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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Jan 2018 04:52

IN wants them becos of delays to ships under construction and on order.Some are being delayed even further.There appears to be a fund crunch in general, delays leading to unused moolah being returned to the FM and the whole wretched rigmarole with babudom takes place to get the funds released again.Why the unused (authorised) funds can't be kept in some sort of escrow which can be immediately accessed when reqd. by the MOD/services without another FM review beats me.

The warships have performed very well in IN service, won sev. awards and if the IN has to achieve its goal of a 212 vessel fleet in 10 years time, desi- built warships and subs
will never be able to meet the goal/number even roping in pvt. yards, some who've been struggling to deliver less sophisticated ships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 02 Jan 2018 05:53

jaysimha wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins-kalvari-laden-old-torpedoes/1/1110637.html
Old torpedoes in new sub for Navy By Ajit K Dubey
Is this classic DDM reporting??

"The integration of the torpedoes is still going on but the main weapon for Kalvari would only be the new heavyweight torpedo for which a multi-vendor competition is going to be initiated in the near future," a source said

That's the problem with imported platforms. You also need to buy foreign weaponry integrated with them, which is Indian deals are done as a separate follow-on contract. End up with hodgepodge of weaponry each specific to a type of platform.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Jan 2018 12:25

There was one report that the Italian fish were also to be used on the ATVs.I frankly don't know why the ban on the WH fish wasn't lifted as it was the helo division in the Group responsible for the VVIP scam. Globally,there have been so man mergers taking place between defence cos. that we would be unable to obtain anything if similar scams appear in multi-co. MNC defence groups. The GOI of the day could've examined the issue ,scrutinised tyhe original deal for torpedoes and then "cleared the wheat from the chaff".We have a few new auxiliary fleet support vessels built recently by the same group.What happens now should we need spares,machinery,etc. for them?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 02 Jan 2018 19:33

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SELU_blLV ... e=youtu.be

INS Kalvari official video.

Check out the bow sonar, flank array sonar & intercept sonar. More sonars than any submarine in IN.

Note automatic classification of enemy ships graphically displayed based on their noise.

Exocet firing at decommissioned tug with UAV tracking missile & target.

Dramatic shot of emergency surfacing at 4:29

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 02 Jan 2018 19:50

jaysimha wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins-kalvari-laden-old-torpedoes/1/1110637.html
Old torpedoes in new sub for Navy By Ajit K Dubey
Is this classic DDM reporting??

"The integration of the torpedoes is still going on but the main weapon for Kalvari would only be the new heavyweight torpedo for which a multi-vendor competition is going to be initiated in the near future," a source said


Yes, classic DDM reporting. Weapons are manufactured much faster than platforms. We never purchase weapons simultaneously because they would get obsolete in storage during the time it takes for the platform is built. Weapons are always purchased after platform is built, tested and certified.

srai wrote:That's the problem with imported platforms. You also need to buy foreign weaponry integrated with them, which is Indian deals are done as a separate follow-on contract.


And what torpedos/tube launched missiles/other missiles do indigenous submarine/ship platforms use vis a vis imported platform that they don't have such "problems" that imported platforms have?

srai wrote:End up with hodgepodge of weaponry each specific to a type of platform.

Moore's law applies very viciously to weapons. Standardisation leads to block obsolescence that causes spikes in capital expenditure.

Batch purchases leads to technology upgrades being incorporated into new batches or in some cases new weapons systems. Spending on upgrades/replacement of a batch is less than whole stock.

The entire standardisation BS was started by LM for F-35 as a marketing gimmick with zilch practical benefits.

We standardized on MiG-21 from 60's to 80's and realised half the IAF fleet was obsolete in the 2000's.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 02 Jan 2018 21:07

tsarkar wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SELU_blLV5g&feature=youtu.be



Is that P15B at 0:54 & 1:30?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Jan 2018 21:56

Cheen is building CG ships on long range FFG hulls to deploy them cheaper all over the world on peace keeping, ELINT and flag waving missions while its armed navy concentrates on the SCS/YS.

the areas around the horn of africa, persian gulf and TSP coast will see these ships move in and PLAN ships move out.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 03 Jan 2018 08:37

tsarkar wrote:...
Moore's law applies very viciously to weapons. Standardisation leads to block obsolescence that causes spikes in capital expenditure.

