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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
srai
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 17 May 2017 09:58

titash wrote:
srai wrote:
At 700t, these [Janata class ASW] will be bigger than Abhay class (485t). You can expect the load out to be somewhat similar.
  • 1 x 76mm gun
  • 2 x AK-630
  • 2 × 533mm twin torpedo tubes
  • 1 x RBU-6000 (12 tubes w/ under deck auto-reload)


Folks, the sensor/weapons specs had come out earlier:

(a) 2 triple lightweight torpedo tubes for close range ASW work in shallow water.

(b) 1 ASW rocket launcher (RBU-6000 hopefully, but deck-penetration may require only RBU-2500)

...

No 76mm or 30mm cannon is to be fitted because these ships will operate very close to harbors and under shore based air cover. Just a couple of 12.7mm HMG to deal with smugglers. Also no helicopter because they're under 1000 tons.

...


For self-defense against anti-ship missiles, it would require a CIWS at the minimum.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bheeshma » 17 May 2017 10:24

Does the car nicobar class have sonar??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 17 May 2017 13:14

Titash,

My understanding is that shallow water implies seas above the continental shelf, which in the Arabian sea is quite wide.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 17 May 2017 13:45

OT but is that the remains of the ancient basin of the saraswati on the shelf just after the pakistan border...?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 17 May 2017 15:55

^^ Indus basin. And the rift isnt caused by a river because the river flow is divided into a delta

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 17 May 2017 16:16

Bheeshma wrote:Does the car nicobar class have sonar??

No, but like its predecessors SBD Mk 3 are provisioned to carry Seaking Low Frequency Dipping Sonar and Depth Charges.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SSridhar » 17 May 2017 17:49

Indian Navy rescues merchant vessel from piracy threat - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu
The Indian Navy on Tuesday rescued Liberian registered merchant vessel m v Lord Mountbatten from piracy attempts in the Gulf of Aden.

"On May 16, at 4:45 p.m., we received a distress call from m v Lord Mountbatten, 230nm southwest of Salalah in the Gulf of Aden. The vessel reported an incident of attempted piracy by two suspicious mother vessels along with seven to eight skiffs," Navy spokesperson Captain D.K. Sharma said on Wednesday.

INS Sharda, which was 30 nautical miles away that time, responded immediately. As soon as it arrived at the location, three of the skiffs "fled the area at high speed.''

The ship was deployed for anti-piracy operations on April 6 this year.

The Navy's MARCOS commandos, with the support of an armed helicopter from the ship, investigated the dhows and their skiffs by conducting boat and search operations, Captain Sharma added.

The commandos also fired shots from the light machine gun on the helicopter, following which the pirates surrendered.

The absence of any fishing gear on-board the dhows indicates piracy linked intentions, Navy officials stated.

One high calibre ALM rifle with filled magazine was found hidden on-board on one of the dhows, which were let go later.

titash
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 17 May 2017 19:22

Bheeshma wrote:Can you post the link where the specs are given? I haven't seen any link that says LWT. At 650-700 tonne there is no point if it doesn't carry 533 mm tubes. The ASW corvette is supposed to operate as far as 200 nm(370 km) and I am pretty sure we have no shore based SAM to cover it at that range and we can't have an mig-29 shadowing these everywehere


Taat-Shri,
Here you go:
http://www.grse.nic.in/eoi/EOI_ASW_SWC_R1.pdf

Still looking for the one where they specified triple-tube LWT instead of HWT. But in any case, I would expect detection ranges to be lower with the Abhay sonar (as opposed to full-size HUMSA-NG) and shallow water engagement ranges to be lower.

titash
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 17 May 2017 19:28

Aditya G wrote:Titash,

My understanding is that shallow water implies seas above the continental shelf, which in the Arabian sea is quite wide.

Image


Possible, but check this RFI...http://www.grse.nic.in/eoi/EOI_ASW_SWC_R1.pdf

They're looking to operate within 200 miles from shore. Well within range of fighter cover and helicopter support from IN/CG OPVs

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rupak » 17 May 2017 19:39

The idea for these shallow water ASW ships came from a visit to Turkey by then CNS Nirmal Verma. The Turks were using commercially available fishing sonars fitted onto inshore craft for harbour defence. The idea therefore was to have something cheap and effective.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 17 May 2017 19:40

you seem to have returned to brf after a gap of no less than a decade !!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 17 May 2017 19:43

dont hang hopes on helicopter sonar and depth charges. right now we are short of even sea kings, all of which ought to be retired.
and there is no sign of the 100 new medium asw/asuw helis the IN needs urgently.

nash
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nash » 17 May 2017 20:00

Hemant Kumar Rout‏ @Hemant_TNIE 19m19 minutes ago
More
Indian #Navy successfully test fires medium range surface-to-air #missile, developed jointly with Israel, from INS Kochi. @NewIndianXpress

Bheeshma
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bheeshma » 17 May 2017 21:41

Thanks for the links and info titash and tsarkar. I hope they consider 533 mm tubes instead of the LWT for the ASW corvettes. AK-630 should be cheap and handy air defence component but I see no mention of them.

Tsarkar,

So I guess the 250-350 tonne WJ-FAC's can all be used for coastal sub hunting. Any chance they can be armed with 324 mm LWT tube when required?

ramana
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 18 May 2017 04:57

TSarkar, What do you think of Trump asking the USN to go back to steam catapults due to high cost?

https://www.cnas.org/press/in-the-news/ ... -catapults

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 18 May 2017 05:25

Bargaining chip to ask the EMALs guys to reduce the price or else...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 18 May 2017 05:34

You folks take Trump, on such matters, seriously?

