VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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kit
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 20 Dec 2019 11:45

viveks wrote:
Kartik wrote:As for active cancellation, that is a myth

I have read some fairly detailed discussion on this subject in the aviation key publishing forum, where folks are divulging details about radar emissions and what true stealth is...discussion appeared pretty plausible to folks with fare engineering and aviation knowledge. Also, they discussed a few sentences about Rafale's performance in few missions where it managed to farely hide itself while going about its mission. Unsure if it could really true or not....who knows we are just enthusiasts and mere civilian with what public knowledge available to through these mediums.


+1 :D .. very sensible answer Sir.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 25 Dec 2019 02:19

Indranil wrote:Kartik,

One of my friends is a Top Gun instructor. He has experience in over 20 types. He got to fly a Rafale too. When IAF had chosen Rafale, I had asked him for his opinion. His first remark was that in terms of aircraft performance, a Rafale was much more energetic than a F-18. I said, but a F-18 E/F is not a very good benchmark for this. He did not like that comment :D . After a bit of calming, he explained what I have always heard, every aircraft has its forte. For example, you don't want to engage a F-18 in nose pointing ability. But, I pressed on saying that the Rafale and EF was developed later and had huge TWR advantage over the F-18 E/F which he agreed. You would see that the maneuvers Collins refers to adherent to the same aspect.

Yes, the avionics, sensor fusion, display and symbology of Rafale was a generation ahead of any fighter even until the beginning of this decade. But, not much has changed in the Rafale since its advent. So others have almost caught up. HV Thakur showcased some of the aspects of SPORT. You could see terrain maping using GPS+radar, and in flight recalculation at the AI'19 footage. Israeli/Chinese all have caught up. The US obviously has fielded the F35 whose avionics and sensor fusion is probably the current benchmark.


But the Rafale is in production and the F-35 isn't available to us. Israelis have no platform on which to build the level of sensor capability that the Rafale has. All they manage to do is add a few avionics items to F-16s or F-35s that they are provided by the USA.

What was demoed at AI'19 for the LCA SPORT was just that- a demo with non functioning pages. Impressive, but still a work in progress. I really hope to see it at that level on the MWF.

But in all respects, the airframe, sensors, sensor fusion, agility, weapons, the Rafale is the most balanced of all jets today, IMO. If the MRCA should be the last imported fighter for the IAF, my fervent hope is that it will be the Rafale.

BTW, the Rafale M has a TTL of 5000 hours, the Air Force variant is at 6000 hours. Confirmed by a French poster elsewhere.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2019 20:02

Rakesh wrote:Rafale Aircraft - the Untold Story: Part I
https://www.cppr.in/wp-content/uploads/ ... Part-I.pdf

By Commander Jayakrishnan N Nair (Retd) - a Senior Fellow (Defence and Military Analysis) at the Centre for Public Policy Research

Note: Weapon capabilities and avionic suites of Rafale will be dealt in the following articles (Part II and III)

Rafale Aircraft - the Untold Story: Part II
https://www.cppr.in/wp-content/uploads/ ... art-II.pdf

By Commander Jayakrishnan N Nair (Retd) - a Senior Fellow (Defence and Military Analysis) at the Centre for Public Policy Research

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 28 Dec 2019 06:16

Image

2 IAF Rafales, one (likely RB003) with the roundel below the cockpit and the other (RB002) with the roundel behind the cockpit. Beauties!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 28 Dec 2019 06:18

Another pic of RB003

Image

I'm in love once again! Many years ago when I was a teen and couldn't afford expensive scale model kits, I built a twin seat Rafale model by hand. It was in the same overall dark grey color, but I never put any IAF roundel or fin flash, secretly hoping against hope that I'd one day see it in IAF colors. Some day I'll get to put the IAF markings on my hand made 1/72 Rafale and put it up in my display finally.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Dec 2019 06:23

Kartik, your wish came true :) That is one gorgeous bird. Thank you for posting these pictures.

I love the B variant over the C variant. That twin seater is beautiful!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Dec 2019 11:17

If we are smart we will order 18 this year + another 18 in 2 years to build the fleet, That is after finalising LCA Tejas MK1/1A orders

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 28 Dec 2019 12:22

Rakesh wrote:Kartik, your wish came true :) That is one gorgeous bird. Thank you for posting these pictures.

I love the B variant over the C variant. That twin seater is beautiful!


Yes it did. Nearly 18 years after I built that Rafale B model!

Indeed the Rafale B twin seater is even sexier looking than the Rafale C..IMO, and this is just IMO, it is one of the most beautiful airplanes ever designed, a masterpiece. Fulcrum is another beauty, but its not as refined as this jet.

