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OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

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SajeevJino
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby SajeevJino » 23 Jul 2017 12:57

The report also states the big cap in 30mm ammo shortage, which used in BMP 2 IFV

The 30mm fires both Armor piercing and High explosive shells,

From April 2013 to Dec 2016 values

AP Shells - target was - 1.73 million - issued - 1.10 million, avg production per year around 3.5 million, Necessity is around 4.5 million per year
HE Shells - target was - 1.68 million - issued - 0.2 million, avg production per year around 50,000, Necessity is around 4.5 million per year

very very low amount of HE while the AP number is bit good, no idea about fuzes

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 23 Jul 2017 13:48

SajeevJino wrote:
ramana wrote:



well, nam might be wrong on this issue, lemme summarize the things in the year of 2015 April - 2016 March

155mm rounds ( M 107 + ERFB(BB) + ERFB (BT) + ERFB Illumination ) = Target was 88262 , issued 83059



I just mentioned the largest type. Presumably these are the most used. The whole point is, if there are shortage, the target would have been something like 200K to 250K of 155 MM rounds. We want to fill up the voids asap. However that is not the case, which is strange.

Ok, given that we have less number of 155 MM compared to 130MM, then 130MM target at least should have been larger. It is not the case either.

The sabot round issue is unexplainable. Low or no target, low or no production. Where is the 125/120 MM DRDO designed round produced?

Arjun tanks are deployed closer to the border. They will see action, if the balloon goes up. Why only 2k per year target?

I wonder if babus are reducing targets, to prevent show OFB's in bad light and keep their cushy jobs. Even these targets are been missed.

Or the numbers are fudged.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2017 05:29

Metal and Steel Factory fire March 2017


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 634451.cms

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2017 06:06


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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gaur » 31 Jul 2017 10:20


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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2017 02:11

I think the MoD is aware of the deficiencies in ammo mfg capability and is operationalizing private ammo makers.

Re 30 mm ammo

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2017 02:32




The Army has conveyed its serious concerns to the defence ministry over the Ordnance Factory Board’s “failure” to punish officials responsible for last year’s massive blast at an ammunition depot in Maharashtra in which 19 army personnel perished, an official document says.

Over 19,325 defective anti-tank mines had exploded primarily due to leakage of explosives from some of the mines stored at the Central Ammunition Depot in Pulgaon
.

In a letter to Defence Production Secretary Ashok Kumar Gupta, the Army headquarters has sought fixing of responsibility for the blaze at the depot on May 31, 2016.

Separately, the Army has taken up the issue with Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, official sources said.

Two army officials, four defence security corps personnel and 13 defence fire safety staff were killed in the fire at the depot, the largest ammunition and weapons store in the country and said to be the second largest in Asia.

In the letter, seen by PTI, the Army said a Court of Inquiry has attributed the cause of the accident to exudation of highly explosive trinitrotoluene (TNT) from some of the defective anti-tank non-detectable mines.

No reaction was available from the OFB.

The Army sought “fixing of responsibility” and “traceability of lapses” on the part of officials by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).


The OFB operates 41 ordnance factories across the country and functions under the department of defence production of the ministry of defence.

The mines were manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Chanda.

“A detailed Court of Inquiry, which was conducted by the Army, attributed the cause of the defect (exudation of TNT) to lapses both by manufacturing (OFB) and quality assurance agencies.

“These agencies are under the control of department of defence production under the defence ministry and suitable action needs to be taken by them,” the Army said in the letter.

It further said, “Fixing of accountability and traceability for the said accident is yet to be established by the OFB and the director general of quality assurance (DGQA) even one year after the accident.”

Official sources said there was criminal negligence on the part of certain officials as cited by the probe and sought immediate action against them.

The sources said the High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) in Pune in 2012 had clearly called the quality of TNT in the anti-tank mines as safety hazard but the OFB stated it to be a world-wide phenomenon.

The CoI had recommended disposal of defective ammunition in a time-bound manner to prevent recurrence of fire at the depot, the sources said.




