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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 07 Jul 2017 11:13

No CM,you've missed the main reason.The VikA has a huge catering/messing /dining facility to host the large number of guests and hosts at the parties after the exercise! :rotfl: There may even be some stock of caviar still available,gifted by Mother Russia,in the ship's store,vodka certainly,but Natashas?....no idea!
PS:THat gives me agreat idea.All deals with Russia for their milware to come with a 5 yr. supply of spares (comestible),vodka and caviar.I'm sure that our babus will cheer for that clause being put in.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Iyersan » 07 Jul 2017 12:30

We are still at the snail pace with the Navy mordenization program.

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 07 Jul 2017 15:39

In view of the daily increase in Chinese bullying and military threat,the GOI should take most urgent decisions/measures as was done when the Kargil conflict erupted.What is most urgent are acquiring at least 6 subs asap,which we could obtain on lease from Russia,perhaps Germany too, until new replacements arrive.Minesweepers are also a critical requirement,apart from a few dozen ASW helos.

A second programme must be to leverage the capability of our lesser armed warships,like the OPVs,etc. These should be fitted with extra ASW eqpt.,anti-ship missiles and SAMs,at least MANPADS.Some vessels ,esp. those with the CG ,should be fitted with MCM eqpt. In fact,the CG should also be tasked and its larger vessels equipped for mine warfare.The Sov.Pauk/Abhay class weighs only 450t,based upon the same hull as the Tarantula missile corvettes.Same dunking sonar on the Kamovs used here too.So we can increase the capability of the larger minor surface combatants.Lightweight ASW torpedoes another "extra". Acquiring more LRMP/MP aircraft another need.P-8I prod. for the extra planned 4 should be cleared if not already done so.Extra IL-38s are also available (mothballed) with Russia.We need these aircraft to be able to launch KH-101 type ASMs apart from BMos -modified.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jul 2017 16:12

The last US Navy P-8A will likely be ordered in 2020 (USN has a 117 aircraft program of record) so once that is done Boeing is likely to significantly reduce P-8 production and scale the program back, making it more expensive. This is why you are seeing orders coming in from buyers like the UK and Norway that would have liked to buy it a few years from now but want to get in their orders while the rate is high and cost at its lowest.The IN placed approved 4 additional aircraft last year so I think they are good vis-a-vis the options they had baked in.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 07 Jul 2017 18:51

chola wrote:Look at the lifts of the PoS compared to the other modern carriers:
Image

Chola avargale,
Unfortunately, the designs you are comparing the VikAd with are more apples to an orange since it is not a modern carrier, per se. Its a modernized Aircraft cruiser and its peers are the Invincible class of the RN, ITS Guisseppe Girabaldi and the Principe De Asturias, not the Varyag, QE class or the Ford class. So comparing the VIkAD with its actual peers, you'll see that it is pretty much in norm with respect to its Deck lift placements, as seen below.
The Invincible class, RN.
Image

The ITS Guisseppe Girabaldi.
Image

The Principe De Asturias, Spanish Navy.
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 07 Jul 2017 19:42

Bala Vignesh wrote:
chola wrote:Chola avargale,
Unfortunately, the designs you are comparing the VikAd with are more apples to an orange since it is not a modern carrier, per se. Its a modernized Aircraft cruiser and its peers are the Invincible class of the RN, ITS Guisseppe Girabaldi and the Principe De Asturias, not the Varyag, QE class or the Ford class. So comparing the VIkAD with its actual peers, you'll see that it is pretty much in norm with respect to its Deck lift placements, as seen below.


Sir, i think that's just the point which Chola was trying to make. We are using a modified cruiser not as cruiser, not even as a helicopter carrier but as a primary carrier with non-VTOL, non-light, fixed wing aircrafts as the air component.

As others posters have pointed out, very likely we didn't have other options available then.

