly put together. I would have expected nothing less from an Orbat master such as yourself.
I was really hoping the 221 would have gone the way of Rafael but never mind. I still remember reading an old article about them maintaining and soldiering on their Mig-23s and were perhaps the last Mig-23 squadron (unsure I am right).

Interestingly the Pakistanis are claiming an Su-30 MKI from the 221 squadron as part of their SwiftRetort.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7676
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitvats » 16 Sep 2019 13:43

Thank you for the good word.

In fact, if you look at the entire list of IAF on similar lines (old--->new aircraft), you'll realize how the space for light fighters has shrunk within IAF. Most Su-30MKI squadrons are old Mig-21 squadrons.

So, Tejas replacement for Mig-21 argument is long gone!

Tejas stands on its own legs which support a superlative set of capabilities.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11138
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Sep 2019 13:56

Sir may be we can take it to the aircorce thread, but I think we still need light fighters with lower opex, quicker reaction times and possibly lower RCS as the first line of defense.

Quite frankly the needs of the airforce are dynamic and change with whats available, I am sure if IAF had F-22's and F-25's available they will like them as well. I guess some decisions made by the Government of the day are shown as IAF decisions.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 16 Sep 2019 16:34

rohitvats wrote:Thank you for the good word.

In fact, if you look at the entire list of IAF on similar lines (old--->new aircraft), you'll realize how the space for light fighters has shrunk within IAF. Most Su-30MKI squadrons are old Mig-21 squadrons.

So, Tejas replacement for Mig-21 argument is long gone!

Tejas stands on its own legs which support a superlative set of capabilities.


Indeed Indeed.
And what almost made that happen too easily was a readily working and pumping model at HAL cutting SU cookies faster than my mother.
Another Mig-21 lesson in the making.

Going for the desi small fighters I love our desi stable

    IOC
    FOC
    mk1Navy
    Mk1a
    SPORT trainer
    Mk2 (MWF)
    Navy Mk2.

Out of the above.
I will be following the Navy Mk2 and SPORT trainer with extra affection. Mini revolutions hidden inside those two for those seeking that edge.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Sep 2019 21:45

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1173903284832276481 ---> The MBDA weapons package for the Indian Rafales — including the Meteor, SCALP & MICA will begin delivery & integration in 2020 when the first jets are ferried to India starting May 2020.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Sep 2019 21:46

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1173890016872992773 ---> SCALP by MBDA’s Selles-Saint-Denis facility in central France. SCALP is part of the weapons package on the Indian Rafales, the first of which are entering service next month.

Image

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 18 Sep 2019 20:09

Some interesting tidbits of info from this news piece.

Why Rafale jets may be inducted into IAF by next summer only
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/why ... 80434.html

According to Anil Chopra, a retired Air Marshal, who was one of the pilots to fly the Dassault-made Mirage 2000 jets from France to India in 1985, once the first five or six Rafale jets are officially handed over to the IAF, they will be flown to India by fighter pilots of the IAF trained at Merignac. “Nobody flies in one fighter aircraft, so we will wait for five or six to be handed over, which will happen by April or May, and then these will be flown together, six or seven or eight together to India," Chopra said.

“The first thing to do is to file the flight plan," Chopra said adding this will include at least two refuelling halts — one in Greece or Italy and then in Egypt or Oman before the aircraft land in Jamnagar in Gujarat. In Jamnagar, there are customs procedures to be taken care of before the aircraft can be flown to Ambala air force station where the jet will be formally inducted.

During the flight from Bordeaux to Jamnagar, the pilot will be using a call sign like “India 1" or “India 2" depending on the numbers in the formation. They will identify themselves to the air traffic control of each country whose airspace they cross using these call signs and using radio frequencies assigned to commercial civilian aircraft. The pilots in the fighter jets will also be using the same cruising altitude, i.e 33,000 feet, that is used by commercial aircraft. The formation—in this case up to four aircraft in one group—will be accompanied by a transport aircraft (perhaps a C-17 Globemaster in this case, while in the case of the Mirage 2000, it was an Illyushin IL-76) all through its flight to India. The transport aircraft would be carrying additional pilots, spare engines for the Rafale and other critical spare parts besides flight engineers should something go wrong. The jets would be flying at 0.8 Mach or nearly 1,000 km ( 614 miles) per hour — much slower than its top speed of 1.8 Mach (2,222 km/1,381 miles per hour). Flying at 0.8 Mach has a benefit as there is less consumption of fuel, Chopra said. “And the aircraft will have no weapons loaded obviously."

