Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2016 17:36

Public sector workers across India went on strike to protest Prime Minister Modi's push for privatization and demand higher wages

PSU workers will paralyse the nation rather than do what the other 96% of the country's workers do. And they have a stranglehold on defence production. No wonder China can vicariously control our defence industry

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 913
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 06 Nov 2016 17:43

JayS wrote:
Gyan wrote:DPSUs are not better in any way. Against the target of 500 Akash missiles BDL produced around 80 by 2015.
BEL has not been able to upgrade NVD technology and only imports new technology after every few years like XR5 now.
ECIL cannot produce ANY electronic fuzes at all.
HAL has f... ked up the production of LCA by failing to set up mandated production line.


The HAL one, is it from new one or the old CAG report?? Could you please link?? The one which pulled HAL for Mk1 line since 2005 or so is known.



http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default/fil ... pter_7.pdf

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2718
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2016 00:01

Gyan wrote:
JayS wrote:
The HAL one, is it from new one or the old CAG report?? Could you please link?? The one which pulled HAL for Mk1 line since 2005 or so is known.



http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default/fil ... pter_7.pdf


This is the "old report" I was referring to. It has been discussed before on LCA thread. Nevertheless any more discussion is welcome. But it should be based on points not general rhetoric as its easy to pass general comments but difficult to point specific logical deficiencies and give logical rebuttal to it. (not directed to you Gyan, but general expectation from poster on this thread for conducive discussion).

One of my observation about CAG reports related to engineering projects is, they do not seem to understand the engineering aspects of projects fully. And rather than considering points in wholistic manner look at them in isolation, like they are some numbers in balance sheet. For example in this LCA report, in one chapter they diss IAF for constant changes in requirements, while not considering what might have been IAF's compulsions for the same, in another they diss ADA for making too many changes, without giving much thought that the requirements demanded changes, and in next they diss HAL for not able to make LCA as per contracts while sort of ignoring frequent changes in SOP and delays in development. I think the report is great for facts, but one should draw own conclusions based on the facts.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 913
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 07 Nov 2016 10:26

CAG is the only source that provides authoritative data. One can ignore the opinions and look at data. Secondly the company/IAF also has a right to give their comments which are recorded in reports. Absense of explanation by them in report is important. As usual truth lies somewhere in between. Though I am of the personal opinion that HAL old management was sabotaging LCA project. The CAG report shows that the production line that should have been complete in 2006 is still nowhere near complete. And please don't say that production line can only be built after IOC or FOC. If present max production capacity of HAL is 4 then going by HAL competence they will manufacture not more than 2-3 LCA per annum in 2017-2018.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2718
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2016 15:17

Its 8/yr. At one place CAG notes that the number of jigs required were revised for 8/yr in 2012 by some procurement guy in HAL. The plan was always to make 3-4LCA by this yr end. If they deliver SP4 by Dec end, they are bang on target. Next yr onwards its 8/yr.

Read other chapters where they punch IAF and ADA separately on these same points. The points related to requirement updates have been discussed at length in LCA thread previously.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2016 17:22

If HAL has been sabotaging LCA and they do not deliver now - HAL needs to be strangled and sidelined as an aviation major over the next few decades without wasting any money on PSU parasitism. Let them be a Helicopter major.

Some personal info here. My dad worked in a pharma "quasi" PSU which was as slothful as it could be. On bad days he used to lament that the medicines made could be applied on the forehead before prayers and they would possibly be more effective than if taken internally as tablets or injections. Fortunately the Indian pharma sector took off and the unit from which my late father retired so many decades ago is a sick unit waiting to be thrown in the grave. Visiting the colony evokes childhood memories for me and memories of the first model aircraft I made and flew - but it is a ghost town, and rightly so.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 913
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 07 Nov 2016 18:12

As per CAG report, HAL was given mandate, funds in 2001 to set up production line for 8 LCA per annum to be completed by 2006. Till 2015 they had not even ordered the equipment, machines etc. Delay due to Marriage of Chairman daughter lasted 15 years and still continuing. Present capacity is claimed to be 4 LCA per annum by HAL but has not been demonstrated. My comment- HAL sabotaged LCA and it will not complete 20 LCA before 2021. HAL will not manufacture more than 2-3 LCA in 2017-2018. All of it is fault of management and unions have NO role to play.

prashanth
BRFite
Posts: 511
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 16:50
Location: Barad- dyr

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby prashanth » 07 Nov 2016 18:46