"Going back" would not only cost more, he will not be president by the time they come. Well he may not be even when the Ford comes.

srai
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 18 May 2017 06:54

^^^

When you start seeing Trump Towers propping up in Delhi, Mumbai, etc, then you will know India has the EMALS :P

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 18 May 2017 09:39

NRao wrote:You folks take Trump, on such matters, seriously?

"Going back" would not only cost more, he will not be president by the time they come. Well he may not be even when the Ford comes.

Aye

it seems to be the beginning of the end in Wash.DC

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jayasimha » 18 May 2017 11:31

Indian Navy and Space Application Centre, Ahmedabad Sign Memorandum of Understanding

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=161791
Print ReleasePrintXClose
Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
15-May-2017 15:54 IST
Indian Navy and Space Application Centre, Ahmedabad Sign Memorandum of Understanding

Vice Admiral SN Ghormade, AVSM, NM, Director General Naval Operations and Mr Tapan Misra, Director, Space Application Centre (SAC) signed a ‘Memorandum of Understanding on Data Sharing and Scientific cooperation in the field of Meteorology and Oceanology’ on 15 May 2017 at SAC, Ahmedabad. With this initiative, both the organisations have embarked on a common platform of mutual cooperation, wherein the scientific advancements and expertise achieved by SAC would be synergised into the Indian Naval efforts to keep the Nation’s Defence Forces in step with rapid development in the field of Environment Sciences and Satellite Data acquisition technology. This has further boosted the already established collaboration between the two organisations.

The broad areas of cooperation include, sharing of non-confidential observational data for pre-launch sensor calibration and post launch satellite data validation, operational use of SAC generated weather products, provisioning expertise for installation of various satellite data processing modules at Naval METOC organisations, carrying out calibration and validation for ocean models, transfer of technology to generate weather information, training on latest technology and sharing of subject matter experts between the organisations for effective knowledge transfer.

This historic event was witnessed by various scientists from Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences Group/ SAC, Principal Director Naval Oceanology and Meteorology and Chief Staff Officer, Gujarat Naval Area.

DKS/AC

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 18 May 2017 13:44

If we only take a leaf out've the Soviets,who used the same dipping sonar for both Pauk/Abhay class ASW corvettes and the KA-28 ASW helos!
We'e still using the KA-28s.All we have to do is to acquire more of the same,upgraded dipping sonars and equip our CG vessels,IN OP{Vs and smaller crat with them.NUmbvers of "Janata" ASW capable vessels will dramatically increase! THis way,every port/base could possess at least 2 ASW capable vessels.

For the IN requirement as mentioned,some gun is an absolute in case the sub surfaces after being damaged,or caught on the surface/diving.Also for AA defence against enemy air attack. What I would however wish is that there is an open helo deck at the stern so that land-based ASW helos ,med. sized can operate from these platforms greatly aiding in prosecuting an enemy sub. In fact a catamaran twin-hull design would be best as its draft would be smaller than a mono-hull,provide a wider beam ,for helo deck ops,weaponry,and more stable at sea.It would also give faster speed than a mono-hull. The Pauks based upon the Tarantula class missile corvette hull,also have a top speed of around 35+ kts.

Coming back to the sub vs carrier debate.I was flipping through archives and found a superb piece by a former V.Adm.,Arun Kumar Singh,former C-in-C ENC and former DG CG as well.He too advocates conventional carriers (two for the price of one N-CV)and saving the extra money for subs and other reqd. assets.PL. read carefully the two highlighted paragraphs ,which echo what we've been consistently saying on BRF.Enjoy it.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150602/c ... -vs-n-subs
N-carriers vs N-subs
Published Jun 2, 2015,

Photo above is of a French Nuclear capable submarine, Image used for representational purpose (Photo: AP)
The US defence secretary Ashton Carter is expected to visit Visakhapatnam on June 3 and then New Delhi on June 4-5 to sign the 10-year Indo-US Enhanced Defence Framework Agreement, and convince India to accept an American design for the recently announced indigenous 65,000-ton aircraft carrier, along with the latest American EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System) and AAWS (Advanced Arrester Wire System), and operate the latest American carrier-borne F-35C jet fighters.

In April 2015, the media reported that the defence ministry had cleared various pending projects, including funding of an initial Rs 30 crore as “seed money” to commence project work on India’s next indigenous 65,000-ton aircraft carrier, to be named INS Vishal.

The Indian Navy currently operates non-nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, i.e. the 56-year-old, 28,0000-ton, steam-driven INS Viraat and the 43,000-ton, steam-driven INS Vikramaditya. At the same time, the gas-turbine-powered 37,000-ton INS Vikrant is under construction and is expected to join the Navy in 2018. The reasons stated for the new INS Vishal are valid, i.e. for an aircraft carrier to be viable, it needs to embark at least 36 fighter aircraft and another 12 helicopters, and this is possible only on carriers larger than 65,000 tons (INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant can each embark only 18 fighters and 12 helicopters).
A debate has now started about the need or otherwise of nuclear propulsion for the proposed INS Vishal. Nuclear power is expensive to acquire, maintain and needs highly trained personnel to operate.

