OFB, MoD Companies: News & Discussion

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bharathp
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by bharathp »

sankum wrote:Its simple , you have to dismiss the leaders and violent employees enforcing the strike from jobs and take the rest to factories to work by the police. The strike will be over in no time. These overpaid and low productive employees can never get work of same nature in open market. This has been done before to break strikes in government establishments.
Jayalalithaa dismissed over 1 lakh govt employees using the ESMA (Essential services maintenance act). the folks losing the govt jobs resented her, but this also ensured many unemployed youth also got jobs. and this time they were doubly sure not to go on strike for flimsy stuff.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Yagnasri »

Long back in 1983 NTR destroyed the power of Non Gazetteed Employee associations in AP by simply refusing to negotiate and let the agitation to go one for months. The broke the back of the associations and they never recovered till date. Unless there is serious threat the communist unions will not backdown.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

For all the bad rep that these guys have - and having been exposed to them multiple times over the years, I can say just one thing - the challenge is not with the workers - it is the babulog that are the problem.
Let me give you an example,
To ensure tolerances some tools such as height gauges are used - some new entrants (recent ITI's) when they joined, suggested that the plant (not naming the factory where this happened), get 2D gauges with 10 micron or less tolerance - on the shop floor.
Would have in one stroke, improved the tolerances. These plants have a 'test lab' a sample is taken and tolerance tested in these 'labs'. Issue is the sample comes from the shopfloor (40-45 degrees temperature) to the lab (20 degrees) - the height gauge is calibrated for 20 degrees temperature - when you measure the part it will be off tolerance by a few microns (thermal expansion and stuff) and sent back for machining. So the floor staff machine a few microns lower than tolerance for the sample - to ensure that it passes muster...yes this happens. In a high tolerance machine like a tank, not a major issue - but in a say gun sleeve or barrel... This when height gauges which can be installed on the shop floor (taking the vital temperature variance issue off as the 'scale' inside the gauge is also at the same temperature and so similar expansion) are available.
So, when these 'newbies' gave this suggestion a huge fanfare was done and then the production manager sent a request to the plant manager, finance approvals took ages and finally, when the order was about to be placed - some smart babu asked for a 'justification test' during the winter months - and this was to be done at another factory (to eliminate user bias apparently) - and then the test was done at - you guessed it - vehicle plant! (where the height gauge has higher tolerance as is!) and then the babu said, no justification (This whole stupidity took about a year) after which they upgraded the lab gauges (import) and did retraining on the shop floor. And yes - the babu who ordered the gauge was the same who cancelled the order (created the situation). And high end gauges were ordered for multiple labs (easily running into crores...ahem ahem).

The situation on the ground is that most machinery is out-dated, barely running - replacements almost never happen, When new machines do come in - there is a lot of grease involved (not the machine grease BTW). The floor workers are a dedicated lot - try working in 40 degree plus temperatures with just a 'baap dada ke zamane ka' fan 50 feet away from you when you are facing a furnace...
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Maria »

sankum wrote:Its simple , you have to dismiss the leaders and violent employees enforcing the strike from jobs and take the rest to factories to work by the police. The strike will be over in no time. These overpaid and low productive employees can never get work of same nature in open market. This has been done before to break strikes in government establishments.
Not to go OT but there is a danger of Chinese money being funneled into the Unions belonging to the BIF parties to denigrate India's war efforts, through disabling these 7 new units of the OFB. I sincerely hope the GoI is proactive and not a system in stupor as seen during the CAA protests/riots.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by bharathp »

Nikhil_Naya wrote: The situation on the ground is that most machinery is out-dated, barely running - replacements almost never happen, When new machines do come in - there is a lot of grease involved (not the machine grease BTW). The floor workers are a dedicated lot - try working in 40 degree plus temperatures with just a 'baap dada ke zamane ka' fan 50 feet away from you when you are facing a furnace...
in terms of the mfg setup only:
sometimes its easier to start afresh instead of trying to revamp a very old mfg setup.
coming to the example you gave, I really cannot believe that could be the case - that the folks from ITI or the babus would not know the difference in temp causes changes in measurements. this would be a new for OFB in case thats true.

no matter how much you defend the factory worker and place the blame on babus, the OFB has not done well even for higher tolerance works. the tendency of passing the buck from OFB factory worker all the way to the top to MOD and then back has been on going since 'baap dada ka zamaana'.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

Nikhil_Naya wrote: ......

