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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 31 Oct 2017 01:19

Where is the Russo-Pak angle on all this? Nowhere mentioned.The crucial point is that we do not have a global expeditionary warfare agenda like the US or UK and therefore at this time of economic stress do not need to be a copycat carrierwise which only benefits the "Quad " allowing interoperability and the cloning of our carrier warfare with that of the US.Our carrier is to have EMALS and be equipped for F-18s from which US naval aircraft can operate from.

Certain forces are trying to inveigle us into being nothing more than cannon fodder against China as we once were in WW1 and WW2 against Germany,were millions of Indian soldiers fought the white man's war.The shameful servile attitude of some Indians seems to be alive and kicking going by the desperate indecent haste and ambitions to join the Quad! By this yardstick India can only defend itself unless it is part of a US led posse with interoperability with the posse partners! These pro-Yanqui jingos forget how we dismembered Pak in '71 all by ourselves along with Sov. diplomatic support and military supplies.Sadly today it appears that unless we are joined at the hip with the aforementioned nations we will not be able to counter China.That's called "defeatism".

Pl read media reports today about naval interoperability with Japanese naval forces in the current naval exercises.We risk being dragged into a conflict with China by joining the US battlewagon and its fellow travellers.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Avtar Singh » 31 Oct 2017 02:27

Indian Fly Boys and Fly Navy Boys at the senior level seem to be like magpies always looking out for that shiny foreign object.

In reality all the Indian Navy needs is SSBNs and many many SSNs....
How many? more than there are sharks in the Indian Ocean, enough to cover to 150E should do it.

This would ensure that the Indian Ocean is an Indian lake,
every surface vessel on the Indian Ocean should know that an Indian SSN is not very far away.
Dont know if it is technically possible but the SSNs should have a signature matching the SSBNs.

This so called string of pearls nonsense can only function with surface ships.

No need for wasting money on foreign shiny objects; EMALS no need to waste money on foreign bases.
Just flood that ocean.

These so called super powers; chin and khan need to have SSNs to cover pacific, atlantic and Indian lake.
India just needs to cover Indian Ocean. It has to be the most cost effective way to make these super powers
think twice when they are in the Indian Ocean.

No need to have too many India ships they can sink, especially expensive aircraft carriers,
just make sure you can sink any pakchin and khan ships in the Indian lake.

Correct me if I am wrong, India can make SSNs in house... Make in India

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sahay » 31 Oct 2017 08:11

Aditya G wrote:Enjoy folks;

Image

Image

Image


No cause for celebration. Oto Melara was chosen for 127mm guns, but no contract has been signed yet. The last news report on 30mm Naval Surface Guns was in mid-2016 and since then there is no report on even a vendor being chosen, let alone contract signature.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 31 Oct 2017 11:20

Do we not have several 30MM auto mounts developed from the BMP ICV which are aboard our FACs and GC vessels? What is the need therefore for yet another 30MM gun? As far as point defence is concerned,the 30MM gatlings aboard almost every major warship seem to be excellent weapons of the last defence.In fact in the future we should replace or install on new vessels the combined LW BPDMS gun/missile mounts that are replacing /successors to Kashtan.This would give an extra layer of anti-air/missile protection,saving space,weight and cost too.

Yes,the emphasis on subs is what is reqd. right now,with our sub numbers and capability plummeting. Ideally, a balanced naval inventory is reqd. keeping in mind our unique geographical assets like the sub-continent's landmass jutting into the heart of the IO plus our island territories on both seaboards,straddling the SLOCS from the Gulf/Suez Canal and Malacca Straits. The lack of a large CV can be offset to a large extent by adequate numbers of supersonic maritime strike aircraft like Backfires,carrying a variety of LRCMs some super/hypersonic too,SS MKIs with tanker support carrying BMos,,as well as a large inventory of subs,both nuclear and conventional .The conventional AIP subs more finely tuned for the HUK role. AS mentioned earlier,a sum of $10B for a carrier and a few escorts works out to the alt. equivalent of at least 20+ late model Kilo-2 or Amur subs,which can both be armed with BMos and Kalibir class LRCMs! Theoretically,an Indian Kilo/Amur could from the A&N theatre,sink a Chin carrier in the ICS with a salvo of Kalibir class missiles!

