Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3704
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2017 04:43

Ordnance Factory Board working on self-sufficiency in Design, R&D
http://thehitavada.com/Encyc/2017/9/7/O ... ,-R-D.aspx

A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1113
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby A Sharma » 17 Sep 2017 05:28


Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5672
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 17 Sep 2017 20:47

A Sharma wrote:Creeping privatisation

That was a great article. Who is the reporter/author?

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5004
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 17 Sep 2017 21:56

Ravi Sharma

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2017 23:24

That Frontline quotes the Trade Union leader as some expert. He is part of the problem. Parrikar assured they don't privatize if Productivity improves.
Nothing happened. Still same bs.

OFB is a protected monopoly.
Acting like they are restricted by everybody from showing their non existent talents.

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5004
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 17 Sep 2017 23:37

At the Engine Factory, Avadi, officers are aghast at the fact that while the Army screams about delays in the delivery of engines for the battle tanks in their arsenal, it does not understand the modalities of the manufacturing process. Explained an official: “The Army’s orders are inconsistent. Take the case of the V-46 engine manufactured for the T-72 battle tank. In 2007, the Army wanted 111 engines, in 2008 it wanted 170, in 2009 it wanted 317 and in 2010, 71. No orders were placed in 2011 and 2012. In 2013, the Army wanted 418 and in 2016, it ordered 257. There is no continuity in the requirement and planning. How do we plan? It takes six months just to get quotations from the Russian OEM for spares. We need to order and then they will supply the spares. That is why it takes two years to deliver an engine. At meetings in the Ministry, Army officers do not address issues such as better planning; rather, they railroad the agenda using the emotional line that troops are at risk and are being killed. All we are saying is place the indent in time and with advance planning, we will deliver.”


I dont believe that privatisation is a sure shot way of fixing problems. This article does present views from both sides. Blood sucking unions aside, India does need OFB kind of institutions. Majority in private hands like in USA is not a good idea.

As much as people here try to present armed forces as angels who can do nothing wrong or make no mistakes, fact remains that both parties need reform. OFB needs to sort out its unions and armed forces need to learn how manufacturing works.

[img]
http://www.frontline.in/multimedia/dyna ... 98739g.jpg[/img]

This BMP has a canon and NBC sensors ?

nam
BRFite
Posts: 464
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 18 Sep 2017 02:13

The comments in the article by the Union leader is fascinating.

He says private companies put profits before nation. And in the same breath he say GOI should buy blankets from OFB, because it will effect 20k jobs.

Companies working for their profit is bad, but people holding the nation hostage for their personal profit is perfectly fine!

There was also a curious comment on wheeled APC plans. He says tata is charging 32 crores, in world market it is 15 crore and OFB makes tracked for 6 crore. Very nicely he compares a under development product with probably international APC already in production and BMP2 with outdated armor, already produced in thousands.

OFB does not work for profit, however it's employee do. To be precise they work only during overtime.

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1076
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 18 Sep 2017 02:34

jamwal wrote:
[img]
http://www.frontline.in/multimedia/dyna ... 98739g.jpg[/img]

This BMP has a canon and NBC sensors ?


Thats the CBRN Reconnaissance Vehicle
Image

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5004
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 18 Sep 2017 08:51

Thanks, i was confusing it with Muntra

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4998
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Viv S » 18 Sep 2017 09:31

A Sharma wrote:Creeping privatisation

Said Srikumar: “We are against corporatisation. Corporatisation is just a step away from privatisation. Five successive Defence Ministers have said that there will not be any corporatisation of the OFB.”

And this is where he reveals himself as a spokesman for leeches. Has HAL or BEL been privatised? At most, the govt has offloaded a minority stake in a handful of PSUs to raise capital but the companies have remained govt managed. Save your threats, dharnas & strikes for when a privatization proposal is actually tabled.

The MoD should go ahead and corporatize OFB, give it the 'level playing field' & autonomy they're asking for and let them demonstrate how lean & agile they really are. The numbers will show what their no-profit-patriotism is actually costing the taxpayer.