Open this image in a new tab to see it in full quality. One of the clearest shots of an Indian Rafale so far

Image

credits in pic.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Dec 2019 17:16

Kartik wrote:Another pic of RB003

I'm in love once again! Many years ago when I was a teen and couldn't afford expensive scale model kits, I built a twin seat Rafale model by hand. It was in the same overall dark grey color, but I never put any IAF roundel or fin flash, secretly hoping against hope that I'd one day see it in IAF colors. Some day I'll get to put the IAF markings on my hand made 1/72 Rafale and put it up in my display finally.


Looks very unfussy about it's menu. Will eat vipers and some exotic Chinese food too.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 11 Jan 2020 02:06

From AW&ST

The spike in combat fighter deliveries is helping to offset a difficult market for the company’s Falcon business jet.

Last year, Dassault delivered 12 Rafales. As of Dec. 31, the backlog stood at 75 Rafales, including 28 for French forces.


Egypt, which in 2015 signed the first Rafale export contract, received the last of its 24 fighters in July. Deliveries to Qatar are in full swing, and the first hand-over of 36 aircraft to India took place last October. Controversy surrounding the contract award has slowed a follow-on competition by the Indian Air Force for another 110 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, a contract for which the Rafale is being competed.

—Thierry Dubois in Lyon


The backlog dictates the pace of deliveries. Clearly, Dassault will aggressively seek more export orders to keep a comfortable backlog while retaining the delivery rate of 12 Rafales per year. Since Egyptian deliveries are complete and Qatari deliveries are on-going, leaving mostly IAF Rafales out of the export orders, the pressure will be on the sales teams to get more numbers added.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 11 Jan 2020 02:32

It is a constant juggle between maintaining a backlog and ensuring a production rate which keeps the aircraft competitive when it comes to price. Backlog can drop significantly and the production line will still be kept alive because France wants it alive. The program has delivered less than 200 aircraft (IIRC) and has been in continuous production for for about 23 years (and an additional 3 years of production in the early 1990's before production was suspended for a few years). No company or customer chasing efficient production and acquisition would stretch it out that much. They've accepted an efficiency penalty because it keeps France alive in the fast jet business and there is something available for French defense spending to allow it to buy the aircraft over a longer time frame.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Jan 2020 12:53

What happened of the reports 3-4 months back that government is mulling purchase of additional 36 Rafale ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2020 13:42

Fake News Sir. The IAF is going ahead with the MRFA contest.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2020 22:16

I am not sure how practical that is, TBH. Is the GOI/MOD just leading the IAF up an (un)affordable garden path? Around 20 Billion Euros considering the same deal as on the 36 Rafales and with a 25% discount for pre-installed infra.

It would have been simpler and more affordable to just focus on 36 more Rafales, add more upgraded Flankers + Flanker upgrades, LCA MK1As.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2020 22:34

The MoD needs to order more than 83 Tejas Mk1As. That number is way too little. Another squadron or two worth of Mk1As will keep the line churning, till the Mk2 comes along. And two additional Rafale squadrons would be perfect way to end this MRCA tamasha once in for all.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Roop » 12 Jan 2020 06:46

Thakur_B wrote:What happened of the reports 3-4 months back that government is mulling purchase of additional 36 Rafale ?


All reports about buying Rafale/F16/F18/Su35 etc are always speculation. No one knows about GoI's plans except PM and his cabinet, and sometimes they themselves are not sure, because they have so many competing considerations to take into account when they make a decision. My advice: do not believe any announcement unless officially made by a GoI spokesman at a press conference.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 12 Jan 2020 07:54

and money allocated for it and final deal signed. 36 Rafale took a year from being announced by none other than NAMO. 83 LCA is still waiting for more than a year!! (It is yet not signed!)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 12 Jan 2020 08:32

Just buy 3-4 squadrons of Rafale at F4 standard, upgrade the existing 36 contracted for to be upgraded to F4 standard and close this MRCA saga.

While these 2 programs are going on in parallel (MK1A induction, Rafale F3 IN/Rafale F4 induction) focus should be on ORCA/MWF/MK2 and on Super-30 upgrade for at-least 10 squadrons of MKI. Ideally, besides engine and perhaps IRST (unless our indigenous program bears timely fruit) there should be great commonality between these two.

Get all of this complete within this decade and move focus to UCAV and AMCA induction in next if not at the end of this decade.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2020 16:29

^^^
For second order of Rafales to occur, the French have to come through on their offset obligation on the first set; mainly Kaveri engine certification.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rsatchi » 12 Jan 2020 16:59

srai wrote:^^^
For second order of Rafales to occur, the French have to come through on their offset obligation on the first set; mainly Kaveri engine certification.