As often mentioned,our two exg. carriers plus the 3-4 amphibs would suffice for the IOR and even some ops outside,more so if the amphibs were designed to also operate fxd/STOVL winged aircraft via a ski-jump/angled deck configuration. At least a ski-jump added so that when STOVL aircraft become available we could operate them from the vessels. The most grave situations that one could imagine calling for the IN to send an exped./amphib force is apart from any threat to the A&N/lakshadweep islands,support to Mauritius,Seychelles,the Maldives and Sri Lanka. Does anyone envisage an IN assault from the sea at Gwadar and the Makran coast ,supported by carrier aircraft and LR air support of the IAF? Or Djibouti for that matter? Even the US in its campaign against Libya used dozens of LRCM Tomahawks,launched from its SSGN N-subs,which can unleash over 150+ missiles.Even more unlikely,though not outside the realm of ultra-optimism,attacks could be carried out against the Chins on their east coast ports and Hainan island.But even these would be better suited to sub attacks rather than from an IN CBG which could be detected and attacked in large force by Chin naval/air assets.

It is a matter of major concern that China also has the largest no. of mil sats of any country in the world,reported as being almost "80"! The Chin cyberarmy is supposed to be over a million strong,why China is drastically pruning its standing army to less than a million troops, using the money saved in modernisation and expansion of its weaponry.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 31 Oct 2017 14:20

Russian friend, a modern sub fleet is even more expensive than carriers. And if we don’t go to war, subs are practically useless during peacetime since they cannot create a visible presence that leads to de facto jurisdiction in an area of water that surface ships can.

Look at the what the Royal Navy is paying for their Dreadnought and Astute SSBN/SSN classes. It’s bigger than four times what they are paying for their two carrriers and associated airwings.
http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/briefing_papers_and_reports/capabilities_review_squaring_naval_ambitions_priorities_res

Image

If we can’t get a nice war going with Cheen after all the fiery rhetoric at Doklam then I don’t see one happening in our lifetime.

Cheen’s power is trade and industry. Its strategy is to pump the IOR so full of ships like it did in the SCS that it becomes a de facto regional power. Its strategy of infrastructure building and investment in OBOR pretty much precludes war. You don’t light fires under your own property.

So do we have a plan if we are never afforded the opportunity to go war with Cheen? Having subs that no one could see while the Cheen navy criss-cross the IOR with carriers escorted by 13K-ton destroyers, what do you think would be the impact on Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States and the other states in our littoral rim?
Last edited by chola on 31 Oct 2017 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 31 Oct 2017 14:30

chola wrote:Russian friend, a modern sub fleet is even more expensive than carriers. And if we don’t go to war, subs are practically useless during peacetime since they cannot create a visible presence that leads to de facto jurisdiction in an area of water that surface ships can.

Look at the what the Royal Navy is paying for their Dreadnought and Astute SSBN/SSN classes. It’s bigger than four times what they are paying for their two carrriers and associated airwings.
http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/briefing_papers_and_reports/capabilities_review_squaring_naval_ambitions_priorities_res

Image

If we can’t get a nice war going with Cheen after all the fiery rhetoric at Doklam then I don’t see one happening in our lifetime.

Cheen’s power is trade and industry. Its strategy is to pump the IOR so full of ships like it did in the SCS that it becomes a de facto regional power. It’s strategy of infrastructure building and investment in OBOR pretty much precludes war.

