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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Nov 2017 22:15

deejay wrote:Dear Vina Sir/ Madam,

If you are referring to the NUH project, it is not a 10 ton helicopter requirement. For your information, among the contenders:
Bell 429: MTOW: 3,175 kg
AS565 Panther: MTOW: 4,300 kg
S 76:MTOW: 5,307 kg
HAL Dhruv: 5,500 kg
Ka 226: 3800 kg

Deejay sir,
There is no mention of the NALH in Aroor's report in livefist. I sincerely hope that the ommision is not a sign of things to come..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 01 Nov 2017 23:04

What is the source of this claim that "EMALS need hugeee amount of power"?

Energy needed to propel an object weighing 30ton from stop to 150km/hour speed is 25M Joules. for 1 min charging time a 420KW power source would be sufficient. Lets more than double it to count for inefficiencies etc which would make it 1 MW. I am not even counting the power of the jet engine on the aircraft which would contribute near 50% of the energy.

Problems lie in storing 25 MJ of energy and ability to discharge all of it at very high drawdown rates launch time of 5-10sec? That is what US Navy is trying to solve
Last edited by Katare on 02 Nov 2017 03:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 01 Nov 2017 23:29

Simple questions only;

- The whole auto folding requirement was for medium helps and ALH failed that category for more than 1 reason (b/w 2 stools etc). Is that even a requirement for NUH?

- All new IN ships (except talwars) can accept a medium helo so what's reason for the "light" quality?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 02 Nov 2017 02:03

Katare wrote:What is the source of this claim that "EMALS need hugeee amount of power"?

Energy needed to propel an object weighing 30ton from stop to 150km/hour speed is 25M Joules. for 1 min charging time a 420KW power source would be sufficient. Lets more than double it to count for inefficiencies etc which would make it 1 MW. I am not even counting the power of the jet engine on the aircraft which would contribute near 50% of the energy.

Problems lie in storing 25 KJ of energy and ability to discharge all of it at very high drawdown rates launch time of 5-10sec? That is what US Navy is trying to solve


High speed flywheels or super capacitors can dump that amount of energy in seconds. Flywheels though heavy are well contained and don't lose efficiency in years to come as they are mostly steel. They also don't release hazardous chemicals or pose fire risk etc. There is wear and tear of parts though. Super capacitor banks take up less space and can be upgraded every 5-7 years if need be with more efficient ones.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 05:29

Rakesh wrote:India-US joint working group on aircraft carrier tech meets, studies Mig 29K flight ops
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 369058.cms

US Navy aircraft carrier team to check out India's Russian carrier
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/10/u ... check.html

https://twitter.com/usandindia/status/9 ... 4483665920 --> Nothing beats a day at sea. Thanks Indian Navy for hosting the Joint Working Grp for Aircraft Carrier Tech Coop on INS Vikramaditya.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 05:43

Navy's Women War-Fighters Hunt For Chinese Submarines In Indian Ocean
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/navys-women-war-fighters-hunt-for-chinese-submarines-in-indian-ocean-1769827?type=news&id=1769827&category=india-news

Indian Navy women combatants now operate as highly skilled system specialists on P-8I anti-sub aircraft

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 05:45

How exercises with Japan will help India assess Pakistan's main Anti-Submarine Aircraft
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/how-exe ... india-news

Japan's anti-submarine crews with their Indian counterparts in front of Japanese Navy P-3 aircraft in Goa

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 06:02

India to boost target detection capability of its Warships with advanced sonars
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017110110 ... -detetion/

"The DAC approved a $70 million proposal to procure nine active towed array sonar systems for frontline warships. This will help in submarine detection capabilities," an official who wished to remain anonymous told Sputnik.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 06:13

Vice Admiral Karambir Singh assumes charge of India's strategic Eastern Naval Command
http://www.timesnownews.com/india/artic ... and/116225

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/9 ... 9724678144 --> Vice Admiral Karambir Singh, AVSM assumes charge as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Eastern Naval Command at Visakhapatnam today. Last appointment held by the Flag Officer was Vice Chief of Naval Staff at Naval HQ.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 08:57

The Russians may in fact be chuffed to see Yanquis visiting one of their Sov. era carriers,after the Kuz's good show in Syria of which they're very proud.AS's report also underscores the huge cost of a US style CV which is most likely to be postponed / or cut down to size-read Vik-2 sister ship, on the cost factor.Even a QE sized carrier would cost a bomb with all the bells and whistles.

EMALS is a huge expense and the power reqs. well spelt out.Personally,if we are to need larger CVs in the future,then they should be N-powered.Get the reactor from Russia if the west says no.After all we're acquiring carrier tech from diverse sources not from a "one-stop-shop".Such carrier needs can be assessed within the next 4-5 years.Any such vessel would be arriving post 2030.
The current top priority is subs and the next decade used to plug the gaps and build up the sub fleet at speeded for both AIP and N-subs.
Until then a sister ship of the VIK-2 would suffice .