Shiv avare and Gyan saar,
I don't understand why HALwould sabotage LCA when it is their only lifeline to stay relevant in the industry. I think it is more of incompetence at work here. How are they faring with knocked down kit assembly of Su30 MKI? Not too well I suppose.
The point is that GOI is stuck with HAL being the only manufacturer in India that can try to build any aircraft. And they appear to have failed here. Only way forward for GOI is to prostrate before pvt manufacturers (Indian of course) to build LCA. To do this they have to coax pvt industries to build infrastrure from ground up, promise to buy 400 LCAs and allow them to hire or poach employees from PSUs across India. Over time GOI can divest/close down sick PSUs, but stop recruitment immediately. Of course, the unit cost of LCA might be higher with pvt manufacturers than HAL, but you get your aircraft on time.

My dad worked in a pharma "quasi" PSU which was as slothful as it could be.


Let me take a guess KA antibiotics?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2016 19:37

No

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2016 19:55

We have spent much time cursing the IAF for being the prime culprit in delaying the LCA. But clearly HAL must share some part of the blame.

HAL is an organization that has survived by someone or the other holding its hand and leading it under the name of "licence production" and fake promises of technology transfer. OF course HAL is a government cesspit and successive governments are responsible for shameless situations like HAL still "collaborating" with BAe for making Adour turbofans. In the meantime the government has been sinking money into another bottomless, narrow pit called GTRE. HAL should have been making Adour knockoffs by now.

HAL has a mixed bag. The HF 24 failure cannot be blamed on HAL alone. The Kiran served us well. HT-2 I think worked. HPT 32 was a sad let down. In the meantime HAL has made Alouette II, Alouette III, MiG 21s, MiG 27s, Jaguars, Su-30s and now Hawks "successfully" albeit with much friction about poor back up and maintenance. There have definitely been some fatal crashes related to maintenance.

The Dhruv and LCH make me happy and HAL is setting up a new division where they will be handheld for Ka 226

But excuse my language here - I feel it deeply. Those fukers must deliver on LCA come what may. And LCH . If they fail I suggest that AMCA will simply be hot air to be laughed at at the next aero India. HAL needs to be grilled in Aero India 2017

prashanth
BRFite
Posts: 511
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 16:50
Location: Barad- dyr

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby prashanth » 07 Nov 2016 20:12

shiv wrote:The Dhruv and LCH make me happy and HAL is setting up a new division where they will be handheld for Ka 226


Yeah, there are some positives with HAL which we have to admit. With LCA though, they have yet to deliver. Sincerely hope that they ramp up production capacity to atleast 10/year in the near future.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Nov 2016 23:50

I am going to post the Economic Times article which shows HAL had Rs. 51,000 crores with them and were earning interests and showing as profit and same time demanding Rs. 2500 crores for setting up LCA mfg facility.
Someone has to be take to task for this.
And now with the 83 LCA ordered they will get 10% of that price as advance money!!!!

Bart S
BRFite
Posts: 809
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 08 Nov 2016 02:45

prashanth wrote:Shiv avare and Gyan saar,
I don't understand why HALwould sabotage LCA when it is their only lifeline to stay relevant in the industry. I think it is more of incompetence at work here.


That would be true if HAL were a rational entity, which in this context means a private entity who has to sink or swim and cannot rely on taxpayer money to keep it afloat. At the moment it is neither accountable to the taxpayer nor the the customer (IAF), just to the MOD.

Also, the organizational interest does not necessarily translate down to an individual or group of employees acting in the organizational interest, since pretty much the same principle applies. If employees can freely unionize and imbibe commie thoughts and attitudes, have a job for life with guaranteed income, and have opportunities to enrich themselves in illegal ways while getting away with it, it would take an especially honest and patriotic individual to rise above all that and deliver, and even that may do little good if they are simply swimming against the tide when it comes to the majority.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2016 05:21

ramana wrote:I am going to post the Economic Times article which shows HAL had Rs. 51,000 crores with them and were earning interests and showing as profit and same time demanding Rs. 2500 crores for setting up LCA mfg facility.
Someone has to be take to task for this.
And now with the 83 LCA ordered they will get 10% of that price as advance money!!!!