Batch purchases leads to technology upgrades being incorporated into new batches or in some cases new weapons systems. Spending on upgrades/replacement of a batch is less than whole stock.

The entire standardisation BS was started by LM for F-35 as a marketing gimmick with zilch practical benefits.

We standardized on MiG-21 from 60's to 80's and realised half the IAF fleet was obsolete in the 2000's.
...

:mrgreen: Weapon systems aren't upgraded that frequently meaning they don't just replace an old chip with a new chip every 18-months. Requires a lot of qualifications. You don't have batch upgrades but version upgrades, which may or may not be available (each has their own developmental timelines) when you want to do your batch order. Besides, batch order are more for time expiry (say 10-years in storage before extension required) and less for version upgrade.

In any case, the deal is to purchase the whole lot of 100 xxx torpedoes for P-75, which are only specific to that platform. Mind you, orders are executed over time (10s/20s etc per year). These will serve for a long time on the Scorpene with mid-life upgrades. Look at SUT that has been around for a long time too. Same across the board for other weapon systems. Remains to be seen if the same torpedoes are going to be integrated on P-75I or will have yet again another torpedo only specific to that type. History indicates the latter.
Last edited by srai on 03 Jan 2018 09:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 03 Jan 2018 09:11

nam wrote:
tsarkar wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SELU_blLV5g&feature=youtu.be



Is that P15B at 0:54 & 1:30?

Superstructure of P15b is different and that video is from oct 2015 during which ins visakhapatnam was only launched. Even the latest photos show MF Star radar has not been installed yet. The ship in the video is INS Chennai iirc.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 13:58

Navy Jet Crashes As It Overshoots Runway In Goa, Pilot Safe, Airport Shut

Image
PANAJI: A MiG-29 K fighter jet of the navy skidded off the runway at Goa airport and crashed today. The pilot, a trainee, managed to eject safely from the aircraft, which caught fire after crashing. The airport located inside the naval base has been shut and firefighting is in progress, a senior airport official said.

A statement from the Defence Ministry spokesperson said the incident occurred when the fighter jet, manned by an trainee pilot, overshot runway. Goa airport operates from the Indian Naval base INS Hansa.


"All flights are likely to be delayed at Goa Airport as the runway is closed for operations due to Indian Navy's urgent operational requirements," Goa airport authorities said on Twitter.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kersi » 03 Jan 2018 15:05

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ The above video talks abt "Permasyn" motors , which, IIRC, is made by Siemens. The 2 x diesel engine comes from MAN. So looks like significant German input in the "move" category.


I think Scorpenes have a permanent magnet motor probably of Jeumont Schnieder - France. The diesel engines are of Pielstick - France but now owned by Wartsila - Finland.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jan 2018 15:43

So relieved to hear the pilot is safe and no other casualties. Feel for the pilot though. Even more tough on a newbie. Hope he/she puts it behind and moves ahead with courage.


Austin wrote:PANAJI: A MiG-29 K fighter jet of the navy skidded off the runway at Goa airport and crashed today. The pilot, a trainee, managed to eject safely from the aircraft, which caught fire after crashing. The airport located inside the naval base has been shut and firefighting is in progress, a senior airport official said.

A statement from the Defence Ministry spokesperson said the incident occurred when the fighter jet, manned by an trainee pilot, overshot runway. Goa airport operates from the Indian Naval base INS Hansa.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 03 Jan 2018 16:00

Manish_P wrote:So relieved to hear the pilot is safe and no other casualties. Feel for the pilot though. Even more tough on a newbie. Hope he/she puts it behind and moves ahead with courage.


Austin wrote:PANAJI: A MiG-29 K fighter jet of the navy skidded off the runway at Goa airport and crashed today. The pilot, a trainee, managed to eject safely from the aircraft, which caught fire after crashing. The airport located inside the naval base has been shut and firefighting is in progress, a senior airport official said.

