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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Viv S
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 06 Dec 2017 03:37

Vivek K wrote:Please read it again. It is quite clear and I can offer no further explanation. The poster in question has free hand to lower Indian morale by attributing Indian achievements to ONE foreign nation. He has fought pitched battles with advocates of Indian MIC for decades now bad mouthing Indian efforts to locally produce effective weapon systems. Every post about an Indian accomplishment is followed by a post from the said poster deriding the accomplishment.

On the LUH:-
Philip wrote:Yaas,we've been hearing about it like the IJT.At least the IJT has shown that it can fly ....and crash,thrice! :rotfl:


On a IAF Su-30 crash:-
Philip wrote:Nevertheless,the aircraft that crashed needs to be identified as from which batch it arrived,the latest aircraft being manufactured with desi materials upto 70$ indigenous. Previous reports said that the service availability of the MKIs were hampered due to poor maintenance,spares shortage and engine problems.The global record of SU-30s in service with other nations must also be examined. Whether the aircraft was an "India built/origin" one,or from Russian import kits.

nachiket
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 06 Dec 2017 04:15

That Vivek Pralhadan article contains a lot of nonsense. The entire "Moscow Heists" portion of it is ridiculous. Cryogenic Engines for Agni?

It was clear from the start that the cryogenic engines would go into the missile and ballistic program. Source informs that Head of Russian space agency also had to be decieved.

Really?

Plus there is the stuff like the Russians commissioning 70(!) Akulas. Add to that the mysterious (CNS) he seem to quote as a source. I assume he means Chief of Naval Staff. If so why doesn't he mention him by name saying Admiral so-and-so? I've never seen a serious article put together like that.

Why should we believe anything in that article?

Bart S
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bart S » 06 Dec 2017 06:26

^Katehon is a bullshit website with a history of blatantly anti-India and pro-Pakistan/China fake news and conspiracy theories, this website has been discussed several times in that context on BR already. Surprised to see that it is being quoted as some kind of credible source.

Even leaving Katehon and such websites aside, all this stuff is speculation and conspiracy theories at best, the only credible source is stuff that officials involved with the project state on the record.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2017 07:28

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcUhtkEBlpp/ --> Incredible footage of Navy divers jumping off their ship to rescue fishermen in cyclonic conditions off the coast of Kerala/Lakshadweep.

:shock: I would not jump in that water, no matter how much money you paid me. That is why I will never be a navy diver.

Gagan
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 09:56

These men are amphibious fishes, jumping into the water with their flippers on.
I guess they just had the time to take their watches out, put the flippers on and dive

deejay
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 06 Dec 2017 10:34

Vivek K wrote:
deejay wrote:
Kindly explain the bold part of your statement above.

Please read it again. It is quite clear and I can offer no further explanation. The poster in question has free hand to lower Indian morale by attributing Indian achievements to ONE foreign nation. He has fought pitched battles with advocates of Indian MIC for decades now bad mouthing Indian efforts to locally produce effective weapon systems. Every post about an Indian accomplishment is followed by a post from the said poster deriding the accomplishment. Yet no action has been taken against him on BRF - for decades while those that have responded to the trolling and flame baiting have been at times banned.

Read what you will in my post. Every Indian admires and respects the men that make up that force. This poster is denigrating the nation and its accomplishments by singlemindedly pushing his agenda of pushing foreign products and bad mouthing EVERY Indian product and industry.

Read other comments about him
1. he extent of pimping for Russian military hardware that happens in BRF forums by a few is outrageous.

Almost every post, however small, on Dhruv, Tejas, Insead, submarines is followed by at least one post dissing the Indian stuff and two more posts plugging the Russian Maal! Mind-boggling and extremely sad!

Hope mods bring some antidote to this infection!

2. Long standing mole! Has been to many meetups in person, difficult to ban, plus he has selective hearing and thick skin (Trolling to perfection!)


How come that when there is quite a bit of concern about the tone and tenor of the posters writings that there is no action taken against him?


Vivek, thanks for the long reply but I wanted to know what you meant by this.

Vivek K wrote:It is remarkable to see corruption of even the perspective of ex-armed forces personnel by the line being pushed here. The belief in foreign suppliers over domestic, neglecting the benefits of local MIC, is quite mind boggling. This completes the story of absolute corruption of Indian mind, body and thought.

Repugnant though it is, the overriding thought in my mind is - paradise lost!

So when should we all start learning Russian because they helped us with the ATV and in 1971? All hail Putin and dethrone Modi!


Firstly, I am not sure Phillip is ex military but more importantly opinions of individuals cannot be loaded on entire groups.