LINK

For those who don't want to read the article here is summary graphic:

Image

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2016 09:53

Until last year the bank FD interest rate was around 8%. At that rate a simple bank deposit of 50,000 crore would get 4000 crore as interest per year. Any Indian who meets any bank manager and makes a deposit of 1 crore will be showered favours . I can imagine the "navaratna" favours that HAL directors get for keeping that amount in the bank. It won't be cash - but there will be privileges - like use of private club facilities, invites to shows and dinners. Likewise the bank managers get free passes to Aero India You scratch my back I scratch yours.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2718
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 08 Nov 2016 15:08

shiv wrote:Until last year the bank FD interest rate was around 8%. At that rate a simple bank deposit of 50,000 crore would get 4000 crore as interest per year. Any Indian who meets any bank manager and makes a deposit of 1 crore will be showered favours . I can imagine the "navaratna" favours that HAL directors get for keeping that amount in the bank. It won't be cash - but there will be privileges - like use of private club facilities, invites to shows and dinners. Likewise the bank managers get free passes to Aero India You scratch my back I scratch yours.


Why guesstimate figures when you can check the balance sheet of HAL and see exact figures and where they are parked.

BTW the favours would be applicable for Pvt company chairman as well, no??

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 913
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 08 Nov 2016 17:12

Ramana, I am not a HAL lover but a lot of these advances to HAL have been spent or committed for long lead items; like whole of first 20 IOC batch money is spent by HAL but it will continue to be shown as advance till 2022 by which time HAL will deliver the aircraft.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2016 17:52

JayS wrote:
Why guesstimate figures when you can check the balance sheet of HAL and see exact figures and where they are parked.

BTW the favours would be applicable for Pvt company chairman as well, no??

Hmm pvt companies doing it and receiving favours does not make PSU actions any more attractive or pleasing to me. Perhaps you know of pvt firms who park 50k crores of govt money in banks and report bank interest as profits. I would be happy to learn about any such company.

In fact this may mean two separate scams involving another branch of govt i.e. Nationalized banks. They give bad loans to Mallya types and enjoy the perks, but the banks can still show healthy balance sheets of 1000s of crores of taxpayer money because of PSU deposits on which interest is paid by squeezing 1000s of small loan takers like home owners, car buyers and student loans. It stinks

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2718
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 08 Nov 2016 18:29

shiv wrote:Hmm pvt companies doing it and receiving favours does not make PSU actions any more attractive or pleasing to me. Perhaps you know of pvt firms who park 50k crores of govt money in banks and report bank interest as profits. I would be happy to learn about any such company.

In fact this may mean two separate scams involving another branch of govt i.e. Nationalized banks. They give bad loans to Mallya types and enjoy the perks, but the banks can still show healthy balance sheets of 1000s of crores of taxpayer money because of PSU deposits on which interest is paid by squeezing 1000s of small loan takers like home owners, car buyers and student loans. It stinks


Why throw random numbers and come up with CTs when the actual figures are one click away. You are suggesting that there is an incentive for HAL CMD (or entire BoG) to deliberately park money in banks in FD to get some free cheap thrills from the bank manager and thus they forcefully took money from GOI and then placed in some FD and that somehow stopped GOI from doing some other important work somewhere else. While you do not have exact idea on how much money is put in which account and earning how much interest on it. That they add that interest as profit is also a conjuncture on your part. If 4000Cr is the interest earned by HAL as per your calculation, where is the money..?? It should show up on HAL balance sheet is a big way, right, as this amount is 25% of their yearly revenue...!!

I have repeatedly pointed out here that HAL BoG does not have financial Autonomy above 1000Cr. They cannot take decision to park money anywhere or use it elsewhere without express approval from MoD. So MoD always knew about it. Some of that advance money they have got as down payment on new contracts and a large part is actually come as mile-stone related payment from existing projects, which is capital to be spent till next milestone - buying raw materials, salaries, paying contractors, suppliers etc etc. Another large part of it is parked in a separate kitty of some kind of reserve which also contains funds earmarked for RnD (this is the only redundant thing I saw - and that does not earn any interest whatsoever actually). Only a small part is parked in FD and the interest earned from it is subtracted while calculating final net profit and treated as liability towards customer.

While reading the news you must have also noticed the thing where it says that the methodology of advance payment is to be revised. If the advance payments are paid based on milestones which might be few yrs apart, obviously the amount looks staggering. Why MoD has no policy to give the funds yearly - one should ask this question to MoD, not to HAL. Show me one company which would not like to get as much money from customer in advance as the customer is willing to pay. PSU or private.