A statement from the Defence Ministry spokesperson said the incident occurred when the fighter jet, manned by an trainee pilot, overshot runway. Goa airport operates from the Indian Naval base INS Hansa.



Ejected while skidding on the ground? Or did the ejection happened in the air as he approached the runway? First would mean most likely human error. Second could mean pilot sensed trouble with the aircraft and got out of there.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 03 Jan 2018 17:12

If he ejected before landing the plane would would have crash on landing. Most likely brakes failed or were inadequate. Typically, the rookie must have been in radio contact and adviced to eject when no chance of saving the fighter is ascertained.

But let the report come out.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 03 Jan 2018 17:39

srai wrote:Weapon systems aren't upgraded that frequently meaning they don't just replace an old chip with a new chip every 18-months. Requires a lot of qualifications. You don't have batch upgrades but version upgrades, which may or may not be available (each has their own developmental timelines) when you want to do your batch order.

Actually quite frequently. Just check the missiles on INS Delhi - initially it had 9M38 missiles but later replaced with 9M317 missiles
Old missile https://i.ytimg.com/vi/J7U85wrl1vs/maxresdefault.jpg

srai wrote:In any case, the deal is to purchase the whole lot of 100 xxx torpedoes for P-75, which are only specific to that platform.

Western torpedoes are interchangeable among classes, including Shalki and Arihant. Just like missiles like Harpoon. Only FCS needs to be fed torpedo/missile parameters and data required for torpedo/missile. Harpoons were fitted to Shalki without much difficulty. They can be fitted to Kalvari too.

http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files ... _14-21.pdf

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jan 2018 18:15

Indranil wrote:If he ejected before landing the plane would would have crash on landing. Most likely brakes failed or were inadequate. Typically, the rookie must have been in radio contact and adviced to eject when no chance of saving the fighter is ascertained.

But let the report come out.


The post mentions ''overshot runway''

So brake failure or high landing speed/late touchdown looks more likely. A minor possibility could be tyre burst.

As you have rightly said, the report will give clarity.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 18:27

Its an aborted take-off and then over shot the runway , such things happen unlike civil aircraft military aircraft dont have reverse thrust to slow things up actively so you need to be lucky and skilled both not to over shoot the runway

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 03 Jan 2018 18:40

Total right off

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jan 2018 20:20

Its an aborted take-off and then over shot the runway


Oh. Didn't read/realise that! That gives rise to other possibilities. Will have to see what the report indicates.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 20:51

Vishnu Som‏Verified account @VishnuNDTV

Vishnu Som Retweeted https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/9 ... 5068765184

Seen from the opposite angle ... it seems the MiG-29 incident wasn't too bad. Nose gear buckled - pilot didnt eject. Jet should be recovered.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 Jan 2018 20:53

Mil air bases usually have a net at the end of runways kept flat normally ,vertically in an emergency to stop aircraft overshooting and crashing into boundary walls-etc.DAB should have one for just an eventuality..
RN calls them CHAG ( chain arrestor gear), US , SPRAG ( spray arrestor gear) which is hydraulically operated.The control tower If it feels an overshoot is likely activates them.Even civil airports use them.They have even stopped a B-52 bomber!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jan 2018 21:43

There have been instances of the main gear failing/premature retraction/wrong setup in the Mig 29.. but nose gear failure seems to be rarer

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2018 21:55

The thing about the photos is it looks like the jet was moving along the taxiways and not the main runway

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 03 Jan 2018 23:43

tsarkar wrote:
srai wrote:Weapon systems aren't upgraded that frequently meaning they don't just replace an old chip with a new chip every 18-months. Requires a lot of qualifications. You don't have batch upgrades but version upgrades, which may or may not be available (each has their own developmental timelines) when you want to do your batch order.

Actually quite frequently. Just check the missiles on INS Delhi - initially it had 9M38 missiles but later replaced with 9M317 missiles
Old missile https://i.ytimg.com/vi/J7U85wrl1vs/maxresdefault.jpg

Even though the limitations of Orekh limit 9M317 range the switch over does greatly improves the ability to intercept super sonic AshM, 9m38 with top of speed of 800 m/s haslimitations when intercepting such targets.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 04 Jan 2018 00:15

Austin wrote:Navy Jet Crashes As It Overshoots Runway In Goa, Pilot Safe, Airport Shut


A statement from the Defence Ministry spokesperson said the incident occurred when the fighter jet, manned by an trainee pilot, overshot runway. Goa airport operates from the Indian Naval base INS Hansa.