As a poster everyone is free to have views. Calling names, branding groups, name calling or "othering" someone, some group or entities is not a good practice irrespective of who does it. If you have issues with someones post, use the report feature.

Also, do not jump to conclusions on action taken against him. Your conclusions are not correct.

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 06 Dec 2017 10:57

Deejay - I thought that the poster was ex-military. His profile states he is a "consultant". I know some such types. I I've read the posters flame wars with knowledgeable posters like JCage and others with total disgust. And that line of posting has not wavered to his discredit.

It is very disappointing to see Indian products ambushed unethically. I will bow away with that.

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 06 Dec 2017 11:15

Everyone has his or her information boundary.My posts are based upon my sources of info,open and otherwise and I'm sure many members have sources and names which they too cannot reveal for the good of the nation.We also cloak our identities for obvious reasons-as many a slip has been discovered to have been due to loose talk on social media.If anyone disagrees,they can do so in a civilised manner.casting aspersions ,labelling individuals as unpatriotic,whatever,jumping to conclusions subjectively smacks of both immaturity and ignorance,as well as demonstrating behaviour unacceptable of gentlemen.To agree to disagree is common practice especially amongst diplomats,representing their nations.Otherwise we would be in a perpetual state of conflict.This practice would also suit BRF very well,after all we're on the same side.

Just for the record,there has been no aspersion cast upon "Indian products".esp. the ATV.It has been a huge success.But we have to acknowledge the help we received,be honest and not pretend that we invented the wheel! After all if we knew everything about designing and building an N-sub and sub N-reactor,why did we need hundreds of Ru technical experts embedded in the programme for so many years,why were they and their ambassador present at the launch and why our PM of the time,who is in charge of the ATV project ,profusely thanked Russia for its help? My last post has further insights into the origins of the programme and the CNS' visit to Russia after which the green signal was given.I suggest those interested read it carefully ,it contains many nuggets of info.

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 06 Dec 2017 11:40

Casting aspersions, labelling individuals as unpatriotic,whatever,jumping to conclusions subjectively smacks of both immaturity and ignorance,as well as demonstrating behaviour unacceptable of gentlemen.


One hopes the same courtesy is extended by posters, towards the services, ex-services personnel (including ex-chiefs) and institutions doing the service in defense of the nation. Of course, the irony may be lost on some.. but such is life (on internet forums) :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 06 Dec 2017 14:13

Long standing mole! Has been to many meetups in person, difficult to ban, plus he has selective hearing and thick skin (Trolling to perfection!)


Banning Filipov? Goodness, no! He is an integral fabric of the forum forever. The selective hearing and amazingly thick skin makes him entertaining to say the least. His constant bleating for russki maal takes on such a comedic air that I almost look forward to reading his scandalous take on any subject. He must have had many good romps with Natasha to take the abuse we’ve piled on him over the years.

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 06 Dec 2017 14:40

As suggested by some wise veterans, better to discuss/debate the post's and not the poster's themselves

I, for one, would not have learned as much as i did about the F-35, if it were not for Philip sir's "JSF - Turkey or Talisman thread" getting the likes of Brar_w engaged.

Coming back to regular programming - is there any update on the lifts of the IAC. Were Boeing able to give any ideas/hints on their thoughts to fitting the F18s?

chetak
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 06 Dec 2017 14:48

Philip wrote:Everyone has his or her information boundary.My posts are based upon my sources of info,open and otherwise and I'm sure many members have sources and names which they too cannot reveal for the good of the nation.We also cloak our identities for obvious reasons-as many a slip has been discovered to have been due to loose talk on social media.If anyone disagrees,they can do so in a civilised manner.casting aspersions ,labelling individuals as unpatriotic,whatever,jumping to conclusions subjectively smacks of both immaturity and ignorance,as well as demonstrating behaviour unacceptable of gentlemen.To agree to disagree is common practice especially amongst diplomats,representing their nations.Otherwise we would be in a perpetual state of conflict.This practice would also suit BRF very well,after all we're on the same side.

Just for the record,there has been no aspersion cast upon "Indian products".esp. the ATV.It has been a huge success.But we have to acknowledge the help we received,be honest and not pretend that we invented the wheel! After all if we knew everything about designing and building an N-sub and sub N-reactor,why did we need hundreds of Ru technical experts embedded in the programme for so many years,why were they and their ambassador present at the launch and why our PM of the time,who is in charge of the ATV project ,profusely thanked Russia for its help? My last post has further insights into the origins of the programme and the CNS' visit to Russia after which the green signal was given.I suggest those interested read it carefully ,it contains many nuggets of info.