In recent months, the IAF has initiated a major upgradation of its Ambala air base for the deployment of the Rafale. “Ambala will also have a small number of French technicians and engineers to ensure things are in order in the initial stages. Our men (air force engineers and others for maintenance work) would of course have been trained as well," Chopra said.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4428
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 21 Sep 2019 03:35

IAF receives first Rafale RB001from Dassault Aviation in France

BORDEAUX (France): Moving a step closer towards operating the Rafale combat aircraft, the Indian Air Force on Thursday received the first Rafale combat aircraft at the Dassault Aviation manufacturing facility here.

The first aircraft with tail number RB001 was received by a team of Indian Air Force officers led by Air Marshal VR Chaudhary in France who also flew in the plane for around one hour, Indian Air Force sources told ANI.

As per the Rs 60,000 crore contract signed between India and France, the first aircraft was scheduled to be delivered in acceptance mode to the Indian side and it will now undergo trials and tests for another seven months more in France, sources said.

The tail number RB-01 has been named after Indian Air Force Chief-Designate Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria who had played a very important role in finalising the country's biggest-ever defence deal.

The planes would now officially be inducted on October 8 into the IAF when Defence Minister Rajnath Singh visits France but the planes would start arriving in India only in May 2020 after validation of the India Specific Enhancements and training of pilots and personnel.

The Indian planes have been equipped with a lot of India-specific enhancements, which have been fitted at a cost of around one billion euros.

Though small batches of Indian pilots have already trained on the French Air Force planes, the Indian Air Force would train 24 pilots in three different batches till May 2020 for flying the Indian Rafale fighter jets.

..


and a better article in ToI. Confirms towed decoys are part of ISE. And also that over Rs 34,000 crore have been paid to France already as per the milestone linked installments

link

The 13 India-Specific Enhancements (ISEs) or upgrade on the 36 jets will, however, become fully operational only by September -October 2022 because they will require another six months to undergo “software certification” after all of them have have arrived in India. These ISEs, which have cost India around Euro 1.3 billion for their “non-recurring” design and development cost, range from radar enhancements, Israeli helmet-mounted displays and low-band jammers to towed decoy systems, and the engine capability for "cold start" from high-altitude regions.

India has already paid over Rs 34,000 crore to France in “milestone-linked installments” under the 2016 contract.
..

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2499
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby abhik » 21 Sep 2019 13:10

That 1.3 billion euro we are paying for Rafael enhancements must be close to half of what we have spent on LCA development?

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3305
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 21 Sep 2019 15:18

abhik wrote:That 1.3 billion euro we are paying for Rafael enhancements must be close to half of what we have spent on LCA development?


well that puts things in perpective doesnt it !! .. subsidising another countrys Mil Ind complex !!

But then if you can afford a porsche , it likely to be a third car used for special occasions :mrgreen: , its never going to be your regular BMW

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4428
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 22 Sep 2019 05:35

Actually what he missed out on and what seems to be the strongest indicator of a possible deal for 36 more Rafale jets is Eric Trappier stating in an interview on French TV that a Rafale deal for 36 more is possible. Anyway, this is what a lot of BRF posters including me were hoping for when the first 36 were ordered itself. After this, even if the 114 MRCA deal doesn’t materialize anytime in the next 5 years, the IAF will have some breathing space with Rafale, Tejas Mk1A and the additional Su-30 and MiG-29 jets coming in.


First Rafale In IAF Hands, Decks Cleared For Follow-on Order For 36

livefist link

With the first Rafale ‘handed over’ to the Indian Air Force on September 19 in France, proceedings have officially begun towards the commissioning of four jets into Indian service on October 8 at Merignac with India’s defence minister Rajnath Singh in attendance. The first jets in Indian hands also clear decks for something bigger that’s remained in suspended animation for months through India’s stormy election season — a follow-on order for 36 more Rafales for a total of 72 aircraft. It remains unclear when the Narendra Modi government will pull the trigger on a second deal, though there are strong indications that the groundwork has been laid.

