VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 25 Jul 2018 12:41

Rakesh wrote:That serial number (BS 001) may not be correct. If memory serves me right, it is something else. I will have to check. You can get a bigger view of the picture below, by dragging the photo into your browser's URL bar.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 0794334209 ---> So this is what the Rafale in Indian Air Force colours will eventually look like.

BadasS 001 is a nice number

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2018 22:52

I believe the single seaters start with EH and the dual seaters start with DH.

Check this link and fifth post from the top ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=80

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2018 23:05

x-post from the Indian Air Force thread....originally posted by BRF Member chetak

Modi sarkar's Rafales cheaper than Sonia regime's: Each aircraft costs Rs 59 crore less

In the deal for 36 Rafale aircraft signed by the Narendra Modi government with France, India has managed to save Rs 59 crore per aircraft in comparison to the estimated cost of 126 planes which were being negotiated for by the UPA government. A government document prepared by the Ministry of Defence and the Indian Air Force this year and accessed by MyNation shows that the per unit price of Modi regime’s Rafales, after taking into account the cost of weapons, maintenance, simulators, repair support and technical assistance is coming out to Rs 1,646 crore while the ones negotiated for by the UPA would have come to Rs 1,705 crore. The document suggests that the cost of the planes under the UPA would have been Rs 255 crore more if the NDA government had settled for the same aircraft that their predecessors had been negotiating for. The total cost of 36 Rafales is Rs 59,262 crore whereas the 126 planes during the UPA time would have cost Rs 1,72,185 crores as per the document. Despite spending Rs 9,855 more on the India Specific Enhancements in the planes in the deal done by the Modi government, the cost of the planes is coming to Rs 59 crore less than the UPA price for each aircraft.

The NDA government has been arguing for a long time that its full-fledged deal for 36 Rafales is much better than the UPA deal that was withdrawn at the negotiations stage itself in terms of both price, as well as the capability, of the planes. This document settles the debate once and for all. Congress president Rahul Gandhi has been making allegations for the last one year that there is a scam in the 36-plane deal done by Modi government and demanding from the government the exact price of the contract with France. The document also shows that the Modi government has also managed to get extra muscle for the planes in form of the 150 km-range METEOR air-to-air beyond visual range missiles while it would also be able to destroy ground targets using the 300-km range SCALP missiles which were not part of the package of the UPA deal. Further, the secret document contains a copy of the file over which the then Defence Minister AK Antony had asked, in writing for a re-examination of the entire process by the Ministry of Defence and its Finance wing (after the finalisation of the commercial negotiations) to determine the lowest bidder — the basis on which Rafale was chosen by India over the European Eurofighter Typhoon, thus confusing the then negotiating team.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 03:22

Image

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 26 Jul 2018 07:18

Rakesh wrote:That serial number (BS 001) may not be correct. If memory serves me right, it is something else. I will have to check.

I believe it was supposed to be DH01.

(DQ for Qatar & DM for Egypt.)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 07:31

I think DH is for the dual seater, no?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 26 Jul 2018 08:56

Rakesh wrote:I think DH is for the dual seater, no?

Yus yus. EH01 for the first single seater (though I think the first aircraft, in general, is usually a family model - for training/transition).

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 09:40

So the single seaters will start at EH01 to EH28 (or something along those lines), with the dual seaters being DH01 to DH08.

28 are single seaters and 8 are dual seaters. The latter is awfully large for just two squadrons.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 27 Jul 2018 10:59

Is the Modi government being transparent about the Rafale deal?

https://scroll.in/video/888158/your-mor ... afale-deal


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Jul 2018 12:06

Austin wrote:Is the Modi government being transparent about the Rafale deal?

https://scroll.in/video/888158/your-mor ... afale-deal



This is more of a political post rather than a factual post.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 27 Jul 2018 13:04

What will the weapons on Rafale, besides Scalp and Meteor ? I guess Mica, AASM Hammer.... Will Rafale use Lightneing 4 being procured from Israeli or would we be "forced" to use Damocles or Areos pod ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 27 Jul 2018 14:27

You don't include the cost of india specfic changes into the cost of the aircraft. That is a one time expense. Next batch of 36 aircraft will come at 3 billion Euros only.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2018 16:33

i dont think we are buying scalp or aasm.

mica and meteor for aa.

ngarm, saaw, garud(amma), griffin/spice, popeye, iron bombs is it for A2G.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Chinmay » 27 Jul 2018 18:03

Kersi wrote:What will the weapons on Rafale, besides Scalp and Meteor ? I guess Mica, AASM Hammer.... Will Rafale use Lightneing 4 being procured from Israeli or would we be "forced" to use Damocles or Areos pod ?