What we must firmly do is to design the contours of the carrier meant to last 40--50 yrs. for our needs not copying or being induced by firang salesmen.Ideally a decade+ would also give us enough time to develop a naval AMCA or even plan for a naval version of the FGFA on the cards in the same timeframe instead of going "back to the future".

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vina » 02 Nov 2017 10:17

deejay wrote:Dear Vina Sir/ Madam,

If you are referring to the NUH project, it is not a 10 ton helicopter requirement. For your information, among the contenders:s


I was referring to the original N-ALH requirement to replace Sea Kings in SAR and also ASW, and even ASuW. Obviously for these roles you need a 10 ton to 12 Ton helicopter .

Also for the Utility role, maybe the NALH is "too much" and NLUH probably fits the bill, Dunno. But that would "over optimising" things. The Navy should probably just go with the N-ALH for the utility role (now that the NALH would be mature and fully debugged) and just go with it.

JMT etc.. etc.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 02 Nov 2017 11:06

NUH is in 3.5-4 T Class so its neither the Dhruv or LUH/Ka-226 , this will be a new class of chopper

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 11:12

Perhaps acquisition and operating costs lesser for a smaller twin-engined LUH-N.The Chetaks were used aboard the OPVs and could carry ASW LWTs too. What the new specs will be is unknown at the moment until the contenders appear.A casual ck. on the cost,a naval variant of the KA-226 around $4M,say could be around $4.5M,and the cost of a std. Dhruv. around $6.5M,naval variant about say $7M.Even if there is a $2M diff/per helo,for 100+ it would work out to $200M+ ,quite a lot of moolah between a med. and light sized bird.The LUHs will be used more for the comnns. role,ship-to-shore,ship-to-ship,shore-to-shore,flights,transferring personnel and cargo,etc. The ASW duties a more sophisticated req. What onboard sensors will be carried a Q, like a small dunking sonar,sonobuyos and LWTs. For this,a larger ALH /similar sized bird would've been preferable,but a Q remains whether the LUH will carry the extra eqpt. or merely pursue the sub with data input from the warship concerned,and drop ASW munitions at the designated location with a minimum of SASW gear.Costs being cheaper and the number of smaller platforms which also require a naval helo is perhaps why the new LUH-N must possess some fundamental ASW capability.

The larger SK sized MR/ASW helos would be fully equipped with dunking sonars,etc.,plus workstations for prosecuting the sub/surface vessels independent of the mother ship.

There is a naval variant of the KA-226 with folding blades launched last Dec. No idea about weaponry that can be carried,etc.This in one respect meets the reqs. supposedly in this old report.

Why Navy’s Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) Tender is Bad news for HAL’s LUH and Kamov Ka 226-T Published August 24, 2017 | By admin SOURCE: VISHAL KARPE / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG Request for Information issued by Indian Navy to procure approximately 111 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) along with two flight simulators, one maintenance simulator and infrastructure including Transfer of Technology (ToT) could spell end game for HAL’s effort to get Indian Navy on board its Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) to replace its ageing HAL developed Cheetah and Chetak helicopters in service with Indian Navy . Navy in its RFI made it clear that Helicopters other than capable of carrying out routine operations like Search and Rescue, Medical Evacuation, Communication Duties, Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief (HADR) will also need to carry at least one light weight Anti Submarine Torpedo for sub surface operations along with Radar and sensor package required for Target Detection . Tender documents for 111 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) has provision for only 15 Basic version of Helicopter and reminder 96 Helicopters are required to have sub surface operation capabilities, which means the whole fleet of Indian Navy’s Next Generation Naval Utility Helicopters will be equipped with Torpedo carrying capabilities. Indian Army and Indian Airforce have already selected HAL’s Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Russian designed Kamov Ka 226-T Light utility helicopter to replace its vintage fleet of HAL developed Cheetah and Chetak helicopters in their service, while Navy was officially never onboard this projects it was expected that Navy Specific variants will be developed over the course of time which could be suitable for ship based operations. HAL in anticipation of Indian Navy coming on board soon on its Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) program had developed a new foldable rotor system which allowed it to be kept in ship’s hangar facility but requirement for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) operations could mean HAL’s LUH is unlikely to compete in the tender due to past failures to develop an anti-submarine warfare (ASW) variant of HAL Dhruv. Indo-Russian Joint Company which will manufacture nearly 200 of the KA 226 light choppers for the Indian armed forces in India soon, but KA 226 too will not qualify due non-folding rotor blades and its inability to carry weapons like torpedoes & depth charges required for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) operations. Procurement for Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) been turned into a full fledged light anti-submarine warfare (ASW) operations platform could be Navy’s way to keep in sync with emerging threat perception in the region with construction of Chinese Naval bases in the Indian Ocean and also due to increasing number of Chinese Submarine operations in the area. Indian Navy also has issued Request for Information for procurement of 123 Naval Multi-role Helicopters, with anti-submarine warfare capabilities which with 111 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) Helicopters will allow Indian Navy to have the largest fleet of Helicopters with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities in the region.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/why-navys-naval-utility ... -ka-226-t/ .