Phillip saar has many insights that may not be palatable to all lobbies. No need for any name calling.

Ruski maal comes free of political considerations. After the collapse of the USSR, the ruski supply chain is vastly diminished as well as truncated in ways not completely understood by India as well as the ruskis. Also, we have needlessly gone and pissed off the ukranians.

Desperate for foreign exchange and eager for mil sales, the ruskis have become unreliable as well as overpromising and under delivering but really have no equal for high tech weaponry.

the S400 is an example of a type of weapon that the amrekis just will not sell to us.

the amrekis are, well..........., the less said the better. aholes in "friendship" as well as aholes in "enemity", so take your pick and aholes you will get. When their work is done, thet use you like toilet paper and flush you down the crapper until the next time they need the toilet paper. Just ask the pakis.

The french are amoral and greedy and solely driven by profit only and they may well supply the pakis against India if the pakis paid well enough.

we just cannot negate or sideline the ruskis. They have limitations and we have to work within those parameters. The bana bana halwa is not the ruski style and it never was right from day one. The earlier systems were simpler and also really amenable to Indian jugad but the newer systems are simply beyond Indian jugad

Funding PAKFA and hoping that the family jewels will automatically follow is a peculiar Indian fallacy.

Yes I do agree that now they do not easily cooperate with us on customizing systems to our needs as well as they once did. They will not part with their family jewels (pun not intended) unless you pay their asking price. So, pay or shut up. No two ways about it.

What stops us from hiring retired ruski, ukranian weapon designers at some high cost?? the effing ego of some govt depts or insecure, incompetent govt servants??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 07 Dec 2017 02:23

chetak wrote:the amrekis are, well..........., the less said the better. aholes in "friendship" as well as aholes in "enemity", so take your pick and aholes you will get. When their work is done, thet use you like toilet paper and flush you down the crapper until the next time they need the toilet paper. Just ask the pakis".


The yanks are sharp people and they are proud of it. Well...if they use and flush you like toilet paper then you probably and most certainly deserved it. Survival and winning does not come free. You have to execute and earn it. You earn it with all the necessary abilities that you pull into it. Period.

ArjunPandit
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Dec 2017 08:05

viveks wrote:
chetak wrote:the amrekis are, well..........., the less said the better. aholes in "friendship" as well as aholes in "enemity", so take your pick and aholes you will get. When their work is done, thet use you like toilet paper and flush you down the crapper until the next time they need the toilet paper. Just ask the pakis".


The yanks are sharp people and they are proud of it. Well...if they use and flush you like toilet paper then you probably and most certainly deserved it. Survival and winning does not come free. You have to execute and earn it. You earn it with all the necessary abilities that you pull into it. Period.

Why is that not apply to Russians if they treat us like the way they do as you say then we also deserve it just extending your logic ... Not praising Russians or criticizing Americans... But tell me what have the Americans done for us so far

viveks
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 07 Dec 2017 09:34

Your invite entices me. The only thing I believe is that they value dearly ....ones accomplishments. Thats what puts them apart.

chetak
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 07 Dec 2017 10:10

viveks wrote:
chetak wrote:the amrekis are, well..........., the less said the better. aholes in "friendship" as well as aholes in "enemity", so take your pick and aholes you will get. When their work is done, thet use you like toilet paper and flush you down the crapper until the next time they need the toilet paper. Just ask the pakis".


The yanks are sharp people and they are proud of it. Well...if they use and flush you like toilet paper then you probably and most certainly deserved it. Survival and winning does not come free. You have to execute and earn it. You earn it with all the necessary abilities that you pull into it. Period.


the yanks are not very sharp otherwise they would not have made a dog's breakfast of a majority of initiatives that they have undertaken but they feel entitled to occupy the pole position in world affairs by virtue of their previous "glories"(??).

Do not make the usual mistake of not separating the amreki deep state from the amerki people. They are two very different entities

Seeing how their butts have been kicked the world over, they exhibit all the ponderous diplomatic ill grace of a drunken elephant. Just look at the amreki position in pakiland, they are now in the midst of a very public brawl with the pakis about something as crass as money and they have never exhibited anything more than brute power, threats and open bribery of the paki state, in their confused pursuit of amreki goals. Absolutely no diplomatic finesse or subtlety. The pakis are enjoying all this mud wrestling because it shows the mango paki that their two bit "leaders are" capable of taking on the mighty amrekis.