SCALP, Meteor, Mica, SPICE-1000. Lightening G4 integration is part of the deal and Areos recon pods as well

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Jul 2018 09:42

Singha wrote:i dont think we are buying scalp or aasm.

mica and meteor for aa.

ngarm, saaw, garud(amma), griffin/spice, popeye, iron bombs is it for A2G.


Scalp was negotiated for the Rafale and therefore could be shared with the mirage. The only weapons that can't be used by the mirage and are exclusive to the Rafale are probly the meteors.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 29 Jul 2018 20:44

The Rafale Deal: Is There A Scam?


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby prat.patel » 30 Jul 2018 10:28

Thanks to all of the information from this forum - I am personally convinced that there is no corruption in this deal.

But, at the same time I feel that the NDA Govt. has put up a shoddy defense in face of all the allegations.
Its either -
1 - The Govt truly lacks competent personal to strongly and technically counter the allegations and put this nonsense to rest.
2 - The Govt just doesn't care and is over-confident of re-election in spite of all this going on.
3 - The Govt is purposely letting the opposition come all-in on this issue - just to reveal all the details at the right time in the re-election campaign and leave opposition with no time to recover.

In the interest of Indian defense in general; I just hope and pray it is not point no 2 above :| :| :| :|
A change in Govt at this point may have some adverse impacts to some indigenous defense programs (going by the past track record of UPA govts) ... :cry:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 30 Jul 2018 11:23

Singha wrote:i dont think we are buying scalp or aasm.

mica and meteor for aa.

ngarm, saaw, garud(amma), griffin/spice, popeye, iron bombs is it for A2G.


I think it is a big and expensive gamble to send Rafale with iron bombs (or rocket pods) for a CAS mission. Me think that Rafale must be for high values targets using stand-off weapons.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 31 Jul 2018 13:49

Rahul Gandhi, here’s why Rafale is a bigger UPA scandal than Bofors: A simple explainer

By Nitin A Gokhale

First Published 30, Jul 2018,

Rahul Gandhi, here’s why Rafale is a bigger UPA scandal than Bofors

HIGHLIGHTS
Read this to know how RaGa is not telling the truth on either the price of the French planes, the way contracts were awarded, or why Congress sat on the decision as India’s fighter jet numbers kept dwindling alarmingly


Rahul Gandhi is in search of BJP’s ‘Bofors moment.’

But if he and his advisers think the Rafale deal is equivalent of the Bofors scandal for the current government, they are mistaken.

Essentially, the Congress is making two claims on the Rafale issue: One, the NDA government paid an inflated price as compared to the UPA’s price for the fighter jets and two, the government favoured a private company over the Defence Public Sector Unit, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or HAL. On both counts, the man who aspires to become the Prime Minister of India one day, has been economical with the truth.

History of procurement

If anything, the Congress-led UPA I and II governments need to take the blame for hollowing out the Indian Air Force (IAF) by sitting on a procurement projected as absolutely essential at the beginning of this century. The IAF first articulated the need to acquire 126 fighter jets by 2000. In nine years, the IAF said, it would have to phase out the vintage MiG-21 series of aircraft and replacement should be in place by 2010 to retain the Air Force’s combat edge against Pakistan. So the qualitative requirements were drawn up, the numbers arrived at. By 2003, Air HQ was ready to put out a tender. Yet it took four more years for the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) to accept the IAF’s demand. The Acceptance of Necessity or AON was accorded on 29 June 2007.

But thanks to the indecisiveness of two successive UPA governments, the procurements never happened. So, in seven years between 2007 and 2014, the UPA failed to clinch the deal. Neither did it arrive at any price per aircraft. Meanwhile, the IAF’s combat fleet kept dwindling at an alarming rate.

The events need a bit of a recap to put the matter in the right perspective.