The situation on the ground is that most machinery is out-dated, barely running - replacements almost never happen, When new machines do come in - there is a lot of grease involved (not the machine grease BTW). The floor workers are a dedicated lot - try working in 40 degree plus temperatures with just a 'baap dada ke zamane ka' fan 50 feet away from you when you are facing a furnace...
The management won't change unless they have something to lose. OFB has a captive market and their customer cannot give orders to anyone else in the country for a competing product. So no question of losing orders or losing customers and no incentive to improve quality. This is no different from Premier automobiles and Hindustan motors never making anything besides slightly modified 1950's designs for 40 years. There was zero incentive to change or improve and no adverse effects from failing to do that. It is unfortunate that floor workers will end up suffering but the same thing happened when Premier and HM shut shop once their customers got a choice to buy something else. Their floor workers weren't any more responsible for the situation than those working at OFB factories.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by darshhan »

Nikhil_Naya wrote:For all the bad rep that these guys have - and having been exposed to them multiple times over the years, I can say just one thing - the challenge is not with the workers - it is the babulog that are the problem.
Let me give you an example,
To ensure tolerances some tools such as height gauges are used - some new entrants (recent ITI's) when they joined, suggested that the plant (not naming the factory where this happened), get 2D gauges with 10 micron or less tolerance - on the shop floor.
Would have in one stroke, improved the tolerances. These plants have a 'test lab' a sample is taken and tolerance tested in these 'labs'. Issue is the sample comes from the shopfloor (40-45 degrees temperature) to the lab (20 degrees) - the height gauge is calibrated for 20 degrees temperature - when you measure the part it will be off tolerance by a few microns (thermal expansion and stuff) and sent back for machining. So the floor staff machine a few microns lower than tolerance for the sample - to ensure that it passes muster...yes this happens. In a high tolerance machine like a tank, not a major issue - but in a say gun sleeve or barrel... This when height gauges which can be installed on the shop floor (taking the vital temperature variance issue off as the 'scale' inside the gauge is also at the same temperature and so similar expansion) are available.
So, when these 'newbies' gave this suggestion a huge fanfare was done and then the production manager sent a request to the plant manager, finance approvals took ages and finally, when the order was about to be placed - some smart babu asked for a 'justification test' during the winter months - and this was to be done at another factory (to eliminate user bias apparently) - and then the test was done at - you guessed it - vehicle plant! (where the height gauge has higher tolerance as is!) and then the babu said, no justification (This whole stupidity took about a year) after which they upgraded the lab gauges (import) and did retraining on the shop floor. And yes - the babu who ordered the gauge was the same who cancelled the order (created the situation). And high end gauges were ordered for multiple labs (easily running into crores...ahem ahem).

The situation on the ground is that most machinery is out-dated, barely running - replacements almost never happen, When new machines do come in - there is a lot of grease involved (not the machine grease BTW). The floor workers are a dedicated lot - try working in 40 degree plus temperatures with just a 'baap dada ke zamane ka' fan 50 feet away from you when you are facing a furnace...
There is a lot of truth in what you stated. Just blaming the unionized workforce is plainly wrong. I would say that even some senior officers are good. But then people need scapegoats and villains and nothing fits this category like the unionized employees. These are the posts I wrote almost 4 years back.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6866&p=2190608&hilit=Ofb#p2190608
The situation with OFB is so bad that they cannot even draft proper contracts for new plants. Yours truly has worked on 2 such tenders floated by ordnance factories and can attest to the above situation. These type of shoddy contracts are perfect recipe for future disputes and dissatisfaction between the client(i.e Ordnance Factories) and the Contractor. Many a times the contracts themselves are being continuously extended in the hope of finding the requisite number of bidders or just outright cancelled.

Meanwhile most of the OFB plants are getting older by the day and production is continuously falling. And OFB simply does not have expertise in terms of Contract Management/Project Management to construct new plants both greenfield and brownfield.

Majority of OFB staff is into operations and is OKish in that aspect. By OKish I mean they are atleast mediocre in operations/production. But as far implementing new projects is concerned they are close to zero.