Of course, that can't happen while OFB's monopoly allows them to hold the nation hostage with the threat of a national strike. The MoD's playing it pretty cool too (props to the govt for that) - diversify the supplier base with a liberal licensing policy, let the pvt sector build up critical mass and then when push comes to shove the OFB lot aren't going to have the stomach for a confrontation, knowing that by shutting shop they'll just lose more business to the competition.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2017 09:25

OFB India website is down.
Maybe in for major change with new Minister?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2017 19:31

No such luck. They are back up though.
:(

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2017 00:08

PDF to CAG on Ammo issues in IA: from OFB to IA depots

Very sad and everyone knows the problem but no action to rectify.

RM has to break some heads in all parties.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 104
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 30 Sep 2017 11:32

Some organizational reasons why OFB cannot be reformed.

OFB is very hard to reform because they have a very organized cadre both at worker level and at officer level. I have mentioned the Indian Ordinance Factory Service also called IAS (OFB). They will simply go to courts if they are touched. The government needs to have a solid appetite for reform and be willing to lose a few votes of the unions and officers.

The first step has to be to abolish this service and the Indian Defence Service and the Indian Defense Service of Engineers and the Indian Defence Service of Accounts. Do you see that ? 3 so called IAS services just for defence ? And all pretty incompetent and corrupt. 70 pct of these roles are redundant, the rest can be filled by people hired laterally and by the defence services. That will also address a big chunk of defence services career related and military civil related complaints.

The next step is to progressively starve them of orders by giving orders to pvt sector. If some factories sit idle and workers and officers are still being paid and housed so be it. Some other factory premises can be sold to the pvt sector and the staff that pvt sector does not wnat can be paid till retirement if necessary. It will not be that expensive.

OFB cannot be reformed, it has to be dismantled.

The Railways are an example of a much larger govt commercial organization that performs much better and which is amenable to reform. A big reason that is organizational pride in what they do.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17219
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 30 Sep 2017 13:33

OFB to be dismantled? Here's a better method

Solution.Place all the defective,expired ammo produced by the OFB inside its factories along with all the workers,head honchos,etc. responsible ...Light a fuse..... Happy Diawali! :rotfl:

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby darshhan » 30 Sep 2017 14:36

Vidur wrote:Some organizational reasons why OFB cannot be reformed.

OFB is very hard to reform because they have a very organized cadre both at worker level and at officer level. I have mentioned the Indian Ordinance Factory Service also called IAS (OFB). They will simply go to courts if they are touched. The government needs to have a solid appetite for reform and be willing to lose a few votes of the unions and officers.

The first step has to be to abolish this service and the Indian Defence Service and the Indian Defense Service of Engineers and the Indian Defence Service of Accounts. Do you see that ? 3 so called IAS services just for defence ? And all pretty incompetent and corrupt. 70 pct of these roles are redundant, the rest can be filled by people hired laterally and by the defence services. That will also address a big chunk of defence services career related and military civil related complaints.

The next step is to progressively starve them of orders by giving orders to pvt sector. If some factories sit idle and workers and officers are still being paid and housed so be it. Some other factory premises can be sold to the pvt sector and the staff that pvt sector does not wnat can be paid till retirement if necessary. It will not be that expensive.

OFB cannot be reformed, it has to be dismantled.

The Railways are an example of a much larger govt commercial organization that performs much better and which is amenable to reform. A big reason that is organizational pride in what they do.


I agree. OFB cannot be changed.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Oct 2017 13:46

Vidur,
How about Govt owned, contractor operated model? For example the 155mm cluster from shell casing to explosive filling be contracted. The employees can either work for the contractor or be transferred or retrenched.
Or the uniforms factory can also be gradually closed.

Akshay Kapoor
BRFite
Posts: 1008
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Oct 2017 14:28

Ramana sir, the problem is two fold I think. One is organizational one part of which Vidur has brought out. Another part is the fact that IAS is top of apex at OFB. Chairman is always IAS. Like in all DPSU the mod babus and mantris get lots of perks from OFB. Vidur has mentioned only the allied services at nuts and bolts and forgot the big daddy IAS at the top.

The second problem is of economic incentives. The problem is that contracts given to OFB are cost plus. They even import a lot of stuff and just sell it on cost plus basis. Ownership can remain with govt but the operational ethos must change to a competitive one. That is the only solution. For that to happen we need not only massive reform at OFB but an alternative fr private sector.

