VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_P » 29 Jul 2020 18:32

nvishal wrote:I have never seen such ridiculous coverage of a fighter jet handover to India as rafale. The indian media and the hundreds of YouTube Indian defence expert channels have set a record for bizarre behaviour which puts even the nerds to shame.


You probably meant 'Fanboys' saar. Nerds are usually the intense, quiet & introvert type of people.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Shameek » 29 Jul 2020 18:58

#HEAR: Indian #Rafale contingent establishes contact with Indian Navy warship INS Kolkata deployed in Western Arabian Sea.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1288384263901966336

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nvishal » 29 Jul 2020 19:36

Manish_P wrote:You probably meant 'Fanboys' saar. Nerds are usually the intense, quiet & introvert type of people.

By nerds, I meant the usual half-baked village patriots who host and narrate the 2 dozen or so Hindi news channels and their brothers do the same on YouTube and Twitter who think that brahmos and an atgm are enough to destroy every single enemy. This same style of arrogant jingoism has tricked into Marathi/Telugu/kannadiga channels as well.

The Chinese have pointed this out to the GoI, to not let these jokers on the media contribute to a miscalculation. The Chinese hold an edge on mobilization(primary), a clear objective(expansionist) and military independence(indigenization of most weapons platforms and local mfging). India has poor infrastructure that obstructs quick mobilization. It has never expressed desire to merge Tibet and/or zinjiang into the Indian union. It also is almost entirely dependent on foreign platforms for true reliability.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srin » 29 Jul 2020 19:54

I have a cynical way of looking at this tamasha

For the AF, the Rafale publicity is a way to justify choosing such an expensive plane and to ensure that the Govt is soft when they come back and ask for more squadrons. AF doesn't want the MRCA v2.0 - they just want more Rafales.
For the Govt, the Rafale publicity is to shut up the opposition politicians who screamed corruption just a while ago.

Neither situation applies to Tejas, so there is no great benefit in making a big deal out of Tejas induction.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 20:36

Five Rafale aircrafts arrive in India
https://www.indiablooms.com/news-detail ... india.html

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1288 ... 55681?s=20 ---> The Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria & AOC-in-C WAC Air Marshal B Suresh welcomed the first five IAF Rafales which arrived at AF Station Ambala today.

Air Marshal B Suresh is at extreme right. He is retiring at the end of this month. The new WAC Chief will be Air Marshal VR Chaudhari. The Station Commander of Ambala AFS is at extreme left.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 20:42

VIDEO

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1288 ... 69120?s=20 --> 'Golden Arrows' reach home! Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and AOC-in-C WAC Air Marshal B Suresh welcomed the first five IAF Rafales which landed at Air Force Station Ambala earlier today.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Primus » 29 Jul 2020 21:49

sajaym wrote:True. For all the talk about Bharat Mata, I wonder how many of the gents here actually own Tata or Mahindra cars. I own a Hyundai xcent. I've owned Tata & Mahindra vehicles too and the experience was far from satisfactory. With Hyundai, you pay more for service but you get what you pay for -- bulletproof build & problem-free running. My 2014 xcent has run 1,17,000 kms without a single problem other than the bumper which I keep scratching on the road and needs to replaced every 2.5 years. My next vehicle will definitely be another Hyundai or a Toyota.


Totally OT for this thread, but just to illustrate a point which I believe has already been made.

A long time ago I owned a Hyundai Excel, that was all I could afford. It could not reach 60mph on the turnpikes even with the pedal down all the way. The floor on the passenger side was rotting (four yr old car) and I had to caution whoever was sitting there to watch that their feet did not go through. The car had less than 40K miles on it at this time.

Fast forward 20 yrs and the same company produces 'North American Car of the Year' consistently. All of us who are old enough will remember the Japanese products in the 60s were called 'bogus' because of poor manufacturing and reliability. Same for the Chinese in the 90s.

It is only a matter of time before Indian products are as good as any.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 29 Jul 2020 22:55

chetak wrote:All it needs is a suicide missioned "head master's son" type of guy with an el cheapo shoulder fired thingee to puncuture India's balloon and thereafter watch the media cockroaches and other snake oil politicos baying for Modi's blood.

This massive OTT effort has been purposely hyped up and slyly orchestrated by the hostile media and sold out venal "defence experts" to set the stage for anyone willing to do the dirty.