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 11:32

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 935429.ece
1st Scorpene submarine to be commissioned soon
AMRITA NAIR-GHASWALLA

Indigenous submarine production schedule goes for a toss

MUMBAI, OCTOBER 31:
Cancellations and delays have bogged the Indian Navy’s plans to induct the Scorpene class submarine, a critical asset for the forces. Though the first Scorpene submarine Kalvari was delivered in September to the Indian Navy at the Mazagon Dock shipyard, its commissioning continues to be held over for one reason or the other.

The Navy could be looking to commission INS Kalvari next month, sources pointed out, timing it with the 50th year of Indian submarine operations. The Indian Navy’s submarine arm was founded in December 1967.

Revised schedule

Kalvari is named after the dreaded Tiger Shark, a deep sea predator, and the commissioning of the second Kalvari, holds special significance. The expected date is mid-November or end-November, said Navy officials.

The original schedule of delivery of the first submarine, manufactured by Mazagaon Docks in Mumbai with technology transfer from Naval (earlier DCNS) of France, was December 2012. The date has since been revised several times.

Despite the many delays and the absence of its primary weapon, the black shark torpedoes, the submarine's presence, whilst it underwent sea trials, emphasises India’s efforts at rejuvenating its indigenous submarine production programme, officials at Mazagon Docks pointed out.

30-year plan

In 2002, Mazagon Docks Ltd in Mumbai, was identified as the yard to construct the Scorpene submarines. Commodore Anil Jai Singh, Vice-President of the Indian Maritime Foundation, told BusinessLine that the genesis of the Scorpene submarine project, called Project 75, lay in the Defence Ministry’s 30-year plan for indigenous submarine construction, which was approved in 1999 by the Cabinet Commitee.

The plan was to have 24 indigenous submarines. Commodore Singh was involved in drafting the Navy’s 30-year submarine construction plan and the 15-year ship building plan.

The 30-year plan envisaged the parallel development of two production lines, Project 75 and Project 75 (I), each devoted to the manufacture of six submarines. During the first ten years, there was to be licensed manufacture of the submarines.

Officials said “the aim was to have the first production line by 2005 and simultaneously start work on the second production line. With two Indian submarine builders and two foreign submarine builder counterparts, with subs based on their design, India was originally supposed to build six subs by 2013-14.”

The Navy was intended to “evolve its own design based on the initial two sub designs” and by 2030, the Navy was expected to have 24 modern subs, with two fully functional production lines that would produce submarines every alternate year.

However, the entire project has been beset with growth spurts. There were several difficulties faced by Mazagon Docks in procurement of material from foreign vendors, which led to delays.

Though the Mumbai-based shipyard undertook augmentation of production capabilities, manpower, infrastructure and industrial means in a phased manner, the first Scorpene submarine has not yet been commissioned, 12 years after it was originally proposed. :oops:
*(This is simply absurd.A 12 yr building period for the first sub means that by the time the entire series is complete the boat would be somewhat obsolete.Russia and China are building boats one every 2-3 years and SoKo one approx. every 3 yrs. too!)

Incidentally, the first Scorpene submarine has been named Kalvari, and is the second submarine with the same name.
The first Kalvari, commissioned in December 1967, was also the first submarine of the Indian Navy.
It was decommissioned on May 31, 1996, after 30 years of service.

The second Scorpene submarine Khanderi was launched in January 2017, and is currently undergoing sea trials. The third Scorpene submarine is Karanj, and is being readied for launch.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 02 Nov 2017 11:47

Scorpene submarine deal was signed in October 2005 And IN would be getting it practically in Jan 2018 took around 12 plus years to get the first of class commisioned !

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 12:00

Comments made by Admiral Arun Prakash former CNS on the IN's "Indian Naval Indigenisation Plan" (INIP) a few months ago.
"Our Achilles heel is our lethargic mil-industrial complex,managed by bureaucrats and scientists with no accountability.Unless we can produce machinery,weapons,sensors and ammunition indigenously,our navy cannot sustain blue-water maritime operations for any length of time.This will not happen overnight-and we have not even made a start yet. It is not relatedt to funding but envisioning and planning," Prakash asserted.