I think dismantling is the only viable solution.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 104
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 01 Oct 2017 14:36

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Ramana sir, the problem is two fold I think. One is organizational one part of which Vidur has brought out. Another part is the fact that IAS is top of apex at OFB. Chairman is always IAS. Like in all DPSU the mod babus and mantris get lots of perks from OFB. Vidur has mentioned only the allied services at nuts and bolts and forgot the big daddy IAS at the top.

The second problem is of economic incentives. The problem is that contracts given to OFB are cost plus. They even import a lot of stuff and just sell it on cost plus basis. Ownership can remain with govt but the operational ethos must change to a competitive one. That is the only solution. For that to happen we need not only massive reform at OFB but an alternative fr private sector.

I think dismantling is the only viable solution.


Yes the OFB and all DPSUs do have patronage at political and policy level and that is a factor as well. That aspect is relatively easy to handle if there is will. Handling the officers and unions of OFBs is far harder.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 104
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 01 Oct 2017 14:50

ramana wrote:Vidur,
How about Govt owned, contractor operated model? For example the 155mm cluster from shell casing to explosive filling be contracted. The employees can either work for the contractor or be transferred or retrenched.
Or the uniforms factory can also be gradually closed.



Are you saying that the factories can be leased out to pvt sector, or components can be sourced from them and integrated at OFB factory, or that a the entire shell (for example) is contracted to pvt sector ? Could you explain your suggestion in more detail please.

JayS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 01 Oct 2017 17:26

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 9.html/amp

HAL to come up with IPO. I hope the money is invested in HAL itself and GOI doesnt confiscate it to fund some populist schemes. Else the whole point of ipo is lost.

vivekmehta
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 18:19
Contact:

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby vivekmehta » 01 Oct 2017 17:32

Vidur wrote:
ramana wrote:Vidur,
How about Govt owned, contractor operated model? For example the 155mm cluster from shell casing to explosive filling be contracted. The employees can either work for the contractor or be transferred or retrenched.
Or the uniforms factory can also be gradually closed.



Are you saying that the factories can be leased out to pvt sector, or components can be sourced from them and integrated at OFB factory, or that a the entire shell (for example) is contracted to pvt sector ? Could you explain your suggestion in more detail please.



Good. More like FMCG model of Co packing or Co bottling. Where infra and white coller staff is owned by third-party, but operations and critical functions like quality, procurement is handled by company peoples.

But who will take care of unions.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Oct 2017 02:21

Vidur asked:
Are you saying that the factories can be leased out to pvt sector, or components can be sourced from them and integrated at OFB factory, or that a the entire shell (for example) is contracted to pvt sector ? Could you explain your suggestion in more detail please.
---
My suggestion is to
1) have pvt party operate the ordnance factory as the investment in tools and machinery is already there. The downside is the pvt party will not to tooling upkeep and run the machinery down and get out.

2) Right now already we see that OFB is integrating components from 3rd party suppliers as seen from tenders.

3) Eventually just sell the factory to pvt sector to run, maintain and produce the weapons.

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 284
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby VKumar » 02 Oct 2017 23:20

IMHO the points made by OFB about fluctuating orders, directions etc from armed forces should be looked into. No supplier can work if he does not get plan from purchaser. More so if he has to import components.

After these problems are smoothened , we can see if OFB can meet production and quality targets, and if not, study the root cause and address the same.

If root cause analysis requires privatization as the solution, so be it.

But I am well aware of fluctuating orders by armed forces and their mal - impact on the supplier's business.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 03 Oct 2017 00:59

I think a private supplier will threaten to close the business unless they get a steady stream of orders.
Right now the ad-hoc nature of orders from feast to famine and the yearly budget process is difficult to have a steady order book. At same time they MoD needs to understand that multi-year contracts are needed for items with long lead and imports.
Giving just in time funds release doesn't help.

JayS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2017 16:17

ramana wrote:Vidur asked:
Are you saying that the factories can be leased out to pvt sector, or components can be sourced from them and integrated at OFB factory, or that a the entire shell (for example) is contracted to pvt sector ? Could you explain your suggestion in more detail please.
---
My suggestion is to
1) have pvt party operate the ordnance factory as the investment in tools and machinery is already there. The downside is the pvt party will not to tooling upkeep and run the machinery down and get out.

2) Right now already we see that OFB is integrating components from 3rd party suppliers as seen from tenders.

3) Eventually just sell the factory to pvt sector to run, maintain and produce the weapons.