This is exactly my fear as well.
Rafale is a very good jet, better than every other jet we bought till date.
Nevertheless, just like any other jet, it also will have its own share of problems... The most advanced F35 and F22 had crashes recently.
Somehow I feel Rafale is overhyped by many jingos in Govt. and Social media. The less said about mainstream media, the better.
Tomorrow, God-forbid, if some major incident happens (which is unfortunately common in Military aviation), the same media will create a huge ruckus saying that India bought sub-standard jets for a high price.

It will be good if Rafale stays out of limelight for few months.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 23:14

Rafale is going to crash. Just a reality of combat flying.

IAF is prepared for that eventuality. Media and Politicians are not.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem Kumar » 29 Jul 2020 23:32

The PM tweeting about Rafales arriving in India is a bit overboard IMO. Yes, he was responsible for Rafale induction and wants to rub the Congress nose in the dirt.

But if he really believes in Atma Nirbhar, he should be applauding the Tejas FOC & induction publicly, which I didn't see him doing.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jul 2020 23:36

Prem Kumar wrote:But if he really believes in Atma Nirbhar, he should be applauding the Tejas FOC & induction publicly, which I didn't see him doing.

Not true Sir. This tweet is from the Prime Minister's own twitter account...

https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status ... 86464?s=20 ---> Induction of indigenously made Tejas fighter jet into the Air Force fills our hearts with unparalleled pride & happiness. #TransformingIndia

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 29 Jul 2020 23:45

srin wrote:I have a cynical way of looking at this tamasha

For the AF, the Rafale publicity is a way to justify choosing such an expensive plane and to ensure that the Govt is soft when they come back and ask for more squadrons. AF doesn't want the MRCA v2.0 - they just want more Rafales.
For the Govt, the Rafale publicity is to shut up the opposition politicians who screamed corruption just a while ago.

Neither situation applies to Tejas, so there is no great benefit in making a big deal out of Tejas induction.

This is the only explanation that would make me feel better about this tamasha. We definitely need two more squadrons but we all know that if the GoI actually tries an off-the-shelf purchase of 36 more there will be another round of "Rafale scam" tantrums from you know who. This kind of coverage and larger-than-life image being built up of the Rafale might make things easier for the government. At least I hope so.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Raghunathgb » 29 Jul 2020 23:50

nachiket wrote:This is the only explanation that would make me feel better about this tamasha. We definitely need two more squadrons but we all know that if the GoI actually tries an off-the-shelf purchase of 36 more there will be another round of "Rafale scam" tantrums from you know who. This kind of coverage and larger-than-life image being built up of the Rafale might make things easier for the government. At least I hope so.


Considering the current economic situation next 36 rafale can only come at the cost of Tejas LCA in near term.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Punjabi » 30 Jul 2020 00:01

LakshmanPST wrote:
chetak wrote:All it needs is a suicide missioned "head master's son" type of guy with an el cheapo shoulder fired thingee to puncuture India's balloon and thereafter watch the media cockroaches and other snake oil politicos baying for Modi's blood.

This massive OTT effort has been purposely hyped up and slyly orchestrated by the hostile media and sold out venal "defence experts" to set the stage for anyone willing to do the dirty.


This is exactly my fear as well.
Rafale is a very good jet, better than every other jet we bought till date.
Nevertheless, just like any other jet, it also will have its own share of problems... The most advanced F35 and F22 had crashes recently.
Somehow I feel Rafale is overhyped by many jingos in Govt. and Social media. The less said about mainstream media, the better.
Tomorrow, God-forbid, if some major incident happens (which is unfortunately common in Military aviation), the same media will create a huge ruckus saying that India bought sub-standard jets for a high price.

It will be good if Rafale stays out of limelight for few months.


I totally agree...knowing our internal traitors, my BIG fear is someone (Oinkiestaani or XinPinPooPoo or their DesiSlaves) will either try to do a Pathankot or a shoulder fired made in chinkie crap... God forbid, any technical malfunction, media and liberfandoos will scream their lungs out... I think this should have been kept a low key event by government and media. We made it like...Ab Rafale PilotSahib "Sussu" kar rahen hain Oinkiestaan ke uper udte hue, jaldi mein the Ambala mein land karne ke liye...it was way too overboard...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby V_Raman » 30 Jul 2020 00:07

The 5 rafales should be “christened”

Agneyastra - breathes fire into the snow to cause flood
Nagastra - one hit wonder
Brahmastra - cannot be used
Bhaumastra - can dig tunnels to give road connectivity

Praswapastra - the kicker - the one that makes enemies asleep in the battlefield.

Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_(weapon)
Last edited by V_Raman on 30 Jul 2020 00:21, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 30 Jul 2020 00:08

Stop the dhoti shivering. IAF knows how to protect its jets on our own soil. As for crashes, those are a fact of military flying. The Su-30 was also considered a game-changing jet when it was bought and in many ways it is. Still there were crashes eventually and we lived with it. No different for any other aircraft.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 30 Jul 2020 00:24

Anyway on a brighter note, an image showing the various hardpoints and what each can carry. I'm always amazed that the French found a way to put more hardpoints on the Rafale than the Russians did on the much larger Flanker.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby M_Joshi » 30 Jul 2020 00:26

Sat pranaam!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 00:55

Khalsa wrote:
Neela wrote:Doesnt matter. More people should be interested in defense. More kids needs to take up aeronautics & propulsion. We need a whole bunch of new companies to cater to the various sectors in domestic market.


Here here
a post to enshrine and keep as a model.

The essence of BR Forums

Click on the link below. Awesome!

https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/statu ... 67552?s=20 ---> Heartwarming video. This is India. Local youth celebrate landing of Rafale in Ambala with a Sikh gentleman giving running commentary of the landing from a street. ‘Salute Salute - Proud moment of life live dekh rahe hain’, he says with such immense joy in his voice.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Jarita » 30 Jul 2020 00:59

nvishal wrote:I have never seen such ridiculous coverage of a fighter jet handover to India as rafale. The indian media and the hundreds of YouTube Indian defence expert channels have set a record for bizarre behaviour which puts even the nerds to shame.

Utterly embarrassing. Firstly, it speaks to the fact we did not develop our indigenous capability and secondly, it makes us look like desperados. Whoever is advising the government on PR should be sacked.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Shameek » 30 Jul 2020 01:03

Wonderful to see the enthusiasm from the people on the street. We need a generation of people that run to the nearest window or clearing when they hear a jet overhead. Reminds me of the time the first Su-30K came to Pune. After years of seeing the Fulcrum in the skies, the sight of her elder sister was great! :D

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 01:04

https://twitter.com/ShekharGupta/status ... 28417?s=20 ---> Fighter planes can make adult enthusiasts act like juveniles. But, while it’s great that the Rafales have arrived, we must be the global laughing stock tracking each take-off, landing, transit stop, refuelling as if it’s Charles Lindbergh making the first trans-Atlantic flight.

The above tweet was replied by Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar (retd), former Chief of the Western Air Command.

https://twitter.com/Nambitiger1/status/ ... 82082?s=20 ---> I agree with SG’s first line only....this truly is a memorable milestone for aviation in India...not because of the Rafale landing in India, but because of the National attention it got...Just look at the irony!..it took us 5 years to get 5 Rafales, from an emergency procurement.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 01:06

https://twitter.com/JuzJoker/status/128 ... 82241?s=20 ---> If you could throw some light on these 7,500 kilometers done. That's too much for an engine to undergo. So any affect on life of engine?

https://twitter.com/Nambitiger1/status/ ... 31808?s=20 ---> The engines of the Rafale, the SAFRAN M-88 has no limits on its life. However, some of the modules which go in to making the engine are life limited, especially the hot parts. The ferry from France would be but a miniscule fraction of the life of the hot parts.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 01:07

https://twitter.com/rinCFCBaruah/status ... 16672?s=20 ---> Sir, what could be the advantages of a twin seated Rafale Vs a single seated Rafale?

https://twitter.com/Nambitiger1/status/ ... 48992?s=20 ---> The twin seat Rafale offers the advantages of two minds....this is especially true in the ground attack role, where one crew member could concentrate on weapon delivery, while the other could focus on piloting, navigation, sensor management and EW System handling.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Shameek » 30 Jul 2020 01:13

I know people are annoyed by some of the celebrations and some of them are over the top. But these are expensive national assets purchased with our hard earned money and people should be rightly proud of them since its our people that will fly them into war. We need to build the excitement so every kid knows about these and someday wants to fly them.

On the other hand, I hope this also brings about more respect for all military equipment among common people and they share the anger we have when something is damaged or destroyed.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2020 01:16

nachiket wrote:Stop the dhoti shivering. IAF knows how to protect its jets on our own soil. As for crashes, those are a fact of military flying. The Su-30 was also considered a game-changing jet when it was bought and in many ways it is. Still there were crashes eventually and we lived with it. No different for any other aircraft.


The rafale is an emotional issue that resonates with Indian public rather than just an aircraft that is merely a piece of advanced high tech weaponry.