...
A second deal appeared afoot in March 2018 when the French government officially request the Indian MoD to reveal that the two countries were in discussions to conclude a deal for an additional 36 Rafale jets. All possibility of this quickly evaporated with the opposition Congress Party escalating its campaign against the 2016 Rafale deal and alleging corruption and cronyism. With the dust settling on the Rafale narrative following a massive election victory for the ruling Narendra Modi government — and the political potency of the Congress campaign proving a non-starter — the political legroom to revive intentions to add 36 Rafales to the order has increased. It is now known that that the Emmanuel Macron government in August officially refreshed its offer of 36 more Rafales to India on terms that take into account India’s ‘one-time’ investment component in the country-specific enhancements and infrastructure to support the aircraft in Ambala and Hasimara.

...

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1096
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 23 Sep 2019 02:34

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 243729.cms

Government likely to order 36 more Rafale fighter jets

New Delhi: Shrugging off the controversy around the previous deal, the Narendra Modi government has finalized a deal for another 36 Rafale fighter jets, according to media reports.

An Indian Defence Research Wing report published on Saturday said the new order will be inked in early 2020.

Bart S
BRFite
Posts: 1990
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Bart S » 23 Sep 2019 04:04

Nikhil T wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/government-likely-to-order-36-more-rafale-fighter-jets/articleshow/71243729.cms

Government likely to order 36 more Rafale fighter jets

New Delhi: Shrugging off the controversy around the previous deal, the Narendra Modi government has finalized a deal for another 36 Rafale fighter jets, according to media reports.

An Indian Defence Research Wing report published on Saturday said the new order will be inked in early 2020.


This article cites the source of the rumour as IDRW, a bunch of know-nothings who shamelessly plagiarize other people's articles under the guise of being a 'news aggregation' portal and routinely spread various rumours.


I hope that we buy 36 more, perhaps 72 more if we can manage it, but going by the source of the news, this could well be tripe.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18398
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2019 06:24

The first part of the article quotes IDRW (facepalm moment right there). Second part, quotes Govt sources. Perhaps we still have hope.

The most interesting part as Rakesh (?) pointed out is that the MMRCA Part 2 has still not even received an AON from GOI. LOL!
Ergo, the induction of 18x Su-30, 21x MiG-29, 83x LCA, and 36 + 36 Rafale may well be enough to cancel the frigging deal.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1096
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 23 Sep 2019 07:23

Karan M wrote:The first part of the article quotes IDRW (facepalm moment right there). Second part, quotes Govt sources. Perhaps we still have hope.

The most interesting part as Rakesh (?) pointed out is that the MMRCA Part 2 has still not even received an AON from GOI. LOL!
Ergo, the induction of 18x Su-30, 21x MiG-29, 83x LCA, and 36 + 36 Rafale may well be enough to cancel the frigging deal.


Hope they don’t go in for more Rafales. I’d invest the Rs 50,000 crore saved in indigenous systems - churn out 2 squadrons of LCA FoC, another 2 squadrons of MK1A, and accelerate the MKI upgrade.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5037
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Sep 2019 11:28

Nikhil T wrote:Hope they don’t go in for more Rafales. I’d invest the Rs 50,000 crore saved in indigenous systems - churn out 2 squadrons of LCA FoC, another 2 squadrons of MK1A, and accelerate the MKI upgrade.


Am glad you are not the one making decisions.

vimal
BRFite
Posts: 272
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby vimal » 23 Sep 2019 11:45

Nikhil T wrote:
Karan M wrote:The first part of the article quotes IDRW (facepalm moment right there). Second part, quotes Govt sources. Perhaps we still have hope.

The most interesting part as Rakesh (?) pointed out is that the MMRCA Part 2 has still not even received an AON from GOI. LOL!
Ergo, the induction of 18x Su-30, 21x MiG-29, 83x LCA, and 36 + 36 Rafale may well be enough to cancel the frigging deal.