Do we have a plan if we are never afforded the opportunity to go war with Cheen? Having subs that no one could see while the Cheen navy criss-cross the IOR with carriers escorted by 13K-ton destroyers, what do you think would be the impact on Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States and the other states in our littoral rim?


that includes the development costs for the new class ...India can do it if we dont spend too much on foreign stuff .. i dont want to think about the chunk the Rafale deal alone took out of the capex budget :|

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 31 Oct 2017 14:44

^^^The chart says procurement expense onlee, saar.

Also we do not have a local SSK industry to lower cost of sub fleet so firangi bought systems are near billion per boat and counting in our (torpedo-less) Scorpene venture. This for a cute little 1.8K-ton boat. Imagine costs for a proper 4K-ton class like japani Soryu or chini Yuan.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 31 Oct 2017 15:29

Pl obtain latest figs. for cost of the QE carriers,plus their air wing and the accompanying escorts! It is not boasting about one's presence,one does not need a huge carrier to do so and in any case we have two that will be with us post 2020 to show the flag.It is the capability to sink the enemy that counts and for that the sub is the ultimate "stealth" weapon. In fact China sending its subs to Malaysia,Colombo,Karachi and Gwadar,have made about an equal concern in littoral nations of the IOR. That's why China is upping its sub fleet to almost 80 by 2020. Russia which also has a huge land mass from where it can despatch LR aircraft as it is regularly doing so in both the Atlantic and Pacific fronts,the Japanese just escorted an Ru ear bomber as per intl. agreements ,testing its defences,preferred subs to carriers.It is steadily building up its N-sub fleet to their highest levels with the 4th Borei SSBN,an advanced version of the class with 7 planned,plus the planned improved Yasens and has started on the to new classes of SSBN/SSNs built from a similar basic platform to cut costs ,have greater commonality of eqpt. and built faster. Post 2020 we sholdl have two conventional lines running.One to replace eventually all upgraded Kilos which can't go beyond another decade max.,by another new Ru line,as well as another line of the best western sub to replace the U-209s and leapfrog the Scorpenes ,relatively middle-aged in design plus whose data has been extensively leaked and therefore compromised.

Our rate of shipbuilding,both surface combatants and subs has much to be desired. Stats given many a time. Today Russia and China are in competition for sub building speed.Kilos one every 2 years and the Chinese with their Yuans,etc. around one every 2.5 yrs. China has achieved this with multiple yards building the same type.We're attempting to do so with our surface vessels,P-17As,etc., Of the pvt. yards,L&T are the most efficient ans d should be rewarded.The others given a chance as they need to be hand-held for some time until they get into gear.Split orders a good insurance policy. Our carrier taking around a decade to complete is far too long.The next larger carrier-if it is approved will take at least that time,perhaps more unless the yard selected has modernised with pre-fitted modules being built at speed not necessarily at the same yard for assembly at the chosen yard. With such a ;long timeframe for completion and commissioning,it may even be foolhardy to select an aircraft of the 4th-gen right now,when one is sure that by 2030,most frontline aircraft flying will have stealth as commonplace.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 31 Oct 2017 15:48

It is not boasting about one's presence,one does not need a huge carrier to do so and in any case we have two that will be with us post 2020 to show the flag.It is the capability to sink the enemy that counts and for that the sub is the ultimate "stealth" weapon.


Filipov, are you a TFTA tribal from a particular warrior race onlee? Or maybe a real TFTA Russ?

Any rational Indian should at least consider the fact that our military operates 99.8% of the time in peace. That Cheen is SYRE and had chickened out of fighting at Doka La and had chickened out of fighting for five decades before that. That they are embarking on a trillion dollar OBOR venture and the last thing they would want now is war to engulf their investment in flames.

One CATOBAR will not break the bank anyone than a sub fleet big enough to scare Cheen. And if no war comes, the carrier will carry our influence far more across the region than the unseen subs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 31 Oct 2017 18:16

Philip wrote:Do we not have several 30MM auto mounts developed from the BMP ICV which are aboard our FACs and GC vessels? What is the need therefore for yet another 30MM gun? As far as point defence is concerned,the 30MM gatlings aboard almost every major warship seem to be excellent weapons of the last defence.In fact in the future we should replace or install on new vessels the combined LW BPDMS gun/missile mounts that are replacing /successors to Kashtan.This would give an extra layer of anti-air/missile protection,saving space,weight and cost too.