What happened?
A large quantity of anti-tank mines caught fire and 19 people were killed along with destruction of large ammo stock.
Why did the fire happen?
Bad quality of TNT was oozed out(exuded) of the anti tank mines
Why was bad quality allowed?
COI says its not enough/proper checks and balance in OFB.
IOW they blame the operator or human error.

My remarks.

TNT is prone to exudation of dinitrotoluenes and other isomers of trinitrotoluene. Even small quantities of such impurities can cause such effect. The effect shows especially in projectiles containing TNT and stored at higher temperatures, e.g. during summer. Exudation of impurities leads to formation of pores and cracks (which in turn cause increased shock sensitivity). Migration of the exudated liquid into the fuze screw thread can form fire channels, increasing the risk of accidental detonations; fuze malfunction can result from the liquids migrating into its mechanism.[28] Calcium silicate is mixed with TNT to mitigate the tendency towards exudation.[29]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT


So its a chemical process and not negligence as is being made out by the COI.

I agree OFB is MoFu but can't hang them for this.
No amount of inspection will clear up a process deficiency.

Was the TNT made with adequate silicate filler to preclude exudation?
What was the temperature at which the mines were stored?
Pulgoan gets hot in summer.

What exactly did HEMRL say about the quality of TNT used?
Was it before the usage or after the fire?

Agree exudation led to the auto ignition of the mines.
But exudation is intrinsic to TNT and needs an inhibitor.
Didn't OFB know about this need for inhibitor?

I am not sure about this.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby jayasimha » 01 Aug 2017 13:28

Image

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Special Service and Features
01-August-2017 11:01 IST
Special Feature – I-Day 2017

Defence Production
Marching Towards Self Reliance


*Arun Jaitley

Can a nation aspiring to be a Super Power continue to depend on import of defence equipment and ignore the development of its Indigenous defence production or defence industrial base? Definitely not. Indigenous defence production or defence industrial base are the essential components of long term strategic planning of a country. The heavy reliance on imports is not only disturbing from the perspective of strategic policy and the role India has to play in the security of the region, but is also a matter of concern from the economic point of view in terms of the potential for growth and employment generation. Though all the aspects of power constitute a Super Power, the military power is a key to a Nation’s rise to great or Super Power status.

Going back into the history, Indian defence industry has a history of more than 200 years. During the British period, Ordnance Factories were set up to manufacture guns and ammunitions. The first Ordnance Factory was set up at Cossipore in 1801. A total of 18 factories were set up before independence. At present, India’s defence industrial base comprises 41 Ordnance Factories geographically spread across the country, 9 Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs), more than 200 private sector license holder companies and a few thousand Small, Medium and Micro enterprises feeding to the large manufacturers and Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs). More than 50 defence laboratories of DRDO are also part of the entire eco-system of defence manufacturing in the country.

Till about the year 2000, most of our major defence equipment and weapon systems were either imported or were produced in India by Ordnance Factories or Defence Public Sector Undertakings under licensed production. DRDO, being the only defence R&D agency in the country, actively contributed to the technology development and supplemented the efforts of indigenization to a large extent. As a result of the efforts of DRDO and DPSUs in R&D and manufacturing, the country has reached a stage, where we have developed capabilities in manufacturing of almost all types of defence equipments and systems. Today, as per a rough analysis, out of our total defence procurement, 40 per cent is indigenous production. In some of the major platforms, a significant amount of indigenization has been achieved. For example, T-90 Tank has 74 per cent indigenization, Infantry Combat Vehicle (BMP II) has 97 per cent indigenization, Sukhoi 30 Fighter Aircraft has 58 per cent indigenization, Konkurs Missile has 90per cent indigenization. Apart from the indigenization level achieved in platforms being manufactured under licensed production, we have also achieved success in developing some of the major systems indigenously through our own R&D. These include Akash Missile System, Advance Light Helicopters, Light Combat Aircraft, Pinaca Rockets, various types of radars such as Central Acquisition Radar, Weapon Locating Radar, Battlefield Surveillance Radar etc. These systems also have more than 50-60per cent indigenous content.