Six companies--EADS from Germany, manufacturers of the Eurofighter Typhoon; Lockheed Martin (who make the F-16s) and Boeing ((F-18 aircraft) from the USA, Sweden’s SAAB (makers of Gripen); Dassault Aviation from France (the Rafale manufacturers) and Russia’s Rosoboron Export (MiG-35)--submitted their techno-commercial bids in April 2008 for what came to be known as the Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft or MMRCA tender, followed by nearly 11 months of field evaluation trial (FET) held in the heat of Rajasthan desert during peak summer months and extreme cold conditions in the high altitude zone of Ladakh.

In 2010, the evaluation committee of the IAF shortlisted two aircraft — the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale aircraft fielded by the Dassault Aviation (DA) — and forwarded the recommendation to Defence Minister AK Antony.

Procrastination

Antony took almost a year to accept the recommendation. It was already 2011.

For the next two years, negotiations certain aspects related to License Manufacture of 108 aircraft in India with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or HAL as the lead production agency could not be finalized. Major differences occurred on the aspect of Man Hours that would be required to produce the aircraft from kits in India and who would take the responsibility for the entire lot of 126 aircraft. While the French Company maintained that 31 Million Man Hours that it had proposed should be sufficient to produce 108 Rafale aircraft in India, HAL was asking for mark up of this Man Hours by 2.7 times.

This point became the bone of contention between the government and the French manufacturer.

Moreover, in the understanding of the MoD, the company that had emerged as the winner in the bid—Dassault Aviation—would have to sign a single contract with the Indian government. The French Company would then need to have back-to-back contract(s) with HAL and other Indian Production Agencies. Dassault Aviation would also be responsible for the delivery of the complete 126 aircraft to IAF and the single point responsibility for this contract rested with Dassault Aviation because the tender was issued to them.

Congress indecision

However, Dassault Aviation did not fulfil the commitment given in the first meeting and an impasse ensued on the responsibility of delivery of 108 aircraft to be manufactured in India. Another hurdle came up on the point of work share of HAL. Dassault Aviation was asked to submit a 'Responsibility Matrix', clearly defining the role and responsibility of Dassault Aviation and HAL. The `Responsibility Matrix' was to facilitate a back-to-back contract of Dassault Aviation with HAL. The CNC or Cost Negotiations Committee was not able to move the negotiations forward since the interpretation of two fundamental aspects of the case by the French Company was not in line with the original terms in the tender.
The UPA government, under the overly cautious AK Antony instead of imposing a deadline for the French manufacturer to comply with the terms of the tender, dragged its feet and allowed Dassault Aviation to get away with obfuscation. Moreover, in an unusual move, Antony instructed MoD officials to bring the file back to him after concluding the negotiations to re-examine the integrity of the process before proceeding to finalise the contract, creating confusion and doubt in the minds of the officials who were negotiating with the manufacturer.

Turning it around

Meanwhile, the Modi government took office in May 2014.

As the new political leadership was briefed about the impasse, MoD officials were told to try and break the deadlock as soon as possible since the IAF’s fleet of fighter aircraft was precariously poised. Manohar Parrikar took over as defence minister in November 2014.

As the CNC members took the matter to Parrikar he realised the process had been convoluted to such an extent that, it would have been impossible to take it forward. He, however, knew from the briefings given by the IAF, there was no time to lose in acquiring fighter jets. The number of effective squadrons was going down rapidly. The IAF leadership also told him that they were happy with Rafale’s performance and would rather have the fighter in its fleet than scout of other options.

Parrikar took the matter to the Prime Minister and briefed him about the necessity of procuring the fighters urgently. At the same time, Parrikar told Modi, it would be legally untenable to go through with the tender that was being negotiated since the process had got vitiated completely thanks to Antony’s indecisiveness and a crucial oversight in the original terms of the contract.

Under the circumstances, there was no alternative but to withdraw the original tender, Parrikar told Modi since the CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) guidelines provide that negotiations cannot be held with the competitor who has come second in the contract (L2 vendor in officialese). The only way, the then defence minister suggested, was to scrap the tender and buy a minimum number of Rafale jets off the shelf to fill a critical gap in the IAF’s inventory.

The Prime Minister agreed and decided to talk to the French President about such a possibility during his upcoming visit to Paris in April 2015. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) also gave its approval to the new proposal before Modi left for Paris on 9 April 2015.