India is a wild, unruly, disorganized, jumbled up and multilayered smorgasbord of a "democratic" state with a mind of its own, which also, was never in the toilet paper class, and that has always been a major grouse of the P5 and other power blocs like the EU. With the congis it was touch and go many a time. We are unpredictable and refuse to be pigeonholed.

viveks
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 07 Dec 2017 10:33

I dont want to comment on this further...but there is an outlook to be maintained here....some for the sured appeasement of the folks who dont seem to value the contribution made. Maybe they did expect something more from the already challenged folks....something that put their expectations at ease.....human mind....I would ...hope...would come short of a monster....to have overseen the extinction of so manny species for their greater good.

chetak
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 07 Dec 2017 10:57

viveks wrote:I dont want to comment on this further...but there is an outlook to be maintained here....some for the sured appeasement of the folks who dont seem to value the contribution made. Maybe they did expect something more from the already challenged folks....something that put their expectations at ease.....human mind....I would ...hope...would come short of a monster....to have overseen the extinction of so manny species for their greater good.


Bottomline??.

Other countries' body bags' are at least as valuable as amreki body bags, if not more.

Kersi
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kersi » 07 Dec 2017 11:35

Is this the Indian Navy discussion thread ?

uddu
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby uddu » 07 Dec 2017 11:40

Hope this is not posted before

Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Dec 2017 13:36

What would be the best write up on one "Operation Trident" which occurred on this day 46 years ago.

Karthik S
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 07 Dec 2017 13:45

Aditya_V wrote:What would be the best write up on one "Operation Trident" which occurred on this day 46 years ago.




This video will give you a good idea.

Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Dec 2017 15:04

I have read and seen a few documentaries, my post was also to remember this great day of celebration for the Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 08 Dec 2017 19:18

The resolution of a P-8I thermal imager. Even the heat from the engine room deep inside the hull is showing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/indiannavy/s ... 41/photo/1
Last edited by tsarkar on 08 Dec 2017 19:19, edited 1 time in total.

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Dec 2017 19:19

I have to make a confession.No romps with Natashas ever! A great black mark on my sporting career.I came v.close once, gorgeous brunette, she sang RK's famous
"Mere joota hai Japani" to me! I had another GF at the time so....I graciously declined...sigh.Unlike Trump and co. truly, no contacts at all with Rus. On the contrary was speaking to a US adm. not too long ago!

It's just a historical quirk of fate, that we've ended up with approx.70% of milware from the SU/RU.The West was mean, training our submariners (Brits) , and then refusing to sell us decent subs.The Sovs. stepped in and the rest as they say is history.The magnificent brains trust of the old 20th centuryIN leveraged the modest Leander class into the "G" and "B" FFG with innovative in-house design and we' ve never looked back.Names like Paulraj (sonars)
come to mind.Amazingly someone decided he wasn't needed anymore so off he went to the US!

The 21st century however has to see us break free from remaining a client state of any bloc.Partnerships like the BMos JV the way to go.In a few decades from now perhaps we'll be having world beating products being exported.But I won't be around to see it, declining age factor.More's the pity.We however mustn't lose sight of the fact that we are a poor country with 1.4B people to feed.Every million $ spent would work miracles if invested in rural areas for simple peasant folk.It's why I get truly p*seed off at ridiculously expensive acquisitions and upgrades.

In the era of PGMs, the good CNO of the USN stated that they were moving onto "payload centric" concepts and systems instead of "platform centric" ones.
The Ru. Syrian campaign using a host of legacy Sov. era weaponry like a Sov. era rust-bucket Kuznetsov ,new upgraded Kilos plus tiny corvettes in the Caspian Sea stunned the world.Gorshkov's legacy is very much alive in the RuN ! Russia is now building large numbers of small Kalibir equipped corvettes instead of larger DDGs and CGs .The IN needs to leverage its smaller warships similarly, esp. the underarmed OPVs and P-28s.The USN too is upgrading its LCS FFGs which in their current format are lightweights likely to have exciting but short careers! This is why the IN should examine diff. classes of warships , right from carriets to subs, and see how size reduction, greater automation, smaller crews with larger weapons packages will give more bang for the buck.
Last edited by Philip on 08 Dec 2017 20:11, edited 2 times in total.

srai
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 08 Dec 2017 19:25

Philip wrote:I have to make a confession.No romps with Natashas ever! A great black mark on my sporting career.I came v.close once, gorgeous brunette, she sang RK's famous
"Mere joota hai Japani" to me! I had another GF at the time so....I graciously declined...sigh....

...