With the above progress made through the State-owned manufacturing companies and DRDO, the time was right to expand the defence industrial base by including the private sector in the fold of Indian defence industry. In 2001, the Government allowed the entry of private sector into defence manufacturing along with Foreign Direct Investment up to 26per cent. It is our endeavour to harness the potential of the entire spectrum of the industry and expertise available in the country in our journey towards building our own defence industrial base, ultimately leading to the self-reliance. Though the entry of private sector was opened up in 2001, the growth of private sector participation in defence manufacturing was insignificant till about 3-4 years back and it was largely limited to production of parts and components to be supplied to Ordnance Factories and DPSUs. With the liberalization in the licensing regime in last 3 years, 128 licenses have been issued for manufacturing of various defence items, whereas in the last 14 years before that period, only 214 licenses were issued.

Defence being a monopsony sector, where Government is the only buyer, the structure and growth of the domestic defence industry is driven by the Procurement Policy of the Government. The Government has, therefore, fine-tuned the Procurement policy to give preference to indigenously manufactured equipments. To further promote manufacturing of strategic platforms viz. Fighter Aircrafts, Helicopters, Submarines and Armoured Vehicles, Government has recently announced a Strategic Partnership Policy, where shortlisted Indian companies can form JVs or establish other kinds of partnerships with foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) to manufacture such platforms in India with Transfer of Technology. The policies and initiatives taken in the last 3 years have started showing results. 3 years back, in 2013-14, where only 47.2per cent of the capital procurement was made from Indian vendors, in the year 2016-17, it has gone up to 60.6per cent.

To promote indigenous design, development and manufacturing of defence equipment within the country, the Government has undertaken a series of policy and process reforms. These include liberalization of licensing and FDI policy, streamlining Offset guidelines, rationalization of export control processes, addressing level playing issues between public and private sector.


A number of steps have also been taken to revitalize the working of DPSUs. All DPSUs and Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) have been mandated to increase their outsourcing to SMEs, so that an eco-system for manufacturing develops within the country. The DPSUs and OFB have been given targets for export and for making their processes more efficient by cutting down costs and removing inefficiencies. Our defence shipyards have achieved a significant percentage of indigenization in shipbuilding. Today, all the ships and patrol vessels etc. are being ordered by Navy and Coastguard to the Indian Shipyards. Gradually, disinvestment in DPSUs is also being pursued to make them more accountable and bring in operational efficiency. In the last 3 years, the Value of Production (VOP) of DPSUs and OFB has increased by approximately 28per cent and productivity by 38per cent.

We are at a crucial and important phase of our journey towards self-reliance as far as defence production is concerned. After independence, while we started with primarily imports, then gradually moved towards licensed production in 70s, 80s and 90s and now have started moving towards indigenous design, development and manufacturing. Like other sectors such as automobile, computer software, heavy engineering etc., I am hopeful that with the constant policy push, efficient administrative process and handholding, the Indian defence industry would rise to the occasion and we can witness design, development and manufacturing of major defence equipments and platforms in the country in near future. The process of reforms and the Ease of Doing Business is an ongoing process and the Government and industry will have to work together to create an eco-system, which is required for the growth and sustainability of this sector and this would be in our long term interest of national security.

********
*Author is the Union Minister for Defence, Finance and Corporate Affairs.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 01 Aug 2017 14:53

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/defe ... 73514.html
Repainting the white elephant
Hectic moves within the defence ministry suggest the Modi government is working to end one of the government's last monopolies - ordnance
factories