India’s decision was announced at a joint Press Conference between Modi and then French President Francoise Hollande on 10 April 2015. Once the in-principle decision was taken, it was left to Parrikar and his team in the MoD to negotiate the eventual price for buying the 36 jets. Their confidence bolstered by the PMO, the Parrikar-led MoD drove a hard bargain with the French. But it wasn’t until another 15 months later—in September 2016-- that India finally signed the contract and got the state-of-the-art fighters at a competitive price.

Better product, cheaper price

The final negotiated price for 36 Rafale package, along with the initial consignment of weapons, Performance-based Logistics (PBL), simulators along with annual maintenance and associated equipment and services was fixed at 7,890 million Euros. In any case, officials involved in the nitty-gritty of the negotiations pointed out that the package cost of 126 MMRCA and 36 Rafale cannot be directly compared to work out per unit cost as the deliverables in the two cases were quite divergent.

The lower price apart, the Rafales that IAF will operate will have a weapon suite much superior to the ones proposed in the earlier case. They will include Air to Air weapons METEOR Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 150 Km, MICA-RF Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 80 Km and MICA-IR Close Combat Missiles with ranges more than 60 Km. The Air-Ground weapons include SCALP missiles with a range in excess of 300 Km. The induction of METEOR and SCALP missiles will provide a significant capability edge to the IAF over India’s adversaries.

The Rafale for IAF will have 13 India Specific Enhancement (ISE) capabilities which are not present in the Rafale aircraft being operated by other countries. Three capabilities pertain to Radar enhancements which will provide IAF with better long range capability. One of the specific capability being acquired is the Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) through which the IAF pilots will be able to counter many threats simultaneously. Another very significant capability enhancement sought is the ability to start and operate from 'High Altitude Airfields'.

On the second point about favouring an industrial house close to the Prime Minister, Sandeep Unnithan of India Today has clinically demolished the argument in his piece in the latest issue of India Today, titled the Rafale dogfight (https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the- ... 2018-07-27). He writes: “Documents provided by Dassault Aviation indicate the Dassault-Reliance JV is one of the 72 partnerships Dassault has forged with Indian industry. Others on the list include Snecma-HAL Aerospace for engine components, Samtel for multi-function cockpit displays, Godrej, Larsen & Toubro and Tata Advanced Systems.”

Moreover, under the Defence Procurement Policy, Dassault Aviation like any other original equipment manufacturer is free to choose its offset partners. Several private companies and not just one besides the Govt of India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will execute the offset obligations ( supply defence industrial goods, or absorb some of the technology) and NOT co-produce Rafale as described by the uninitiated.

Also as Minister of State for Defence Dr Subhash Bhamre told the Parliament earlier this year, no offset agreements in the Rafale deal have so far been communicated to the MoD. This is not unusual because, under the offset policy, vendors or OEMs are permitted to provide details of their Indian Offset Partners (IOP) either at the time of seeking offset credits or one year prior to discharge of offset obligations.

So, there was no ‘UPA price’ to compare it with an ‘NDA price,’ and two the offset contracts are yet to be finalised.

Clearly, the NDA government’s purchase of Rafale aircraft off the shelf was guided by urgent necessity and not by any other considerations. On the other hand, one must ask the question why did the UPA not show any urgency in procuring the fighter jets when national interest dictated that the IAF’s request be met forthwith? That in my view is the bigger scandal

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 31 Jul 2018 14:06

X posted from the Air force thread


The Rafale dogfight


The Rafale dogfight

Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi
July 27, 2018

© SIRPA AIR/ANTHONY JEULAND

The NDA governments 2016 purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft has turned into a political controversy and generated sound and fury in the monsoon session of Parliament, with the Congress questioning the price of the aircraft and alleging crony capitalism. The government has refused to disclose the price of the deal, citing a confidentiality clause with France and reasons of national security. The impasse continues. The full facts of the case should be known when the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) tables its report before Parliament sometime this year. Until then, here are the big questions raised about the deal and the answers, based on the best obtainable version of the truth.

NDA paid higher price for Rafale, UPA's Rafale was cheaper.

The crux of the entire controversy are allegations that the Narendra Modi government paid a higher price for the 36 Rafale fighter jets than what the UPA had agreed to pay for 126 Rafales in 2012.