Perhaps it's fait accompli but more likely just a pragmatic decision taken by our naval planners, who were hoping that other options (including indigenous ones) would be available in the not to distant future...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 07 Jul 2017 20:11

Bala Vignesh wrote:
chola wrote:Look at the lifts of the PoS compared to the other modern carriers:
Image

Chola avargale,
Unfortunately, the designs you are comparing the VikAd with are more apples to an orange since it is not a modern carrier, per se. Its a modernized Aircraft cruiser and its peers are the Invincible class of the RN, ITS Guisseppe Girabaldi and the Principe De Asturias, not the Varyag, QE class or the Ford class. So comparing the VIkAD with its actual peers, you'll see that it is pretty much in norm with respect to its Deck lift placements, as seen below.
The Invincible class, RN.
Image

The ITS Guisseppe Girabaldi.
Image

The Principe De Asturias, Spanish Navy.
Image



Yes, I know. As I wrote earlier after billions in refit, it is still more cruiser than carrier.

It would be sufficient if we were just flying helos or VTOL off of it. But we are not. This is our frontline carrier.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 07 Jul 2017 20:21

Manish_P wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:


Sir, i think that's just the point which Chola was trying to make. We are using a modified cruiser not as cruiser, not even as a helicopter carrier but as a primary carrier with non-VTOL, non-light, fixed wing aircrafts as the air component.

As others posters have pointed out, very likely we didn't have other options available then.



In 2004, we could have gone in any direction including building our own. There was no immediate threat and we were still the one Asian navy with a functioning carrier in the Viraat.

We spent around $3B USD on a poor platform that locked into another poor system in the MiG-29. We could have easily kickstarted our indigenous carrier program earlier with that time and treasure.

At any rate, it is water under the bridge and the IN has made its choice going forward with a new tender for carrier aircraft and an insistence on a 65K-ton CATOBAR.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 07 Jul 2017 22:23

And we can all be smartasses in hindsight.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nirav » 07 Jul 2017 22:43

+1

Hindsight is 20/20.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 08 Jul 2017 02:04

The future INS Vikrant is pretty much the Indian option that was in the works since the 1990s. There is no evidence that it was delayed due to Vikramaditya purchase. Neither did the Navy ever back out from LCA-N program untill recently.

INS Vikrant was possible thanks to a STOBAR fighter available procured first for the INS Vikramaditya.

chola wrote:In 2004, we could have gone in any direction including building our own. There was no immediate threat and we were still the one Asian navy with a functioning carrier in the Viraat.

We spent around $3B USD on a poor platform that locked into another poor system in the MiG-29. We could have easily kickstarted our indigenous carrier program earlier with that time and treasure.

At any rate, it is water under the bridge and the IN has made its choice going forward with a new tender for carrier aircraft and an insistence on a 65K-ton CATOBAR.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nirav » 08 Jul 2017 02:21

What will the Vikrant equip itself with?

Edit.
It's slated to operate the MiGs.
With an inventory of 45 jets for both our carriers and a service life of 25 years, will the numbers be enough considering a higher attrition rate for naval fighters ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Jul 2017 07:23

Philip wrote:No CM,you've missed the main reason.The VikA has a huge catering/messing /dining facility to host the large number of guests and hosts at the parties after the exercise! :rotfl: There may even be some stock of caviar still available,gifted by Mother Russia,in the ship's store,vodka certainly,but Natashas?....no idea!
PS:THat gives me agreat idea.All deals with Russia for their milware to come with a 5 yr. supply of spares (comestible),vodka and caviar.I'm sure that our babus will cheer for that clause being put in.


Hmm, Natasha's. Maybe the babus will move faster, eh? Perhaps something like that scene from the Steven Seagal film Under Siege...heh

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Jul 2017 07:24

nirav wrote:What will the Vikrant equip itself with?

Edit.
It's slated to operate the MiGs.
With an inventory of 45 jets for both our carriers and a service life of 25 years, will the numbers be enough considering a higher attrition rate for naval fighters ?