The rafale is actually a very different bird with a massive brand awareness and huge brand recall that is indelibly seared into the psyche of the voting public and bound inseparably with Modi's election victory.

There is no aircraft like this in Indian history in terms of the metrics of recall, identification and brand such as awareness, familiarity and people expect it to provide constant vigil and tireless service just like what they have come to expect from Modi.

That's a tough ask in anyone's book but Modi, in their eyes, manages to do it all.

it's that all-important first impression that lasts in people's minds and helps them trust the machine and most of all, trust the man who single handedly made it happen.

This is the brand that pappu tried so desperately to malign and it was fiercely protected and publicly endorsed by chief's of the Indian armed forces, serving military personnel and other trusted public figures who, in the eyes of the aam aadmi, rated way higher than a braggart like pappu did.

pappu's personalized and weaponized campaign of untruths against Modi based on the non existent rafale scam as the lynchpin backfired disastrously on him and his already low public credibility and tanked the congi campaign. Even the supreme court rejected pappu's lies and made him apologize.

Modi wiped the electoral floor with this entitled and dynastic clown.

the rafale is now part of the election lore. It has taken on a larger than life persona of its own in the minds of the aam aadmi.

Modi rode the rafale to an opposition crushing mandate in 2019 because of all the negativty that was injected and the lies that were spread, rally after election rally.

yes, there were many other factors too but in the eyes and minds of the voting public, the rafale transcended all and became a beacon for the Modi bhakths and they rallied to it deliriously.

Only Modi's Indians understand why this particular fighter aircraft stands for so much more than just weaponry. It is an example of the state of the art weaponization of Modi's persona.

It is the symbol of the dagger that the aam aadmi used gleefully and sometimes even vengefully, to slay an evil dragon whelp like pappu and his sorry ass eyetalian mafia dynasty.
Last edited by chetak on 30 Jul 2020 01:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby V_Raman » 30 Jul 2020 01:28

I guess in terms of public awareness Rafale == Bofors -> Rafale strengthened Modi while Bofors brought RG down. But Bofors was already inducted. I guess Rafale getting inducted after all the publicity and being a positive factor - it will be milked for its worth by the BJP.

For the first time since pre-2014 groundswell for Modi - I am not on the same page...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2020 01:49

V_Raman wrote:I guess in terms of public awareness Rafale == Bofors -> Rafale strengthened Modi while Bofors brought RG down. But Bofors was already inducted. I guess Rafale getting inducted after all the publicity and being a positive factor - it will be milked for its worth by the BJP.

For the first time since pre-2014 groundswell for Modi - I am not on the same page...


let us not forget the Manohar Parrikar factor.

I doubt if one would be able to find a politician as clean, credible and people friendly as he undoubtedly was all his political life.

pappu tried to use Manohar Parrikar for his evil political shenanigans, even while Manohar Parrikar was on his deathbed, by coming out with some concocted and decietful statements.

this "groundswell" as you call it was a sly play in post truth media management, done by some inimical people, that went horribly wrong for them and completely spun out of control, acquiring, on its unguided way, a life of its own.

their plan was probably to target Modi once again using the arrival of the five rafales as evidence of the scam.

this was the letter that Manohar Parrikar was forced to write from his deathbed after pappu's disgraceful visit

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 02:21

Meet the pilots who flew Rafale home: Stories that will inspire the generation next to take to the skies
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2020-07-29

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2020 02:27

Rakesh wrote:Meet the pilots who flew Rafale home: Stories that will inspire the generation next to take to the skies
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2020-07-29


and meet the man who actually sold us the rafale and also said that there was no scam whatsoever.


ANI@ANI · Nov 13, 2018

Price of 36 was exactly the same when you compare with 18 flyaway. 36 is the double of 18.

So as far as I was concerned, it should have been double the price.

But because it was govt to govt, there was negotiation, I had to decrease price by 9%: Dassault CEO Eric Trappier

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2020 03:24

incomparable AMUL


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Jul 2020 11:05

Rakesh wrote:Rafale is going to crash. Just a reality of combat flying.

IAF is prepared for that eventuality. Media and Politicians are not.


It will be a crash of a different kind. DCNS in France leaked 90% of the information out about the India specific Scorpene. How do we know Dassault will not do the same?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 30 Jul 2020 12:41

Mort Walker wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Rafale is going to crash. Just a reality of combat flying.

IAF is prepared for that eventuality. Media and Politicians are not.


It will be a crash of a different kind. DCNS in France leaked 90% of the information out about the India specific Scorpene. How do we know Dassault will not do the same?