The cardinal mistake of OFB has been not to develop the Project Execution skills and expertise either inhouse or through a govt/psu consultant(like EIL or MECON) for defence projects. Now ofcourse it is too late. The forces as well as GOI both have run out of patience by now.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6866&p=2190608&hilit=Ofb#p2190656
Ramana ji, Past Govts are definitely responsible for the mess(mess is actually a euphemism for what is happening in OFB).

What I wonder is how the govts of the day just ignored this extremely critical sector till now?

Words like Bad or Tragic etc do not even start describing the situation at OFB. After decades of operating plants capable of manufacturing basic war stuff like nitroglycerine and common caliber cartridges like 5.56 MM/9 MM, they are still dependent on foreign vendors for supply of these plants. Basically no amount of reverse engineering to develop a design repository was even attempted. I mean how criminal is that? Worst part is they still need months or even years to award the contract for such basic plants.

To illustrate the incompetence of OFB let me give you an example involving nitroglycerine plants. All together there would be less than half a dozen nitroglycerine plant suppliers including technology in the world out of which 3-4 are European. The very same companies or their ancestors have supplied OFB with Nitroglycerine plants since atleast 1960's. So OFB has almost more than 50 years of operating such plants. Inspite of such massive experience in operating, handling and maintaining such plants, even today if OFB needs a new plant it needs to contact the same suppliers. Which means such huge learning was simply wasted by not going for reverse engineering. Before somebody asks reverse engineering in this case is not the same as reverse engineering a weapons system. Here it is simple Process engineering which means lots of piping, lots of valves and lots of pumps all being controlled through a decent automation/instrumentation system. indian companies are actually very good in it. That is it. They worked on the same system for decades and are still unable to replicate it.When and if these 3-4 euro companies start playing hardball, OFB wouldnt be able to produce even NG in sufficient quantities. I am tlking about NG which is most basic component of all explosives propellants along with NC.

OFB disaster is not just due to corruption or union politics. Rather it is a story of abject criminal negligence if not outright and deliberate malicious intent. The idea is so simple. Produce all the nukes and ICBMs you want but you will not be able to manufacture simple grenades without gasping for breath.
The above post was in context of cordite factory aruvankadu
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

bharathp wrote:
Nikhil_Naya wrote: The situation on the ground is that most machinery is out-dated, barely running - replacements almost never happen, When new machines do come in - there is a lot of grease involved (not the machine grease BTW). The floor workers are a dedicated lot - try working in 40 degree plus temperatures with just a 'baap dada ke zamane ka' fan 50 feet away from you when you are facing a furnace...
in terms of the mfg setup only:
sometimes its easier to start afresh instead of trying to revamp a very old mfg setup.
coming to the example you gave, I really cannot believe that could be the case - that the folks from ITI or the babus would not know the difference in temp causes changes in measurements. this would be a new for OFB in case thats true.

no matter how much you defend the factory worker and place the blame on babus, the OFB has not done well even for higher tolerance works. the tendency of passing the buck from OFB factory worker all the way to the top to MOD and then back has been on going since 'baap dada ka zamaana'.
Saar when did i say, they dont know the difference? They do know the difference this makes - and I was giving one example, there are MANY!. Yes easier to start fresh - but then we have 200 types of red tape that goes into this. The reason why the OFB has not done well is that they are still using 1980's tech in 2021 - in most cases. Lathes are literally 'baap dada ke zamane ka' - from companies that have ceased to exist in erstwhile Ludhiana belt, forging anvils have seen better days, rework rates will bring tears to a person who has learnt even basics of six sigma.
There are dedicated babu's who really want to make a difference - but then they are cornered by the ones who have the 'chalta hai' attitude. Do read about the Train18 fiasco (railway thread) - how the babus tried to scuttle a really good product - the challenge is there.
The floor workers are generally there for years (non transferrable) - when a new babu is transferred in - and is an active change manager - the floor workers do respond (the older hands know better), then the babu runs into the red-tape that the 'seniors' put in and the circle continues.
Not blaming the babus or even the workers - this whole system is a 'jhol' system making full use of the archaic law book (everything in triplicate, filed separately and signed by 6 people), in the age of Industry4.0 we are still Industry 2.5-3 level TBH.