I think that's why they have the rfi for 57 new fighters

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2017 09:52

Vikrant is designed around Tejas and 29K they won't be taking any thing other then these types , hanger space , lift , skijump etc are designed for these and more than 50% of fleet would be chopper n aew typee

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2017 11:24

Novella Sea Dragon Workstation on upgraded Il-38N

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2017 12:07

In hindsight...! Yes,ifs and buts,glorious for fantasising what?

But seriously,some happenings in retrospect we must be grateful for.As much as I love the dear old SH,the lack of extra Sea Harriers with the RN-though operating large nos. of RAF Harriers,meant that we had to look for a new type to replace the Vikrant,as the Viraat's complement would in time get their pension. We therefore had to look beyond the smaller.light STOVL carriers like the Italian GG,Thai Chakri,etc. In fact becos of intense adverse pressure from the IAF,always wanting to sabotage any IN air capability expansion-now trying to scuttle attack helos and close-support aircraft for the IA,what was initially planned was a 20K t "Air Defense Ship".That design slowly morphed into a 30K vessel then finally into the IAC-1 During this time the Gorsky negotiations were on and since we would have to operate the same aircraft,29K from the new desi carrier,its design was enlarged for that purpose. We now therefore have two decent med. sized carriers,which we've been able to afford and budget for. The Russian admiral/expert's take on what it would cost them for a 65K t CBG should be an eyeopener to all concerned.

Conventional AIP subs would cost around $500M for a western one,$350-400M for a Russian one.For the price of a 65K t CV,plus escorts,aircraft,etc.,we would be shelling out a min. of $15B for the lot.that's including the 57 new aircraft.For half that cost,we could acquire 2 more Akula N-subs on 10 yr. leases,or two of our planned SSNs,plus around 9-10 AIP boats. Given that we've got to face at least 1-2 doz. PLAN subs ranged against us in a crisis,plus around 6-8 PN subs,which option gives more bang for the buck? PLease also remember how just one RN N-sub,the Conqueror,sent the entire Argie surface fleet scuttling back into harbour after the sinking of the Belgrano.Their German subs however remained at sea and made attacks on RN task force's carriers.Unfortunately for them,faulty torpedo settings allowed the carriers to escape from being sunk.

I would wish our strategists to carefully study the Battle of Leyte Gulf in WW2. The largest naval battle in history.More than Midway in my opinion,bad luck ,US code-breaking and excellent disposition of its naval forces,saw the Japanese attempt to regain the Phillipines fail.Any PLAN attempt to ingress into the IOR,invade the A*N islands, will have some similarities with that operation,but on a smaller scale.We too may be forced to split our naval; assets to the sev. chokepoints ,Malacca Straits,Indonesian and Filipino waters,plus the ICS,etc.in a forward defensive "offensive" stance."Fortune favours the bold".Old dictum.

http://faq.ph/8-facts-about-the-battle- ... your-mind/

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 28af1cf461
Good review of the IN's sub building policy here:
India shows subs skills curve starts steeply
The second of India’s Scorpene-class submarines, the Khanderi, at its launch in January 2017. It is on sea trials now.
The Australian12:00AM July 7, 2017

BRENDAN NICHOLSON
MumbaiCanberra

There are abundant lessons in India for the Australians negotiating the huge and complex $50 billion contract for the navy’s 12 new submarines.
The Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) yard in Mumbai is halfway through a program to build six conventionally-powered Scorpene-class submarines in collaboration with the French shipbuilder Naval Group, which has just changed its name from DCNS.

Against competition from Japan, Germany and, earlier on, Sweden, Naval Group won the contract to design and help build 12 very large Shortfin Barracuda submarines in Australia. The Shortfin is a conventionally-powered version of another Naval Group class, the nuclear-powered Barracuda submarine.

One issue to be dealt with quickly is the view that lingers in some quarters, mainly in South Australia, that 100 per cent of the components of Australia’s new submarines must be made in Australia.

The Mumbai dockyard has a very strong focus on the “make in India” policy of the Modi government but despite its best efforts, local, or “indigenous”, content is expected to reach just 30 per cent in the sixth boat.