Rafale is operated by France as well. It is purely silly to think Dassault will leak information out about it. Has M2Ks information been leaked out till now ?

USN is buying FREMM frigates, why isn't it scared that DCNS will leak out information and then all its money will be down the drain.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Jul 2020 18:38

BK on the arrival of the Raffy.The excessive hype built up on the arrival of just 5 out of a total of merely 36 aircraft,by a host of entities is amusing to read.Those knowledgeable know that it is the sum of the numbers and capabilities of the force that matter,not a single factor.But what is important to note is the manner in which the PAF are restructuring their fleet,using a motley assortment of tech much as the IAF did with the Bison. The Pakis are now trekking the cost-effective way to building up their all-round strength and capability,while we in recent times appear to have forgotten how we won our wars against Pak with eqpt. that wasn't top of the line,but sturdy,honest,capable systems available in large qty.

It is abundantly clear to all that $7.5B to $8B for a mere 36 Rafales works out to a staggering $200M a pop per bird along with some accessories.
An MKI even built at HAL Nasik,15%+ more than a direct import from Ru,costs only 1/3rd! Plus,the MKIs can carry BMos which the Rafales cannot.
As BK says,the speed with which the DM ordered the extra SU-30 MKIs and MIG-29s from Ru after Galwan indicate the cost-effectiveness and capabilities of the same.The cost of the MIG-29s are only $40M a pop,1/5th that of a Rafale,very cost-effective to many experts. Every billion spent on weaponry must be from the most cost-effective option,performance parameters met being a pre-requisite. In the time of CV,hugely reduced industrial growth,massive health expenses,companies are floundering with construction,aviation and tourism sectors collapsing
and the banking sector on the razor's edge with huge NPA losses sinking fast.Add to this is the "yellow peril" in cahoots with "terroristan" on our doorsteps.While money for defence is in short supply,wants are huge. A holistic review of the IAF's force structure,rationalising the many desi fighter programmes which are ridiculously unrealistic given the LCA's track record into fewer but more focussed achievable goals is the need of the hour.
In the interim decade before desi fighters mature and are in smooth production,we have no alternatives but to increase the force strength,but must do it judiciously with cost-effectiveness and capability two sides of the same coin.

Much ado about Rafale
Posted on July 29, 2020
https://bharatkarnad.com/

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 30 Jul 2020 19:11

Only time I agree with Phillip. PAF has added/is adding more Erieyes than IAF's total of AWACs (Phalcons) and AEW (Netras). Their strength in refuellers is 4 compared to IAF's 6. IAF has far larger borders to manage and two hostile neighbors. Purchase of such an expensive aircraft like the Rafale will take away from funds for these and other necessary purchases.

The French will sell anything to anyone. Air wars are not won by equipment alone (in similarly matched opponents). Tactics and training are very important too.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Jul 2020 20:03

Tx. Vivek! Yes,the surprise of sending up 24 aircraft post Balakot by the PAF,even though they achieved v.little downing a Bison for the loss of an F-16, showed how skillfully they had used their AEW aircraft in organising the combined attempted attack. Our borders and airspace so vast makes it imperative that we have adequate numbers in the inventory.Given the speed of aerial combat,even high performance Rafales cannot be in two places at the same time. The sooner the IAF and our gung-ho establishment realise that,and that "quantity has a quality of its own",acquiring large numbers of affordable aircraft asap,the stronger will our air capability be. I think it was AM Masand in Vayu writing a retrospective of the IAF at 87 who also advised apart from affordable aircraft,acquiring more force multipliers like AWACS,AEW and ISR aircraft, easier to send fewer aircraft to the troublespot thanI quote, " in the modern battlefield,to send an aircraft with out AWACS cover and an EW system is like sending a blind lamb to the slaughterhouse". This also ensures less nos. of aircraft needed provided we have enough AWACS/EW aircraft in hand.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby manjgu » 30 Jul 2020 20:53

Phillip..without discounting the usefullness of AEW/AWACS in modern air war..in the india pak context..the narrowness of Pakistan airspace allows indian ground based radars to adequately cover and control the air space ... that could be one of the thoughts. Idk how true but they say IAF knows the moment PAF takes off ... even abhis formation was being directed by ground based controllers not some fancy AEW a/c

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 30 Jul 2020 21:21

manjgu wrote:Phillip..without discounting the usefullness of AEW/AWACS in modern air war..in the india pak context..the narrowness of Pakistan airspace allows indian ground based radars to adequately cover and control the air space ... that could be one of the thoughts. Idk how true but they say IAF knows the moment PAF takes off ... even abhis formation was being directed by ground based controllers not some fancy AEW a/c

So is Indian doctrine Puki centric? Does India not want to dominate/monitor other borders? The border with Pukis is the smallest but if you add up the country has far more to protect than mere Pukistan.