The money is lying idle with HAL is not HAL's problem, its MoD's fault. (NOTE HAL cannot divert that money for other use unless MoD approves the proposal. First show that HAL BoG has that power vested in them and then ask why HAL is not doing it). Likewise MoD and indeed many other ministries have such idle fund like everywhere. I gave another example of MoD parking funds worth $2-3B in some accounts in US for no damn reasons. Blame HAL for that too..!!

These kind of exaggeration of things with hypothetical figures are counter-productive to the discussion if the aim is to identify real problems with the system. Else we can rename the thread as "OFB, MoD Companies Dissing Thread" instead of "OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread"

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2016 19:41

JayS wrote:These kind of exaggeration of things with hypothetical figures are counter-productive to the discussion if the aim is to identify real problems with the system. Else we can rename the thread as "OFB, MoD Companies Dissing Thread" instead of "OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread"

This is a discussion on a thread where people will post perceptions, sometimes in strong language that you may not want to hear. It is up to you to rebut. I do not buy the "counter productive to discussion" argument. This is the discussion.

I post what I think and I intend to diss PSUs if I feel that way. I may praise them if it comes to some other issue.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2016 19:57

JayS wrote:
I have repeatedly pointed out here that HAL BoG does not have financial Autonomy above 1000Cr. They cannot take decision to park money anywhere or use it elsewhere without express approval from MoD. So MoD always knew about it. Some of that advance money they have got as down payment on new contracts and a large part is actually come as mile-stone related payment from existing projects, which is capital to be spent till next milestone - buying raw materials, salaries, paying contractors, suppliers etc etc. Another large part of it is parked in a separate kitty of some kind of reserve which also contains funds earmarked for RnD (this is the only redundant thing I saw - and that does not earn any interest whatsoever actually). Only a small part is parked in FD and the interest earned from it is subtracted while calculating final net profit and treated as liability towards customer.

While reading the news you must have also noticed the thing where it says that the methodology of advance payment is to be revised. If the advance payments are paid based on milestones which might be few yrs apart, obviously the amount looks staggering. Why MoD has no policy to give the funds yearly - one should ask this question to MoD, not to HAL. [b]Show me one company which would not like to get as much money from customer in advance as the customer is willing to pay. PSU or private.

OK you are saying here that MoD parks one heck of a lot of money - to the tune of nearly 8 billion US dollars with HAL of which HAL can spend a maximum of 1000 crores but they have the autonomy to collect interest on some of it and show it as profit?

With all this money in the bucket, what problems do you think HAL had in building hangars and ordering equipment which they did not do as per the CAG report.

People on BRF have been saying "Throw money at HAL so that they can make more LCAs". Obviously those BRFites who have said that don't have a clue that throwing money at HAL is no use. HAL has money but it is just a purser for the MoD. In fact it looks like HAL simply cannot keep its promises given that its financial autonomy is so restricted. Would you say that all the delays from HAL are because of the twin issues of changes in specs from 2001 onwards (IAFs fault) and MoD not allowing money to be spent (MoD's fault) and that HAL is innocent and should not be dissed by ignorant people such as myself?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2016 19:59

JayS wrote:I gave another example of MoD parking funds worth $2-3B in some accounts in US for no damn reasons. Blame HAL for that too..!!

Are you saying this as a rhetorical point or do you believe this is the start of a productive discussion?

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2718
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 08 Nov 2016 20:49

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
I have repeatedly pointed out here that HAL BoG does not have financial Autonomy above 1000Cr. They cannot take decision to park money anywhere or use it elsewhere without express approval from MoD. So MoD always knew about it. Some of that advance money they have got as down payment on new contracts and a large part is actually come as mile-stone related payment from existing projects, which is capital to be spent till next milestone - buying raw materials, salaries, paying contractors, suppliers etc etc. Another large part of it is parked in a separate kitty of some kind of reserve which also contains funds earmarked for RnD (this is the only redundant thing I saw - and that does not earn any interest whatsoever actually). Only a small part is parked in FD and the interest earned from it is subtracted while calculating final net profit and treated as liability towards customer.

While reading the news you must have also noticed the thing where it says that the methodology of advance payment is to be revised. If the advance payments are paid based on milestones which might be few yrs apart, obviously the amount looks staggering. Why MoD has no policy to give the funds yearly - one should ask this question to MoD, not to HAL. [b]Show me one company which would not like to get as much money from customer in advance as the customer is willing to pay. PSU or private.