The Indians are very conscious of a weakness in their national economy that hindered early efforts to get the submarine project moving. The economy had made a major jump from an agrarian base to one heavily focused on IT but along the way it did not develop manufacturing capability on anything like the same scale.
The Modi government is strengthening the manufacturing sector with a big push to skill the population.

Naval Group says that if it gets to build more Scorpenes for India after the current six, its goal will be to meet the government’s target of at least 50 per cent local content.

The major Indian effort to modernise and significantly increase the size of its own submarine fleet is driven by concern about a steady increase in Chinese naval activity in the Indian Ocean with regular visits by the PLA Navy to the port of Karachi in neighbouring Pakistan.
The strong Chinese naval presence comes amid a standoff between Chinese and India troops on the Sikkim-Bhutan border region.

The six Scorpenes are just the start for India. They may be followed by three more Scorpenes and then by six more conventional submarines to be designed in India as it focuses on strengthening its own strategic industry capability.

At present India’s navy operates 13 conventional submarines and two nuclear-powered boats, one of them leased from Russia. Older Russian conventional submarines used by India are likely to be extensively refurbished to extend their lives.

Naval Group clearly wants to convince those sceptical about its Australian project that if its submarines can be built in India, they can be built in Australia.

Captain Rajiv Lath, a retired Indian Navy submariner who leads the engineering side of the Mazagon building program, said that after initial problems and delays, the project had come together very effectively. Each boat got easier, Captain Lath said this week.

The first of the Indian Scorpenes, INS Kalvari, was launched in October 2015 and has successfully test fired a torpedo and an Exocet anti-ship missile and carried out diving trials. The boat is expected to be delivered to the navy within weeks. The second submarine, INS Khanderi, was launched in January this year and is now carrying out sea trials.

Work is under way simultaneously on the other four boats and the goal is to launch them at nine-month intervals.

Captain Lath said he believed that while Australia had ordered 12 conventionally-powered submarines, it was likely that a decision would eventually be made to switch the program to include some nuclear-powered boats.

The Indian project was a big test of the technology-transfer process, Captain Lath said. “The first of class was very tough. We had a lot of problems in the beginning but we’ve got through the difficult part and learned from our mistakes.”

Early in the project, three welders were sent to France to learn the high-level skills needed to put together the pressure hull. These respected “welding gurus” then trained dozens of Indian welders. But it would have been better to send 15 or 20 welders to France to start with, Captain Lath said.

On the issue of technology transfer, Indian engineers said they could fully understand why, after building submarines for 100 years, a nation such as France would be reluctant to hand over its technology for nothing. The goal in future would be to design as much as possible of the technology in India and acquire the capability to make the platform there.

French engineers said a major early lesson was underestimating the difficulty of building the first boat in the series in the purchasing country.

The key was to allow enough time at the start of the project to learn the basics. “Don’t set out to build a submarine,” said a Frenchman intimately involved in the transfer to India of key technology who declined to be named because he worked in a high-security area. “You must go from bottom up. Start with the smallest design details and build upwards from there. And don’t go too fast. It takes time to build the skills your workforce needs and you can’t buy that.”

Naval Group has overseen the modernisation and expansion of the Mumbai yard that has been building fighting vessels since 1774.

The managing director of the French company’s arm in India, Bernard Buisson, said he was proud that the first in the series of six submarines was able to be built from scratch in India, rather than being build in France.

Keys to this were the technology-transfer process, the development of crucial quality-control skills and the training of skilled local manpower.

The submarines are built in five large sections which are then welded together. Cutting and rolling the steel for the first section took several months and then that section was rejected because the work did not meet the stringent standards required. Since then the rate of defects has declined rapidly.

The government-owned shipyard and the French company want to build the three more Scorpenes that they hope the Indian government will order. But they are up against a Modi administration policy obliging any foreign companies building in India to operate with a local private-sector partner. MDL is considering relaunching as a majority public company.