The Indo-Japanese naval exercises also involving P-3 Orions of the Japanese forces,appears not just to give an insight into Pak's US supplied Orions,but an attempt to offload Japan's 60+ P-3s of which it is in the process of replacing.Turboprops are better at the "low and slow" prosecution of subs and the IN still operates it 5 IL-38SDs which are the Ru equiv. of the P-3.These 5 have been uprgaded not too long ago. There is still a req. for more ASW MRP aircraft.If these legacy P-3s in good condition,equipped with the same avionics and ASW eqpt. that are aboard our P-8Is,and available for a song (in Japanese!),then both the IN and JSDF operating the same ASW LRMP aircraft would be able to cooperate better in monitoring Chinese sub movements in the Asia-Pacific,transferring of data made easier with the same eqpt. being used. Japan selling these used P-3Cs to other littoral IOR/IICS nations such as Vietnam,etc. would hugely benefit the "string-of-black pearls" ,the anti-Chin "necklace'" that can be woven around China. The key factor is sharing of intel,esp.real- movements of Chinese subs and warships.Armed with that knowledge the individual nations can prosecute Chin forces should they be attacked either alone or with fellow travellers.India could happily do the biz itself.

Reading another piece questioning why we want more Talwars when we are building larger Shivaliks,the dates given for P-17 construction says it all.7-8 yrs. a ship! The 10 yr. delay in the arrival of the new Vikrant,anticipated only by 2023.It may be "commissioned" as is the IN's practice of recent times,without SAMs,and other key eqpt.,which is a blatant fudge that should be stopped in the future.Scorpenes without torp4edoes,etc.,warships without SAMs,helos,etc.A sick joke.We're lucky that the Chins and Pakis haven't (yet) made use of the window of opportunity to "teach us another lesson." The lack of "accountability" that Admiral Prakash spoke of in the Indian mil-industrial complex,almost entirely state-owned,has to cease.The biggest decision that the Modi regime can make benefiting the nation is to enforce accountability with a vengeance,esp. in the defence sector where billions of poor taxpayer's money is perpetually funding these incompetent entities headed by leeches and parasites.
Last edited by Philip on 02 Nov 2017 12:40, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 02 Nov 2017 12:26

Indranil wrote:Deejay,

Will the NLUH be too small for the requirements? ALH has been optimized for Indian conditions and I am very sure the lessons will be carried over to NLUH. I think the timelines of NLUH being given operation clearance and a SP starting production will be quite similar.


Indranil, As far as I could glean, it seems IN has specifically asked for twins even in the replacement of Cheetah/ Chetaks owing to the increased roles over sea. NLUH therefore does not make the cut and the IN requirement is therefore separated from IA/ IAF requirement in the light category.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 13:07

Looking at prospective candidates,these which appear OK seem to be closer to the ALH in size! Should the bird be given another chance ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 02 Nov 2017 17:13

Austin wrote:NUH is in 3.5-4 T Class so its neither the Dhruv or LUH/Ka-226 , this will be a new class of chopper


Despite Chetak’s well thought explanation this still bothers me a whole lot. How are Navy’s complaints about the Dhruv’s size falling between “two stools” solved by a new 4-T class that also falls between Chetak and heavy?

Also, the folding blade, undercarriage, etc. issues detailed in the Shukla blog are from 2008! We cannot fix things in a decade’s time or were there even any attempts to?

It seems things are set up deliberately by the IN to get a nice firangi helo in the Panther/Dauphin class which to be honest is the archtypical general purpose type used by most European and Asian navies as well as their coast guards. It is the main utility helo of the US CG too.

But HAL did not do itself any favors by not addressing these concerns with new prototypes. Just a sad state of affairs. We are under so much pressure because of budget — 36 Rafales onlee, IAC2 frozen, etc. and yet what we have goes directly to someone else’s MIC.

This one will cost us $4B going out to firangis. Four Talwars will cost us $4B too. My god, a billion per frigate at Russian “friendship” prices. The whole LCA project was around $1B onlee. We are addicted like a junkie to foreign maal where we must spend whatever little we have on their drugs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 02 Nov 2017 17:38

We're lucky that the Chins and Pakis haven't (yet) made use of the window of opportunity to "teach us another lesson."


No it is not luck but a matter of geo-politics and geography. It is this insane dhoti-shivering about imminent threats from pak and chin that got us into this import addiction. “We must have the best phoren maal right here, right now. We can’t wait for a desi solution because we could be attacked today!” Stupid self-doubting bullshit without a realistic look at the lay of the land.

Insane. Paki and Cheen are shit military powers. Pak we can handle with both hands tied behind our backs. We can and have kicked that mangy dog to death with just one foot. Cheen? No war in 5 decades and after the Doklam, I don’t think we’ll see a chini war in our lifetime. They play to their strength and that is not war.

Build our military industrial complex. Don’t give in to dhoti shivering and buy buy buy from some fvcking phoren catalog. What we have will more than protect us while we build our MIC.

Read my posts in the Eleven thread. Under Xi the PRC are gearing for high technology paired with their production. They will not fight wars but they will build a military so large that the can flood any area they chose and change the facts on the ground. You cannot fight this with imports, you need a MIC that matches theirs.
Last edited by chola on 02 Nov 2017 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rupak » 02 Nov 2017 17:49

chola wrote:
Austin wrote:NUH is in 3.5-4 T Class so its neither the Dhruv or LUH/Ka-226 , this will be a new class

It seems things are set up deliberately by the IN to get a nice firangi helo in the Panther/Dauphin class which to be honest is the archtypical general purpose type used by most European and Asian navies as well as their coast guards. It is the main utility helo of the US CG .