Ah now that explains your Russian love affair :twisted:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 08 Dec 2017 19:29

Philip wrote:I have to make a confession.No romps with Natashas ever! A great black mark on my sporting career.I came v.close once, gorgeous brunette, she sang RK's famous "Mere joota hai Japani" to me! I had another GF at the time so....I graciously declined...sigh.


What took you so long to make this confession? Now people will get it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 08 Dec 2017 20:09

tsarkar wrote:The resolution of a P-8I thermal imager. Even the heat from the engine room deep inside the hull is showing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/indiannavy/s ... 41/photo/1


Sir, i bet even that is a dumbed down image for the benefit of us ordinary folk. The real deal will be much much powerful and sharper as indicated by the recent spotting (leading to the eventual) rescue of a lone fisherman amidst the wreckage of his boat and that too in dark stormy conditions

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2017 00:13

Philip, Russia still has a lake minded navy for tactical deployments: Baltic Sea, Caspian Sea, Mediterranean Sea. Yes they have Pacific Ocean and North Atlantic Oceans but more for strategic deployments.

OTH India has the Bay of Bengal, Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf.
So gun boats will make Indian Navy a brown water navy*.

IN needs capital ships for seagoing capability which means ships above 2000 tonne displacement.

I argued this with KS garu even as a student after he wrote a book with Mohammed Ayoob.

Arun.prabhu
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Arun.prabhu » 09 Dec 2017 07:58

ramana wrote:Philip, Russia still has a lake minded navy for tactical deployments: Baltic Sea, Caspian Sea, Mediterranean Sea. Yes they have Pacific Ocean and North Atlantic Oceans but more for strategic deployments.

OTH India has the Bay of Bengal, Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf.
So gun boats will make Indian Navy a brown water navy*.

IN needs capital ships for seagoing capability which means ships above 2000 tonne displacement.

I argued this with KS garu even as a student after he wrote a book with Mohammed Ayoob.


We don’t have the far flung bases or port of calls or the support fleet to support fleet elements operating far from shore, etc. and anyways, let’s wrest absolute control of the Indian Ocean from other nations first before we go planting our flag in the rest of the world’s oceans. But while we are doing that, forays into long distance ops to establish requirements for support fleet, bases, etc would be nice

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Dec 2017 13:50

I agree, we do need blue-water ops DDGs and FFGs too as the fleet's assets must be balanced. However, for dominating the IOR, in particular,leveraging our OPVs and smaller corvettes would be very cost-effective when equipped with Kalibir/BMos/ Nirbhay class of SSMs.We will have more numbers of these to sanitise the IOR. In an out of IOR scenario, say an op in the ICS(Indo- China Sea),
these warships operating from the ANC could wreak havoc in the ICS,bd quickly rearmed at ANC naval bases.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 10 Dec 2017 15:56

Sharing as received


THE STORY OF KHUKRI AS TOLD BY CAPTAIN ALLAN RODRIGUES TO COMMEMORATE NAVY WEEk

23rd December 2010
Dear Ms Ameeta Mulla Wattal,

I am an ex- Indian naval officer who left the service honourably in 1994. I live in New Zealand, and work in Australia and New Zealand these days.

This email refers to an article you wrote some five years ago very poignantly, on your father the Late Captain Mulla, pondering why he chose to go down with his ship.
The article obviously struck a chord with many of your readers, and in the way of the internet, travelled the world before it entered my mail box a few days ago, via a social network maintained by the 42nd NDA and 51st IMA course.

I did not know your father personally, but I feel I have always known him and for what he stood for, all of my adult life. I missed the fighting in 1971 as I was cadet in the NDA at the time, and only passed out and joined a warship at sea in June 1972, six months after the war ended. In the event I became an Anti Submarine specialist and along the way, I ended up commanding three warships including INS Himgiri (also an anti submarine frigate, although a more modernised version of the original Khukri). I retired after 20 years, joined industry, and eventually moved across the Pacific and the Tasman Sea to New Zealand.

I only say this because it has some context to the comments I make below, on the decision by your father to go down with his ship. In doing so I hope to capture the circumstances (and perhaps the greater purpose) of why captains of warships in extreme circumstances, take such drastic actions that seem to lack purpose or reason (particularly to the public at large). I am sure many naval officers of senior rank and certainly more qualified than me, may well have commented at length after reading your article. I just felt I might throw some light on a take that has largely been neglected. I know the pain never goes away and I apologise for any anguish I might give you in the process, but I do believe that Captain Mulla did something for the service that night, that has not been either understood or recognised, by both the navy, and the public at large.