While nuclear power provides natural stealth to submarines by enabling them to remain totally submerged in the ocean depths for months, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is visible and detectable by electronic and satellite surveillance as it sails on the ocean surface. Additionally, while nuclear power provides long periods of propulsion without refuelling, American nuclear-powered aircraft carriers still need weekly replenishment at sea (from a non-nuclear replenishment ship) of aviation fuel, lubricants, air armaments etc, and the same replenishment ship, needs to refuel another eight more conventionally powered warships every three days (these warships protect the aircraft carrier against various enemy threats).

In 1954, the world’s first nuclear submarine, the American USS Nautilus, was commissioned. It operated on LEU (low enriched uranium, i.e. below 19 per cent enrichment), and this reactor fuel enabled the single reactor submarine to operate for two years before uranium refuelling, and provided a total of 200 days sailing at economic speed.

Reactor uranium fuelling is expensive and time consuming. To overcome this shortcoming, the Americans gradually increased the uranium enrichment to HEU (highly enriched uranium, i.e. 93 per cent enrichment) to enable present-day American nuclear submarines and nuclear-powered aircraft carriers to operate for 25 years, without reactor fuel change. India does not have this HEU propulsion technology yet.

Apart from nuclear or conventional propulsion, aircraft carriers are further subdivided into three categories. The first is the CATOBAR (catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery). It is the most expensive and most capable (rapid aircraft launch rate of one aircraft every 20 seconds, while the other two carrier types can launch at one minute per aircraft). It uses one or more catapults to launch aircraft within a 150-metre deck length and arrester wires to recover the aircraft which land within a 100-metre deck length by using an aircraft tail hook to attach themselves to one of the three or four arrester wires.

Earlier, American aircraft carriers used steam catapults and hydraulic arrester wires, but now the latest 2015 American Ford class carrier will operate the new EMALS and AAWS. These two new systems, which are now on offer to the Indian Navy, require the aircraft carrier to produce three times more electric power than earlier CATOBAR designs. Ideally it would need two powerful nuclear reactors of the American A1B BECHTEL type, which power the new USS Gerald R. Ford, and each of which can produce 180 MWe. Unfortunately, the Americans are not willing to transfer nuclear reactor propulsion technology. As a result India will have a non-nuclear, gas-turbine -powered, but still very expensive INS Vishal.

The second type of carrier is the STOVL (short take-off and vertical landing) type that is the simplest and cheapest. INS Viraat is an example of STOVL, where the sub-sonic Sea Harrier jets take off (without catapult) in about 200 metres deck length from a ski jump ramp, and land vertically. The American supersonic F-35B is the latest stealth jet fighter capable of such short take-off and vertical landing operations.

The third type of carrier is the STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery), which is used on INS Vikramaditya (and also for the INS Vikrant under construction). Here the Russian MiG-29K or the Indian light combat aircraft takes off from 200 metres deck length (without catapult) from a ski jump ramp and lands in 100 metres deck length using its tail hook to catch one of three hydraulic arrester wires.

The UK has got nuclear reactor technology for its nuclear submarines, but has wisely decided that its next two 65,000-ton aircraft carriers (due for commissioning in 2018 and 2020) will be non-nuclear, STOVL type and conventionally powered by gas turbines. The aircraft selected are the American F-35B jets. These British carriers are estimated to cost about $4 billion each (the new American nuclear Ford class 100,000-ton carrier with EMALS and AAWS costs $13 billion).

Before India embarks on a new 65,000-ton aircraft carrier and its aircraft, it needs to look closely at funding availability (for aircraft, ship, spares, training etc), state of indigenous marine nuclear powered reactor technology, availability of indigenous uranium supplies (and whether our limited uranium stocks are better used for indigenous nuclear powered submarines), and, finally, vulnerability of the aircraft carrier to Chinese nuclear submarines and the new-shore-based 1,500-km-range DF-21D, anti-aircraft carrier ballistic missile system which may be based on Pakistan’s coast. The aircraft would need to be a fifth-generation stealth fighter like the American F-35B (STOVL) or a modified version of the Russian FGFA (STOBAR) planned for the Indian Air Force. To put it simply, India could build two STOVL or two STOBAR non-nuclear carriers for the cost of one nuclear CATOBAR carrier. The money saved could be gainfully used for indigenous production of critically needed nuclear and conventional submarines.

The writer retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 18 May 2017 15:13

Positive news on the A&N front.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201705 ... l-station/
XCpt:
ndia Clears Way to Expand Naval Air Station in Indian Ocean © AP Photo/ Rafiq Maqbool
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE

In a bid to strengthen its maritime capability close to the world's busiest shipping route, the Indian Navy has got the environmental clearance to expand Shibpur, the naval air station in the northern part of the Andaman Island.

NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — Shibpur naval air station will be the second large airstrip after India had commissioned and later expanded naval air station Baaz at Campbell Bay on the Great Nicobar Island. Indian armed forces operate Dornier, Mi-8, Chetak aircraft from NAS Shibpur airfield, which after the expansion would be approximately 100 hectares and serve larger aircraft.

India's naval air station at Campbell Bay on Great Nicobar Island is located 240 km from the mouth of the Malacca Straits. Indian Navy considers this to be a vital geo-strategic advantage.