The comparison is unfounded because while the NDA actually signed the deal, the UPA hadn't. What doesn't help is the fact that neither government has released the exact cost break-ups of both deals so far. The NDA hinted it had got a better deal when Prime Minister Modi sprung a surprise by announcing it during a state visit to France in April 2015. The MoU signed by Prime Minister Modi and then French president Francois Hollande in 2015 referred to the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract initiated by the Manmohan Singh government in 2004, by agreeing to conclude an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) for supply of aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway.

The UPA did not reveal the price quoted by Dassault Aviation in 2011 due to which the French warplane maker made it as L-1 or lowest bidder in January 2012. The deal was subsequently logjammed for over two years because the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and Dassault Aviation could not decide on who would take responsibility for the 108 Rafales that would be manufactured under licence in India-HAL or Dassault.

The mammoth price tag possibly also induced a certain amount of purchase anxiety. When the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had approved the deal in 2007, the MoD envisaged an outgo of $10 billion (Rs 39,000 crore) for the 126 aircraft. This figure was clearly unrealistic as the contract progressed.

Defence analyst Nitin Gokhale's book Securing India the Modi Way mentions that the MoD had, in 2011, benchmarked the total cost of acquisition at Rs 163,403 crore (approximately 23 billion the MoD's entire defence budget for that year).

Going by this figure, the 126 Rafales would have a flyaway cost of Rs 1,296 crore per aircraft. But this total cost of acquisition, as Gokhale adds, was different from the total cost of deliverables in the 126 MMRCA contract, which was benchmarked by the MoD at Rs 69,456 crore, excluding the offset loading cost, estimated to be anywhere between Rs 2,530 crore and Rs 5,060 crore.

The HAL-MoD-Dassault impasse continued even as the NDA assumed office in 2014. In 2015, the government decided to scrap the deal and go for a fresh government-to-government or G2G deal, opting for a smaller number of aircraft because of budgetary reasons. We asked the IAF what was the minimum number of Rafales they needed to meet their combat requirement; 36 is the number they came back to us with, says a senior government official. The Modi government went in for a G2G deal as an emergency procurement. G2G deals are inherently favoured for a variety of reasons because they shorten procurement cycles and cement strategic partnerships. The NDA-1 government signed the massive Su-30MKI deal to import and licence-produce 140 Su-30MKIs from Russia for Rs 22,000 crore in 2000. The UPA signed G2G deals worth over $10 billion with the US for maritime patrol aircraft and heavy lift aircraft between 2006 and 2012.

Off-the-record briefings by the MoD soon after the contract for 36 Rafales was inked in 2016 indicated that a price of 7.8 billion (Rs 59,000 crore) was agreed upon for the 36 aircraft5 billion for the aircraft and 2.85 billion for its weapons and certain India-specific enhancements.

The weapons included Meteor air-to-air missiles and SCALP air-to-ground cruise missiles worth 700 million that were not part of the original MMRCA contract. These India-specific enhancements, one senior government official said in another off-the-record briefing, came at the request of the IAF and were meant to ensure optimal utilisation of a lesser number of Rafales. They included spare parts and performance-based logistics under which the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) would ensure that the aircraft would be available 75 per cent of the time, and hence able to generate more sorties. It would mean the two Rafale squadrons would be equal to 3.5 squadrons of the IAF's current mainstay, the Su-30MKIs (which have an availability of only 55 per cent). On March 12 this year, minister of state for defence Subhash Bhamre mentioned a ballpark figure of Rs 670 crore for each Rafale minus the associated equipment, weapons, India-specific enhancements, maintenance support and services. The full facts would be revealed only in the CAG report.

Confidentiality clause prevents disclosure of price of the aircraft deal.

At a press conference on November 17 last year, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman said that the price negotiated by the NDA was much lower than the price negotiated by the UPA when Rafale was found to be L-1. She said that her office would reveal the price later.

But in March, Sitharaman told the Rajya Sabha that as per Article 10 of the IGA between the Government of India and Government of France on the purchase of Rafale aircraft, the protection of the classified information and material exchanged under IGA is governed by the provisions of the security agreement signed between the two nations in 2008. On July 20, Congress president Rahul Gandhi alleged that Sitharaman had lied to Parliament at PM Modi's behest and that the president of France had told him there was no secrecy pact with France.

His statement drew an unusual response from Frances foreign ministry, drawing attention to the 2008 security agreement which legally binds the two states to protect the classified information provided by the partner, that could impact security and operational capabilities of the defence equipment of India or France, the ministry said.