The Indian Navy of 1971 was a different beast from the one we have today. Little was known about Anti-submarine warfare (ASW) at the time. We commissioned our first submarine in 1968 in the then Soviet Union, and had barely begun operating a fledgling submarine arm by 1970. Pakistan by contrast, had been operating submarines since the early sixties. Ships like the Khukri and Kirpan supposedly specialised in ASW, formed the vanguard against the fight against Pakistani submarines. They had little in the way of operational experience against submarines, and even less knowledge about the ocean environment.

The physics of detection can be explained in simple non technical terms. The Khukri had sonar called the ‘Sonar 170’. which was the best we had at the time. It had a maximum range (in laboratory conditions) of only 1500 yards. We knew little about the harsh nature of the environment underwater.

The seas in the tropical waters off India’s coastline are heated up in the morning and afternoons, raising surface temperatures to ambient levels. The worst effect is in the afternoons. The laws of physics then apply. They literally bend the sonar waves downwards, severely limiting detection range. Since deeper waters are ice cold, there is meeting point of the warm waters on the top and the cold waters below. This meeting point is called the 'layer' where the sonar beam bounces off and is almost totally reflected upwards. There is very little penetration below the layer. These layers lie between 30 and 60 metres depth in tropical waters, and are exploited by expert submariners who are able to hide under it.

It took us another 15 years after the war, all which I was professionally involved with in one way or then other, to fully understand the nature of anti-submarine warfare, and to learn how to work with the physical limitations imposed by a hostile ocean underwater environment.
Submarines on the other hand are not as handicapped, as they do not need to transmit on their sonars to detect a ship. Their engines are silent. They can consequently listen out for a warship and even identify a type of ship and its signature from the sound of its engines. Skilled submariners hide beneath the layer and approach with stealth. They only transmit at the last possible moment when they need a final range to fire their torpedos.
Warships at sea in 1971 (and Captain Mulla in particular) would have been more than aware of these limitations. They would have known two simple facts

(a) That a submarine at sea would have already detected a surface ship long before the ship had even reached any kind of detection range;

(b) That even if the warship did detect the submarine, it would be at the penultimate moment, when the submarine had already fired, (or was on the verge of firing) its torpedoes, giving the warship a few minutes at best, to take avoiding action, let alone counterattack.
The Pak submarine that sank the Khukri used its environment to maximum advantage. In hind sight and over the years, we developed better sonars and better tactics. We employed dedicated ASW aircraft with sonobuoys and magnetic detectors, helicopter with dunking sonars, and yes we spent a lot of time learning the harsh facts of the ocean environment we were forced to operate in.

This is the context in which ships put to sea in 1971, against an adversary who was well versed in using submarines to maximum advantage. Our own ASW ships had little in the way of riposte or as much experience we would have liked to have had before the war of fighting submarines.

In the event every sailor at sea recognises a moment of truth, when all of his training and skills are put to the ultimate test. It is the moment when the ship beats to quarters and goes into action against an enemy in sight, or an enemy that has been detected.

Khukri and Kirpan were operating in submarine infested waters. The ship would have gone to 'action stations' against a submarine many times over, in the days and nights preceding the sinking of the Khukri, sometimes for genuine reasons, sometimes for false alarms. All of this would have exhausted the crew and formed the 'fog of war' that hindsight experts, armchair generals/admirals and the public at large never quite get.

Each time the crew of the Khukri beat to quarters and battened down for action, a clarion call would have been broadcast on its tannoy “Hands to action stations _ assume first degree anti-submarine readiness - assume damage control state one condition Zulu”. The crew of the Khukri would have known fully level, that they were going against a committed enemy, and that the dice were loaded against them. Each of them would have been wondering whether they were going to come out of the action alive or dead. This is an age old fear that men have, and then learn to conquer, when they go to sea and to war. It is the nature of the beast. The army and the air force face similar issues, which they deal with in their own inimitable way.

The people most at risk on board the Khukri that night would have been its technical departments; engineering and electrical officers and sailors, closed up at action stations in the bowels of the ship three and four decks below the waterline, keeping the engines and the machinery running, so that their captain could fight. Each of them knew if a torpedo were to hit, it would do so well above where they were located, and that the chances of them surviving would be a lot less than those sailors who were fortunate to be located on the upper decks, and above the waterline.


it takes a special kind of motivation to get these men to go down into the bowels of a fighting ship whilst in action against a submarine. they do so each time out of a sense of duty that the ship cannot fight without them and mostly because they recognise that one single unspoken truth… that their captain will not forsake them; that their captain will not leave them behind. that is the crux of the why, and the reason why captains at sea honour this unspoken agreement.

