VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Singha
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2018 14:40

the vast sums of defence aid that US gives to israel, egypt et al are paid from GOTUS -> OEMs while reciepients get the kit and pay for services later.

its in effect a direct subsidy to its industry, something they like to complain about airbus

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 03 Aug 2018 22:45

Indranil wrote:
Rakesh wrote:IR, after the down select....only the Rafale and Typhoon were left. Since the MMRCA selection was clean, either one - Rafale or Typhoon - would have been expensive. What other choice was there?

As I said earlier, I think MMRCA selection was clean. But, there is a saying, jitna bada chaddar, utna hi paer badhana chahiye. Our MMRCA selection was not based on that principle.

Katare sahab, Rafale is not expensive? It is one of the three most expensive fighters built in the history of mankind, the most expensive in production right now.


Rafael has only one counterpart in Typhoon today and since Rafael was L1 in Indian competition so from that pov it is not the expensive one.

Similar things were said about the mirage 2k, several decades back. We all know A well made product costs more upfront but it turns out much cheaper and more useful in longer terms. The cost of ~$100m/ aircraft is pretty standard today. Even smalles LCA mk2 may endup costing close to $80-100M/aircraft.

In front of half cooked Russian products everything looks expensive but that is not a good comparison in my opinion. It takes years if not decades to get those cheap Russian products at required/promised working standards. That is hidden cost which makes them look cheaper.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2018 23:11

The Typhoon has great promise but is nowhere near the same level of maturity as the Rafale in terms of sensor maturity, sensor fusion, integrated weapons. Its a great hot rod though, and has a bigger nose than the Rafale, theoretically more capable against future LO threats.
But as a package, the Rafale is exceptional. It brings F-22/F-35 levels of sensor fusion with the bomb truck capability of a F-15.
The French scored a home run with the aircraft, only that the F-35 will surpass it in LO and hence the window for exports is shrinking.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2018 23:24

the parts are tight and classy looking. should be durable.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2018 23:35

Just shows the level of investment the French put into their tech and how its paid off. See the small size of the Rafale radar above and yet it matches that of previous gen heavies with much larger radars.
Ultra-compact packaging to the max.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Aug 2018 23:51

I read in older afm mag that in NATO exercise typhoon had turned better of in air superiority role and equal in multirole. But rafale has better EW capability and radar

Typhoon aerodynamically are probably the best flying today barring none and it can Supercruise at mach 1.2 using A2A payload

But Being a multinational program the French have far better ability to grease palms than Europeans put together can do.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 04 Aug 2018 00:01

AFM was nothing but a Typhoon PR mag, thanks to some of its contributors like J Lake.
A better eval of dated "versus" capability, was the Swisss eval, the Rafale was far ahead of the EF, and TBH, the EF maturity is still suspect.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 04 Aug 2018 01:22

Singha wrote:the parts are tight and classy looking. should be durable.

That is a not a video of Indian Rafales being manufactured. That is for the French Air Force onlee.

But yes, the fit & finish of French products are superb.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 04 Aug 2018 02:11

I see IAF logo on it

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 04 Aug 2018 03:31

Roundel of the French Air Force, not IAF.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 04 Aug 2018 09:27

There is a better film on amazon prime called rafale top secret fighter that shows the manufacturing and background stem work in depth including cnc machines, catia and vr tool used in design

Very impressive

Shows the main rafale base in st dizier incl outskirt of its tightly guarded nuclear weapons area. Garud types with dogs patrol it 24x7

Its a well honed fighting machine not just a sports car

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 04 Aug 2018 09:45

Karan M wrote:Just shows the level of investment the French put into their tech and how its paid off. See the small size of the Rafale radar above and yet it matches that of previous gen heavies with much larger radars.
Ultra-compact packaging to the max.


There is one other country that does better packaging by far and that is Israel.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 04 Aug 2018 11:02

They did downsize the RBE2 for Tejas. Did we end up for Mk-1? Israel won?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 05 Aug 2018 03:40

Cain Marko wrote:^ yes, its all over the BS monitor. Range is more than the MKI, yeah right - with what kind of load and fuel carriage I wonder.