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman and Rahul Gandhi during the no-confidence motion debate in Lok Sabha on July 20
The deal has two aspects, commercial and technical, weapons and the capabilities of the aircraft and what it cost the nation. While technical capabilities of the aircraft could be deemed classified from the point of national security, there is nothing that prevents the government from disclosing the commercial aspects of the contract to Parliament. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence, which comprises representatives of all political parties, routinely receives briefings on sensitive matters of national security from the armed forces, government agencies and the defence ministry. This, in fact, was hinted at by French President Emmanuel Macron in an interview to India today on March 7, 2018. There are some discussions to be organised by the Indian government and they will have to consider which details they will want to be revealed to the opposition and to the Parliament, he said. In other words, it was up to the Indian government to decide what it wanted to discuss with Parliament.

Reliance got to make the aircraft instead of public sector HAL

In his statement in the Lok Sabha on July 20, Congress president Rahul Gandhi said that the Rafale deal has been taken away from HAL and given to a businessman who has benefitted Rs 45,000 crore. The gentleman has never built an aeroplane in his whole life. There is no proposal for Rafale to build the aircraft locally as these are being procured off-the-shelf. What the Congress president was referring to is the offset plan under which Dassault Aviation is to partner with Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence to reinvest 50 per cent of the 36 Rafale deal from partners in Indian industry.

Introduced in 2007, defence offsets are where an OEM has to source between 30 and 50 per cent of the value of a defence contract from the Indian market. In the case of the 36 Rafales, Dassault Aviation has to procure nearly Rs 30,000 crore worth of components and services from Indian industry.

Documents provided by Dassault Aviation indicate the Dassault-Reliance JV is one of the 72 partnerships Dassault has forged with Indian industry. Others on the list include Snecma-HAL Aerospace for engine components, Samtel for multi-function cockpit displays, Godrej, Larsen & Toubro and Tata Advanced Systems.

On October 27, 2017, Anil Ambani and Dassault CEO Eric Trappier laid the foundation stone for a new facility to produce parts of the Falcon business jets under Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL), a 51:49 joint venture between Dassault and Reliance Defence. The facility started commercial production of Dassault's Falcon business jet cockpits in April this year.

The MoDs Defence Procurement Policy leaves the choice of offset partner to the OEM. No offset agreements in the Rafale deal have so far been communicated to the MoD. This is not unusual because under the offset policy, vendors or OEMs are permitted to provide details of their Indian Offset Partners (IOP) either at the time of seeking offset credits or one year prior to discharge of offset obligations, Bhamre told Parliament in March this year.

Procedures bypassed, CCS approval not taken

The Defence Procurement Procedure, which governs all MoD capital acquisitions, mandates that all deals over Rs 3,000 crore be approved by the CCS. The CCS is chaired by the prime minister and includes the cabinet ministers for home, defence, finance and external affairs. It is India's topmost decision-making body for national security. In the case of the 36 Rafales, the deal was announced by Prime Minister Modi in France and inked in an MoU in April 2015. CCS approval for the deal came only on August 24, 2016, or 16 months after the MoU in Paris and exactly a month before the deal was finally signed by French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his counterpart Manohar Parrikar in New Delhi on September 23, 2016.

However, Paragraph 71 of the DPP, which covers IGA's, mentions occasions when procurements would have to be done from friendly foreign countries, which may be necessitated due to geostrategic advantages that are likely to accrue to our country. Such procurements would not classically follow the Standard Procurement Procedure and the Standard Contract Document, but would be based on mutually agreed provisions by the governments of both the countries. Such procurements will be done based on an IGA after clearance from the CFA (Competent Financial Authority). The CFA in this case is the CCS. But here again, the government seems to be in the clear.