The paradox is that the Dolphin as the Dauphin is called in USCG service is delayed on their cutter with manually folded rotors, including in Arctic waters.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 18:07

Indo-Ru deals are often a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma, but perhaps there is a key..."

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 03 Nov 2017 16:07

ShauryaT wrote:Given the ALH's larger tonnage and MTOW compared to the RFI for the Naval NRMH, the ALH will provide better specs for time on air and ability to carry all types of gizmos for ASW roles compared to the LUH class Helos? Get that auto fold issue solved along with some other minor things and we should be home. The only downside I see with the ALH is its higher operations cost compared to the LUH class but then if the IN really needs that time on air and MTOW then they will not get it with the LUH class. These following two requirements seem to contradict each other.

The first 15 helicopters will be in basic configuration with the ability to undertake SAR, casualty evacuation (CASEVAC), anti-piracy and anti-terrorism missions in addition to passenger and cargo transport.


The remaining 96 helicopters will be delivered "fully Configured", and capable of performing the anti-submarine warfare mission. They also need a radar warning receiver (RWR), missile approach warning system (MAWS) and countermeasure dispensing system (CMDS).

The twin-engine utility helicopters are expected to be in the five-tonne weight category. The RFI also asks for the ability to integrate torpedoes, sensors and avionics of Indian, western, and Russian origin.


One would think this is tailor made for the ALH, but based on the vendors chosen, god only knows what is going on.


Unfortunately, for all concerned, the IN ALH tragedy was very heavily influenced by the seaking lobby (+ DRDO) and it's operations because the project guys were mostly seaking oriented in operational experience and and that was all that they knew. An overconfident manufacturer did not help matters in the least. Project management was replaced by politics as is this manufacturers style since times immemorial.

The seaking has an effed up hydraulic blade fold system that caused no end of problems whereas the kamov 25 had a much simpler, reliable and lighter electrical blade fold system with a manual backup. IIRC, the Ka-28 just had a manual blade fold system, doing away with the electrics completely. The seaking lobby was filled with "beautiful" people whereas the kamov lot were virtually outcasts. In terms of capability, the Kamov was actually better than the seaking.

The IN was really banking upon the ALH for its needs. It ultimately became a payload vs fuel issue leading to limited endurance and thereby impacting its effectiveness. The sonar winch was "reverse engineered" :lol: by a private company and the dunking sonar was built by DRDO. The manufacturers were completely out of their depth.

The IA took to the ALH, warts and all, like a duck to water because for them with their limited experience of cheetah/chetak, even the absolutely plain jane version of the ALH was like a Su-30 MKI upgrade.

The manufacturers had bitten off much more than they could chew and desperately tried to politic their way out of the self made disaster by lobbying the ministry. They almost succeeded but for one specific IN chief who put his foot down.

If they hadn't foolishly grabbed the project from MBB at that crucial stage when they did, MBB would have solved most of the issues simply because they were being paid to do it and the germans always delivered what they promised.

que sera sera, no??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 03 Nov 2017 20:07

^^^ Good post again, Chetak. Learning a lot. But unfortunately this fuels anger.

1) can the IN not accept something a little less advance from the indigenous manufacturer like the IA did?

2) can the indigenous manufacturer be honest with the current model’s capability and work towards a better one in the future?

If our armed forces cannot accept anything less capable than the market with all the mature phoren firms pffering mature wares then how we can EVER grow our own MIC? The nation can’t be expected provide fully mature systems suddenly even as it starts up.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 03 Nov 2017 21:23

chola wrote:^^^ Good post again, Chetak. Learning a lot. But unfortunately this fuels anger.

1) can the IN not accept something a little less advance from the indigenous manufacturer like the IA did?

2) can the indigenous manufacturer be honest with the current model’s capability and work towards a better one in the future?

If our armed forces cannot accept anything less capable than the market with all the mature phoren firms pffering mature wares then how we can EVER grow our own MIC? The nation can’t be expected provide fully mature systems suddenly even as it starts up.


I can't go beyond this on an open forum but suffice it to say there were serious unresolved issues from the manufacturer's end that impacted on operations/safety. The IN did wholeheartedly pitch in to try and help resolve some of the issues but the manufacturer was recalcitrant. They displayed a marked NIH, (aka, the dreaded "not invented here") syndrome.

The IN went so far as to install the ELTA and the LRDE radar on the ALH and carried out extensive trials, with the radar manufacturer's reps in attendance, on both radars, to see if something could be salvaged from the project.

Like I said, que sera sera.

BTW, the prices being charged to the forces are premium prices so why should anyone accept degraded performance??