Actually it is correct as per the discussion in the attached video.
The points raised by IAF air marshal were-

1) Rafael has 1.5x action radius (whatever that means) of Su30MKI
2) 2000KM ferry range
2) Rafael has highest ratio (2.5x) of empty weight (10ton) to all up weight (24.5 ton)of any aircraft in the world including transport aircrafts
3) Rafael is rated at planned 5 sorties a day minimum while Standard IAF planned sortie rate is 3 sorties/day.
4) Meteor range 180km, no escame range in head on mode of 150km
5) SCALP has range of 300km, accuracy of 3 meter and payload of massive 1200kg.
6) It’ll have strategic (nuclear) impact

Basically with 2 squadrons, we’ll get combat capability of 4 squadrons due to much higher range, sorti rate, serviceability rates, maturity of plateform and strong after sales support.

MKI needs super 30 upgrades soon, new boss is coming to town next year. Anyhow MKI will remain our main workhorse for next two decades, Rafael can only act as spear tip with these numbers.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IPJDtKgEc6E

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 04:45

Katare, nice video. I am still unsure about the Rafale range vs the Su-30MKI range.

But since the Air Marshal has said it, I will defer to him.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 05 Aug 2018 04:58

It was pretty surprising to me too admiral saar, but again he used a term “radius of action” without quite qualifying it so not sure what it means.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 05 Aug 2018 11:10

Is that Range in Internal Fuel for both ? Or is this with Rafale using External Drop Tanks and Internal fuel ?

Are they assuming same flight profile and weapons load ? A lot of factors can affect range of an aircraft.

A 4 Drop Tank 1200/2000lb Mirage with full internal fuel with 1 x 1000 kg LGB will end up having more range than MKI or Rafle using just internal fuel for the same mission.

here is official MKI Range figures

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 05 Aug 2018 13:53

Katare wrote:I see IAF logo on it


what is that 2:32
https://youtu.be/Gmyt0aUsdWc?t=153

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby RajD » 05 Aug 2018 15:33

@Katareji,
That logo belongs to the French airforce. Its Red, white and blue concentric rings. The IAF logo is orange(keshari) on the outer most ring followed by white in the middle with green in the center.
Regards

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 19:10

Katare-ji...please see both roundels below. Although the distinction below is very clear, in photographs (and videos) depending on time of day, hue, lighting, camera lens, etc, etc, etc...both roundels can look similar.

Indian Air Force Roundel

Image





French Air Force Roundel

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Aug 2018 19:21

chetak wrote:
Karan M wrote:Just shows the level of investment the French put into their tech and how its paid off. See the small size of the Rafale radar above and yet it matches that of previous gen heavies with much larger radars.
Ultra-compact packaging to the max.


There is one other country that does better packaging by far and that is Israel.


I am not too sure of that anymore. They are fairly equivalent. The French investments in automated design tools, workforce, precision manufacturing and their overall electronics manufacturing industry (see UMS for instance) have meant their systems are very capable. No surprise then that we worked the LRTR with Israel and the MFCR from France.
In platform level capabilities, the French are far ahead - they make everything from submarines, to arty, to aircraft to munitions. Their depth of heavy industry is ahead of Israel.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 05 Aug 2018 19:45

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:
There is one other country that does better packaging by far and that is Israel.


I am not too sure of that anymore. They are fairly equivalent. The French investments in automated design tools, workforce, precision manufacturing and their overall electronics manufacturing industry (see UMS for instance) have meant their systems are very capable. No surprise then that we worked the LRTR with Israel and the MFCR from France.
In platform level capabilities, the French are far ahead - they make everything from submarines, to arty, to aircraft to munitions. Their depth of heavy industry is ahead of Israel.


Per the israelis, the packaging is more an art and not so much as engineering.

Even there, all are not equally accomplished and it is the russian jews who by far excel at this art.