There in lies the problem sir
This is big bucks :shock:
Who will slay the 'Chicken that lays golden eggs' :lol: :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby viveks » 23 Jan 2020 03:51

https://youtu.be/DTQlsmkmFp4


Real good video of the Rafale

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2020 04:46

IAF Rafale RB-003 and RB-004 at Bordeaux

Image credits in the pics- Julie Reynes

Image

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2020 04:47

RB-003

Pic credit- Bastien Sellier

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2020 04:50

More IAF Rafale pics- RB004

pic credits- Maciej Swiderski

Image

Beautiful angle
Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2020 04:58

RB003

pic credit- Maciej Swiderski

Image

Image

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2020 05:01

IAF Rafale RB005 has now flown

Image

Image

RB005 take off

Video link on FB

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 23 Jan 2020 05:26



Probably the best demo video of the Rafale ! That pilot is just amazing !

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2020 06:38

RB005

image credit in pic

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby abhik » 23 Jan 2020 11:14

Are all IAF Rafales built till now dual seat versions?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Jan 2020 13:46

Could be, so that our pilots can be trained one by one before they can fly solo.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 24 Jan 2020 00:47

abhik wrote:Are all IAF Rafales built till now dual seat versions?


Yes, all 5 are twin seaters. Will be used to train the core of No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 01:37

abhik wrote:Are all IAF Rafales built till now dual seat versions?

RB001 to RB008 are all twin seat Rafale Bs.

RB009 to RB036 are all single seat Rafale Cs.

8 twin seaters + 28 single seaters = 36 Rafales.

RB008 is the Rafale F3R variant with all the ISE upgrades and will continue to undergo flight testing and certification and will be the last Rafale to be delivered to the IAF. The rest of the Rafales will be upgraded to this standard by Sept 2022, IIRC.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 01:42

@ Kartik, beautiful pictures. Excellent find. Thank You.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 24 Jan 2020 03:26

My pleasure Rakesh.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 24 Jan 2020 09:54

Rakesh wrote:
abhik wrote:Are all IAF Rafales built till now dual seat versions?

RB001 to RB008 are all twin seat Rafale Bs.

RB009 to RB036 are all single seat Rafale Cs.

8 twin seaters + 28 single seaters = 36 Rafales.

RB008 is the Rafale F3R variant with all the ISE upgrades and will continue to undergo flight testing and certification and will be the last Rafale to be delivered to the IAF. The rest of the Rafales will be upgraded to this standard by Sept 2022, IIRC.


Only 2-seater versions will be having 'RB' series nos...
I think Single seaters will be numbered as BS001 to BS028, as a tribute to Dhanoaji...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 18:54

Oh No! That was my fault. Sorry!

Thank You Lakshman for correcting that.

BS009 to BS036 are all single seat Rafale Cs.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Jan 2020 20:36

srai wrote:^^^
For second order of Rafales to occur, the French have to come through on their offset obligation on the first set; mainly Kaveri engine certification.


and become very much more competitive on their pricing too

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 24 Jan 2020 20:38

I believe Dassault is going to look to reduce annual deliveries to around 20 or lower starting this year, in an effort to maintain a healthy backlog. Suppliers sort of get the short end of the deal as they just ramped up a bit but couldn't sustain it for a very long time. All this severely limits their ability to work with their team and pass through any significant discounts especially now that they know that the Rafale holds a fairly substantial advantage in MMRCA 2.0 (already on order soon in service, and India specific changes paid for already).

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 20:44

Dassault will not win the MRCA/MRFA contest on cost. No matter any which way you slice it, the Rafale will always be more expensive than any of the other competitors. Eurofighter will be equally expensive. Boeing and LM will eat Dassault's lunch on cost. The Gripen will be expensive upfront, but the low life cycle costs will be attractive. Sukhoi and Mikoyan will be among the cheapest.

When the technical down-select occurs, the cheaper aircraft will likely not make the cut. The IAF will be left again with expensive planes and then a reduced number will be acquired. Back to Square One!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 24 Jan 2020 20:47

I wouldn't be so sure on cost because there is cost much beyond that of just the aircraft and its immediate sub-systems. How much did the MOD spend on the Rafale's India specific mods? How much in terms of money and time will a similar effort cost on other competitors? That is an unknown but it is reasonable to assume that it will cost around the same (at least). Dassault knows this and it also knows that the Life Cycle cost and support is to its advantage as well (one fleet vs a fragmented fleet) so it is incentivized to negotiate harder than it did with the original deal. It knows that it is in a very comfortable position on many fronts.
Last edited by brar_w on 24 Jan 2020 20:52, edited 1 time in total.


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