Are lives to be wasted because some ahole could not do his technical sums?? even after loudly and publicly guaranteeing a "superior" product??

The total costs, buried artfully over a number of years, bad to indifferent customer service and a recurring PSU attitude of "lump it and just take it because you have nowhere else to go" is what pisses off everyone.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 Nov 2017 21:42

V.well put.Glad to see someone give credit to the humble Kamov and less sophisticated systems that are more reliable and do the biz.Unless the end-user service is part of the team and given due respect for the requirements,etc.desired by his service,you get a donkey
Instead of a racehorse.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 03 Nov 2017 22:50

Dunking sonars from the place IN wants can be installed. What is necessary is a stable platform that will serve our needs well for next 30-40 years. I hope dhruv wins the order.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby bhavani » 03 Nov 2017 23:02

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/news/a28565/the-navy-is-set-to-retire-its-biggest-surface-combatants/

It looks like US is retiring around 11 ticonderoga class cruisers starting 2019. These are the Mk41 Models with 122 VLS Cells. If we can buy around 4 of them - at around $300 Million price and around another 100 million for refurbishment. It would be a real steal.

I only wonder if US Gov will allow the sale and what SAM's will they sell us. BUt these ships would be on par with the new Kolkata class and more heavily armed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 03 Nov 2017 23:07

Why do you think they are being retired?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 03 Nov 2017 23:19

I was hoping in the article that there was something about the US selling the Ticos.

But like mothballed carriers and SSNs, these are strategic assets. Nobody can get them not even Brits. Maybe if Germany were in charge of the French and the UK was in danger of invasion and there was another Lend-Lease program like WWII.

They are larger than the P15A/B by half and have unholy firepower. The Kolkata have a third of their missiles.

They would be a “nice to have” for sure!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby bhavani » 03 Nov 2017 23:50

brar_w wrote:Why do you think they are being retired?

I think it is about their budgets and with uber expensive stuff like virginia class submarine and zumwalt class, i think they are out of money to support so many Ticonderogas. Also they are restarting the Arleigh_Burke line for FLight 3 (42 ships).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 04 Nov 2017 00:01

They are old (the youngest would be close to 30 years old by 2023) and as such not worth upgrading and maintaining with a life extension given the cost associated in both doing it and then operating them. Hence the split while maintaining a subset of the fleet while retiring the ones that are prohibitively expensive to upgrade given the diminishing returns. It will be Burke Flt. IIIs and a future cruiser strategy is also in the works with an LPD based solution (capable of carrying the 10,000 module/side AMDR-s) being more likely given risk and cost for rapid development and induction. A cruiser bow-wave was expected given the Ticonderoga's acquisition strategy in the 1980s.

For the IN, Best not to consider buying 2-3 decade old vessels.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby bhavani » 04 Nov 2017 00:36

brar_w wrote:They are old (the youngest would be close to 30 years old by 2023) and as such not worth upgrading and maintaining with a life extension given the cost associated in both doing it and then operating them. Hence the split while maintaining a subset of the fleet while retiring the ones that are prohibitively expensive to upgrade given the diminishing returns. It will be Burke Flt. IIIs and a future cruiser strategy is also in the works with an LPD based solution (capable of carrying the 10,000 module/side AMDR-s) being more likely given risk and cost for rapid development and induction. A cruiser bow-wave was expected given the Ticonderoga's acquisition strategy in the 1980s.

For the IN, Best not to consider buying 2-3 decade old vessels.

The condition of these ships is real good. US navy is of a different size, Budgets and operational tempo. I dont think we should compare us to them. These ships do not need any huge upgrades. US will probably disable a lot of capablities in terms of Electronic warfare and communications etc etc. I even suspect if US will sell these ships to US. If you compare these ships to out latest Kolkata ships, They have better Guns, Missiles and Radars.

Indian navy bought USS Trenton which was launched in 1966, currently INS Jalashwa.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 04 Nov 2017 00:53

The condition of these ships is real good. US navy is of a different size, Budgets and operational tempo. I dont think we should compare us to them. These ships do not need any huge upgrades. US will probably disable a lot of capablities in terms of Electronic warfare and communications etc etc. I even suspect if US will sell these ships to US. If you compare these ships to out latest Kolkata ships, They have better Guns, Missiles and Radars.