I think they need to start by making it corporation or similar such autonomous body and detach it from MoD and make it a non-government entity, in strict sense. There would be less resistance to this transition as there are precedences for ex Security press and Mint board. No one remains government employee. No direct interference in administration by MoD officers. Industrialists can be set on the BoG to give direction. OFBs are too important to simply kill off like HMT. Replicating the capability would be impossible in pvt sector in short term. Privatization of any sort would be opposed vehemently and I don't see GOI has will power to go through it. Once the detachment happens its easier to privatize them later.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 104
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 04 Oct 2017 21:55

ramana wrote:Vidur asked:
Are you saying that the factories can be leased out to pvt sector, or components can be sourced from them and integrated at OFB factory, or that a the entire shell (for example) is contracted to pvt sector ? Could you explain your suggestion in more detail please.
---
My suggestion is to
1) have pvt party operate the ordnance factory as the investment in tools and machinery is already there. The downside is the pvt party will not to tooling upkeep and run the machinery down and get out.

2) Right now already we see that OFB is integrating components from 3rd party suppliers as seen from tenders.

3) Eventually just sell the factory to pvt sector to run, maintain and produce the weapons.


I think this is a good suggestion because the problem is not infrastructure or resources it is organization of resources - incentives, cost plus guaranteed contracts, management practices. Competition is the only way to galvanize an organization to address these issues and the profit motive working as Adam Smith's invisible hand helps to allocate resources adequately.

However it is a very difficult proposition to implement politically. How will we select the private enterprise to lease it to, what to price the lease at, how will we award them a contract - same cost plus basis ? I think it can be done and is done by countries and enterprises routinely. But in our environment these decisions will raise a hue and cry, PILs and court interference, allegation of scams.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 104
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 04 Oct 2017 21:56

I still feel that first reform has to be in the IOFS, IDS and IDSA.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Oct 2017 02:37

Vidur

However it is a very difficult proposition to implement politically. How will we select the private enterprise to lease it to, what to price the lease at, how will we award them a contract - same cost plus basis ? I think it can be done and is done by countries and enterprises routinely. But in our environment these decisions will raise a hue and cry, PILs and court interference, allegation of scams.



Why not call a seminar with CII, OFB, management institutes, and the unions to come up with a process.

Change is must and a shared plan is best.

US has DFAR which mandates how much % profit an enterprise can charge on:
- new development (more)
- stable product (medium)
- commodity (low)

UK privatized Royal Ordnance Factories and sold them lock stock and barrel to BAE which in turn shut down what it considered unprofitable and had an employee retirement/exit plan based on years of service in addition to what ever pension they had accumulated.
But UK is a declining power and doesn't need this.

US has private companies operate its arsenals where the actual heavy weapons are made.

GM operates the tank factory. Earlier it was Chrysler which has been bought by FIAT.

Indian problem is this: If OFB is not changed IA will get defeated due to the many bottlenecks in this system.
In WWII, the GB developed many weapons systems while under German attack and did it in quantity.
In India even with well funded labs and NC machines in OFB it won't happen due to the general malaise.

The CAG reports OFB places orders for 15% of long lead items as they know they will not fulfill the orders in time Is this acceptable?
In case of imported raw material is even worse.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2017 07:25

Vidur, Have you read CAG report 15 of 2017 especially the chapters on OFB?

For a not for profit organization they sure fudge their numbers and manage to get away with a lot of stuff.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2017 21:30

Xpost link to NoKo emphasis on CNC machines

viewtopic.php?p=2222966#p2222966

Meanwhile the CAG reports document the constant neglect by OFB of the machinery modernization efforts by delaying procurement orders by two three years even after approval and the subsequent non commissioning of the CNC machines.

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3704
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 16 Oct 2017 01:14

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/919566886920110080 --> Ah yes, Ordnance Factor Khamaria has commenced production of a Russian 125 mm FSAPDS round under Project Mango for IA T-72s & T-90s.

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3704
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:43

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/919814793891950593 --> Ordnance Factory Khamaria used to produce IMI's 125 mm FSAPDS round but that was discontinued after the company was blacklisted.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2017 21:37

Rakesh those two tweets mean that OFB has resumed production of 125mm tank rounds which were halted due to scams.
Recall the CAG castigating OFB for not fulfilling 125mm tank rounds orders.