For nearly 70 years, the ordnance factories that supplied the armed forces with everything from boots to battle tanks thrived as a government monopoly. This meant the armed forces had no option but to buy what they produced. Then, this year, the ministry of defence (MoD) made its first moves to open one of its last bastions to the harsh light of competition. The full contours of what is being planned are yet to be revealed, but a study of the agenda points of meetings suggests a major change in thinking within the ministry.
In February, a letter went from the Prime Minister's Office to the secretary (defence production), asking for lists of ordnance factory board products, plant and machinery and, more significantly, the land held by each of the 41 factories operating under the MoD's department of defence production.The letter was followed by a series of policy moves signalling that business as usual was coming to an end within the ordnance factories, long criticised by the armed forces for supplying substandard, overpriced equipment. In April, the MoD invited the private sector to participate in tenders to supply nine types of ammunition for tanks and howitzers, hitherto a preserve of the ordnance factories. On April 27, an MoD circular to the chairman of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) identified a list of 143 'non-core' items, ranging from uniform cloth and sleeping bags to military trucks, that the army could buy from the open market. The shape-up or ship-out approach was outlined in the circular: '...the MoD can identify non-core activities that can be either closed down or put on the PPP model for optimal use of the OFB's vast infrastructure and skilled manpower'.


Several OFB-built mainstays will soon need replacements. The army has to go shopping for a new main battle tank to replace the T-90 and T-72 tanks built at Avadi, it will need a new infantry combat vehicle to replace the BMP-2 made at the Ordnance Factory Medak, and a new 7.62x51 mm assault rifle to replace the INSAS rifle made by Rifle Factory, Ishapore.
A report submitted by a defence ministry officer in May 2016, copies of which were sent to the prime minister and the national security advisor, is believed to have set the OFB reform ball rolling. In the report, A.K. Saxena, additional Controller General of Defence Accounts (CGDA), an organisation responsible for financial advice, payment and accounting in the MoD, pointed towards the OFB's serious inefficiencies. The OFB, Saxena said, was overcharging the army several hundred crores in cases ranging from battle tanks to clothing to general stores. In the case of the T-90 tanks built under licence from Russia at the Heavy Vehicles Factory Avadi, the OFB was charging the army Rs 21 crore per tank, nearly 50 per cent more than what an import would cost.
"Make in India will fail unless the ordnance factories are corporatised, or better still, get into partnerships with the private sector. There is no way for them but to compete," Saxena says.

In September last year, NSA Ajit Doval assessed the army's dissatisfaction with OFB products in a meeting with then army vice chief Lt Gen. Bipin Rawat. This led to the series of policy decisions this year that gradually whittled away at OFB monopolies.
The powerful trade unions, which control over 88,000 employees in these factories, are aghast at the move to bring in the private sector and have warned of an agitation culminating in an indefinite strike. "The government's PPP move spells the death knell for our factories," says C. Srikumar, general secretary, All India Defence Employees' Federation. "Without orders, our factories will turn sick. And when they turn sick, they can be sold off."

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2017 22:51

Srikumar got it right. All these years OFB unions were making shoddy goods and affecting military readiness and effectiveness.

Recall the HSLD fuzes, etc...

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2017 22:52

One way is to allow private players to run some of the plants. The Vehicle factory can be run by Ashok Leyland but still owned by Government. GOCR.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 02 Aug 2017 00:23

So the unions want 88,000 people in a country of 1 billion to be employed at the cost of the security of the nation ?

It will still be cheaper to pay this lot lifelong salary to swat flies and move the production to somewhere else.

88,000 holding the nation of 1.3 billion to ransom.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Aug 2017 02:17

OFB unions are their own enemy. Having gotten such assurance frm Pranab Mukherjee to Manohar Parrikar what have they done to improve productivity and quality?

Looks like Dhanush gun is being eyed by private enterprise.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 08 Aug 2017 04:43

BTW I looked at 2015 CAG report on Ammunition situation.
The audit agency did an audit over 3 years from MoD, AHQ, Army Ordnance corps Storage areas and OFB. The audit comprised 69 critical ammo types. Of these they followed entire supply chain of 27 items.

Lets deal with shortages first:

Imports constitute very large share of the ammunitions purchases.
The orders are acted upon as if the supplier has huge inventory and MoD releases the orders just in nick of time. It completely ignores the long process of long lead materials, mfg, quality proofing and final delivery.
And after delivery the stocks are kept in horrid conditions in CAD and other depots.
AHQ has a designated organization to ensure correct ammo is being purchased and stockpiled.