"Not only do they provide the Nation with a commanding presence in the Bay of Bengal, the Islands also serve as our window into East and South East Asia." India has progressively developed Port Blair as home to amphibious platforms, naval offshore patrol vessels and fast attack craft. One of the primary functions of INS Baaz is to provide information, based on "airborne maritime surveillance", Admiral Nirmal Verma, Chief of the Naval Staff said.

In March this year, Indian Navy had commissioned the first of its eight amphibious landing craft at tri-service command headquarter in Port Blair. This landing craft is meant to transport 145 tons of military equipment like main battle tanks, armored vehicles and 165 fully-equipped troops.

India also has an IAF base at Car Nicobar, named Carnic air force base and naval base Kardip, located on Camorta Island, a part of the Nancowry group of islands. INS Kardip was commissioned in 1973, serves a key function of providing operational support to Indian Navy and Coast Guard ships operating in and around the Nicobar Islands.


Another report.
Chinese submarines increasing forays into the Indian Ocean Brigadier Arun Bajpai (Retd)17 May, 2017

China is investing 47 billion dollars in Pakistan in the China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) which involves building of road and rail network between Xinjiang province of China and the Gwadar port in the Arabian sea in Pakistan – a distance of 3000 km – along with building of thermal power plants to supply electricity to Pakistan.
Nobody should have any doubt, and least of all, India, that although all this money is being invested on loan which Pakistan is obliged to pay back, but it will not be able to do so, resulting in Pakistan becoming a colony of China.
In Focus The military angle of this whole exercise is to hem in India from east, west and the north. This leaves only south where the Indian Ocean exists. There also, China is hell bent upon establishing its permanent presence. One can only hope that Indian political masters are foreseeing these developing threats to India's security.

On April 19-20, Indian Navy's long range surveillance aircraft Poseidon-8 detected a Chinese submarine just as it crossed Strait of Malacca. The Chinese claimed that this submarine was part of their anti-piracy task force. Chinese Navy under the pretext of anti-piracy efforts has been regularly sending their nuclear and conventional submarines to the Indian Ocean since 2013. They say that they want to protect the Gulf of Aden. But what role a submarine can play in anti-piracy is anybody's guess? This is just an excuse to gradually flank India from the south while also enhancing their naval activity.

We must not forget that China is extensively forging maritime links with Indian Ocean Rim countries. It is setting up a naval base at Djibouti and sooner than later, will set up a naval base at Gwadar Port in Pakistan. One should also not forget the Hambantota Port in Sri Lanka where China has invested 8 billion dollars.
While China is encircling us both from sea and land, having started efforts in this direction almost a decade back, what are our Indian netas doing? Nothing!

It is really pathetic to note that more than three decades back, the Indian Navy was a blue-water navy whilethe Chinese Navy, just a brown-water navy. But today, while we still stand where we were decades back,the Chinese Navy has surpassed our country's navy by leaps and bounds. Today, China has 50 submarines with 10 of them nuclear-capable.On the other hand,while we had 19 submarines a few years back, we are now down to just 13 rickety submarines, of which, one is in such condition that the navy is not even sure whether it will come back to the surface, if sent on a mission.

The problem with the top brass of Indian leaders is that they feel happy in taking advice from National Security Advisors who are either bureaucrats or IPS as in the case of current Indian NSA Ajit Doval. But, the big question is, what these people know about military matters?
Way back in 2003, taking lessons from the Kargil War, the erstwhile NDA government had decided to create the post of Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) for giving single window advice to political masters and to coordinate the functioning of the three defence services. Till date, it has not been implemented. Lot of other recommendations have also not been implemented because the bureaucrats sitting in the Ministry of Defence and lording over the armed forces, do not allow this to happen lest they lose their authority, pelf and perks, never mind if the country goes to the dogs.
The threat to India from China-Pakistan nexus is great and it is multiplying at an alarming rate. Pakistan has sold its soul to China.
It has only one agenda, and that is to destabilise India by attacking its diversity. However, Pakistan does not have the means to take on India, and that is where China comes in. Both these countries will go to any length to break India apart. That is why it is very important for Indian political rulers to understand the gravity of the situation.

The window of opportunity is still open to us to strengthen our navy but it will not remain open for long.
We must find funds and strengthen our navy especially its submarine arm. We must go all out to produce five to six Arihant class submarines with mounted nuclear ballistic missiles. We must have at least two more aircraft careers so that at any point of time, we can field two-career-borne task forces. The post of CDS must be created without any further delay.
A synergy must be created between civil military relations before it is too late.

Read more at: http://www.merinews.com/article/chinese ... 6.shtml&cp

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 18 May 2017 17:57

Yet another report from the FT. Ck the link for the chart showing China's enormous numbers when compared to the erst of Asia,even combined!

https://www.ft.com/content/21c1da2c-3ad ... 27b8a20f23
Asian submarine race raises security concerns

Navies expected to deploy 250 advanced vessels in western Pacific within eight years
Read next
Japan uses new defence law to escort US vessel

Chinese submarines sail ahead of warships during a fleet review © AP
Jeevan Vasagar in Singapore and Michael Peel in Bangkok

A rapid build-up of submarines in the western Pacific is fuelling Asian demand for vessels with advanced technology, defence groups say. 
The number of submarines in the region is expected to rise to 250 from 200 within eight years, according to Singapore’s defence ministry, which warned this week of a growing risk of “miscalculations at sea”.

Quiet vessels with long-range firepower pose a challenge for planners seeking to keep Asian sea lanes open, said contractors and analysts gathered at a maritime defence exhibition in Singapore. 