OK you are saying here that MoD parks one heck of a lot of money - to the tune of nearly 8 billion US dollars with HAL of which HAL can spend a maximum of 1000 crores but they have the autonomy to collect interest on some of it and show it as profit?

With all this money in the bucket, what problems do you think HAL had in building hangars and ordering equipment which they did not do as per the CAG report.

People on BRF have been saying "Throw money at HAL so that they can make more LCAs". Obviously those BRFites who have said that don't have a clue that throwing money at HAL is no use. HAL has money but it is just a purser for the MoD. In fact it looks like HAL simply cannot keep its promises given that its financial autonomy is so restricted. Would you say that all the delays from HAL are because of the twin issues of changes in specs from 2001 onwards (IAFs fault) and MoD not allowing money to be spent (MoD's fault) and that HAL is innocent and should not be dissed by ignorant people such as myself?


Criticize all you want - but based on points/facts/figures which can help in figuring out real problems, issues and perhaps some suggestions for improvements. If that is not the purpose of this thread, I don't know what is. Because we already have many threads where we can diss DPUSs.

OK. Lets say I give you 3-4 tasks and give you money separately, earmarked for each of them. Say you have got total 100Rs. Rule 1 - I give you autonomy to spend anything less than 10Rs as per your discretion towards fulfilment of your tasks. But if its more than that you must come ask me first. Even if task A is pending due to lack of money and task B is delayed so has some money left in its account, you cannot simple use that money from task A account to task B account without asking me. If I say OK, then you can do that. If you have made profits, I will tell you if you can keep it or you have to return it to me. If you have spare money which is not earmarked for any task you cannot use it unless I tell you so. If I allow, you can keep some money which may not need immediately in bank and gain interest. But you cannot use that interest wherever you want - see Rule 1. If there is a cash inflow on your balance sheet and its not used up, whether because you were a lazy bum or whether because I did not allowed you to use it, it will be seen as operating profit. Would you blame yourself if the later is the reason for non-use of the money?? Does that help??

Note that this is as per my understanding of the system, the things I have known, seen from authentic sources. If someone comes up and shows an authoritative source saying in reality MoD does not work this way, I would happily stand corrected.

Accepted that HAL erred in making facilities on time particularly on the buildings and some generic machines. And they should take responsibility for that and GOI should hold erring people responsible (To be frank, I did not even read HAL's reply to CAG for this one, since I find it hard to defend HAL on this one).

But frankly speaking I do not really see much of an effect of it on production. I showed you quotes and numbers related to delays in LSP in other thread, I don't see how HAL could have delivered them any faster. Even if HAL had created a factory capable of making all 120 Jets in one go, they cannot do so unless the SOP is frozen. Check when SOP is frozen for IOC and see how long HAL look to deliver from then. Why SP1-SP3 are not identical?? Because SOP was frozen after they started the manufacturing for components for them. They had to standardize the systems over these SPs. We have discussed this how this was supposed to be done in LSPs but didn't happen there, and initials SPs are true LSP. Had HAL gone ahead with SP with full speed in 2013 or so, today we would have had 8-10 jets which are not according to the IOC-2 SOP. And then CAG would have scolded HAL for being too eager to produce (and IAF might have rejected that batch for not being ROH friendly), just as CAG scolded MoD for giving orders before the IOC was obtained. At one place CAG pulled up HAL procurement officers decision from 2012 to go for jigs for 8/yr production rate, saying that the planed rate for 2014-15 was only 4 aircrafts. How does one work in such environment where if anything other that exact scripted plan happens you get pulled up?? BTW I do not know of a single Aerospace project which worked as per plan.

One thing is, above is true for HAL LCA manufacturing line. HAL design division which designed a lot of systems, stand with ADA for changing specifications. But we do not know how much of it was solely their incompetency and how much was need due to reasons not in their hand. Also note that the decisions regarding LCA are taken by Governing council headed by RM and heads of all stakeholder organisations in it. So things are not happening in isolation.
Last edited by JayS on 08 Nov 2016 20:53, edited 1 time in total.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2718
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 08 Nov 2016 20:51

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:I gave another example of MoD parking funds worth $2-3B in some accounts in US for no damn reasons. Blame HAL for that too..!!

Are you saying this as a rhetorical point or do you believe this is the start of a productive discussion?


Point was money with HAL is not the only money parked idling. Which is most logical Org responsible for all this??

It was all hunky dory within MoD until MP came along and started asking questions why this money lying here, why that money is lying there. When Unspent money from allotted budget for Armed Forces is returned to MoF without using/spending for intended task, at the year end, who do we blame, AF officers or babus from MoD..??