Next comes OFB. They agree to targets greater than their capacity hoping to fill in with supply chain jugad.
Worse they are given money for long lead items and usually buy 30 % of the requirement.
And there is a pointing fingers match between OFB and the relevant AHQ. The Ministry of Defense Production is a passive bystander. Doesn't do anything to resolve issues nor take up the OFB case with the MoD.
OFB also has issues with QA. And since they make in large lots, any single rejections or failures can cause the whole lot to be rejected.
Statistical Quality control.
I don't see any factory acceptance tests or supplier certifications.
The AOD does not have sufficient demolition or demilitarization facilities or personnel. Hence old explosives stockpile at depots and catch fire.


What is standard in Western countries is innovative in India.
There is a need to have an urgent task force led by a Major General that comprises MoD, MoDP, AHQ, OFB to do value streaming the process and bring in efficiencies or India will get defeated by these people each claiming to do their job

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 21 Aug 2017 21:15

Jayasimha, Looks like OFB is making up for the lack of R&D by seeking foreign collaboration for even basic rockets.

OFB was supposed to be making 68mm rockets what happened?

jayasimha wrote:
https://ofbeproc.gov.in/scripts/itt_pq/ ... 5%2017.pdf

This EOI is floated for selection of partner for collaboration agreement for
production and supply of 70mm Rockets through participation in RFP to be
floated by MoD wherein OFB and the prospective collaborator shall
participate jointly



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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 22 Aug 2017 18:02

The recent moves to change OFB has happened because of political will in the PMO not the Ministries. There is opposition not only from the unions but some elements in the ministry also. The above analysis by poster Ramana is a good one. But implementation in our system is not so straightforward. Has to be driven politically.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 22 Aug 2017 18:03

There is a long way to go.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Vidur » 22 Aug 2017 18:07

It maybe noted that the employee unions are not the only powerful interests. There are the officers - IOFS who also call themselves IAS Defence Productio ! Not to be confused with the Indian Defence Service an allied service of the IAS/IPS/IFS who call themselves IAS Defence ! All these interests have either to be managed or to be swept away. Requires very strong will and focus and radical change which is something the Indian state does not have (will) or do (change).

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 27 Aug 2017 11:39

Recently GOI was planning to dilute Stake in BEML

https://twitter.com/arunjaitley/status/ ... 5290179584

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Anshuman.Kumar » 27 Aug 2017 13:26

Vidur Ji which batch you are btw

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2017 03:52

No personal questions.
You have only 5 posts hence not banning you.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2017 23:18

X-Post with my comments

Gaur wrote:What about defence confidentiality?', BEML staff ask Arun Jaitley, protest disinvestment

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/what-abou ... 30689.html


"BEML is not for sale. Save BEML, Save nation" banners welcomed Arun Jaitley to the PSU's unit in Bengaluru on Saturday. Employees of Bharat Earth Movers Limited made their angst clear to the Defense minister over the government's proposal to sell 26 per cent stakes in the company.

Dozens of employees gathered at the venue where Arun Jaitley inaugurated the BEML's third Line ultra modern metro manufacturing facility to enhance the production of metro cars. Many staff wore tags opposing the government's disinvestment move.

BEML manufactures in three verticals: rail and metro, earth moving equipment and defence. The staff claim that with disinvestment comes the risk of compromising on the confidentiality of defence manufacturing. :rotfl:

"We come under the ministry of defence. BEML started with an investment of Rs 5 crores but now we are a profit making entity with profits of Rs 3,560 crores. We request the government to not go ahead with its proposal of 26 per cent strategic sale," said Srinivas, the President of the BMEL employees association.

"We are a profit making company and are in the business of defence manufacturing. Our defence equipment has helped Indian military forces win two wars. If the government privatises this company, our documents, defence manufacturing secrets will be accessed by private persons. This should not happen. We have given Rs 960 crore in dividends to the government," he added.