“The region is growing submarine capability quicker than anywhere else on the planet at the moment,” said Brett Reed, responsible for Southeast Asia defence sales at Austal, the Australian shipbuilder. “[Asian] navies want to be able to search for, detect and prosecute submarines.”

The latest increase in naval capabilities came this week when Singapore, which has the biggest defence budget in Southeast Asia, announced the purchase of two submarines from Germany’s ThyssenKrupp. 

Singapore’s defence ministry said the vessels would have modern combat systems and “air-independent” propulsion technology that makes them quieter and allows them to stay submerged for longer. 

“If programmes proceed as projected, major change is afoot in the submarine operational picture in the region,” said Paul Burton, Asia-Pacific defence director at IHS Jane’s. “The common thread running through these developments is the introduction of increasingly modern, capable and quiet submarines.” 

Thailand’s military junta last month approved a contentious plan to spend $393m on the first of three Chinese submarines. 


Critics question the need for the vessels, since Bangkok is not engaged in any significant maritime dispute and the Gulf of Thailand is shallow. The military has defended the purchase, saying submarines can be used for exploration as well as defence. 

Australia, India, Pakistan, South Korea and Indonesia plan to expand and modernise their submarine fleets. 

Even Myanmar, one of Southeast Asia’s poorest countries, has announced a plan to buy a submarine if budgets permit. “Our neighbours have submarines and we want them as well,” Major General Myint Nwe, deputy defence minister, said this month.

Rob Hewson of Saab, the Swedish defence group, said: “Having the ability to detect and track and potentially counter somebody’s else submarines is a hot topic in this region at the moment.” Mr Hewson said there was also mounting Asian interest in airborne early warning and maritime patrol systems.

Systems on display at the IMDEX naval defence show in Singapore included one Saab promotes as ideal for tracking “super-quiet” submarines. The equipment uses a combination of sonar buoys that can be deployed from an aircraft and an onboard acoustic processing system to filter out a submarine’s sonic signature from background noise. 

Saab, which is competing with Lockheed Martin to supply fighter jets to India, was also interested in pitching for New Delhi’s proposed submarine modernisation, Mr Hewson said. 

“India has French submarines at the moment,” he said. “They are now looking at other options for the next batch and that we think will be a more open competition . . . which is potentially very interesting for us.” 

China’s naval ambitions have set the pace, with plans to expand its submarine fleet to as many as 78 by the end of the decade from 62 last year, according to a Pentagon analysis. 

The 2017 edition of Jane’s Fighting Ships shows the 10 countries of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations had 16 submarines between them, half of them in Vietnam. 

At a maritime security conference alongside the defence industry show, Mohamad Maliki, a junior defence minister in Singapore, called for navies in the region to abide by mutually agreed rules to “avoid unintended confrontations and accidents at sea”.


PS: AS I've been saying,China will have almost 80 subs by 2020.India? One dozen in fit condition? If we're lucky.

ramana
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 18 May 2017 20:07

Philip, Who owns Saab now?
I see a lot of Anglo names at the helm in Saab.

During Rajiv Gandhi days there was a unstated reason to favor Swedes.
Their PM Olafe Palme was of Indian origin.
Unfortunately Indian Congress party Bofors scam poisoned the waters.
Not much chance of relationship going further.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 18 May 2017 21:51

Philip wrote:.... In fact a catamaran twin-hull design would be best as its draft would be smaller than a mono-hull,provide a wider beam ,for helo deck ops,weaponry,and more stable at sea.It would also give faster speed than a mono-hull. ...


I thought cats are slower than single hull designs and thus unsuitable to submarine chasing.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bheeshma » 18 May 2017 22:20

ramana wrote:Their PM Olafe Palme was of Indian origin.
.


Where did you hear that??? Just for reference Preet bharara, Bobby Jindal is of Indian origin but no Indian would touch these slime balls with a 10 ft pole.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 19 May 2017 18:39

No cats are faster.The USN uses Oz cats fro its fast logistics vessel.

Ramana,v.good piece by MR Srinivasan on the desi N-policy in the Hindu today.SAAB Swedish owned.AB owns the largest stake.However,Sweden an the US have the closest of mil/intel relationships along with Norway.The US often uses them as proxies;Norway in Sri Lanka,MEast for example.

All our previous efforts at acquiring Swedish mil-tech was scuppered.In my opinion,a deliberate policy by you-know-who. Barring Carl Gustavs and Bofors-and we know what happened afterwards,the Viggen DPSA option was shot down and so was the Kockums sub bid in favour of HDW.That deal was allegedly the result of a favoured son,pardon the (pun!),who allegedly had his finger in the pie. Somehow our def eals with Sweden have been jinxed.I hope that if we are going in for a firang "SE" fighter,why only SE fighters i=s the big Q (why not twin-E fighters too?),then the Gripen is a fresher fighter with more potential for upgrades and assisting the LCA develop faster,which must be part of the deal since we can easily absorb 3000-400 SE light fighters as we did the MIG-21s. However,from the report below,the French are making a "Macaroon" of an offer!

http://www.atimes.com/france-ready-sell ... nes-india/
France ready to sell new fighter jets, submarines to India

Emanuele ScimiaBy EMANUELE SCIMIA MAY 19, 2017

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Under new President Emmanuel Macron, France will continue to beef up the Indian military arsenal with fighter jets and submarines. French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation and state-owned shipbuilder DCNS are in fact negotiating new deals with the Indian government for the sale of their Rafale multi-role aircraft and diesel-electric attack Scorpene-class submarine respectively.