Be that as it may, let us agree to disagree.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 05 Aug 2018 21:53

Thanks guys! Is there any other airforce besides IAF and French AF that uses these roundels? What is the significance of painting a symbol that looks like a target on once’s own assets.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby souravB » 05 Aug 2018 22:30

Katareji, it is a vestige from Royal Air Force.
Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 05 Aug 2018 23:45

chetak wrote:
Per the israelis, the packaging is more an art and not so much as engineering.

Even there, all are not equally accomplished and it is the russian jews who by far excel at this art.

Be that as it may, let us agree to disagree.

If there was any doubt about you being a Navy man, this settles it (people who interact with Navy aviation or radar folks will understand).

By the way, I agree with you on this.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 05 Aug 2018 23:48

Rafale is a wonderful aircraft. Very refined over generations starting with the originally Mirage, that’s four generations at least. Having said that some of the capabilities being touted here, on news channels, by sources and now an AM (no less) are physics bending.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Aug 2018 23:53

From the radar perspective, the Thales MFCR we used for the BMD was actually ahead of the Elta LRTR.

These stereotypes, while entertaining, are often misleading (IMHO).

India has a habit of cherrypicking the best items it can get from the open market.

We combine Israeli HUD and Israeli jammers with French MFD and RLG-INS on our fighters.

Clearly, both sides have mastered ultra-compact packaging.

Consider the IAF's latest procurements.

LLTRs - Thales GSM-100 from France (complemented by Indian units)
LLLWR - Elta units from Israel (complemented by Indian units)

The Rafale itself is a masterpiece of compact engineering.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Aug 2018 23:55

Indranil wrote:Rafale is a wonderful aircraft. Very refined over generations starting with the originally Mirage, that’s four generations at least. Having said that some of the capabilities being touted here, on news channels, by sources and now an AM (no less) are physics bending.


Context matters and these TV debates all drop that. Su-30 can't have external fuel tanks. Rafale can field them. Using a combination of external tanks and internal fuel, Rafale can exceed Su-30 ROA.
Similarly, the Meteor's RMax can be 200km. Its NEZ against a non maneuvering target can be high as well. The actual ranges against a maneuvering fighter will be much lesser.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 06 Aug 2018 07:35

Kinemetics NEZ claim of 150 km for Meteor is ridiculious , the nez of python-5 and derby-er which have more sophisticated sensor and manoiveribility does not exceed 30km against a manouvverable fighter

The 150 km nez would be against non manouvering target like cruise missile or helicopter

Wasn’t Air Marshal Masand the same guy who commanded the mirage squadron at Gwalior in 80s ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 06 Aug 2018 07:51

Quick numeric analysis-
MKI is 80% heavier than Rafale when empty - 10t to 18 ton
MKI lifts 55% more in all up weight than Rafale - 24.5 t to 38 ton
MKI lifts 38% more payload (fuel+weapons) than Rafael - 14.5 tons to 20 tons

So MKI lugs around 2.5 tons on extra dead body weight as compared to Rafale standard. In other words if the airframe was composit and refined like Rafale it would weigh empty at 15.5tons.

That translates to 13.88% aditional dead weight on MKI. Assuming, without any supporting data, that french engines would be 10% more efficient than 1990s designed AL engines and Rafael aerodynamics provide 10% lower drag one could kinda see how Rafale can out range MKIs with their 5 wet pylons in some configurations but would that be efficient use of the plane remains questionable.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 06 Aug 2018 07:54

Austin wrote:Kinemetics NEZ claim of 150 km for Meteor is ridiculious , the nez of python-5 and derby-er which have more sophisticated sensor and manoiveribility does not exceed 30km against a manouvverable fighter

The 150 km nez would be against non manouvering target like cruise missile or helicopter

Wasn’t Air Marshal Masand the same guy who commanded the mirage squadron at Gwalior in 80s ?


You may be right by curious as to what is the basis of claiming that python and derby-ER are more sophisticated?