"All flights are likely to be delayed at Goa Airport as the runway is closed for operations due to Indian Navy's urgent operational requirements," Goa airport authorities said on Twitter.


In some IAF documentaries, I saw a crash barrier made of stretchy cables that are supposed to catch a plane that is going to overshoot the runway. Something like this..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arresting_gear#Barricade

Could have saved the aircraft.. Perhaps Goa airbase does not have this?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2018 02:58

IAF uses aircraft arrestor barrier system (AABS) for 20 Ton and 40 Ton capacity developed by ADRDE in at least 21 locations. Two Mig-21s were saved in this fashion. But Goa does not have one of them.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 04 Jan 2018 11:01

Tx.From media reports and pics today, the aircraft in stru turally intact condition,no blackened areas due to the fire which mustv'e been put out quickly,veered off the runway, so any barrier would've been of no use.It looks most likely a landing gear problem. The ejector seat worked though! Another ad for the maker.Fuel drained safely from the aircraft.

One report said that this very same aircraft had some earlier wing/flap problems while in flight, pilot landed safely in that instance.Could that have recurred?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2018 07:00

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/948890363212611584 ---> MoD approves purchase of P-8I training solution along with 10-year comprehensive maintenance service from Boeing for Rs 1949.32 crore.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2018 07:31

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/948480914807386112 ---> The steel used in the Kalvari Class Submarines, 80 HLES, is however not going to be produced in India, because even for a run of 9 submarines, it just won't be economical.

Did the IN order another three Scorpene boats?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2018 07:33

Must see video on INS Kalvari - the Indian Navy's newest submarine....


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 06 Jan 2018 14:33

NAVY DOGFIGHT BEGINS: India Opens Talks With Boeing & Dassault

The Indian Navy has officially opened vendor discussions with Boeing Defense and Dassault Aviation under its most ambitious current aviation thrust, a quest for 57 multirole fighters to operate off its future aircraft carriers. Livefist can confirm that while the navy did receive four responses in response to its call for information last year, only two are being regarded as ‘serious contenders’.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/01 ... sault.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bart S » 06 Jan 2018 14:51

^Why not the F35? Or is not on offer to us?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 06 Jan 2018 15:33

Indranil wrote:If he ejected before landing the plane would would have crash on landing. Most likely brakes failed or were inadequate. Typically, the rookie must have been in radio contact and adviced to eject when no chance of saving the fighter is ascertained.

But let the report come out.


For the sake of Sanity - he was flying the Mig 29s. Not a rookie by any measure. Please do not use DDM terms on this forum at least.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 06 Jan 2018 16:46

7 more MiG-29K aircraft left to be inducted in Navy: Bahl
The Flag Officer Commanding Goa Naval Area, Rear Admiral Puneet K Bahl, has disclosed that there are still seven more MiG-29K aircraft to be inducted in Indian Navy, as per the contract signed between India and Russia, of the total 45 MiG-29K aircraft.

Speaking exclusively to this daily on Thursday, when asked whether the ill-fated MiG-29K aircraft which crashed while taking off from Dabolim airport runway on Wednesday afternoon is in a position to remain in the fleet or not, Rear Admiral Bahl said that the Navy had a total of 38 MiG-29K aircraft in its fleet, but now the number has reduced to 37 with the crash of one aircraft.

“As per the contract with Russia, they are supposed to deliver 7 more MiG-29K aircraft, of the total 45,” said Bahl, adding, the remaining 7 aircraft will be inducted as and when the Russians supply the aircraft and that there is no timeline for delivery of the same.

“We will assess the ill-fated aircraft to know the possibilities of its recovery and flying,” Bahl stated.


He however claimed that there was no fault in the aircraft since it was supplied by Russia after performing all flying tests, some eight years ago.