{The BEML union President is talking like the dividends are from his pocket. Its not like the employees were underpaid to create the dividends. They got fair compensation. Secondly the stake is 26% not 100%. And MOD still retains control. L&T is making parts for Arihant which is even more classified program than making earthmovers.}

"Why is the government moving to disinvest a profit making entity?" A group of BEML staff made a representation to Defence Minister Arun Jaitley on Saturday and submitted a plea to stop the disinvestment process. The staff had just one question to ask, why is the government bent upon selling off a profit making entity?

{Who is going to buy a loss making PSU?}


"The purpose of setting up public sector itself is to generate employment, to ensure social justice and uplift the down trodden. This proposed disinvestment will defeat that very purpose. BSNL are classic examples. Corporates that come forward will eventually outsource it to someone else for marginal profits. They have no national interest. What happens to 8,000 employees of BEML, contract operators both technical and non-technical, vendors, suppliers etc?" asked Bhupathi Rao, General Secretary, BEML employees association.

Employees have been protesting at all BEML units since the government's decision became official. They intend to continue their protest until the government withdraws its decision.


{This is the real question being wrapped around national security. vendors, suppliers will still exist as they are needed to provide parts for BEML. As for the 8000 employees they all have to prove they are needed. And BEML was established in Public Sector to make machinery the private sector was unable or not interested in the early years. It was not setup for SJW or uplift the downtrodden. The union shows lack of social responsibility and business sense. Old days are over. Days of bribing MoD to sell Tatra kit trucks and issuing threats to Army Chiefs are over.}



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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2017 02:16

2016-2017 Parliament committee report on OFB functioning Issued March 2017...

Many infrastructure projects to be completed in 2017. Lots of monitoring by even Parliament.
Maj. Gen Khanduri is going gang busters.



LINK

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 31 Aug 2017 04:01

SaiK wrote:FYI: ^^kapilrdave ji

Move to Transfer Military Ammunition Technology to Private Vendors Stirs Controversy
Defence employees have objected to the DRDO Laboratory's move to transfer key ammunition technology to private players.

https://newsclick.in/move-transfer-mili ... ontroversy


/have you all seen street fights in desh? first thing they do is catch your shirt at the choking point/neck. :D



Actually the AIDEF is blowing smoke.
What OFB employees contributed to the technology?
Its DENEL technology purchased by OFB.
HEMRL further developed the technology and changed the formulation.
So what has OFB employees who are mainly work stoppage guys have a say on this?

They neither produce nor allow others to produce.

This Union will have to be broken up. How is a Communist party Trade Union allowed in a defense business?

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ashthor » 31 Aug 2017 17:29

Government Sacks High Ranking Ordnance Factories Service Officers For ‘Unsatisfactory Performance’

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/governmen ... erformance

The Department of Defence Production, Ministry of Defence has sacked 13 high ranking Group ‘A’ officials in the Indian Ordnance Factory Services (IOFS) for ‘unsatisfactory performance’ as as part of a major effort to improve the performance of the organisation.


More in the link.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby jayasimha » 31 Aug 2017 17:53

Cheena Dokh la effect..
burners are brought near the seats.

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
31-August-2017 16:10 IST
Press Communique

:eek: dint see that it was already posted.

NW/Rajib

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 31 Aug 2017 18:19


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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gaur » 31 Aug 2017 21:11

^^
This is unprecedented AFAIK. Very hopeful news indeed!

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby srin » 31 Aug 2017 22:36

It is a smart move. You can't sack the unionized workers, so you sack the people at the top levels, who will in turn exert pressure on the middle and unionized bottom cadres.
I'm not sure how the performance appraisal is done, but if outputs are agreed upon and not delivered, the top of the organization must go.

Btw, are OFBs part of the Govt or corporations wholly owned by Govt ?

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 31 Aug 2017 23:25

Its wholly owned by GOI and is run by OFB headquartered in Kolkata.