Last Sunday, coinciding with Macron’s inauguration, Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier revealed to French daily Sud-Ouest that its company was talking to India about the sale of a further 57 Rafales. *(At what prohibitive price may we ask?)

Last September, Dassault Aviation secured an US$8.8 billion contract to supply the Indian Air Force with 36 Rafale jets. It is said that, once inducted, they will form two squadrons. One will be stationed in the state of Haryana, near the Pakistani border, and the other in West Bengal to face possible threats posed by China on the eastern front.

The new batch of 57 Rafale aircraft is intended for the Indian Navy, which must still develop the aviation complex for its domestically built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. The Indian government says the new flattop will be delivered in December 2018, but a national auditor reported last year that it might not be combat-ready before 2023. New Delhi has weighed other options for a new fighter platform for its aircraft-carrier force, including Sweden’s Saab Gripen, the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Russia’s MiG-29K.

India’s air force needs new warplanes to replace its aging fleet of 670 fighter jets, made up in large part of Russian-built Su-30MKI, MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes. In response, US defense giant Lockheed Martin is ready to transfer the production line of its F-16 combat aircraft to India, as Saab points to setting up a production platform in the South Asian country for its Gripen-E.

India is still mulling whether to finalize a deal with Russia to co-develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft based on the stealthy Sukhoi PAK FA – which is completing development and testing – and upgrade its existing Su-30MKI fighters, according to recent Indian media reports.

New Scorpene subs

In addition to carrier-capable Rafales, New Delhi plans to strengthen its naval capabilities with the acquisition of three more Scorpene submarines. The Indian Navy is expected to commission two French-designed Scorpenes – the Kalvari and the Khanderi – by the end of the year. They have been constructed by Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Ltd in cooperation with DCNS as part of a $3.5 billion deal signed in 2005 to build jointly six Scorpene-class submarines.

It is worth noting that India’s Scorpenes will be equipped with BrahMos anti-ship cruise missiles. In March, the Indian Navy successfully tested this kind of supersonic projectile from the Kalvari submarine.
*(Utter crap! The Scorpenes cannot fire BMos,instead fired vastly inferior subs0nic Exocet)

The purchase of Scorpenes will help India increase its asymmetric capabilities vis-à-vis China. In numerical and qualitative terms, New Delhi’s submarine fleet cannot compete with that of Beijing. The People’s Liberation Army Navy can deploy 67 submarines, of which nine are nuclear-powered. In contrast, the Indian Navy now has 13 conventionally powered and two nuclear-powered submarines, according to data from Global Firepower 2017 and the Nuclear Threat Initiative.

For its part, France is trying to snatch ever-larger shares of the Indian defense market, challenging in particular Russia’s traditional role as New Delhi’s top arms supplier. Over the past decade, Russian arms transfers to India have totaled $22 billion, while France’s military-related deliveries to the Asian giant have reached $550 billion, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute reports.*(Something wrong with this fig.Perhaps $5.5B)

The French-Russian competition to expand presence in the high-growth Asian-Pacific defense market is not only focused on India, but also on Southeast Asian countries. For instance, Dassault Aviation is in talks with Malaysia over the delivery of 18 Rafales in a deal valued at about $2 billion.

*(How come we are reportedly paying around $8.8B for 36? Going by this report,it should be just under $4B for the 36.We seem to be paying double for what the Malaysians are going to pay! What gives?) :shock:

The Royal Malaysian Air Force aims to replace its outdated fleet of Russian MiG-29 combat aircraft. The Russian Su-35 is also a contender in the bidding process, as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen.

Many competitors for France

France and India are forging a solid industrial defense partnership that suits both nations’ interests. Paris is keen to become a prominent arms provider in the Indo-Pacific region, while New Delhi is committed to modernizing its weaponry to counter potential challenges from China and Pakistan.

It remains to be seen, however, whether Rafale and Scorpene programs will meet the expectations of Paris and New Delhi in the near future, given that French defense producers have to deal with many competitors in the Asia-Pacific region and the Indian rearmament scheme lags behind that of China, both financially and conceptually.


The extra 3 Scorpenes may be acquired only becos the IN hasn't decided on the design of the 75I futuristic sub. Therefore more of the same.However,the Scorpenes,non-AIP too come in at around $700M+ each,more than twice that of an improved Kilo,which won a duel against a Yanqui N-sub in a recent exercise too.Vietnam got all 6 new 636.3s for just over $2B. Moreover,the Scorpene's secrets were spilled in a massive leak in the OZ media.Scorpenes cannot fire BMos,onl;y inferior Exocets. Some in the IN are allegedly against acquiring more of thempreferring more N-subs instead,true force mul;tipliers with which we can counter the PLAN's huge fleet of subs both conventional and N-powered.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 19 May 2017 19:06

ramana wrote:TSarkar, What do you think of Trump asking the USN to go back to steam catapults due to high cost?

https://www.cnas.org/press/in-the-news/ ... -catapults


Steam Catapults are very hard on aircraft because of transients (uneven and uncontrolled power surges), and have high maintenance needs. Because of these stresses, as well as landing stresses, naval aircraft have less TTL than land based aircraft.