[/b]


Not sure .... Is CRN-91 remote operated or is there a gunner sitting inside the turret like a BMP?

The 30 mm cannon and 30 mm Gatling have their own applications due to ammo rate.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Ankit Desai » 31 Oct 2017 19:17

Govt clears mega project to acquire 111 helicopters for navy

They said 16 helicopters will be procured at a fly away condition while 95 will be manufactured in India.

The acquisition of the helicopters will be made under the strategic partnership model.

The cost of the project will be Rs 21,738 crore, the sources said.


-Ankit

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 31 Oct 2017 20:07

Philip wrote:Do we not have several 30MM auto mounts developed from the BMP ICV which are aboard our FACs and GC vessels? What is the need therefore for yet another 30MM gun? As far as point defence is concerned,the 30MM gatlings aboard almost every major warship seem to be excellent weapons of the last defence.In fact in the future we should replace or install on new vessels the combined LW BPDMS gun/missile mounts that are replacing /successors to Kashtan.This would give an extra layer of anti-air/missile protection,saving space,weight and cost too.

Yes,the emphasis on subs is what is reqd. right now,with our sub numbers and capability plummeting. Ideally, a balanced naval inventory is reqd. keeping in mind our unique geographical assets like the sub-continent's landmass jutting into the heart of the IO plus our island territories on both seaboards,straddling the SLOCS from the Gulf/Suez Canal and Malacca Straits. The lack of a large CV can be offset to a large extent by adequate numbers of supersonic maritime strike aircraft like Backfires,carrying a variety of LRCMs some super/hypersonic too,SS MKIs with tanker support carrying BMos,,as well as a large inventory of subs,both nuclear and conventional .The conventional AIP subs more finely tuned for the HUK role. AS mentioned earlier,a sum of $10B for a carrier and a few escorts works out to the alt. equivalent of at least 20+ late model Kilo-2 or Amur subs,which can both be armed with BMos and Kalibir class LRCMs! Theoretically,an Indian Kilo/Amur could from the A&N theatre,sink a Chin carrier in the ICS with a salvo of Kalibir class missiles!

As often mentioned,our two exg. carriers plus the 3-4 amphibs would suffice for the IOR and even some ops outside,more so if the amphibs were designed to also operate fxd/STOVL winged aircraft via a ski-jump/angled deck configuration. At least a ski-jump added so that when STOVL aircraft become available we could operate them from the vessels. The most grave situations that one could imagine calling for the IN to send an exped./amphib force is apart from any threat to the A&N/lakshadweep islands,support to Mauritius,Seychelles,the Maldives and Sri Lanka. Does anyone envisage an IN assault from the sea at Gwadar and the Makran coast ,supported by carrier aircraft and LR air support of the IAF? Or Djibouti for that matter? Even the US in its campaign against Libya used dozens of LRCM Tomahawks,launched from its SSGN N-subs,which can unleash over 150+ missiles.Even more unlikely,though not outside the realm of ultra-optimism,attacks could be carried out against the Chins on their east coast ports and Hainan island.But even these would be better suited to sub attacks rather than from an IN CBG which could be detected and attacked in large force by Chin naval/air assets.

[b]It is a matter of major concern that China also has the largest no. of mil sats of any country in the world,reported as being almost "80"!
The Chin cyberarmy is supposed to be over a million strong,why China is drastically pruning its standing army to less than a million troops, using the money saved in modernisation and expansion of its weaponry.[/b]


India s constellation of dual purpose satellites number more than 50 and growing

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 01 Nov 2017 01:14

Ankit Desai wrote:Govt clears mega project to acquire 111 helicopters for navy

They said 16 helicopters will be procured at a fly away condition while 95 will be manufactured in India.