Hope they don’t go in for more Rafales. I’d invest the Rs 50,000 crore saved in indigenous systems - churn out 2 squadrons of LCA FoC, another 2 squadrons of MK1A, and accelerate the MKI upgrade.


Amen to that! Hope your word reaches the right parties involved.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1096
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 23 Sep 2019 12:24

Karthik S wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:Hope they don’t go in for more Rafales. I’d invest the Rs 50,000 crore saved in indigenous systems - churn out 2 squadrons of LCA FoC, another 2 squadrons of MK1A, and accelerate the MKI upgrade.


Am glad you are not the one making decisions.


Right back at you. Your previous posts salivating at the prospect of more Rafales are for all to see.

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1437
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 23 Sep 2019 13:44

Nikhil and Vimal,

We are not yet at the stage where we can live without imports. Western technologies from nations like France & Israel is very much needed to counter foreseeable threats in our hostile neighborhood. This allows us time to invest in our own local R&D and build our own eco system. I sincerely hope Rafale is the last foreign fighter we have to purchase. After this it will be LCA Mk2, AMCA, upgraded MKI.

The real focus in 6th generation fighter is about weapon system deployed, sensor suite, data fusion, sophisticated EW and net centric warfare. Equipment developed for MWF LCA Mk2 will help us lay the foundation for 5th/6th generation avionics.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5037
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Sep 2019 14:11

Sumeet wrote:Nikhil and Vimal,

We are not yet at the stage where we can live without imports. Western technologies from nations like France & Israel is very much needed to counter foreseeable threats in our hostile neighborhood. This allows us time to invest in our own local R&D and build our own eco system. I sincerely hope Rafale is the last foreign fighter we have to purchase. After this it will be LCA Mk2, AMCA, upgraded MKI.

The real focus in 6th generation fighter is about weapon system deployed, sensor suite, data fusion, sophisticated EW and net centric warfare. Equipment developed for MWF LCA Mk2 will help us lay the foundation for 5th/6th generation avionics.


+1, still wonder why is it so difficult for certain people to understand this.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3305
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 23 Sep 2019 15:35

Karthik S wrote:
Sumeet wrote:Nikhil and Vimal,

We are not yet at the stage where we can live without imports. Western technologies from nations like France & Israel is very much needed to counter foreseeable threats in our hostile neighborhood. This allows us time to invest in our own local R&D and build our own eco system. I sincerely hope Rafale is the last foreign fighter we have to purchase. After this it will be LCA Mk2, AMCA, upgraded MKI.

The real focus in 6th generation fighter is about weapon system deployed, sensor suite, data fusion, sophisticated EW and net centric warfare. Equipment developed for MWF LCA Mk2 will help us lay the foundation for 5th/6th generation avionics.


+1, still wonder why is it so difficult for certain people to understand this.


Joining one of the western fighter programmes could pave the way to access some critical tech for a 6th gen fighter.. even if the amca performs to it's intended levels it would not reach 6th generation..tech would have advanced much further at that point. Would it not be wise to think about such a potential scenario now ?

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2496
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 23 Sep 2019 15:56

Our planned induction till 2026:
LCA MK1 FOC- 20
MK1A- 83
Rafale: 36
Potential 2nd tranche Rafale: 36
Mig 29: 21
Su30: 18

Total: 214 in 7 years. i.e. almost 30 jets per year! Not even considering the MMRCA 2.0

If another FOC sqd can be sneaked in, would make around 230 jets!

Would be nice to add a single sqd of F35 for all the "bhai bhai bonding" b/w trump and modi, P***ing off the Pak & Chinis, it will be a icing on the cake.

After that comes 180 or 200 MWF and the big boy AMCA.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 23 Sep 2019 22:22

kit wrote:Joining one of the western fighter programmes could pave the way to access some critical tech for a 6th gen fighter.. even if the amca performs to it's intended levels it would not reach 6th generation..tech would have advanced much further at that point. Would it not be wise to think about such a potential scenario now ?