Good points made by darshann as well - the rot runs deep. Best is to break it up and corporatize it to an extent!
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by arvin »

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 082422.ece

The joint platform of various federations and workers’ unions of the Ordnance Factory Board have decided to approach the Supreme Court against the Essential Defence Services Ordinance promulgated by the Centre on Wednesday. A joint meeting of the leaders in defence factories also decided to approach the International Labour Organisation against the Ordinance and against the alleged sabotage of the conciliatory mechanism by the Defence Ministry.
:-?
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

Fault may be with the babus or with the workers, it doesn't matter. When sarkar is involved in production, you will have drama of all sorts.

It is not government's business to be in a business.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

nam wrote:Fault may be with the babus or with the workers, it doesn't matter. When sarkar is involved in production, you will have drama of all sorts.

It is not government's business to be in a business.
these are legacy issues basically set up and nurtured by the congis-commies to look after vote banks.

The workforce is mostly low skilled and in it for the benefits that are assured by the commie unions. elections are violent and the spoils are plentiful.

work and production are the very last things on their minds.

there is a massive racket in the social spending that is used to siphon off grant in aid.

who will take over such organizations because none of the good will come to them while the bad will stay and continue to leech the life blood of the new owners.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by darshhan »

nam wrote:Fault may be with the babus or with the workers, it doesn't matter. When sarkar is involved in production, you will have drama of all sorts.

It is not government's business to be in a business.
While the basic premise of your argument is right, unfortunately defence production has its own issues which necessitate Govt involvement in some way or the another. Some of these issues are generic to almost all countries and some are specific to India.

However there are ways to minimize the negative implications resulting from govt involvement. These measures consist on fixing accountability and delegating requisite powers(financial and technical) at a single point.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

darshhan wrote:
nam wrote:Fault may be with the babus or with the workers, it doesn't matter. When sarkar is involved in production, you will have drama of all sorts.

It is not government's business to be in a business.
While the basic premise of your argument is right, unfortunately defence production has its own issues which necessitate Govt involvement in some way or the another. Some of these issues are generic to almost all countries and some are specific to India.

However there are ways to minimize the negative implications resulting from govt involvement. These measures consist on fixing accountability and delegating requisite powers(financial and technical) at a single point.
these PSU/OFB guys want the govt to "give" them "assured" orders for which they will invariably overcharge, or in lieu of no orders, they demand an iron clad assurance that they will continue to be paid, promoted, perked, pensioned, and comprehensively health cared at public expense.

They see this cushy life as their janm siddh adhikaar, जन्म सिद्ध अधिकार and that is why the govt is finding it difficult to sell "assets" like air India.

no amount of "fixing accountability and delegating requisite powers" is going to work around these facts.

you should see some of the kingdoms err townships that these PSU patrician workers have built for themselves at govt expense.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by nam »

darshhan wrote: While the basic premise of your argument is right, unfortunately defence production has its own issues which necessitate Govt involvement in some way or the another. Some of these issues are generic to almost all countries and some are specific to India.

However there are ways to minimize the negative implications resulting from govt involvement. These measures consist on fixing accountability and delegating requisite powers(financial and technical) at a single point.
I can understand GoI being involved in areas, where it is very expensive for private companies to setup facilities. R&D is one area. Ballistic Missile probably another.

However OFB is involved in run of the mill stuff, which private companies can easily manufacture. Everyone knows OFB is a life long job scheme and nothing to do with "Strategic capability".

Why does Ashok Leyland have to send CKD kit to OFB, for it to re-assemble and sell it to IA? All on tax payers expense.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by bharathp »

@darshan
unionized employees are - IMHO - the problem.
unionized employees with a captive market who do not have access to other vendors within the country (but have access to all vendors outside the country!) are the full gist of the problem.

you dont need to open up OFB or even corporatize them. just let them compete with private companies like L&T for a few years for the same products. put an open competetion for every product and if both L&T and OFB both come out equal, give preference to OFB.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

bharathp wrote:@darshan
unionized employees are - IMHO - the problem.
unionized employees with a captive market who do not have access to other vendors within the country (but have access to all vendors outside the country!) are the full gist of the problem.

you dont need to open up OFB or even corporatize them. just let them compete with private companies like L&T for a few years for the same products. put an open competetion for every product and if both L&T and OFB both come out equal, give preference to OFB.


organized labor / unionized employees are a minuscule part of the national labor force.

the vast majority are in the unorganized sectors, non unionized and unaffiliated to any political party in appreciable numbers.

we are repeatedly being held to ransom by this small group that has communist and naxal affiliations, hence the wide support of the woke presstitutes and their media muscle is a given.