I guess they could not for they were halted.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4939
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ShauryaT » 17 Oct 2017 22:20

ramana wrote:
Why not call a seminar with CII, OFB, management institutes, and the unions to come up with a process.

Change is must and a shared plan is best.
Even in the best of capitalistic societies, the private defense business is a "shared" public-private risk-reward enterprise. If there is political will, the best way to do this is for the government to off load OFB along with associated DRDO labs if any to a private enterprise. The private enterprise gets guaranteed business based on benchmarks from the government. For this guaranteed business to a certain level, the private enterprise warrants no mass layoffs for 10 years or so. Such a model may take care of the concerns of labor except for the politically motivated unionized leadership. The answer to that type of opposition can only be in smashing them.

At root we also have to solve the issue of lack of funding, and the answer to that is to make it politically expensive to pay lip service to MoD finances. The solution is partly in creating vested interests, private enterprise is one but the biggest is our soldiers. I am sorry to use emotions in this way but reality is unless the sacrifices of our soldiers do not get an emotional connect with the masses, the masses will not care enough to demand such an outcome. Media and SM has a role to play here.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2017 23:24

ShauryaT,

BTW how come even OFB does not get those 10 years orders guarantee!!!

CAG reports detail the shoddy job by OFB but by same token the ordering process is also very iffy. it was only in 2016 that the Ammo road map was agreed to by Army and the MOD.

They were still ordering year upon year even when they were facing shortages and have to import raw materials for long lead items. No funding for that.

Take a look at the requirement for 5679 sniper rifles? Which company will make that odd lot. It will require mfg planning extra work. And this will add to the cost.
Why not 5700 or 10,000 to make it a round lot?
Besides can use them for spares and combat losses.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4939
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ShauryaT » 18 Oct 2017 00:06

If I have to use one word to describe the reason for the lack of commitment for orders from MoD to OFB, it would be "Jugaad".

Committed capital expenses in an overall shrinking capital budget is a much sought after item. A big part of this pot goes to foreign companies in multi year contracts, who once committed are not so easy to shaft around. But OFB is like ghar ki mooli, the question asked is what is the minimum that needs to be committed to OFB made items (like rifles, ammo), leaving the maximum amount of the meagre capital budget to be used for some other purpose. IOW: It is allocation of a meagre pool that is part of the issue. Also, who is complaining? not OFB - they get paid regardless. Who suffers? soldiers and our capabilities. Who cares for these to create enough political compulsions to stop this harakiri and fund them adequately?

So, why order 10,000 when 5679 can be made to work at our soldiers and India's capabilities costs. Who is making MoD accountable?

Bart S
BRFite
Posts: 742
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 18 Oct 2017 00:34

ramana wrote:ShauryaT,

BTW how come even OFB does not get those 10 years orders guarantee!!!

CAG reports detail the shoddy job by OFB but by same token the ordering process is also very iffy. it was only in 2016 that the Ammo road map was agreed to by Army and the MOD.

They were still ordering year upon year even when they were facing shortages and have to import raw materials for long lead items. No funding for that.

Take a look at the requirement for 5679 sniper rifles? Which company will make that odd lot. It will require mfg planning extra work. And this will add to the cost.
Why not 5700 or 10,000 to make it a round lot?
Besides can use them for spares and combat losses.


The irony of it is that the company bagging the order is going to make 6000 anyway and bill that cost as part of the 5679 rifles that they supply.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4939
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ShauryaT » 18 Oct 2017 01:59

Just to be clear, it is not like the committed orders would be some great investment on part of GoI towards private enterprise. GoI currently spends about 50K crores on DPSU's annually. I will submit the wholesale transfer of DPSU's to private enterprise can be achieved without increasing budgets for the purpose (the fact that more monies are needed is a separate matter) by repurposing the 50K crores in a transactional relationship rather than one based on patronage.

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14368
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 18 Oct 2017 02:45

MOD struck a deal to manufacture a circa 1986 round at OFB in 21st century. Jai ho MOD and OFB. Meanwhile IA twiddled its thumbs and ignored a DRDO round till it became obvious IAI rounds were no longer available. Even as the DRDO relaunched round goes for validation etc, why pick such an obsolete Russian round for tge intrrim.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dinesh_kimar, wasu and 63 guests