The acquisition of the helicopters will be made under the strategic partnership model.

The cost of the project will be Rs 21,738 crore, the sources said.


-Ankit


So we’ll be pouring $4B into yet another phoren screwdriver giri instead of developing a variant of the Dhruv family that is ours and successful. Perhaps there is no shipborne model yet but that’s why money needs to spent in country!

Why do we insist on giving other nations’ MICs our money? Even in this day and age of MII?! Why? Fvcking why? Someone tell me why not a Dhruv variant?!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 01 Nov 2017 01:27

Doubly irritating in the article is they used a picture of Dhruvs from the Sarang Team when the article is actually about the fvcking betrayal of our most successful indigenious product yet.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Avtar Singh » 01 Nov 2017 02:59

I dont know the ins and out of what India can afford and cannot afford.
My brain is small and I have to go by the kiss principle.

I am presuming purchasing an emals system will send money to america.
Whether India can display its plumeage is irrelevant compared to sending money abroad.

Just picking numbers out of the air and keeping things simple it is better to spend $10bn on India
manufacture then spend $2bn on american industry. In my book anyway..
Since India can now make SSBNS, well I assume it can, then just build the very expensive Indian boats..
but keep the money in India.

Only build what you can Make in India and if it is not perfect/ideal so be it, make the best out of a bad situation
but dont give your money to foreigners.

Surely Indians have sent enough of their treasure to foreign shores over the last 1300 years..
make do with what you have within and stop buying from outside your country.

All the british boats are made in a specific part of the country.. Even the CND loving labour party
is loathe to give up manufacturing these boats because of what it will do to said area.....
The british are spending these huge amounts on themsleves and their workers.

Something India should learn to do. Anyway enough on this topic from me.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2017 09:18

India-US joint working group on aircraft carrier tech meets, studies Mig 29K flight ops
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 369058.cms

As India firmed up the technology for its first indigenous aircraft carrier, the India - US Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation (JWGACTC) arrived at INS Hansa to get a better understanding of the Indian Navy's fighter aircraft operations. The visit to Goa, is the fourth meeting of the joint working group since the two countries began to hold candid discussions on aircraft carrier technology in 2015. A delegation comprising of seven Indian officials and fourteen US delegates visited in Goa on Oct 29.

"The joint group visited the premier Naval Air Station Hansa and witnessed the flying facilities including a demonstration of the Mig 29K fighter aircraft operations. The delegation was also taken for a on board India's sole aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on Tuesday," a naval source said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 01 Nov 2017 09:26

I hope the Indian side learns from the US on what not to do.
How Not to Build a Ship: The USS Ford

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2017 09:26

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/925346778920116224 --> Livefist can confirm that the 9 ATAS for which AoN was cleared today are for the Kolkata-class destroyers and Shivalik & Teg class frigates.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/925330566068690946 --> FLASH: Indian MoD approves procurement of 9 active towed array sonars for frontline ships, including P28 corvettes. Cost: ₹450 crore.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/925348121093095426 --> FYI, the Indian Navy refers to Teg/Tarkash/Trikand as the Teg Cass owing to modifications/differences from the Talwar Class.

ATAS (Advanced Towed Array Sonars).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 01 Nov 2017 09:29

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/925329096036433920 --> FLASH: Indian MoD approves Indian Navy's Make In India naval utility helicopter (NUH) program for 111 airframes — 16 flyaway & 95 built here.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/925329446822756357 --> Total cost of NUH: ₹21,738 crore.