With two of the state of the art Scorpene submarines undergoing trials in the ocean off Mumbai and construction of the others moving rapidly along, a French specialist compared building the first submarine to assembling a piece of flat-packed Ikea furniture. “You’re up to midnight shouting in frustration at the first one — but once you’ve got it right the rest are much easier.”

Brendan Nicholson is defence editor of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute site, The Strategist. He was flown to Mumbai by Naval Group.


PS: However,some facts need to be mentioned.Excruciating delays,huge cost inflation,and leak of Scorpene's performance details , leading to the IN questioning the need for building 3 more .None of the boats also come with an AIP system,something that the author has either forgotten or deliberately ignored.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2017 12:27

Indian Navy to Splurge on Hundreds of Helicopters for Warships
ASIA & PACIFIC
16:02 06.07.2017
After the cancellation of two major helicopters tenders, the Indian Navy will soon issue a new tender for 251 helicopters including 140 naval multi-role helicopters.

New Delhi (Sputnik) – The plan to buy 111 light utility helicopters is going to be issued in the next few weeks under the newly-prepared strategic partnership model of country’s defense procurement plan 2016, while another scheme is underway for the 140 multi-role helicopters critical for naval forces, sources told Sputnik.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 09 Jul 2017 00:28

Indranil wrote:And we can all be smartasses in hindsight.


Can't deny the hindsight but we were tricked in to the deal by offering free plateform on $750 M refurbishment contract. It makes us fools and i have no sympathy for fools but it make Russians anything but our friends.

We have a multibillion dollar lemon on our hand and this bundled mig29k lollypop, if austin is right, have also screwed Vikrant before its birth.

The point is that old saying "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

Assessing a vendor's capability, capacity, bonafides and solvency are essential tasks for a successful deal making. Our failure or missplaced infatuation hurts not only us but also the mother Russia. I can agree that they should have first right on weapons supply to India because of our long and fruitful history but the weapon systems have to meet our national security requirements no ifs or buts.
Last edited by Katare on 09 Jul 2017 01:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 09 Jul 2017 00:50

The argument that serviceability is a function of investment in spare parts and repair facility has some validity but its limited in how much of the problem it can explain...

If i have unlimited amount of resources, I can probably make any aircraft an 80% availability aircraft but we live in a world that is perennially resources streesed. Cost is always the king!

Also a poorly designed machine would breakdown more often requiring more spares and repair facilities which than will be used as an excuse that enough money was not invested into the support infrastructure.

How come IAF invests lower resources support infrastructure for Russian hardware as compared to western hardware? May be the Russian claims of lifecycle costs/MTBF are not true so whatever is set-up initially almost always turns out to be insufficient? Than it becomes IAF's fault that it didn't spend enough.

With Russia the major issue is in supplychain of spares, either they cost too much, take too long, spares are used/substandard and simply the capacity no longer exists.

For very simplified example, if I compare two commercial fleets of cars by toyota and ford.
Toyota cars are well designed they don't break down so need little investment in spares and repair for very high availability at low headache. Ford cars are cheaper to buy have bigger engines more room but they require a larger spare stock, more repair facilities and still will have lower availability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 09 Jul 2017 01:56

Does anyone know how much the whole Gorshy+Mig29 K has costed indian tax payers so far?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 09 Jul 2017 02:02

Another question that may be Brar sahib can answer for me. Is it possible to put a dozen F35 on the Gorshkov from structural/mechanical/lift etc pov i.e not counting the aircontrol part of it.

Would Rafael has any chances at all of operating from Gorshky

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Jul 2017 02:53

Katare excellent posts.

The simple fact is the MiG guys simply did not regard the IN as a customer they must & should meet & ignored many of their contractual obligations.

The CAG report is the tip of an iceberg.

The CAG also asked for data on the Gorshkov but did not receive it by the time of their report & complained about it.

I suspect it is worse than the MiG-29s in terms of the serviceability and useability aspect.