MBDA website claims that Meteor has no escape zone of “many times” of current MRAAMs.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 06 Aug 2018 08:47

Against which type of target manouvering or non manouvering ? If it is non manouvering then I can believe it

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Aug 2018 09:18

Btw, these rafales are being compared with the MKI that was inducted 20 years ago, let us see how much of this holds true after the MKI is upgraded, which would be a better Com parison. For instance, if the MKI is plumbed to carry 2000 liter efts like the su35, I doubt range would be anywhere near comparable. The 35 is supposed to have a range of 4500km with 2 x eft.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 06 Aug 2018 10:08

That’s exactly the point. Even after su-30 is filled to brim with fuel, it can take its full complement of weapon load. What kind of weapon load can Rafale take at this range?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby abhik » 06 Aug 2018 10:31

Till date I haven't seen rafale with more than 3.x t of payload (excluding fuel), while there are videos of MKI dropping twice as much bombs.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Aug 2018 10:56

Austin wrote:Wasn’t Air Marshal Masand the same guy who commanded the mirage squadron at Gwalior in 80s ?

Air Marshal Harish Masand was a MiG-29 pilot. He wrote an article of his experiences of the MiG-29 vis-a-viv with the Mirage 2000 in an aviation magazine. He states that while the M2K had a beautiful fit & finish unlike the MiG-29, the latter out manoeuvred the former in every mock dogfight between the two birds. A very interesting article and I can no longer find it on the web. Wg Cdr Ramesh “Joe” Bakshi was his counterpart from the M2K squadron. Sadly Wg Cdr Bakshi was killed during an IAF Day event (Oct 08th) sometime in the late 80s. He was performing manoeuvres at the event - in a M2K - when he made a critical error and paid for it with his life.

Eyewitness account of Indian Air Force aerobatics tragedy
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/indi ... 1989-10-31

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby tsarkar » 06 Aug 2018 11:51

Katare wrote:What is the significance of painting a symbol that looks like a target on once’s own assets.

A round symbol looks the same from any aspect and any angle making recognition easier during dogfights with planes maneuvering like crazy and incorrect identification having fatal consequences. A lot of operational experience goes into military matters - nothing happens by chance.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish Jain » 06 Aug 2018 15:45

Any french speakers here? Apparently latest Dassault mag has a special on Indian Rafales here -

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1by-5BD ... L7FEG/view

Courtesy Halloween on key publishing forum.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 06 Aug 2018 17:51

Katare wrote:Quick numeric analysis-
MKI is 80% heavier than Rafale when empty - 10t to 18 ton
MKI lifts 55% more in all up weight than Rafale - 24.5 t to 38 ton
MKI lifts 38% more payload (fuel+weapons) than Rafael - 14.5 tons to 20 tons

So MKI lugs around 2.5 tons on extra dead body weight as compared to Rafale standard. In other words if the airframe was composit and refined like Rafale it would weigh empty at 15.5tons.

That translates to 13.88% aditional dead weight on MKI. Assuming, without any supporting data, that french engines would be 10% more efficient than 1990s designed AL engines and Rafael aerodynamics provide 10% lower drag one could kinda see how Rafale can out range MKIs with their 5 wet pylons in some configurations but would that be efficient use of the plane remains questionable.



Katare ji,

if I am not wrong, i seem to have read somewhere that russki airframe designs, especially the newer ones, have much more internal fuel carrying capacity, when compared to their western counterparts.


There was even a move some time ago by some amerikis to import russki airframes (flanker??) and fit them out with the entire western suite of engines and all avionics.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 06 Aug 2018 17:57

Indranil wrote:
chetak wrote:
Per the israelis, the packaging is more an art and not so much as engineering.

Even there, all are not equally accomplished and it is the russian jews who by far excel at this art.

Be that as it may, let us agree to disagree.

If there was any doubt about you being a Navy man, this settles it (people who interact with Navy aviation or radar folks will understand).

By the way, I agree with you on this.


:)


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