With Chinese Lurkers, Indian Navy Wants ALL Helos To Hunt Subs
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/08 ... s-too.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 01 Nov 2017 10:17

beyond the headlines:
good thing: NUH project of 111 helicopters has been approved.

yet-to-be-done: foreign maker not identified, helicopter not identified, Indian maker not identified. SP model to be done first time, place - land, factory yet to be decided, weapons/sensor package - unknown.
IMO, this still has a long way to go.

how come price is decided upto the last crore?

the good thing this is a SP (Strategic Partner) model. So, private Indian manufacturer will be involved. Seems like we are building a competition to HAL.
Do we need the stalled Russian Ka-226 200 heli deal now? the same order can go to this new SP.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 01 Nov 2017 12:40

What eventually matters is not peacetime showmanship but wartime capability.We already have 2 carriers to show the flag 4 amphib to come plus dozens of other surface vessels.Small flotilla of DDG/FFG/PGGs have regularly paid visits from the Far East to the Gulf and Europe.I was at Portsmouth when INS Delhi was our participant at the 200th anniv. of the Battle of Trafalgar.Britain put on a fab. show.So we have enough assets that can "show off the flag very well.Another cat carrier won't make a great diff,but imagine a visit by an Indian nuclear sub...!

The issue at the moment is affordability.If our declining defence budget GDP-wise strangely under "patriotic" NDA rule cannot afford a large EMALS CV ,plus the accompanying escorts,etc.,all costing anywhdte from $15B upwards, we must look to alternatives. For $10+B we should be able to build our entire fleet of SSNs,at least 5 of the 6 subs;plus afford another 12 conv. AIP subs AND
acquire dev.Backfires for the LR supersonic maritime strike role! "INS India, INS A&N,INS Lakshdweep" are our massive unsinkable carriers ,from where we can base a variety of aircraft as well as maritime anti-ship and maritime/carrier-killer BM missiles if need be, to deal with any enemy attempted ingress into the IOR.Leveraging our amphib design to include at least a ski-jump would give them a future STOVL stealth fighter capability like the JSF or any Ru Yak bird that may arrive.
Our scarce naval budget should be judiciously spent,not squandered upon grandiose aspirations.

Naval helos: Look the ALH was never designed with naval reqs. in mind.It was meant for the IAF and IA. HAL wanted the IN to absurdly "cut holes" in the hangar as the rotors couldn't fold! I fail to understand why our helo division has neglected taking the IN aboard when commencing projects since the IN is the most responsive service when it comes to Indianisation. The med. helo has not taken them aboard and as a result they aren't interested.In any case a naval variant will take aeons to develop.The acute need is now as our warships are in the "ICU" without their ASW birds,almost sitting ducks for enemy subs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 01 Nov 2017 14:52

ShauryaT wrote:I hope the Indian side learns from the US on what not to do.
How Not to Build a Ship: The USS Ford


Yeah, the great people at POGO can offer so many lessons to others.. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vina » 01 Nov 2017 15:44

Philip wrote:Naval helos: Look the ALH was never designed with naval reqs. in mind.It was meant for the IAF and IA. HAL wanted the IN to absurdly "cut holes" in the hangar as the rotors couldn't fold! I fail to understand why our helo division has neglected taking the IN aboard when commencing projects since the IN is the most responsive service when it comes to Indianisation.


It is precisely this kind of misinformation masquerading as "truth" that is highly problematic.

1) The ALH had a Naval Variant right from the beginning. iirc, the wheeled variant was meant for the Navy and indeed they were among the first prototypes of the ALH .

2) Just googling around will bring up hundreds of images of the ALH with the blades folded

The Navy wants a large helicopter (given the range ,loiter and cargo capacity for torpedoes and anti sub operations). This is not something a 5 ton helicopter can do. It needs a 10 ton helicopter.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 01 Nov 2017 16:02

First person acts. from the IN some years ago.At that time there were no folding blades.I know my facts based upon accurate info.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 01 Nov 2017 16:10

vina wrote:
Philip wrote:...
It is precisely this kind of misinformation masquerading as "truth" that is highly problematic.

1) The ALH had a Naval Variant right from the beginning. iirc, the wheeled variant was meant for the Navy and indeed they were among the first prototypes of the ALH .

2) Just googling around will bring up hundreds of images of the ALH with the blades folded

The Navy wants a large helicopter (given the range ,loiter and cargo capacity for torpedoes and anti sub operations). This is not something a 5 ton helicopter can do. It needs a 10 ton helicopter.