It is important these factors are debated and openly discussed, when we are not at war & we can rectify them. For one, they act as useful lessons on what not to do (even when seniors involved in the process retire, the numbers remain) & Russian or any vendor intransigence is documented.

If we see the CAG reports on Russian procurement, there is invariably a huge issue from the OEM too in terms of providing documentation, tech & machinery to the Indian partner, usually some DPSU.

It becomes clear after a while, that there is apattern of either mistakes on the Russian side OR deliberate delays so we continue importing spares and expensive assemblies because the original plan got delayed.

In case of the T-90, this was most certainly the case.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 09 Jul 2017 02:59

Katare wrote:Another question that may be Brar sahib can answer for me. Is it possible to put a dozen F35 on the Gorshkov from structural/mechanical/lift etc pov i.e not counting the aircontrol part of it.

Would Rafael has any chances at all of operating from Gorshky


I don't know since that is a carrier design issue which I assume would involve working with the equipment suppliers. Going purely on weight and wingspan, the F-35B is lighter than the MiG-29K when empty (though just slightly), and has a smaller wingspan as well though its wings do not fold. Other technical issues would need to be looked at since integrating an aircraft with a vessel isn't a straight forward thing. Since the jet is a STOVL and has a thrust vectoring nozzle that swivels 90 degrees on landing the deck needs thermion or a similar coating or process to make sure it can take the beating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai8O7Al_-aM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GVSir5OSI

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 09 Jul 2017 04:12

^^^ Indranil wrote: And we can all be smartasses in hindsight

Or dumbasses in foresight

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Jul 2017 05:24

Compare the VikA to the CDG.That worthy flat top has had far more breakdown issues than the VikA.Still ,when required as in theLibyan campaign, it has done the biz.RN N-subs reliabilty a scandal.Supposed Sov.dinosaur the Kuz also did the biz in Syria and if you remenber well,our very own Vikrant had a gammy boiler in '71 ,yet performed magnificently far better than the Enterprise!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 09 Jul 2017 06:13

Compare the VikA to the CDG.That worthy flat top has had far more breakdown issues than the VikA.


I'm sorry but they are not comparable given the wide gap between their operational status. The Charles de Gaulle first saw combat in 2001. While the VikA has just entered service a few years ago, the CdG this year went into an 18 month dry dock period for what effectively amounts to its mid-life upgrade. Moreover it is a CVN, and has a highly capable air wing on account of its CATOBAR nature which allows proper range/payload setups for added mission flexibility and allows larger assets for AEW, COD etc...

You will need a decade plus of operational expereince and deployments for the VikA to develop a comparison. Carrying a couple of E-2Cs or E-2Ds does a lot in enhancing the carrier strike group survivability..add more and you can push one forward as an offensive option as well, particularly with the longer ranged sensor on the E-2D.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 09 Jul 2017 08:14

brar_w wrote:
Compare the VikA to the CDG.That worthy flat top has had far more breakdown issues than the VikA.


I'm sorry but they are not comparable given the wide gap between their operational status. The Charles de Gaulle first saw combat in 2001. While the VikA has just entered service a few years ago, the CdG this year went into an 18 month dry dock period for what effectively amounts to its mid-life upgrade. Moreover it is a CVN, and has a highly capable air wing on account of its CATOBAR nature which allows proper range/payload setups for added mission flexibility and allows larger assets for AEW, COD etc...

You will need a decade plus of operational expereince and deployments for the VikA to develop a comparison. Carrying a couple of E-2Cs or E-2Ds does a lot in enhancing the carrier strike group survivability..add more and you can push one forward as an offensive option as well, particularly with the longer ranged sensor on the E-2D.

Image


My goodness, just look at that airwing on the Charles de Gualle! The thing is only 45K tons too. Everything about it is efficient and well designed.

Twenty-eight fixed wings on the flight deck alone. Compared that to the Kuznetsov at 65K tons and its pathetic 4 MiG-29Ks and 8 SU-33s during its mission off Syria.

The E-2s AEW simply puts it way beyond any STOBAR -- by a far margin.