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... 7Apr16.pdf
VIKRANT commissioned in March 1961. After an intensive six week work up in Malta, she arrived in India in November 1961 with two air squadrons embarked:
(a) INAS 300, the first operational squadron of the Navy comprising Seahawk `Fighters Ground Attack' (FGA). The first flight of Seahawks had been constituted in end 1959 and the squadron had commissioned in Britain on 7 July 1960. The Seahawk was a well proven jet aircraft, having been in operation with the British Navy since 1953 and also in the German and Netherland Navies. A total of 74 Seahawks were eventually acquired, 46 from Britain between 1960 and 1964 and 28 from Germany in 1966.


Look at the high number of fighters acquired from 1959 to 1966.

EM technology is very reliable without transients and with much lesser maintenance requirements.

China got the core technology via German Transrapid MagLev trains (trains is just an excuse just like Varyag was supposed to be a floating casino at Macau).

Problem with US is that every military program has become a huge pork barrel gravy train with the entire political and bureaucratic system on payroll, and that has caused programs to be long drawn and delayed.

There are reports of LM F-35 program managers more interested in building their lake side houses rather than designing and building the aircraft.

Good technology rotted by a corrupt system.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 19 May 2017 19:14

The number of EMALS launches from land are in the triple digits (More than 450 by 2014) and the first from_ship launch will likely occur this fall-winter once the vessel is commissioned. How far is the Chinese/Russian EMALS program? EMALS on ship testing is vessel-delivery dependent..the complete system as a stand-alone unit has been launching aircraft for nearly the last 7 years.

The purpose of the first in class vessel is to fully establish the envelop and sort out the growing pains and shortcommings of the system which is precisely what will be done in an extended at sea environment starting a few months from now. Same with the Electro Magnetic Rail Gun. Less than 8 years from their final program design review, they had delivered 100% of the EMALS hardware to the ship yard for instalation on the first in class vessel. Again, if someone can get this out of the door faster, have at it but show us reliable time-lines and how fast has cutting edge technology been delivered from concept to operational usage elsewhere such as China, Russia, France etc keep in mind that EMALS, AAG or any other stand alone system is essentially slaved to a new vessel_class's timelines and not independent from it. They are not pulling out the Nimitz from their roster and installing EMALS on them.

http://www.navair.navy.mil/img/uploads/ ... _final.jpg

Below is a Video of a C-2 being launched by EMALS (first launched in 2011). Any non US EMALS video launching similar weight class crafts from a "rapidly" developed prototype or test system?


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prem » 20 May 2017 00:03

Bheeshma wrote:
ramana wrote:Their PM Olafe Palme was of Indian origin.
Where did you hear that??? Just for reference Preet bharara, Bobby Jindal is of Indian origin but no Indian would touch these slime balls with a 10 ft pole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajani_Palme_Dutt

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby arun » 21 May 2017 15:40

X Posted from the Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017 thread.

IAI press release announces further LRSAM Contract. This one covering 4 naval vessels and valued at USD 630 Million.

Any idea what class of vessels this order is for?

IAI Signs Another Significant Deal in India: Will Supply $630 Million Worth of LRSAM Air & Missile Defense Systems to Indian Government Company BEL

May 21, 2017

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) announced today it has been awarded an additional, $630 million- contract for supply of LRSAM air & missile defense systems for four ships of the Indian navy. The contract will be carried out, for the first time, with Indian government company BHARAT ELECTRONICS LIMITED )BEL), which serves as the main contractor in the project as part of India's "Make in India" policy. Prior to signing the contract, the System was successfully tested last week in India as part of operational interception trial aboard India's navy ship, demonstrating again the System's operational capabilities in a representative scenario with genuine target.

The trial scenario started with the launch and engagement of the target. The MFSTAR radar aboard the Indian naval ship has identified the air-borne threat and has tracked it over its flying course. The data was sent to the command center of the weapon system which launched the intercepting missile into orbit. Having been successfully launched, the missile has navigated itself to the target. During its flight, it engaged the target, aligned its course, hit it and destroyed it. All components of the weapon system have successfully met the goals set to them.

Joseph Weiss, IAI president and CEO, said, "The new contract adds to other deals signed in the last decade by IAI with India's defense forces, reinforcing IAI's global leadership position in air and missile defense systems. The inclusion of Indian governmental company BEL for the first time, is a step up in our relationship with the Indian industry as part of the 'Make in India' policy. This unique project represents the close collaboration between India's DRDO, IAI and the defence forces of both countries. We will proceed to implementing it with joint efforts."

Boaz Levi, Executive Vice President and General Manager of Systems, Missiles & Space Group said: "We take pride, along with our partners in India, in the great results of the trail conducted last week, which reestablishes the System's reliability and quality as well as its advanced technological capabilities. IAI is in an accelerated process to supply the various air and missile defense systems to the client. We will continue to support our partners in India in advancing the industry and security of both countries."

LRSAM is an advanced air and missile defense system, a unique joint development by IAI and India's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in collaboration with IAI subsidiary ELTA, RAFAEL, various Indian companies including BEL, L&T, BDL and other private Indian companies. The system comprises several key state-of-the-art elements, advanced phased-array radar (MFSTAR), command and control system, launchers and missiles with advanced RF seekers. The system provides the ultimate protection against a variety of aerial, naval and air born threats and is operational with the Indian Air Force, Indian Navy and Israel Defense Forces and in the near future with Indian Army.