The MOD/IAF would be wise to do nothing like that, at this moment. First of all, nothing has been described, in any form of detail that would suggest that the couple of European programs are indeed seeking 6th generation tech, or a fairly substantial leap from the currently operational or planned 5th generation aircraft. Until they do some basic S&T work, demonstrate that and then define a baseline for an EMD push there is no way to know where those programs are headed from a technical perspective - digital graphics, and plastic mockup backdrops for head-of-state handshakes and agreements not withstanding . Right now they've decided to come together to get something going so that it can be operational in 2040 in the case of FCAS/SCAF, or "2030's" in case of what the Brits, swedes and Italians are proposing..Where they go with these aircraft projects and whether these are proactive programs (aimed at a projected threat or capability gap) or a reactionary measure to the fact that Lockheed Martin and JSF industrial partners are projected to sell more F-35's in Europe over a 10 year period than all three Euro Canards combined is TBD.

Secondly, the partnerships have not settled and the uncomfortable and often tricky negotiations have yet to happen since we are talking about peanuts at the moment (short term $$ investments). Will the Germans agree to spend high single digit Billion Euros for a Naval conversion or a design optimized for both land and naval applications? The French won't play ball unless they get a carrier capable fighter and the Germans have no carriers.. Will the German accept the French view on technology and aircraft sales and transfer without domestic political considerations? Will the UK, Italy and Sweden commit to a program beyond the small S&T work they've agreed to do at the moment? Then on top of this will be the constant inter EU/NATO or partner level jousting and battle over work share (both guaranteed and promised) and then they will haggle over overall program spend, timelines, who gets what. For reference, have a look at the EURO MALE program, and that wasn't a 100+ Billion Euro program as at least one of these will end up becoming..There is a pretty substantial geopolitical hurdle when there is no single dominant partner and all consider themselves as equals..It leads to lots of politics and delays..

Things will take time to settle and they may well take multiple turns as programs are baselined and partners come and go or programs combine. Best to sit it out and let it happen and then evaluate based on the technical merits of what they are proposing to design and build. Right now they are only attempting to do some initial work to establish design and capability parameters. The real hard stuff hasn't begun yet. Meanwhile, fleet replacement needs of 2030-2040 timeframe, demand that the AMCA be invested in with a entry into service in the second half of 2030's as an objective. None of those programs will deliver by then.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2019 22:54

Nikhil T wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Am glad you are not the one making decisions.

Right back at you. Your previous posts salivating at the prospect of more Rafales are for all to see.

Please stop sniping at each other. Thanks.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2019 23:02

https://twitter.com/Veteran__007/status ... 3793784833 --->

The Rafale will be India's most capable fighter aircraft. Quick math with the current best Su-30MKI:

Loitering Capability: 1.5 times of Su-30
Range: 780-1055 km vs 400-550 of Su-30
Sorties: 5 per 24 hours against 3 by Su-30
Availability: 75% against 55% of Su-30


=================================================

The last two are the key most important factors. The numbers of sorties each aircraft can do in a day and the availability. That itself is a huge plus. No point in numbers (i.e. Su-30MKI), if the availability is poor.

The only two real contenders in the MRCA contest are the Rafale and the F-18. The question that the IAF will be looking at is what can the F-18 do better than the Rafale? If the differences are marginal, is it worth the investment to induct yet another 4th generation aircraft? Should the IAF complement the Rafale with yet another 4th gen bird or just induct more Rafales onlee? Like a follow on order of another 36 birds as is being reported in the media? And then there is this...

First Rafale In IAF Hands, Decks Cleared For Follow-on Order For 36
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/09 ... or-36.html

Beyond the IAF, the Rafale is also in contention for the Indian Navy’s carrier-borne fighter requirement for 57 aircraft. The Rafale prospectively goes up against Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet for this contest. The navy’s contest is unlikely to make forward movement before the end of next year.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2019 23:15

nam wrote:Mig 29: 21
Su30: 18

These two are not yet in the bag. I hope it happens though.

nam wrote:If another FOC sqd can be sneaked in, would make around 230 jets!

I am hoping for another 2 - 3 more units of the Mk1/Mk1A.

40 Mk1 (2 units) + 83 Mk1A (4 units) + possible 3 Mk1A units (60 birds) = 183 aircraft. That would a great production run before the production lines transition to the Tejas Mk2 variant.