A question for you, if you are given the authority to shut down HAL and move all production to pvt sector, would you kick all the HAL employees saying they all are govt employees and thus useless lazy bums or you will hire those who are good and let the other fend for themselves elsewhere?? For me dissing HAL, or any such organisation for that matter, lock stock and barrel, is like choosing the first option.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2016 22:59

JayS wrote:
A question for you, if you are given the authority to shut down HAL and move all production to pvt sector, would you kick all the HAL employees saying they all are govt employees and thus useless lazy bums or you will hire those who are good and let the other fend for themselves elsewhere??

It cannot be done.

What can be done is to remove inefficiencies. But they have to be exposed first

Excuses are the first refuge of inefficient people. What is HALs role in the delays that Tejas has faced and is facing?

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 950
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Manish_P » 29 Nov 2016 14:52

Re the Carl Gustaf M4

It has a lesser known but nifty new feature, one well appreciated by the users - 'Integrated round counter' (which shows the number of rounds fired by that particular unit)

I read on some SOF forum that for the earlier versions the operators had to manually log such entries so as to be aware when the shelf life of the unit was nearing an end.

If the logs were lost or damaged or missed then they would have to send that unit back to the armory for the check and recaliberation

Every useful little feature like this is really appreciated by the actual users though probably not noticed by internet warriors and armchair generals

vaibhav.n wrote:CG M4 is a SF specific weapon with many newer confined space rounds in offing. As can be seen from the table below they have further shaved of weight and length. The M2 variant is the IA standard now getting replaced with the M3. US Army Rangers and SF also use the M3 variant. After their Afghanistan experience the M3 would be issued to the entire US Army as a platoon level weapon. Even in exercises with us they gained all the specific techniques how the IA deploys the CG.

CARL-GUSTAF
M2 Weight: 14.2kg Length: 1130mm
M3 Weight: 10 kg Length: 1065mm
M4 Weight: <7kg Length: <1000mm

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2016 11:40

How much does the Russian Shmell weigh? Any plans to produce the rounds?

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 950
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 30 Nov 2016 12:49

The newer 90mm RPO-M "Shmel-M" is around 10 kgs and is re-usable (as in the launcher can be used again).

Claimed maximum range is about 1700 mtrs. Effective range against fortifications and light armor would be lesser.

While being a potent weapon against fortified bunkers, It's probably a lesser effective anti-armor weapon compared to the Carl Gustaf. The muzzle velocity of the Shmel at around 125-130 mtrs/sec being much much slower (nearly half) as compared to the Carl Gustafs 230-240 mtrs/sec.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2016 06:26

I guess better option is to develop a thermo-baric round for CG 84 and have commonality.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 950
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 02 Dec 2016 09:06

+ 1 Sir

IMVHO Certainly doable. Perhaps already done by the swedes during development but they didn't find any takers?

The US, in a slightly different approach, have fielded 83mm thermobarbic rounds with the SMAW variant

(The Pakis are reported to have this system)

One major trouble with the SMAW - the huge backblast. Not really good for firing from confined spaces.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Mar 2017 01:06

News reports of a huge fire in Jablapur OF complex in Khamaria on 26 March 2017

Based on wiki this one makes shells like 125mm tank rounds etc.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Mar 2017 01:24

I guess we can use this thread for Military hardware exports also as the old one is gone.

X_posting.....

Bheeshma wrote:Couldn't find the export thread so posting here.

Hopefully Varunastra is also exported to Vietnam.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 821427.cms

Steadily cranking up military ties with Myanmar as part of the overall policy to counter China's strategic inroads in the region, India is now also going to export lightweight torpedoes to the country.
India is already providing rocket launchers, mortars, rifles, radars, night-vision devices, Gypsies, bailey bridges, communication and Inmarsat sets as well as road construction equipment like dozers, tippers and soil compacters to the Myanmarese armed forces.
The export documents for the $37.9 million deal with Myanmar for the indigenously developed torpedoes,
in turn, were presented to finance-cum-defence minister Arun Jaitley at a function here on Friday.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 02 May 2017 21:09

X-Post....

Bart S wrote:
nam wrote:
I just checked wiki, POF has 27K employees, OFB has 164K. ratio of 6:1. PA maintains approximate 50% of our force level. Even if OFB has 1/6 the productivity it should be able to produce the same amount as POF i.e. to equip a army of 500K. So POF at 1/6 the workforce is able to sustain a 500K army of 250B GDP for constant fights in 5 fronts and we can't do one?