Many of the unwashed labor "leaders" hold forth on electronic media while posing as messiahs of the unionized proletariat hence assured of publicity and public curiosity. The so called "academicians" from places like JNU and other such public funded sewers pretending to be centers of global excellence also jump into the fray and pretty soon the larger cross border commie propaganda machinery kicks in

Pass legislations to allow retrenchment in case of non viability of the company or PSU or OF.

bring in lateral entries by absorbing and upskilling people from the forces, BSF etc.

Find alternate products to manufacture in case current product mix turns out to be unviable or has become obsolescent.

alternately, frame the number 303 and hang it up on the wall and then go home
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by bharathp »

chetak wrote:
organized labor / unionized employees are a minuscule part of the national labor force.

the vast majority are in the unorganized sectors, non unionized and unaffiliated to any political party in appreciable numbers.

we are repeatedly being held to ransom by this small group that has communist and naxal affiliations, hence the wide support of the woke presstitutes and their media muscle is a given.

Many of the unwashed labor "leaders" hold forth on electronic media while posing as messiahs of the unionized proletariat hence assured of publicity and public curiosity. The so called "academicians" from places like JNU and other such public funded sewers pretending to be centers of global excellence also jump into the fray and pretty soon the larger cross border commie propaganda machinery kicks in

Pass legislations to allow retrenchment in case of non viability of the company or PSU or OF.

bring in lateral entries by absorbing and upskilling people from the forces, BSF etc.

Find alternate products to manufacture in case current product mix turns out to be unviable or has become obsolescent.

alternately, frame the number 303 and hang it up on the wall and then go home
any retrenchment of PSU's for non-viability will come back to the govt - since the govt failed the company
it will also be used in full by the opposition for "failing the employees and also increasing unemployment"

the only recourse I can see is to open competition and say "OFB is the best - we will let them prove it" and ask them to compete with bharat forge/L&T etc. give them everything they need - R&D labs etc.
if they fail, ask them for a root cause analysis and give a chance to fix it.
shuold give them a fair chance but also keep it transparent.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

bharathp wrote:
chetak wrote:
organized labor / unionized employees are a minuscule part of the national labor force.

the vast majority are in the unorganized sectors, non unionized and unaffiliated to any political party in appreciable numbers.

we are repeatedly being held to ransom by this small group that has communist and naxal affiliations, hence the wide support of the woke presstitutes and their media muscle is a given.

Many of the unwashed labor "leaders" hold forth on electronic media while posing as messiahs of the unionized proletariat hence assured of publicity and public curiosity. The so called "academicians" from places like JNU and other such public funded sewers pretending to be centers of global excellence also jump into the fray and pretty soon the larger cross border commie propaganda machinery kicks in

Pass legislations to allow retrenchment in case of non viability of the company or PSU or OF.

bring in lateral entries by absorbing and upskilling people from the forces, BSF etc.

Find alternate products to manufacture in case current product mix turns out to be unviable or has become obsolescent.

alternately, frame the number 303 and hang it up on the wall and then go home
any retrenchment of PSU's for non-viability will come back to the govt - since the govt failed the company
it will also be used in full by the opposition for "failing the employees and also increasing unemployment"

the only recourse I can see is to open competition and say "OFB is the best - we will let them prove it" and ask them to compete with bharat forge/L&T etc. give them everything they need - R&D labs etc.
if they fail, ask them for a root cause analysis and give a chance to fix it.
shuold give them a fair chance but also keep it transparent.
Back to the chicken and egg situation.

won't work because job and pay is assured.

Even if something is made, many times products are unacceptable to the customer.

Products are not cost effective because expenses are padded and wastage + rejections are high. Better quality and better prices are available with private players but cannot buy

Their union management is far smarter than the govt.

the workers cannot be fired because the present laws don't support it.

Amending laws is not viable because if laws are amended, they will strike

So, we should just praise them and magically, all will be well. They will start to work like fiends

we need to be realistic.