IAI Press Release:

IAI Signs Another Significant Deal in India: Will Supply $630 Million Worth of LRSAM Air & Missile Defense Systems to Indian Government Company BEL

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 21 May 2017 20:54

Indian Navy finds missing Maldivian boat

MALE: The Indian Navy on Sunday said it has located a Maldivian landing craft which had gone missing two days back, and all crew members are safe.

The landing craft Maria 3 was travelling from K Thulusdhoo, an island in the Maldives archipelago, to another island, L Gan, on Thursday when it went missing.

The Indian Navy had sent a Kora-class corvette, INS Kirch, and a Dornier aircraft to locate the missing boat.

Indian Ambassador to the Maldives Akhilesh Mishra applauded the crew of the Indian Navy Dornier, Indian Navy ALH, and INS Kirch and their Maldives National Defence Force (MNDF) colleagues for their exemplary coordination and cooperation to ensure success of the humanitarian operation.

"I feel very proud of the professionalism, unflinching courage and commitment to duty displayed by the Indian naval officers in undertaking the search and rescue operation in an extremely challenging weather," the Ambassador said.

On Saturday evening the Dornier picked a vessel floating around 60 nautical miles away from its last known position, and informed the ship which was around 50 nautical miles away, the Indian Navy said.

The boat, which had its forward ramp collapsed and was unable to propel, was then located by INS Kirch.

"Kirch has confirmed all crew members are safe. MNDF has been informed," Navy spokesperson Captain D.K. Sharma said.

A joint boarding party was sent with first light to provide assistance, the spokesperson said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chaitanya » 21 May 2017 21:08

Government gives green signal to build worth over Rs 20,000 crore

In a major move to ramp up naval strength, the Defence Ministry has given an in-principle approval for construction of four amphibious assault ships, also called the Landing Platform Docks (LPD), in the private sector at a cost of over Rs 20,000 crore.
...
The long-pending project was given green signal by the Defence Acquisition Council, the top decision-making body of the Ministry, at its meeting yesterday, informed sources told PTI.
...
The meeting was chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley. Earlier, the Ministry had indicated that two LPDs will be built by state-run Hindustan Shipyard Limited, Visakhapatnam, while select private firms will be awarded contract to construct two others.
...
The sources said RDEL and Larsen and Toubro will be asked next week to submit fresh commercial bids for the four LPDs.
...
Each of the ships are likely to be in the range of 30,000 and 40,000 tonnes. ???

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 22 May 2017 01:54

Found a nice image of INS Vikramaditya showing the C-Wiz setup clearly.

Image

- 1 x FCS mounted atop stern mast. It could be Lynx or STGR. The satcons have been moved to the island.
- 2 x AK-630
- 2 x Barak-1 VLS 8 Cell (total 16 rounds)

There are EO turrets beside the AKs but I am not sure what they are for.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 22 May 2017 01:56

INS Astradharini

1 TT for LWT and HWT each

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby siddhu » 22 May 2017 02:01

chaitanya wrote:Government gives green signal to build worth over Rs 20,000 crore

In a major move to ramp up naval strength, the Defence Ministry has given an in-principle approval for construction of four amphibious assault ships, also called the Landing Platform Docks (LPD), in the private sector at a cost of over Rs 20,000 crore.
...
The long-pending project was given green signal by the Defence Acquisition Council, the top decision-making body of the Ministry, at its meeting yesterday, informed sources told PTI.
...
The meeting was chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley. Earlier, the Ministry had indicated that two LPDs will be built by state-run Hindustan Shipyard Limited, Visakhapatnam, while select private firms will be awarded contract to construct two others.
...
The sources said RDEL and Larsen and Toubro will be asked next week to submit fresh commercial bids for the four LPDs.
...
Each of the ships are likely to be in the range of 30,000 and 40,000 tonnes. ???


A Noob question? How much time it might take to make these two LPD?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 07:03

Admin note: This is Indian Navy News & Discussion. You have been asked not to post random non-Indian stuff in such threads! Two day ban

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 22 May 2017 07:24

siddhu wrote:


A Noob question? How much time it might take to make these two LPD?



So the LPDs are now 30-40K tons again? There no 40K tons LPDs anywhere in the world. Ships of that size are LHDs which are just step below carriers.

Maybe India will be the first with a giant sized landing dock. But more likely the DDM is screwing things up again in their reporting.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby yensoy » 22 May 2017 11:48

chola wrote:So the LPDs are now 30-40K tons again? There no 40K tons LPDs anywhere in the world. Ships of that size are LHDs which are just step below carriers.

Maybe India will be the first with a giant sized landing dock. But more likely the DDM is screwing things up again in their reporting.


From a better written article http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/policy/centre-clears-the-decks-for-20000cr-warship-project/article9709258.ece?homepage=true, it looks like they will be more reasonable 20000t ships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 22 May 2017 12:20

Sweden's new A-26 Tomahawk capable diesel-elec/AIP sub.A module can be added to the basic design depending upon the customer's wish list. Ck the Sputnik link for the pic of the sub.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201705 ... -missiles/
Sweden Unveils Model of Its First Submarine With Tomahawk Missile Capability © Photo: YouTube/Military HD Videos
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
17:37 19.05.2017
Sweden’s Saab aerospace and defense company has unveiled its first conventional diesel-electric-powered submarine designed for using the Tomahawk Land Attack Missile (TLAM). The model was demonstrated at the IMDEX Asia 2017 show in Singapore.


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