Dear Vina Sir/ Madam,

If you are referring to the NUH project, it is not a 10 ton helicopter requirement. For your information, among the contenders:
Bell 429: MTOW: 3,175 kg
AS565 Panther: MTOW: 4,300 kg
S 76:MTOW: 5,307 kg
HAL Dhruv: 5,500 kg
Ka 226: 3800 kg
(please refer wiki for this data. Individual brochure could provide different figures)

As far as I know, the Ka 226 is out because there were issues with size on deck. The rest remain in contention. Though, there are those who would have me believe that AS565 Panther stands the best chance but I do not agree. In case it wins, the plant comes up at Dhulera, Gujarat.

The Dhruv maybe an overkill here as also the the S 76 since the plan is to replace the Cheetahs and Chetaks. Again, these are my opinions only.

Regards

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 01 Nov 2017 16:24

First person accts. from the IN some years ago.At that time there were no folding blades.There was much amusement in IN quarters about the idea of "cutting holes in the hangar.

Anyway, reg. the ALH's capabilities you're quite right.It's neither "fish nor fowl" ,unable to replicate an SK or KA-28, and larger than a Chetak.Unlike the LCA where the IN was part of the plot from inception .wanting its own variant and even funded a lot of the dev.programme,in general looking at helo programmes abroad,civil/mil utility versions are the norm.Naval variants being v.specialiesd arrive much later. Their numbers too are smaller and unless like NATO nations using the same helo or major naval powers with a huge req., look to exports to make the prog. relevant.
The ALH however is fine for commn./ utility purposes.The IN has bought some.

It's going to be interesting seeing the shortlist for the naval LUH.If It's going to carry 2 LWTs and perhaps a small dunking sonar.I think AW have a
small naval helo but are "haram" tx to the VVIP helo scandal.

deejay
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 01 Nov 2017 16:34

Philip wrote:First person accts. from the IN some years ago.At that time there were no folding blades.There was much amusement in IN quarters about the idea of "cutting holes in the hangar.

Anyway, reg. the ALH's capabilities you're quite right.It's neither "fish nor fowl" ,unable to replicate an SK or KA-28, and larger than a Chetak.Unlike the LCA where the IN was part of the plot from inception .wanting its own variant and even funded a lot of the dev.programme,in general looking at helo programmes abroad,civil/mil utility versions are the norm.Naval variants being v.specialiesd arrive much later. Their numbers too are smaller and unless like NATO nations using the same helo or major naval powers with a huge req., look to exports to make the prog. relevant.
The ALH however is fine for commn./ utility purposes.The IN has bought some.

It's going to be interesting seeing the shortlist for the naval LUH.If It's going to carry 2 LWTs and perhaps a small dunking sonar.I think AW have a
small naval helo but are "haram" tx to the VVIP helo scandal.


Dear Philip Sir,

I was amused at your neither "fish nor fowl" comment but let me tell you the ALH is a very strong contender for this programme. It may not have been reported so by Livefist but that is how it is.

Infact, if my opinion would count, ALH is a no brainer for this contract.

Regards

Ps: AW are now known as Leonardo

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Zynda » 01 Nov 2017 16:59

^^Deejay saar, the info back then about why IN was not interested in NALH was its lack of auto blade folding mechanism (NALH had a manual one). Do you happen to know if HAL has solved the issue by incorporating an auto mechanism at the moment?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 01 Nov 2017 17:08

The cutting holes in IN vessels to accomodate Dhruv derivatives is so fvcking absurd that it deserves no mention.

Ten ton helos are way too big. Those reserved for carriers, LHDs and the larger DDGs. Globally the archtypical general purpose naval helo is a Panther-sized craft (Dauphin, Z-9, etc.) Small enough for corvettes and coast guard cutters big enough size to be useful on carriers too.

The ALH/Dhruv is a meter longer with extra power. They would be perfect if we need more capacity but could still operate from most of our ships.