The problem with buying an expensive O&S ship that is at the end of service life is that the combat system upgrade alone will cost a ton and given the remaining service life you buy back through an extension, it will come to a major expenditure when given the timeframe being considered. This is a headache best avoided just like the USN is doing. At some point, even impressive capability via upgrades begins to show diminishing returns given that you can't use it as much to justify the high upfront cost and subsequent operational cost associated with a vessel that needs to be upgraded to extend service life.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 04 Nov 2017 03:24

A huge mismatch in weaponry and sensors.Maintaining two diff."sets " of weapons ,etc. will be a nightmare whether the ships were even new.Take even Arjun MK-1 relatively new.The problem it is facing now is that with the high foreign content,and non-availability of spares /components even from abroad coupled with a poor desi food chain,the tank's availability % is dropping.30 yr. old warships from any navy would face serious problems of maintenance for the same reason,old tech. not being manufactured any more. We suffered a lot after the SU collapsed.Why Indonesia when offered heaps of ex-Sov. warships for peanuts turned to us for a hopeful guarantee of support,spares ,etc. since we operated so much of Sov. eqpt.,but we couldn't do so and they dropped the plan.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 04 Nov 2017 03:30

The IN must however standardise on platforms and build large numbers of types.A min of 10-12 of every type from DDGs to corvette.FACs even greater numbers.The same hull could be used for diff. designs.This will bring down unit cost ,operations cost,weaponry and sensor cost and maintenance costs too.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 04 Nov 2017 12:12

Cybaru wrote:Dunking sonars from the place IN wants can be installed. What is necessary is a stable platform that will serve our needs well for next 30-40 years. I hope dhruv wins the order.


If the platform was considered stable by the IN which, incidentally, was the first to pitch in by providing considerable funds for its development, this sorry situation would not have come to pass.

Fix the platform first, else it is a deal breaker. sonar fonar are mere afterthoughts.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Nov 2017 08:09

Indian Navy carrier may get US aircraft launching system
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... NI5OL.html

Ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi meeting US President Donald Trump on November 13, the India and the US made some progress with a proposed Indian Navy carrier to be fitted with electric propelled latest electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) and powered by integrated electric propulsion. The 11 member US team led by Rear Admiral Brian Antonio, Program Executive Officer, aircraft carriers met his Indian counterpart Vice Admiral D M Deshpande, Controller Warship Production and Acquisition in Goa from October 29-31.

The visit of the US team to India’s sole aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on October 31 ruffled the Russians with Moscow protesting to India through diplomatic channels about taking Americans to a Russian built platform. The protests, according to South Block officials, were brushed aside as the bilateral sale agreement does not impose any such conditions on India. In any case, former US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter had also visited INS Vikramaditya with then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on April 16, 2016.

Sources said that at the meeting of the joint working group on aircraft carrier technology, the US was ready to power the EMALS with integrated electric propulsion rather than nuclear power as the cost of latter alone is over $ 1 billion or Rs 6.5 thousand crore. This will involve installation of giant capacitors for storage and discharge of power. The proposed ship, labelled IAC -II, will be powered by heavy fuels instead of nuclear reactors as the cost of the latter runs into prohibitive Rs 2 lakh crore. The decision to stick to electric propulsion was taken as maintenance and disposal costs of nuclear aircraft carriers are very high. The proposed cost of electrically propelled carrier will be around Rs 1.5 lakh crore.

While the figures of development of IAC -II are mindboggling, the fact remains that India needs a minimum of two aircraft carriers to guard its east and west coast and dominate the Indian Ocean and beyond. With Chinese PLA Navy’s focus shifting to carrier based aviation to project power in East and North Asia, India along with its allies needs long sea legs to ensure that sea lanes of communications and overflights are not unilaterally restricted by any aggressor. In January, the Indian Navy had issued a request for intent for 57 carrier based aircraft following which the US (for F-18), France (Rafale), Sweden (Sea Grippen) and Russia (MiG-29 K) submitting detailed proposals by May. It is understood that President Trump is expected to discuss the F-18 and F-16 offer to India during his meeting with PM Modi to boost military capacities and dominance.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Nov 2017 08:20

Despite cash crunch, navy eyes new warships worth Rs 45,000 crore by year-end
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/11/d ... s-new.html

Tenders are maturing, but the navy its constrained by its lowest warship budget since 2011-12

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2017 11:03

http://www.businessinsider.in/amid-simm ... 475811.cms
Amid simmering tensions with China, India is looking to gain an advantage at sea
CHRISTOPHER WOODYNOV 3, 2017, 07.41 AM
Indian Navy REUTERS/Jim Bourg Indian sailors watch military vehicle on parade during India's Republic Day parade in New Delhi, January 26, 2015.
India is increasingly wary of Chinese activity in the Indian Ocean.
In response, India has worked to boost its military capacity and build partnerships with countries in the region.

A spike in tensions between China and India along their shared border in the Himalayas this summer eased in August, but the two Asian powers are still at odds.

China has grown its influence in the region through commercial and infrastructure deals with countries throughout Asia, including those that border India.

Beijing's expanding ties have concerned its neighbors, perhaps none more so than India, which regards Chinese activity in the Indian Ocean warily.
As a result, New Delhi has sought to strengthen its diplomatic ties with neighbors and bolster its military capacity - drawing on longstanding relations with the US and other partners in the region to do so.

India Navy Reuters An Indian soldier.
China has pursued commercial port and infrastructure projects in Sri Lanka , Myanmar, and Pakistan and has opened facilities in the Seychelles and Djibouti , the stated purposes of which include humanitarian and anti-piracy efforts, though they appear to have military uses as well.