In January of this year, Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa said that the IAF is committed to procure 12 squadrons of the Tejas Mk2. Below is the link. Obviously numbers and requirements will change as the aircraft nears completion. At 12 squadrons, using 18 per squadron as a rule of thumb, one is looking at a production run of 216 aircraft. 216 + 183 = 399 birds. From a production run standpoint alone (numerous other benefits though), that would be a huge success for the Tejas program. Anything above 300 birds would be well worth the investment made from the preceding decades. Add Tejas SPORT into the mix and the numbers will only go higher for the Tejas.

The Tejas program can truly be a Make in India success story. Tejas = Radiance!

IAF chief flags delays in manufacture of equipment
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 142246.ece
31 January 2019

The IAF has contracted for 40 LCA Mk-I jets, issued a Request For Proposal (RFP) for 83 LCA Mk-IA variants and committed to procure 12 squadrons of LCA Mk-II and eventually the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).


nam wrote:Would be nice to add a single sqd of F35 for all the "bhai bhai bonding" b/w trump and modi, P***ing off the Pak & Chinis, it will be a icing on the cake.

As it stands right now, the IAF does not want the F-35 and the US Govt will not sell the F-35 either (due to India's S-400 purchase).

nam wrote:After that comes 180 or 200 MWF and the big boy AMCA.

Amen to that.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2019 23:26

By the way, please read this post from Karan M. Fantastic post as always from him (and read the whole thing), but there is something *VERY* interesting in what he mentioned in there. This para below will be the key USP of the Tejas Mk 2. Door Knocker is the name of the game. And if the Tejas Mk2 can do that, it will be fabulous. I expect some form of the Spectra EW suite to land up on the Mk 2 variant. OR perhaps even something from DARE (Defence Avionics Research Establishment)? So a desi Spectra EW suite perhaps?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689&p=2382365#p2382365

Karan M wrote:This is a solid design which when executed will be a worthy replacement for much of the IAFs fleet. Missiles like the SCALP which the MWF is designed to carry will be very hard for even advanced IADS to pick up and combat. They fly low enough that large SAM systems can't effectively target them (despite mast mounted systems) and their signature is too low for the close in weapons systems to easily target. They offer an excellent "door knocker" capability.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2496
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 23 Sep 2019 23:47

Rakesh wrote:As it stands right now, the IAF does not want the F-35 and the US Govt will not sell the F-35 either (due to India's S-400 purchase).


GoI can do a "Apache" on the IAF, if need be. Not many of us would have believed of seeing Apaches in Indian colors.

I am sure we can convince Trump babu to roll out a Presidential wavier on F35 being sold to one country with S400, if need be, as part of "strengthening a democratic ally's defenses against Communist China"! :rotfl:

Irrespective of that, we now seem to have a plan in place to arrest falling numbers. 230 jets in 7 years would be fabulous!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2019 23:59

The tech on the F-35 is highly sensitive and LM will not allow any opportunity for that tech to become compromised. Trump (or any future US President) will have to follow (and obey) the advice of the Pentagon on this. Even if a US President wanted to sell the F-35 to India, he would be stopped from doing so. The Congress will have to approve such a sale (as with all previous military sales to India, incl Apache) and they will not.

Regardless, the IAF does not even want the plane.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Sep 2019 00:15

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Veteran__007/status/1175336643793784833 --->

The Rafale will be India's most capable fighter aircraft. Quick math with the current best Su-30MKI:

Loitering Capability: 1.5 times of Su-30
Range: 780-1055 km vs 400-550 of Su-30
Sorties: 5 per 24 hours against 3 by Su-30
Availability: 75% against 55% of Su-30


=================================================

The last two are the key most important factors. The numbers of sorties each aircraft can do in a day and the availability. That itself is a huge plus. No point in numbers (i.e. Su-30MKI), if the availability is poor.

The numbers tweeted there seem really strange if not straight from a rafale fanboy.

1.5x loiter time
30% extra range

Even the availability of the mki is not as ridiculously low as pointed out. Currently close to 70%. I understand people want the rafale badly, so do I but the are bogus claims are just that.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2019 00:19

Cain Marko wrote:The numbers tweeted there seem really strange if not straight from a rafale fanboy.