If IA wants OFB to produce X and they deliver .25X, then we assume in fours years they will reach X. Even if we assume training & ops use of 50% of .25X, then in eight years we should have unused stock of X. Given that war can happen anytime, IA will make it utmost to maintain stocks.

Ofcourse this is a simple calculation, where shelf life is not considered.

We haven't had a full fledge conflict for 14 years. Where did all the ammo go?

The same OFB was able to equip IA for a two front, full fledge war in 71 within a year. The same OFB is not able to do it now?

Personal view shortage of ammo preventing a response is nonsense.


I agree with you to the extent that there is lack of political will and the rest are excuses. In addition, the issue with the OFB is tactical in nature, the bigger issue is at the strategic level with the political leadership over the last few decades who have at best neglected to fix the issues and at worst probably knowingly let the issues remain as a way of sabotaging our warfighting ability. India of 1971 was led by IG (who despite all her flaws could take tough decisions) and we had just come off some hard knocks in the preceding decade due to which the complacency was not as much as it is today.

However, in addition to all of that I think we do really have an issue with availability of arms and ammo for a full-fledged war, and more importantly the infrastructure and means to churn out the stuff locally for an extended war.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 539
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 02 May 2017 22:39

Continuing with the shortage of ammo issue.

Here is a company which makes tank ammo cartridge.

http://www.smgroupindia.com/tank-ammunitions

They produced the Cartridge, OFB probably just fill up the propellant. And we read about tank ammo shortage?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 01:22

HAL and OFB should have annual supplier excellence award for their myriad sub-tier suppliers.

The standard should be 98% on time delivery with 98% quality/defect free.

This would motivate supplier excellence. Can be small, medium and large business/industry category.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 25 May 2017 21:50

Here is what is wrong with OFB and the DPSUs
Workers are under political unions that want to sabotage war effort.
If they were centers of excellence this situation would never have come about.

Karan M wrote:Kudos to the PM to stand his ground.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 808375.cms

4 lakh Defence employees plan massive strike

BENGALURU: At a time when commanders of India's defence forces are delivering pep talks and preparing their personnel for prospective conflicts, 4 lakh employees working with 41 ordnance factories, naval docks, and other productions units that form the backbone of the armed forces' are readying themselves for a massive protest.

The multiple protests against the government's move to increase privatisation in defence production beginning from Wednesday are likely to disrupt work in parts but experts say it is unlikely to change the Centre's resolve, which they believe is the right way forward.

The has now finalised the 'strategic partnership' policy that will see increased private participation in defence manufacturing in the coming years.

On Wednesday, a one-hour "no work" protest is planned in all of the ordnance factories, 52 Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) labs, naval docks, ship-building units, a few Indian Air Force stations, and defence PSUS. (lol)

The protests come after multiple attempts by the trade unions to secure a meeting with Defence Minister Arun Jaitley failed and letters to more than 60 members of parliament (MPs) including several on the Defence Standing Committee did not garner any response.

"We have even written to Amit Shah and Sonia Gandhi. :mrgreen: The Centre did not take us into confidence before taking such an important decision on privatisation. We are not just concerned about thousands of jobs that will be lost in the coming years, but also about the strategic issues," All India Defence Employees' Federation (AIDEF) General Secretary C Srikumar told TOI from Chennai.


Look at the arrogance of this TU leader. Center did not take us into confidence. Have the employees performed to deserve being taken into confidence?
30 years after end of Cold War India still has not privatized this essential sector keeping faith in these workers to produce and help the military forces fighting in the field.
The current TU leaders must have joined as trainees at end of Cold War and still haven't learnt anything.
Appealing to Sonia Gandhi who has 44 MPs is ridiculous.
And to Amit Shah is even more ridiculous.

unless they are trying to threaten the party.

where was the concern about strategic issues when you consistently underperformed and wasted national resources with shoddy goods.
INSAS rifle jams in firefight are legendary and all attributable to QA issues in OFB.
The HSLD bombs fuzes had to be abandoned and standardized on imported fuzes.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2017 09:58

nam wrote:The CAG report on OFB annual production is fascinating.
Despite all the screams about shortages, the target for 155MM is 50k/year. I30MM meet the target in 2015, slowed down last year.

No numbers on 105, which is the most used.