I think the other shoe is MoD procurement babus how stall and stymie the funding process.
They have willfully harmed defense preparedness by rejecting tenders, declaring sole source vendor, protecting corruption by blacklisting foreign vendors when its the MoD and Politicians who receive the bribes.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Sep 2017 13:49

Looking at the Links in which Denel 2005 and Israeli Company in 2012, there seems to be lobby within India deliberately keeping us unarmed, and this lobby seems to have a lot of levers in power, as with everything there may be set backs but need to get break up the system

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 01 Sep 2017 15:06

srin wrote:It is a smart move. You can't sack the unionized workers, so you sack the people at the top levels, who will in turn exert pressure on the middle and unionized bottom cadres.
I'm not sure how the performance appraisal is done, but if outputs are agreed upon and not delivered, the top of the organization must go.

Btw, are OFBs part of the Govt or corporations wholly owned by Govt ?

OFB not corporations AFAIK. Directly GOI bodies. They are not even like PSUs which work for profit in some sense. OFB completely work on No-profit basis.

Making an example of out of big fish always works in India. When my college turned from Govt to Autonomous, admin staff didn't change attitude. It took firing of the Registrar (most powerful babu at college level) to show everyone their place. That's why I have been wishing to see big fish being used to make example out of, post demonetization. But not happening. Same for reforms in Admin cadre. Some big fellas need to be kicked out very publically, as a reminder to others. When people know that even a well connected guy couldn't save himself they become conscious. Otherwise, its all "chalta hai" zindabad.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2017 05:31

viewtopic.php?p=2208912#p2208912



Cosmo_R wrote:The jump from a high building and growing wings on the way down works in the US and nowhere else. FSU tried it for a while (design bureaus) and found it ruinous.

LM's and Boeing's Phantom works built on their companies' parts bin that came from aircraft in production and from reservoir of experienced talent they could cherry pick from.

If we'd kept up the effort on the Marut instead trying to starting again with the Jaguar, we'd have an aerospace industry today. Going into the AMCA with a timeline of the mid-late 2030s with the FGFA (as plan B ), which is to be based on the PAK/FA which in turn is not slated to be operational before the late 2020s will not be about growing wings on the way down, it will be about acquiring them after you hit the ground.


Incrementalism combined with rapid iteration is what made Amazon a trillion dollar market cap company. Start with a clean sheet every morning and it's akin to angels rushing in where fools fear to tread.

It is all about project management and that was Kelly Johnson's genius.


Lets explore why Marut did not get follow on.
This killed the budding aircraft industry in India.
Made licence building the norm.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 05 Sep 2017 20:08

Why nobody ever talks of failure to follow up Gnat/Ajeet. Look at its beautiful lines. Or to develop follow on to Canberra & Avro.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby SBajwa » 05 Sep 2017 20:45

What these government owned OFB need is professional IIM MBAs so that professional work is done.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby vera_k » 05 Sep 2017 20:53

^^
Well, how is that different from the current state of affairs? Rather, there would be plenty of people in ISRO, DRDO who have delivered on significant projects. Putting some of them in charge would be a start.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2017 21:35

Gyan wrote:Why nobody ever talks of failure to follow up Gnat/Ajeet. Look at its beautiful lines. Or to develop follow on to Canberra & Avro.



Some say the LCA is developed with Gnat/Ajeet in mind with a lot of bells and whistles.

The Canberra got moot when the Jaguar came as it has similar bomb load and was low level flight to evade radars.

BTW did you know both Gnat and Canberra and the Lightning were all designed by one designer Petter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._W._Petter

And BTW again, his father's firm produced the famous oil engine Petters!!!!

Avro was supposed to be replaced with MTA which is not even a paper study.

Sir Sidney Camm said about the British cancellation of TSR-2

On the cancellation in 1965 of the BAC TSR-2: "All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 got just the first three right ..."


Same can be said about the HF-24....

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 05 Sep 2017 23:58

The reason TSR-2 died happened to us also.

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2017 02:16

Exactly. That is why I put the quote.

I am interested in finding out what exactly happened?

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2017 02:17

I would like to compare the HF-73 to the Jaguar specs and see what were the differences.

Here is link to HF-24

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut

1961 Flight Global page on Marut:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 01991.html

Please look at pages on the left.

Would appreciate if someone can create a pdf of the whole article.
And post it here.


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