1.5x loiter time
30% extra range

Even the availability of the mki is not as ridiculously low as pointed out. Currently close to 70%. I understand people want the rafale badly, so do I but the are bogus claims are just that.

The bolded part in the tweet are spot on about the Rafale. The issue is not about the Su-30, but more about what the Rafale can do. I cannot edit the tweet (as it is not mine) and posted it as is. The five sorties per day by the Rafale is confirmed by Air Marshal Vinod Patney (Retd) and the 75% availability is also confirmed as per the PBL in the agreement signed in Sept 2016.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Sep 2019 00:43

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:The numbers tweeted there seem really strange if not straight from a rafale fanboy.

1.5x loiter time
30% extra range

Even the availability of the mki is not as ridiculously low as pointed out. Currently close to 70%. I understand people want the rafale badly, so do I but the are bogus claims are just that.

The bolded part in the tweet are spot on about the Rafale. The issue is not about the Su-30, but more about what the Rafale can do. I cannot edit the tweet (as it is not mine) and posted it as is. The five sorties per day by the Rafale is confirmed by Air Marshal Vinod Patney (Retd) and the 75% availability is also confirmed as per the PBL in the agreement signed in Sept 2016.

I'm not surprised about the difference in sortie rates but the mki availability rate is dated. And the endurance figures are incorrect.

The rafale is very unlike tohave 30% extra range with a similar loadout or 1.5 times loiter rates. It's not flying on dilithium crystals...

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2757
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2019 00:56

JayS wrote:Wasn't Sq 20 the Lightnings similarly resurrected some time before it actually got Su30MKI inducted in it..??

Yes, it was, but the actual ceremony was induction of Su-30MKI and not the resurrection. In this case, even resurrection was a ceremony. Typically post resurrection the pilots & technicians are in Russia or France or HAL Bangalore. In this case wonder if they flew back for the ceremony.

Anyways ACM Dhanoa is the ACM of whole IAF and not No 17 Sq. Same for Gen V K SIngh who was COAS of whole IA and not Rajput Regiment. Sometimes these unit loyalties are overdone by the top brass.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Sep 2019 00:56

What I'm really curious about is how did they manage to pull up the mki rates so significantly. And how much did it cost. Last I checked they were actually aiming for 80%...

More importantly, why the heck did they not have this setup to begin with. Poor MP had to fix it.

I think once the Rambha is upgraded, she'll again be top dog in the inventory.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1096
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 24 Sep 2019 01:08

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:The numbers tweeted there seem really strange if not straight from a rafale fanboy.

1.5x loiter time
30% extra range

Even the availability of the mki is not as ridiculously low as pointed out. Currently close to 70%. I understand people want the rafale badly, so do I but the are bogus claims are just that.

The bolded part in the tweet are spot on about the Rafale. The issue is not about the Su-30, but more about what the Rafale can do. I cannot edit the tweet (as it is not mine) and posted it as is. The five sorties per day by the Rafale is confirmed by Air Marshal Vinod Patney (Retd) and the 75% availability is also confirmed as per the PBL in the agreement signed in Sept 2016.


The 400-550KM range for MKI looks terribly off. I'd love to know what assumptions went behind both numbers (full loadout, full fuel, low altitude), because the stated number doesn't seem correct to me.

Sumeet wrote:Nikhil and Vimal,

We are not yet at the stage where we can live without imports. Western technologies from nations like France & Israel is very much needed to counter foreseeable threats in our hostile neighborhood. This allows us time to invest in our own local R&D and build our own eco system. I sincerely hope Rafale is the last foreign fighter we have to purchase. After this it will be LCA Mk2, AMCA, upgraded MKI.

The real focus in 6th generation fighter is about weapon system deployed, sensor suite, data fusion, sophisticated EW and net centric warfare. Equipment developed for MWF LCA Mk2 will help us lay the foundation for 5th/6th generation avionics.


Agreed, it may be worthwhile idea for us to invest in joint 6th gen program, but I fail to understand what threat do we envision in our neighborhood that will need the Rs 50,000 crore follow on order for 36 x Rafales now.