Labor laws in India are long overdue for reforms to bring it at par with other countries.

So we have one simple choice: piss or get off the pot.

the unions have always bet on the third option: the govt will never piss and so, they can never get off the pot.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by prasan »

PSUs do work when they are corporatised. Example SBI
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by bharathp »

@chetak ji
I am for disbanding OFB and unions but also that govt shuld retain the top talent in some areas it does have. letting them compete with open market forces will cause them to shape up or fizzle out. you can give them a few chances to shape up though. the rot has been set deep and requires some effort to remove it.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

prasan wrote:PSUs do work when they are corporatised. Example SBI
SBI works, really.....

they are the largest extractive loan mafia in the banking space.

they target the vulnerable population
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

bharathp wrote:@chetak ji
I am for disbanding OFB and unions but also that govt shuld retain the top talent in some areas it does have. letting them compete with open market forces will cause them to shape up or fizzle out. you can give them a few chances to shape up though. the rot has been set deep and requires some effort to remove it.
there is no top talent to be seen anywhere here.

the ambitious ones have left a long time ago. Only the time servers and the unionized mafia are hanging around because of the extractive perks available

what's this morbid obsession with "giving chances", is it a religious thing or a civilizational thing or is it a cultural thing.

all three are fatal failures as far as business goes.

a very vocal but very tiny section of the labor is holding the country to ransom and the only response is "giving chances".

The solution has been staring us in the face for decades, as has been the "giving chances" drama

Retrench (VRS), reorganize, shape up, and deliver or shut down, and repurpose the resources to rejuvenate the economy.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by jaysimha »

https://indianpsu.com/an-open-letter-to ... ce-worker/


An open letter to the Retired Army Generals from a Retired Defence Worker!

You never questioned the MGO for proper planning of the equipment purchases, frequent change of GSQRs,
frequent retraction of RFPs, ? Who is responsible? Please have an introspection. You will get the answer.
The more you work with OFB, as Artillery has done with OFB, OFB can produce world beaters products like Dhanush.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

He does have a point.

Having said that, OFB needs to change.


It is one of the few entities in the world that are today capable of taking on the BAes and GDLS of the world.

But given its current form it will never get there.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

jaysimha wrote:
The more you work with OFB, as Artillery has done with OFB, OFB can produce world beaters products like Dhanush.
They produced the world-beating product and failed to deliver on time. The problems with Dhanush deliveries have been recounted in the Artillery thread.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Can the workers go on strike to protest this law against striking :D

Anything is possible in India with our milords..

Refer just today's news where the SC has stated that 'Preventive detention can’t be invoked over law & order fears'
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by putnanja »

Finally, the OFBs are converted to PSUs! Revolutionary reform by Indian standards.

Govt dissolves OFB, transfers employees and assets to 7 PSUs
The defence ministry has dissolved the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) with effect from October 1 and transferred its assets, employees and management to seven public sector units (PSUs), according to an official order.
...
In an order dated September 28, the defence ministry said: Government of India has decided to transfer, with effect from October 1, 2021, the management, control, operations and maintenance of these 41 production units and identified non-production units to seven government companies (wholly owned by the government of India).

According to the order, the name of the seven defence PSUs (also called DPSUs) are Munition India Limited, Armoured Vehicles Nigam Limited, Advanced Weapons and Equipment India Limited, Troop Comforts Limited, Yantra India Limited, India Optel Limited and Gliders India Limited.


...
The order said: The government has decided that all the employees of OFB (Group A, B & C) belonging to the production units and also the identified non-production units shall be transferred en masse to the new DPSUs on terms of foreign service without any deputation allowance (deemed deputation) initially for a period of two years from the appointed date (October 1).

Each of the new DPSUs is required to frame rules and regulations related to service conditions of the absorbed employees, the order noted.

Each of the DPSUs should also seek an option for permanent absorption from the employees on deemed deputation to that respective DPSU, within a period of two years, it stated.

The service conditions of the absorbed employees would not be inferior to the existing ones. A committee would be constituted by DDP (Department of Defence Production) for guiding the new DPSUs in this regard so that the absorption package given is attractive, the order mentioned.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by srin »

Wow, that is real shock and awe. Never thought they could really do it so quickly.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

I wish I could say I was shocked at the speed of this change. But given the understated yet assertive performance from the DM. I really am not.