This is what I hope our Vishal can approximate.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 09 Jul 2017 10:51

brar_w wrote:
Compare the VikA to the CDG.That worthy flat top has had far more breakdown issues than the VikA.


I'm sorry but they are not comparable given the wide gap between their operational status. The Charles de Gaulle first saw combat in 2001. While the VikA has just entered service a few years ago, the CdG this year went into an 18 month dry dock period for what effectively amounts to its mid-life upgrade. Moreover it is a CVN, and has a highly capable air wing on account of its CATOBAR nature which allows proper range/payload setups for added mission flexibility and allows larger assets for AEW, COD etc...

You will need a decade plus of operational expereince and deployments for the VikA to develop a comparison. Carrying a couple of E-2Cs or E-2Ds does a lot in enhancing the carrier strike group survivability..add more and you can push one forward as an offensive option as well, particularly with the longer ranged sensor on the E-2D.

Image


As I have said earlier Indian Navy should consider a Modified Vikrant class based on Charles de Gaulle before targeting a larger one and the french will be more than happy to support

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 09 Jul 2017 10:56

^^^
Buy 36 more Rafale-I and 36 Rafale-MI in return for nuclear carrier design and technologies ;)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 09 Jul 2017 11:09

65k tonnes aircraft carrier can easily accommodate 36 rafales, couple of AWACS, ASW and utility helos.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Jul 2017 11:55

i wish japan or france were going ahead with such a program of 3-4 carriers then we could have caught that boat(literally) and built 2 by amortizing the cost and risk with a strong partner and more hulls.

as of now vishal is again a bespoke design like the vikky or vikrant(which sadly looks set to end at 1 unit)
this is never a great idea. more ships of a design help us build the production scale and partners in the industry.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 09 Jul 2017 14:29

Singha wrote:i wish japan or france were going ahead with such a program of 3-4 carriers then we could have caught that boat(literally) and built 2 by amortizing the cost and risk with a strong partner and more hulls.

The French are considering reviving their PA2 project based on recent reports. 75,000 tons derived from the UK QE class.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Jul 2017 15:38

Many moons ago (2yrs+?) I posted the UK's analysis of the size of carrier it required for its global expeditionary role as Uncle Sam's bum-chum,bringing up the rear :rotfl: ,and punching above its weight with memories of its imperial era.A size of 65K t was found to be the ideal size for it.While Britain will spring into action everytime the White House whistles,we saw the way in which Tony B.Liar scuttled off to the US and grovelled before Dubya B to go to war with Iraq,lying to his parliament,his people and the world in the process,France though a NATO member has its Gaullist "nose" of independent thought and action. Napoleonic sentiment still beats hard in every Frenchman's breast. Both Britain and France, however can afford such vessels despite their severe budget cutting.Both already have strong sub fleets (for a long time) with advanced N-attack subs capable of escorting CBGs.
Yet even "LIttle Britain" has gone in for a conventional power plant,shunning cats/EMALS,which would impose a massive cost escalation,also requiring an N-plant for the extra power required.

India's primary aim is to dominate the IOR and its approaches so that no external can enter,wage war against India and hope to survive.Geography has blessed us with our location right in the middle of the IO and like a dagger ,the subcontinent thrusts outwards into the ocean along with island territories on both seaboards as forward defence/offence springpoints. With a mix of suitable LRMP/ASWmaritime strike aircraft operating out of our land mass and islands,it will be v.difficult for ingressing task forces to avoid severe damage from Indian air attack,especially when combined with naval forces as we saw at Karach in '71.Dealing with enemy subs is entirely a different matter.It is going to be a major problem requiring a large number of ASW assets,aircraft,ships and HK subs. We would also need a SOSUS style UW network of sensors (esp. in the A&N theatre to monitor shipping/subs arriving from the Malacca Straits),like that which NATO laid to monitor the GIUK Gap to detect Soviet subs transiting into the Atlantic.Therefore,our need to possess a large N-powered,EMALS carrier costing an arm and a leg,cost estimates given very recently,which will beggar the naval (and defence ) budget,is superfluous. A modified/slightly larger sister ship to the IAC-1 is the answer if we want an affordable 3rd carrier to be commissioned by say around 2025.