India, for its part, has continued its years-long efforts to build security relationships with its neighbors in the region, and it appears to be taking a more muscular approach to defending its interests, putting a special focus on its maritime approaches.

A document released by the Indian navy in late 2015 noted that the country's "prominent peninsular orientation and flanking island chains overlook strategic sea lanes in the Indian Ocean, linking her security and prosperity inextricably to the seas."

India navy ship vessel Philippines REUTERS/Romeo Ranoco Indian sailors aboard INS Kadmatt arrive for a four-day goodwill visit in the Philippines, October 3, 2017.
Chinese activity in the seas surrounding India has also led New Delhi to shift its strategic posture.

After long focusing on the country's northern borders, Indian leaders have turned their attention to the country's nearly 5,000-mile-long southern coastline, where security and energy infrastructure is concentrated.

"This is a tectonic shift in India's security calculus, that it has to protect its southern flank," Brahma Chellaney, a strategic-studies professor at the Center for Policy Research, told The New York Times this summer.

In July, Japan, India, and the US took part in the latest iteration of the Malabar naval exercises , in which anti-submarine warfare was a major component.

Maritime security was a focus of the Indian defense minister's bilateral meetings with Japanese officials in September. It was also slated to be a topic of discussion during Defense Secretary Jim Mattis' trip to India in late September.

In October, India and Indonesia - both democracies and neighbors on the Indian Ocean - carried out another round of biannual joint naval patrols, aimed at boosting interoperability between their forces.

India navy submarine shipyard REUTERS/Shailesh Andrade/File Employees stand in front of the Indian navy's first Scorpene submarine before being undocked from Mazagon Docks, a naval-vessel ship-building yard, in Mumbai, April 6, 2015.
During the last days of October, India and Japan carried out intensive anti-submarine warfare exercises in the Indian Ocean, involving naval aircraft from both countries.
French Defense Minister Florence Parly was also recently in India, where she discussed the strategic situation in South Asia and helped prepare for French President Emmanuel Macron's visit in early December. India and France have also expanded their joint efforts to monitor activity in the Indian Ocean.

"We are sharing information in all formats - human, satellite and even electromagnetic as both the countries are worried about the implications that the Chinese expansion in the Indian Ocean region can mean to the international community," a senior French official reportedly said .

Japan is also expected to propose a strategic dialogue between it, the US, India, and Australia to counter Chinese expansion in Asia via its "Belt and Road" policy, which is aimed at establishing trade and transportation networks in the region.

MiG 29K aircraft INS Vikramaditya indian navy aircraft carrier Indian Navy A MiG-29K prepares land aboard Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya in 2014.
Alongside those diplomatic efforts, India has worked to improve and expand its military capacity, drawing up a list tens of billions of dollars of foreign fighter jets, armored vehicles, submarines, and helicopters it is looking and pursue a "Made in India" policy in order to develop its domestic defense industry.

The first of six diesel-electric advanced attack submarines - designed by a French firm and built in India - is expected to be commissioned in November or December. And this summer, New Delhi contacted foreign shipyards about building six nonnuclear submarines .

German and French shipbuilders have expressed interest in an Indian submarine contract worth up to $10 billion. India has also talked to Japan about buying advanced subs, but reaching a deal has been difficult for both sides.

India has agreed to buy US-made drones that could be used to track Chinese maritime activity and to purchase P-81 Neptune aircraft, one of the most advanced anti-submarine-warfare planes in the world. (The waters around the Malacca Strait, which connects the Indian and Pacific Oceans, are an area of focus for India.)

US Navy Indian navy sailors (US Navy Photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Tyler Preston/Released) Lt. Christopher Ground gives a tour to Indian sailors aboard Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Howard.
"I believe that the US is ready to help India modernize its military. India has been designated a major defense partner of the US. This is a strategic declaration that's unique to India and the US. It places India on the same level that we have many of our treaty allies," US Navy Adm. Harry Harris, head of Pacific Command, said in August.

Prior to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to the US this summer, India's defense minister went to Russia to address weapons deals that had been delayed, including the purchase of four frigates and the lease of a nuclear-powered submarine.

The Indian navy has asked Russian aircraft manufacturer MiG to " ruggedize " its MiG-29K aircraft to better withstand aircraft-carrier operations. India is also set to buy Russia's advanced S-400 missile-defense system. Russia also overhauled and updated the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier for India between 2004 and 2013, though New Delhi has pursued indigenously built aircraft carriers since.

India has contracted a South Korean firm to build minesweepers and with Russia to acquire fifth-generation fighters - those projects have foundered, however.

India imports about 90% of defense equipment, and its "Made in India" initiative seeks to bring foreign firms to India to partner with domestic companies - deals that would bring India's homegrown defense contractors up to global standards.


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