Captain mulla would have known that many of his boys were trapped (but yet alive) in the bowels of his ship when it went down, in the few minutes after the torpedoes hit. he tried to help as many as he could, but i suspect he could not bring himself to save himself, whilst his boys were dying down below. that he chose to go down is a personal decision, perhaps even a moral decision; but it was a decision that set a standard that will save lives in future actions. it forced all of us who came after him, and who were privileged to command men in peace and war, to recognise that undeniable and unspoken bond between fighting men … that you fight your ship against an enemy (or the ocean in a storm), with what you have, and to the best of your ability, and that come what may, you never forsake your troops or leave a man under your command, behind you.

What Captain Mulla did that fateful day has had an enormous and positive impact on the service he loved and on the men who continue to serve it to this day. It reminds every one of us chosen to command of the qualities of leadership needed under duress, and of the ultimate responsibility we have to the families of the men we command; "You never forsake your men – You never leave a man behind".

I know that this hardly helps when trying to explain all of this to the family of a captain who makes the ultimate sacrifice. Nor does it assuage the grief of a young girl trying to understand why her father chose to voluntarily die, rather than save himself. For a fledgling service post independent India trying to forge its own traditions independent of the Royal Indian Navy of yore, the impact was enormous. It was one of the many actions in the 1971 war that made us equal partners with the Army and Air force in the defence of independent India.

I am reminded of the last few stanzas of Ronald Hopwood?s classic poem 'Our Fathers' that I quote below.

“When we've raced the seagulls, run submerged across the Bay,

When we've tapped a conversation fifteen hundred miles away,

When the gyros spin superbly, when we've done away with coals,

And the tanks are full of fuel, and the targets full of holes,

When the margin's full of safety, when the weakest in the fleet

Is a Hyper-Super-Dreadnought, when the squadrons are complete,

Let us pause awhile and ponder, in the light of days gone by,

With their strange old ships and weapons, what our Fathers did, and why.

Then if still we dare to argue that we're just as good as they,

We can seek the God of Battles on our knees, and humbly pray

That the work we leave behind us, when our earthly race is run,

May be half as well completed as our Fathers' work was done”.

My wife Sharon and I wish you and your family a great Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year 2011. If you or your family do visit New Zealand do look us up.

Allan Rodrigues
DirectorNE


Austin
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 10 Dec 2017 16:59

Indian navy to boost its firepower, to purchase 24 multi-role choppers

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 06989.html

In a desperate bid to buy multi-role helicopters, the Indian Navy is moving a proposal worth over `12,000 crore to buy 24 of these choppers which would be deployed for anti-submarine warfare as well as operations by its Marine Commando (MARCOS) special forces.

"We have moved a proposal worth `12,000 crore to buy 24 multi-role helicopters through a tender under the buy global category of the defence procurement procedure for our warships and sea-based operations," a source in the Navy told MAIL TODAY. The proposal is expected to come up for discussion during an important meeting of the defence ministry scheduled to be held next week under defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman, the source said.

The move has come at a time when the defence ministry was forced to retract a more-thannine-year tender to purchase choppers from American firm Sikorsky Corporation due to very high price and the refusal of the firm to extend its contractual validity in view of the long acquisition process.

After the contract was scrapped, the navy was trying to procure the choppers from American firm under the Foreign Military Sales programme, but it is learnt that the defence ministry put its foot down as it wants a multi-vendor competition in all defence deals to avoid monopolistic situations.


In almost all the single-vendor cases, the vendors increase the price of their products manifold while trying to bypass the procedures given under the defence procurement rules. Once the proposal is cleared, the navy will issue a global request for proposal in which the American firm Sikorsky and European firm Airbus Helicopters are expected to participate.

In the previous tender, the navy had wanted to buy 16 choppers but now it wants to go for 24 choppers in view of the increased responsibilities in its area of operations. Some navy officers claimed that the force was in a bad condition as its old Seaking multi-role choppers were getting older and its warships were operating without multirole choppers.

The navy also has plans of issuing an international tender for purchasing 123 Naval Multirole Helicopters (NMRH) which would allow it to deploy one chopper each on all of its warships. Navy officers claimed that recently when the MARCOS were operating in the Gulf of Aden in thwarting a piracy bid, they felt restricted while taking action against a group of pirates who ran away from the site.

The defence ministry has already given a go-ahead to the maritime force to purchase 111 naval utility helicopters for its requirement to replace its vintage Cheetah/Chetak choppers.