The bulk of the naval budget,along with enhanced funding from the GOI must be dedicated to building up a v.large sub fleet of both AIP and N-subs,LRMP/maritime strike aircraft-which can launch KH-101 type ASMs with ranges in the thousands of KMs and a suitable surface fleet to give the IN a strong and balanced fleet.Before we talk about carrier no.3 ,we should talk about how fast the sub inventory can be built up and with what types of subs,nuclear and non-nuclear in the short/med/long term timeframes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 10 Jul 2017 04:18

Philip wrote:
India's primary aim is to dominate the IOR and its approaches so that no external can enter,wage war against India and hope to survive.


In order to dominate the IOR to the point that no external power can enter it would bankrupt Bharat many times over.

Because it means outgunning the US Navy that dominates the IOR today!

And you say we can't build a 65K carrier because it is too expensive, Filipov?

The Indian Navy is far more practical and realistic.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Jul 2017 04:45

Philip wrote:Yet even "LIttle Britain" has gone in for a conventional power plant,shunning cats/EMALS,which would impose a massive cost escalation,also requiring an N-plant for the extra power required.



EMAILS is US conspiracy to tie up huge part of naval budget on a single platform. This will make sure that we don't have enough fissile fuel for sufficient number of SSN & SSBNs.

With so many moving parts any breakdown will render Vishal ineffective or not giving it's optimum. Repeating Armada like defeat. Remember the US offer is only if we don't construct 2nd Vikrant after the current one. In that case USA will take the offer off the table.

Same like putin is ready to sell BMP 3 with condition that we promise not to go ahead developing our own design too.

What we need is lots of Shivalik stealth frigate, p15 destroyers, p28s, SSNs SSKs not lock up big money in one huge white elephant.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 10 Jul 2017 04:47

Remember the US offer is only if we don't construct 2nd Vikrant after the current one. In that case USA will take the offer off the table.


Could you provide anything to substantiate that? Carrier technology under DTTI was something the Indian MOD, and the US DOD agreed to jointly pursue. It was only after considerable talks and dialogue between the two that the GOTUS cleared the OEM concerned to offer export it to India if and when needed. There is no indication that the US is even considering providing other technologies particularly related to nuclear propulsion. In fact that is probably a non starter. Those could be indigenous or could be imported from elsewhere such as -

http://www.areva.com/EN/operations-1664 ... lsion.html

There is absolutely nothing stopping the IN on placing follow on ship orders for the Vikrant. The fact that the sale of EMALS is contingent upon the IN seizing any further follow on to the Vikrant is a totally baseless claim.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Jul 2017 05:23

It was NRao ji who wrote on carrier thread.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 10 Jul 2017 05:30

I haven't read the particular post but that is besides the point. DTTI covers carrier technologies and is a mutually agreed upon area of interest. If the MOD and the IN feel that they don't need EMALS from the US they could have simply not engaged the bilateral initiative focusing on it. Having said that, the incorporation of EMALS and procurement of it is the subject of a G2G process. Vikrant does not involve any US systems so there is no question of the US exercising veto authority on how many classes of those ships the IN requests and eventually sanctions. That is dependent upon the INs strategy and how it sees itself going forward. So far EMALS/AAG is the only critical technology the IN seems to be talking about under DTTI. Virtually everything else already exists in india or can be sourced from non US OEMs. The French built their own nuclear reactor for the CdG and are doing the same for their new SSNs. IN too is doing the same so there are plenty of alternate sources for other critical technologies required for a much larger, more capable vessel.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Jul 2017 06:59

IN's budget is the smallest amongst 3 services, if IAF couldn't afford more than 36 Rafale ; how could we expect IN to afford 65,000 ton money guzzler with its f18 / f35 / Rafale ?

It's a blunder.


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