So again - is Raffy purchase a puki centric purchase? Or is it geared more for China? And if it is geared more for China, is there any utility to monitor/control the theater there? There was a remark that PAF had more on time availability of their AEW during Balakot than IAF. And if IAF is aware of every PAF take off - why then weren't 24 planes checked with a larger force on Feb 27th?

Can't have your cake and eat it too. IAF needs to evaluate long term strategy to get to 45 squadrons - I will let you do that using Rafale.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby hnair » 30 Jul 2020 21:56

Vivek K wrote: There was a remark that PAF had more on time availability of their AEW during Balakot than IAF. And if IAF is aware of every PAF take off - why then weren't 24 planes checked with a larger force on Feb 27th?


as Manjgu tried to explain

- You can put a radar on a plane and let it patrol as surveillance (like the turboprops of C130 for US customs,C-thingies, chinese 1950s airframes etc does). It will still not be doing a fast dash to action and battle management over hostile airspace like the original E3 Sentries. Just radar picketing. All the chapathi/kirket-bat mounted crafts of India is mainly for offensive action, as was shown in Balakot. The ground radars do the surveillance and battle management for defensive roles. It is best to conserve those airborne assets for offensive actions, instead of going with a Ramanand Sagar rules of engagement ("he threw a plane with a top mounted radar, let me throw back a similar looking plane, or I will be forced to ham out a jolted-look expression" )

- Pakis use their Eriyes as radar pickets, because they were on the defensive after the Balakot surprise. Those things were there all the time in the air. But India has an extensive integrated network of radars that have many layers and can do pretty decent battle management. So dont really have to put up similar looking planes in the air

- If pakis sent 24 or 240 planes at a time and place of their choosing for ingress, that should be handled by an overlapping air-defense layer, not just interceptors. Even if we had USAF scale fleet, it wills till be inadequate to take on the pakis, if they have the option to the choose the time and place of ingress. Only way out is what USAF does - decimate the fleets of the enemy on the ground, so such missions cant be mounted and then maintain air superiority for rest of war

- Even if every interceptor of IAF was up in the air, the distances are too vast to reach on time to engage the 24. So IAF's handful of interceptors did what it did very successfully: smash the 24's mission and sent them home with two jihadis less

- Rafales seem to be the first hour of war assets like how US used to use the Nighthawk etc. Use Hammer/AASM for SEAD, taking out C4ISR infrastructure etc, using its semi-stealthy airframe as well as all the gadgets like Spectra etc. Ordering a jillion Su30 as Philip is claiming, wont solve the needs for that particular mission. Plus unlike Nightahawk, the Rafales can continue with other special or mundane missions as a multi-role craft.

I dont know why people are pissing on this fine weapon system that was hand-picked by the IAF from the best of the lot, which included whatever Russia or US offered? For a change, lots of things are happening as per plan and Indian weapon systems are also getting its fair share, despite severe budgetary issues

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 30 Jul 2020 22:12

Great reply! However, on the larger question - does the capability come at a cost that IAF cannot afford? With calls to purchase 114 Rafales what does that do to a fleet that has to take on two large airforces? Can India buy 114 Rafales and still be able to afford the additional numbers to get back up close to 45 squadrons? Why can the other air dominance fighter - the Su-30 MKI not work to perform Rafales roles in combination with about 85 upgraded Mig-29s? And also what is the utility of the jags then - aren't they going to take on SEAD in the beginning hours of a fight? Isn't the MKI capable of performing SEAD roles as well? Should IAF work on making the existing MKIs more lethal instead?

We see responses all over the spectrum about the Rafales - nuke delivery, to SEAD as you put it so eloquently.
Question is, can these roles not be performed by the existing fleet and expanding those numbers? And how much does one think an MLU in 2030 for the Rafales cost going by the $65 million per a/c to upgrade M2Ks without engine change? Some use a number of 85% in cost using 3% annual escalation in original cost. But if you escalate current costs to purchase (purchase price $150 mill +??) and look at 85% of the escalated price - would this aircraft be affordable? Does it add capabilities or because of its price impact the force structure in a way to actually reduce overall force projection?


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