If anything, Balakot has shown that the M2Ks, MKIs and Bisons performed spectacularly, proving to be more than a match for whatever PAF threw at us (JF-17s and F-16s). I don't see the PAF investing Rs 1,00,000 crore in a new type to keep up with us or them having 18 squadrons of 4th gen fighters unlike the IAF. With the planned induction of additional Mig-29s and Su-30s as well as the Rs.10,000 crore M2K upgrade, we will retain both the numerical and technological edge over the PAF. Similarly, the PLAAF can be kept at bay by accelerating our Su-30MKI upgrade.

So, I'd rather throw the money at additional LCA squadrons and MKI upgrades versus paying Rs. 50,000 crore for just two more squadrons of gold plated planes that we don't even get the technology for.
Last edited by Nikhil T on 24 Sep 2019 02:49, edited 1 time in total.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Sep 2019 01:17

Buy 36 more as an interim silver bullet and be done with it. No more. And I'm not even sure if another 36 are necessary. The rafale is the epitome of a non vlo fighter but its usefulness beyond a few numbers is unconvincing, not when faced with a near future where a vlo platform will be needed and not when it's cost is so prohibitive. Not to mention that we'll soon see a fleet of advanced Tejas and upgraded MKI.

We don't want to be stuck in the 2030s with exorbitant 4gen fleet when 5+gen platforms start becoming more common.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3305
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 24 Sep 2019 01:58

brar_w wrote:The MOD/IAF would be wise to do nothing like that.....

Very good reply Brar !.. Good to have people like you around. Thank you !

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53187
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Sep 2019 02:14

Rakesh the further order for 36 Rafale means a choice has been made.
No to F-18

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2019 03:03

Cain Marko wrote:Even the availability of the mki is not as ridiculously low as pointed out. Currently close to 70%. I understand people want the rafale badly, so do I but the are bogus claims are just that.

Cain Marko wrote:I'm not surprised about the difference in sortie rates but the mki availability rate is dated. And the endurance figures are incorrect.

The rafale is very unlike to have 30% extra range with a similar loadout or 1.5 times loiter rates. It's not flying on dilithium crystals...

The Rambha availability has not gone above 65%. If you have any current CAG reports or news articles, please do post. This is what I found.

Critical India-Russia Pact to Improve Fighter Aircraft Availability
https://sputniknews.com/military/201701 ... raft-pact/
14 January 2017

Sources told Sputnik that delegation level talks are scheduled in March to sign the contract for improving spare parts availability including manufacturing some of them in India. Meanwhile, a significant improvement has witnessed in the availability of Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft in last two years. "Sukhoi availability which had slipped to 46%, today is now above 63%," Parrikar said.

The Indian government is of opinion that a logistic hub will further improve the availability of Sukhoi-30 from the current 63%.


Government admits only 55% of fighter aircraft fleet operational owing to technical issues
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 206678.cms
14 July 2018

Chishchevoy said that the main purpose of the new agreement is to increase the reliability and availability of the Su-30 fleet to 60% and higher. The availability rate is the number of aircraft in the entire fleet that are available for combat missions at any given time. At present, just over 50% of India's Su-30 fleet 272 of the fighters have been ordered are available for combat missions as the rest are either undergoing repairs or grounded due to delay in the supply of spare parts. Defence Minister Parrikar has told ET in the past that his aim is to increase this availability rate to 65% and above so that the available resources of the air force are used optimally.
....
There is a possibility that the availability of the fleet could touch the magical figure of 75%. Chishchevoy said that the Russian proposal ten years ago when the fleet was young was to appoint Sukhoi as the single supplier responsible for the serviceability of the fleet and 75% would be 'guaranteed'.


Cain Marko wrote:What I'm really curious about is how did they manage to pull up the mki rates so significantly. And how much did it cost. Last I checked they were actually aiming for 80%...

More importantly, why the heck did they not have this setup to begin with. Poor MP had to fix it.

I think once the Rambha is upgraded, she'll again be top dog in the inventory.

Due to this....

India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75%
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 075387.cms

Bengaluru: Made in India spares for Su-30MKI jets
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/ ... -jets.html


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: wig and 67 guests