The most interesting is tank rounds. The target is zero for 125MM sabot rounds! We don't produce any 125MM sabot!. 120MM sabot only 2k. This must be for Arjun,but that is less than 20 rounds per deployed 124 tanks! Really does not make sense.

Either OFB is waiting for 125 & 120 MM MK2 production or we are importing them. 125MM probably from Israel and Russia. But 120MM, from where? I have a feeling Arjun can fire 120MM Israeli round.

The most troubling is the fuze production.

All in all, I think this has been released to make way for some OFB cleansing. I remember a newsreport on PMO asking for OFB targets and production rates. This is what such a report might look like.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2017 10:07

Also overall fuzes is troubling but many private forms are not in the CAG.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2017 10:37

From DRDO tech forcus 2002

HESH

High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) is the secondary ammunition for Arjun and is effective against a variety of soft targets, tanks, fortifications, etc. The complete HESH round consists of a semi-combustible cartridge case, primer with steel obturating cup, and a single-base propellant. The optimised explosive composition of HESH defeats rolled homogenous armour plate detaching a scab of about 9 kg mass moving with a velocity of 100 to 120 m/s. Besides the scabbing effect, blast and shock imparts a tremendous jolt to the enemy tank stripping off explosive reactive armour and incapacitating the crew severely, thereby affecting their fighting capabilities. The accuracy of the HESH is of the order of 0.25 mil standard deviation.



Also DRDO has developed Thermobaric warhead for Arjun,

SajeevJino
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 03 Sep 2016 22:14

Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby SajeevJino » 23 Jul 2017 12:34

ramana wrote:
nam wrote:The CAG report on OFB annual production is fascinating.
Despite all the screams about shortages, the target for 155MM is 50k/year. I30MM meet the target in 2015, slowed down last year.

No numbers on 105, which is the most used.

The most interesting is tank rounds. The target is zero for 125MM sabot rounds! We don't produce any 125MM sabot!. 120MM sabot only 2k. This must be for Arjun,but that is less than 20 rounds per deployed 124 tanks! Really does not make sense.

Either OFB is waiting for 125 & 120 MM MK2 production or we are importing them. 125MM probably from Israel and Russia. But 120MM, from where? I have a feeling Arjun can fire 120MM Israeli round.

The most troubling is the fuze production.

All in all, I think this has been released to make way for some OFB cleansing. I remember a newsreport on PMO asking for OFB targets and production rates. This is what such a report might look like.



well, nam might be wrong on this issue, lemme summarize the things in the year of 2015 April - 2016 March

155mm rounds ( M 107 + ERFB(BB) + ERFB (BT) + ERFB Illumination ) = Target was 88262 , issued 83059

155 mm fuze

They didn't provide the exact number of 155mm fuze there, they added Electoric fuze for 155mm (M85P13 PD1/PD2/PD3A ) and mechanical fuze for 105 mm in same column,
total numbers for target is 3 Lakh, while 2.4 lakh delivered,
CAG also said above in the same report 83% of Shells has no fuze ( that report upto Dec 2016) - assume we have nearly 7 million Artillery rounds

155 mm Charge ( M8 + M9 ) = Target was 39,000 , issued 41872 ( oh yeah produced beyond target :D )

Well the known issue of fuzes for 155mm

Fuze-213 MK-5 M-2 - is a mechanical fuze - suitable for projectiles ranging from 75mm to 155mm - Target was 20,000 , issued 0
Fuze B429/PD-2 - is a mechanical fuze ( assumed for 130 mm FG ) - Target was 1 lakh , issued 0
Fuze PDM572/PD3A - Not Sure mech/electrical ( for 155mm ) - target was 50,000 , issued 0
___________________________________________________________________________________

Issue for Tank ammo also well adressed in that report,

Our T 90/T 72 has Big 0 number of AFSPDS round, well the RFP also on the table to procure $1.5 billion worth of AFSPDS ( no rounds since April 2013 )
Same Big 0 Number of HE rounds, - ( 0 rounds bought in the time frame of April 2015 to Dec 2016 )

Our T 90/72 now uses only HE and HEAT, Our enemy has good guess only HEAT and HE rounds will come incase of tank battle :oops:

Well No one care for arjun - leave it, some 100+ odd arjun lives with 650 rounds of AFSPDS rounds,- since 2013 april to Dec 2016 Arjun received only 650 AFSPDS rounds, no HE no HESH nothing


Report full link

http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default/fil ... rvices.pdf


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: deejay, Karthik S and 44 guests