What was announced in April 2015 was only an intent to buy an aircraft. Intentions to buy do not require a formal clearance by the CCS. It is only an IGA, which needs to be cleared and in this case, it was approved a month before the deal was signed in September 2016, says Amit Cowshish, former financial advisor (acquisitions) in the MoD. For how much, we don't know for yet. With the government now hardening its stance and dogged about not revealing this price, it is left to the CAG to reveal the truth about the Rafale deal.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 02:10

What is so special about Rafale Fighter Jet? Here's the lowdown
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 072353.cms

India in September 2016 inked a direct deal with the French government to purchase 36 new Rafale fighter jets in a 7.87 billion euro deal that is likely to bring major work to the Indian private sector in terms of offsets under the make in India policy. The Rafale deal for 36 jets includes over 3 billion euros of work for the Indian industry over the next 7-8 years according to top defence ministry officials. "This has a huge potential to develop direct and indirect employment opportunities in India," the official said. Besides high end technology like engine know-how, major structural assembly is also likely in India, besides a chunk of avionics work. India will also get latest weapons like the Meteor and Scalp missiles as part of the contract, besides a 5 year support package that assures high availability of the fighter. India will pay a 15 % advance and deliveries are to start in three years.

The deal was inked after negotiations that last close to 18 months, with Indian negotiators finally bringing down the price by 328 million euros. In November 2017, Congress alleged a 'huge scam’ in Rafale fighter jets deal. Saying that the contract violated the procurement procedure, the Congress party blamed the government for promoting of 'crony capitalist friends’ at the cost of a defence public sector unit, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Congress alleged that the deal signed with France does not cater for technology transfer and has caused an 'insurmountable' loss to the exchequer. The Rafale deal has a 50 percent offset clause, a large part of which is to be executed by a joint venture company of the Anil Ambani owned Reliance Defence.

India Specific Enhancements

The Rafale deal caters to specific Indian air force needs. The fighter jet will be modified by France to meet the following:

* Helmet mounted sights and targeting system to give the pilots lightening quick ability to shoot off weapons.
* Ability to taken off from high altitude airbases like Leh on a 'cold start' - for quick reaction deployment
* A radar warning receiver to identify hostile tracking systems
* A towed decoy system to thwart incoming missile attacks
* French industrial support for fighter for 50 years

VITAL Stats:

* €7.87 billion: Deal cost. This includes weapon systems, five year support, training, infrastructure and warranties. 15% to be paid in advance.
* €91.7 million euros: as per contract, if other costs like weapons, training etc not counted, per unit price of single seat Rafale is €91.7 million euros.
* 75 % availability: French side will ensure that at any given point, at least 75 percent of the fleet is combat worthy. Failing which, heavy penalities to be invoked.
* 67 months delivery: All aircraft ordered to be delivered within 67 months with first one coming in by 36 months.
* 50% offsets: Indian industry to get major boost as French side will invest half of deal value in Make in India products or technology transfer. Indian Partners to be firmed up within a year.
* €328 million: Saved by negotiation efforts by the Indian side on the Rafale deal, according to defence ministry sources
* 28/8: according to deal, India to get 28 single seater jets and 8 twin seaters for training.

The Rafale will be India's most capable fighter aircraft. These, according to defence ministry officials, are the major capability differences it will make compared to the current best - the SU 30 MKI.

Loitering Capability

* 1.5 times of Su 30
* Range is 780-1055 km vs 400-550 of Su-30 (on internal fuel? That cannot be true!)
* 5 sorties per 24 hours against 3 by Su-30
* 75% availability against 55% of Su-30

WEAPONS: India has managed to negotiate the acquisition of the latest weapons package for the Rafale. These are the new weapons, beyond the standard package.

SCALP: a precision long range ground attack missile that can take out targets with extreme accuracy. Has a range of 300 km, capped by the missile technology control regime.

METEOR: a beyond visual range air to air missile that is possibly the best in its class. Can take out enemy aircraft at range of over 100 km.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Chinmay » 01 Aug 2018 08:03

Rakesh saar, those range numbers are to be taken with a handful of salt. Also, availability is dependent upon funds and since we are paying for 75% availability, it will be so. If we are willing to spare the cash for the Sukhois, then I believe their availability rates could be increased as well.

The other odd thing that struck me was that Rafale does not have a RWR? We paid for it to be added?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Aug 2018 08:22

^ yes, its all over the BS monitor. Range is more than the MKI, yeah right - with what kind of load and fuel carriage I wonder.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 01 Aug 2018 12:20

I though Helmet Mounted Sight was a part of the '"original" Rafale.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby souravB » 01 Aug 2018 14:03

^Rakesh Sir, You forgot the most important component of Rafale which makes it a lethal first strike platform, the SPECTRA ECCM suite and the corresponding active stealth features it brings.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 01 Aug 2018 14:44

souravB wrote:^Rakesh Sir, You forgot the most important component of Rafale which makes it a lethal first strike platform, the SPECTRA ECCM suite and the corresponding active stealth features it brings.
:D :D :D