Having said that, I hope that program management related issues with other services are also resolved with same level of assertiveness.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

Raksha Mantri gets a lot of undeserved bad press, but he has been doing a good job so far.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by SRajesh »

Jamwalji
On the same vein, can the government do something about : HAL, Naval Yards
Sorry I know its a wrong thread but speaking about breaking strangle-holds:
Meaning break HAL TO HELI-INDIA, HAL, Engine division
Will it improve the efficiency, productivity and cut the labour union troubles or not
Same goes for the Naval yards!!
Just a noob pooch.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

The issues with Indian ship building are not really at the yard level. The issue is with the equipment the MOD has to provide during the fitting out phase.

CAG had published a report regarding the availability of MFSTAR for P15 A/B ships. One ship had been waiting for her set for nearly 7 years.

An incomplete ship cannot be handed over to the fleet.

Similar issues have dogged other classes of ships as well including Vikrant.

HAL also have MOD problems. So breaking up is not really going to make a difference.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Vicky »

Rsatchi wrote:Jamwalji
On the same vein, can the government do something about : HAL, Naval Yards
Sorry I know its a wrong thread but speaking about breaking strangle-holds:
Meaning break HAL TO HELI-INDIA, HAL, Engine division
Will it improve the efficiency, productivity and cut the labour union troubles or not
Same goes for the Naval yards!!
Just a noob pooch.
What's the problem with monopolies/strangleholds if they are held by state owned companies? State owned monopolies are fine. You should only find fault if inefficiencies are present, not at the fact that they are monopolies. Unlike private monopolies State owned monopolies are capable of working in the best interests of the nation.

Yards are not at fault for most construction delays or lack of R&D spending. It's MoD/Services that's the source of the problem, they don't deliver customer furnished equipment on time to the yards to avoid halting construction or they keep changing design requirements SQRs midway. They don't want to pay for fast construction either preventing capex to upgrade construction speed. MoD/DDP wants excessive dividend and has limits on R&D spending which hamstrings the yards from competing in civilian contracts.

Same case with HAL. HAL does well on their internal projects, projects go haywire due to MoD's strings/delays.

Blame MoD first before blaming their subsidiaries. The Babu's should be held accountable first for their inaction in their administration.

CSL is a good yard because it's not under MoD's control. Same with HSL, HSL went to trash after MoD took control from ShipMin and added many strings which made them unable to compete in many civilian contracts
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

The reason OFB did not work earlier was it's another govt department. What that means is there is no contract to perform to. It's an indent from one govt bureau to another. And captive customer makes OFB very uncaring. So corporatization was a must to at least have them on contract to account for.
DPSUs have contracts.
However, as chetak mentioned HAL has an OFB mindset.

Let us see.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Pratyush wrote:The issues with Indian ship building are not really at the yard level. The issue is with the equipment the MOD has to provide during the fitting out phase.

CAG had published a report regarding the availability of MFSTAR for P15 A/B ships. One ship had been waiting for her set for nearly 7 years.

An incomplete ship cannot be handed over to the fleet.

Similar issues have dogged other classes of ships as well including Vikrant.

HAL also have MOD problems. So breaking up is not really going to make a difference.

Can you please point that CAG report? Thanks, ramana
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:KaranM,
Should we have a thread only on OFB to note what are its factories and what are its deficiencies? In many threads we read ammo shortage is an issue to administer resounding slaps to Pakistan.

We started this thread on 26 September 2016 on the need to find out what's wrong with OFB. We can be happy that 5 years to that date OFB has been split up into 7 corporations and definitely for the better.

According to the order, the name of the seven defence PSUs (also called DPSUs) are Munition India Limited, Armoured Vehicles Nigam Limited, Advanced Weapons and Equipment India Limited, Troop Comforts Limited, Yantra India Limited, India Optel Limited and Gliders India Limited.


Let us monitor for a year or two to see how they perform before closing the thread.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Ramana, it was posted on the forum it self a few years ago in a tabular format.

Will have to look it up.
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Re: OFB, MoD Companies Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

Let's see if there is any improvement and they actually transform and begin to establish as a reliable and credible part of the defence supply chain


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