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Dec 2017 06:26

Get the 24 asap.No time to further lose.

srai
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 11 Dec 2017 08:16

Austin wrote:Indian navy to boost its firepower, to purchase 24 multi-role choppers

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 06989.html

In a desperate bid to buy multi-role helicopters, the Indian Navy is moving a proposal worth over `12,000 crore to buy 24 of these choppers which would be deployed for anti-submarine warfare as well as operations by its Marine Commando (MARCOS) special forces.

"We have moved a proposal worth `12,000 crore to buy 24 multi-role helicopters through a tender under the buy global category of the defence procurement procedure for our warships and sea-based operations," a source in the Navy told MAIL TODAY. The proposal is expected to come up for discussion during an important meeting of the defence ministry scheduled to be held next week under defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman, the source said.

The move has come at a time when the defence ministry was forced to retract a more-thannine-year tender to purchase choppers from American firm Sikorsky Corporation due to very high price and the refusal of the firm to extend its contractual validity in view of the long acquisition process.

After the contract was scrapped, the navy was trying to procure the choppers from American firm under the Foreign Military Sales programme, but it is learnt that the defence ministry put its foot down as it wants a multi-vendor competition in all defence deals to avoid monopolistic situations.


In almost all the single-vendor cases, the vendors increase the price of their products manifold while trying to bypass the procedures given under the defence procurement rules. Once the proposal is cleared, the navy will issue a global request for proposal in which the American firm Sikorsky and European firm Airbus Helicopters are expected to participate.

In the previous tender, the navy had wanted to buy 16 choppers but now it wants to go for 24 choppers in view of the increased responsibilities in its area of operations. Some navy officers claimed that the force was in a bad condition as its old Seaking multi-role choppers were getting older and its warships were operating without multirole choppers.

The navy also has plans of issuing an international tender for purchasing 123 Naval Multirole Helicopters (NMRH) which would allow it to deploy one chopper each on all of its warships. Navy officers claimed that recently when the MARCOS were operating in the Gulf of Aden in thwarting a piracy bid, they felt restricted while taking action against a group of pirates who ran away from the site.

The defence ministry has already given a go-ahead to the maritime force to purchase 111 naval utility helicopters for its requirement to replace its vintage Cheetah/Chetak choppers.


How many years has this MRH been going on? Another one of those never-ending acquisition programs.

Secondly, why are the 16/24 MRH separated from the 123 NMRH competition? Shouldn't they be combined into one acquisition program?

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 11 Dec 2017 09:51

By the time this acquisition is complete, HAL's IMRH will be flying. So take out the popcorn and enjoy the show.

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Dec 2017 10:35

You know how it took 20 yrs. to finally buy the Hawk AJT.AM Dennis La Fontaine, who became chief later on headed a committee to go into flight safety after a number of crashes, esp.MIG-21s.His recommendation was to acquire an AJT asap which took 20 yrs to arrive!
The Hawk is now doing a damned good job.I remember along with other BRF members screaming on the forum," buy any bl**dy AJT for God's sake.."
The same thing happened later with the BTT.HTT-32 liked to crash killing many pilots and we said again "buy any bl**dy BTT!"So we bought the PC-7MK-2 again doing a good job.

Now after the Sik was chosen- a great feat given our labyrinthine decision- making process in the happy land of Babudom, when warships were being sent out to sea without their primary ASW asset, old SKs and Chetaks still flying on goodwill, we still kept yelling " buy any damned ASW helo!" After the decision was cancelled to bring it back from the grave is a divine act and once again for heaven and the IN's sake, let's seal this deal immediately.These 24 helos will be able to serve aboard just 12 warships which are meant to house 2 each and will also be required , at least 8 when IAC-1 is commissioned in the next 2 yrs. or so.That would explain the no. being increased from 16 to 24.We would have 10 DDGs( P-15s and follow ons), 3 + 7 more P-17s/17As, 10 Talwar and it's follow ons- which would house Kamov instead.The exg.Kamovs are planned for upgrades and I think a batch of new ones came with the VikA.

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Dec 2017 10:48

This 24 was an immediate interim req.to prevent a critical loss of ASW capability with our principal surface combatants.The need is for around 200 incl.LUHs also for the CG.

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 11 Dec 2017 11:08

Austin wrote:Sharing as received


THE STORY OF KHUKRI AS TOLD BY CAPTAIN ALLAN RODRIGUES TO COMMEMORATE NAVY WEEk



Poignant. Thank you for sharing.

srai
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 11 Dec 2017 17:16

Philip wrote:This 24 was an immediate interim req.to prevent a critical loss of ASW capability with our principal surface combatants.The need is for around 200 incl.LUHs also for the CG.

"Immediate" is a relative term in the Indian context :P


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