Would we HAVE to use Damocles pod or is it "Indian modified" for Lightning 4 ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby souravB » 01 Aug 2018 15:02

I think this kind of information perfectly exemplifies what GoI is fighting to keep under the secrecy act. but a quick search get me a link where people are talking about it.
Litening Integration on Rafale
Confirmation will come once the birds start its operational roles and definitely pictures will follow.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 02 Aug 2018 18:55

Are we to assume all G2G deals are kick back free ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 02 Aug 2018 18:55

France could replace US parts in SCALP missile to circumvent ITAR restrictions for Egypt, but at some delay

https://www.janes.com/article/82147/fra ... some-delay

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Pratyush » 02 Aug 2018 22:04

Austin wrote:Are we to assume all G2G deals are kick back free ?



Who is paying a bribe to whom?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 03 Aug 2018 00:21

Selection committee.

P.S. I am not pointing any fingers. In my eyes, MMRCA selection was clean. I don't agree with the choice given our finances.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Aug 2018 02:22

IR, after the down select....only the Rafale and Typhoon were left. Since the MMRCA selection was clean, either one - Rafale or Typhoon - would have been expensive. What other choice was there?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 03 Aug 2018 09:33

Rafale is not expensive we just don’t spend enough on defense.

If we spend even 2.5% of our gdp on defense, Rafale will be affordable. Indian gdp in dollar terms is bigger or atleast as big as France but growing three times as fast. We can afford good stuff....

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 03 Aug 2018 09:34

Rafale is not expensive we just don’t spend enough on defense.

If we spend even 2.5% of our gdp on defense, Rafale will be affordable. Indian gdp in dollar terms is bigger or atleast as big as France but growing three times as fast. We can afford good stuff....

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Aug 2018 09:41

Pratyush wrote:
Austin wrote:Are we to assume all G2G deals are kick back free ?



Who is paying a bribe to whom?


Government paying bribe to another Government ?

If Private companies can bribe the government official why cant government bribe the same way ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 03 Aug 2018 10:24

Now that is new, fresh and original thought Austin!!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 03 Aug 2018 10:51

Rakesh wrote:IR, after the down select....only the Rafale and Typhoon were left. Since the MMRCA selection was clean, either one - Rafale or Typhoon - would have been expensive. What other choice was there?

As I said earlier, I think MMRCA selection was clean. But, there is a saying, jitna bada chaddar, utna hi paer badhana chahiye. Our MMRCA selection was not based on that principle.

Katare sahab, Rafale is not expensive? It is one of the three most expensive fighters built in the history of mankind, the most expensive in production right now.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 03 Aug 2018 11:20

Austin wrote:
Pratyush wrote:

Who is paying a bribe to whom?


Government paying bribe to another Government ?

If Private companies can bribe the government official why cant government bribe the same way ?


Austin,

Several years ago an ex KGB Russian officer said that Soviets had paid heavily to Indian powers-that-be to secure the defence orders.

So the US govt may have paid kickbacks to Indian govt just as the ex KGB officer claims Soviets paid kickbacks to Indian govt

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Aug 2018 11:45

Austin wrote:
Pratyush wrote:

Who is paying a bribe to whom?


Government paying bribe to another Government ?

If Private companies can bribe the government official why cant government bribe the same way ?

Just look at the Saudi typhoon deal scandal and one realizes that g2g is no different grim b2b or one can always watch a few episodes of yes minister :D

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kersi » 03 Aug 2018 14:25

Cain Marko wrote:
Austin wrote:
Government paying bribe to another Government ?

If Private companies can bribe the government official why cant government bribe the same way ?

Just look at the Saudi typhoon deal scandal and one realizes that g2g is no different grim b2b or one can always watch a few episodes of yes minister :D


NOT NEW

Way back in 19960-70s, Saudi officials were bribed to buy F 5, but I think the Northrop officials were responsible. Similarly in Europe the Dutch "Royal Family" was said to be the recipient. So also a German defence minister was accused for taking bribes to buy F 104 for Luftwaffe. Incidentely the same minister's son died in a F 104 crash. OTT The F 104 were originaly dubbed as "flying coffins" and "widow makers", a term used for MiG 21 by our DDM


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