“In November 2013, the aircraft carrier was inducted in Indian Navy. The MiG-29K started flying from the aircraft carrier. Earlier, the aircraft would fly from the shore with availability of fly deck shore based test facility (SBTF) having key chains, replicating the conditions applied for flying the MiG-29K aircraft.”


Rear Admiral said that Navy will analyse the facts and also conduct an enquiry into the crash and extent of damage. “We have to conduct a survey of the ill-fated aircraft and also need to ascertain the status of it,” he said. He said the ill-fated aircraft’s under carriage and wings have been damaged.

“We suspended all the flights for an hour at Dabolim airport looking at the emergency after the crash of MiG-29K,” said Bahl. He further said that some four domestic flights were diverted, but later landed at Dabolim airport when the situation normalised.

He said investigation into the incident would take little more time since the investigating agencies have to collect information from data recorder and video recordings of the crash. “The flying operations and sorties of the MiG-29K will continue from the naval base INS Hansa,” he informed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 06 Jan 2018 16:53

ashishvikas wrote:NAVY DOGFIGHT BEGINS: India Opens Talks With Boeing & Dassault

The Indian Navy has officially opened vendor discussions with Boeing Defense and Dassault Aviation under its most ambitious current aviation thrust, a quest for 57 multirole fighters to operate off its future aircraft carriers. Livefist can confirm that while the navy did receive four responses in response to its call for information last year, only two are being regarded as ‘serious contenders’.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/01 ... sault.html

So the IN has $12 billion for the 57 Rafales?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 06 Jan 2018 17:37

^^^Yes.

If MoD approves, it will be done. The truth is the MoD’s delay of the IN’s third carrier (65K tons EMALS) probably frees up at least that amount in potential funds in the near term.

But we will pay for that carrier delay in the long term. If we want to stay relevant in the carrier space we’ll need to get off the STOBAR and into CATOBAR.

In the meantime, we will have the funds to buy the 57 fighters wanted by the Navy for our current carriers. Though the lifts on both the Vikramaditya and Vikrant are an issue which will make things even more expensive per plane if the IN insists Rafale or another western type.

Or we might end up saving money (but retaining more headaches) by just buying more MiG-29Ks and hoping the Rooskies fix things in the later builds.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 06 Jan 2018 18:08

There are many lesser expensive program and more urgent ones from operational pov that has not been funded for past 5 years , Not sure how they will fund $12 billion program , IN capex is the smallest of 3 serivice around $3-4 billion per year and 10 % gets returned to FM every year from Def Capex , This is more like Pie in the Sky type acquisation project the most expensive one projected till date and less realistic one too

Likely this will be a long drawn out program in the coming decade and this should be good news for Naval Tejas as this gives the program breathing space to get inducted in the Navy

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 06 Jan 2018 18:25

LIVEFIST wrote:Livefist can confirm that the Indian Navy isn’t regarding by the same measure of seriousness the two other responses it has received — from Russia for the MiG-29K and from Sweden’s Saab for the concept Gripen Maritime.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/01 ... sault.html



If the article above is even remotely accurate, then it is quite shocking given that MiG is the incumbant and therefore would in any other case be the favorite for a follow-on order.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2018 21:30

I think IN has given up on the MiG-29s ability to be navalized. Its a trouble prone bird which will just act as a small silver bullet force (if we are lucky) and not be fixed. IN is logistically best served in taking the Rafale and seeking commonality with the AF. The E/F will have a more powerful radar though, important for the IN which doesn't have AEW&C, but depends on whether they look at it the same way.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 06 Jan 2018 21:46

The IN cant really afford 57 Rafale or other type when IAF with a larger capex cant afford it , If this was for the purchase of 12-15 aircraft this would have seem a realistic choice , expect the program to undergo long period of dormancy in MOF and MOD and if this deal every comes through in original number of 57 it would be atleast for another 10-12 years !

IN has too many other requirements to meet then worry about purchasing 57 Aircraft at such exorbitant cost ! Some thing as critical as ASW aircraft has not yet passed MOD muster and has been on the works for 5-6 years now navy is forced to upgrade Seaking and Kamov till they get any ASW chopper


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