There is no reason I can think of as to why we cannot use the Dhruv for the IN.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 01 Nov 2017 17:41

Zynda wrote:^^Deejay saar, the info back then about why IN was not interested in NALH was its lack of auto blade folding mechanism (NALH had a manual one). Do you happen to know if HAL has solved the issue by incorporating an auto mechanism at the moment?


If they have not then they will. They made a helicopter for god sake! They surely can fold a few blades. Order milega toh blade bhi fold ho jayega.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Nov 2017 18:00

deejay wrote:Order milega toh blade bhi fold ho jayega.

But isn't it the other way around for indian procurement, Deejay saab?? Jab fold hoga tab order ke barein me socha jayega!! No disrespect to the forces intended. Itz just the way the system is loaded.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 01 Nov 2017 18:44

deejay wrote:
Philip wrote:First person accts. from the IN some years ago.At that time there were no folding blades.There was much amusement in IN quarters about the idea of "cutting holes in the hangar.

Anyway, reg. the ALH's capabilities you're quite right.It's neither "fish nor fowl" ,unable to replicate an SK or KA-28, and larger than a Chetak.Unlike the LCA where the IN was part of the plot from inception .wanting its own variant and even funded a lot of the dev.programme,in general looking at helo programmes abroad,civil/mil utility versions are the norm.Naval variants being v.specialiesd arrive much later. Their numbers too are smaller and unless like NATO nations using the same helo or major naval powers with a huge req., look to exports to make the prog. relevant.
The ALH however is fine for commn./ utility purposes.The IN has bought some.

It's going to be interesting seeing the shortlist for the naval LUH.If It's going to carry 2 LWTs and perhaps a small dunking sonar.I think AW have a
small naval helo but are "haram" tx to the VVIP helo scandal.


Dear Philip Sir,

I was amused at your neither "fish nor fowl" comment but let me tell you the ALH is a very strong contender for this programme. It may not have been reported so by Livefist but that is how it is.

Infact, if my opinion would count, ALH is a no brainer for this contract.

Regards

Ps: AW are now known as Leonardo


The IN was part of the funding for the initial ALH program even as no one else came forward at the time. The ICG turned out to be the main beneficiary of the IN funding as they needed and were prepared to accept only a very basic platform

The hole cutting idea was actually seriously pitched to the IN, which was dutifully expected to adopt the idea. The manufacturer obviously overlooked and glossed over the hole in their own heads.

Apart from all this, there were many other issues, some of which have been documented in the forum, which made the IN unhappy. IIRC, the initial IN order was close to or exceeding 200 numbers which was gradually whittled down when the company did/could not address legitimate operator concerns and safety issues.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 01 Nov 2017 18:57

Why is blade folding so difficult to execute for ALH. I don't understand.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 01 Nov 2017 19:07

Bala Vignesh wrote:
deejay wrote:Order milega toh blade bhi fold ho jayega.

But isn't it the other way around for indian procurement, Deejay saab?? Jab fold hoga tab order ke barein me socha jayega!! No disrespect to the forces intended. Itz just the way the system is loaded.


The ALH has been derived from the MBB BK-117. MBB had their design offices in the helicopter div for quite a few years before the HAL "took over" the design and sent the original company packing.

A lot of design issues that MBB was working on at the time continued unresolved under HAL management and later came back to bite them in the ass.

Even for currently operating helos, if blades don't fold, the helo does not embark the ship per IN operating policy. Non folders may land on deck and stay for short periods counted in hours but will not be retained beyond that. The chances of damage are too high to risk.

In the IN ALH project risk, folding blades should have been addressed first and foremost. It was a definite deal breaker.

No fold, no order is very right.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rupak » 01 Nov 2017 19:37

The issue is not fold vs. not fold. It was auto fold vs. manual fold. Auto fold = weight penalty due to additional mechanism required.

Here is a Naval SAR Dhruv embarked in Viraat's hanger.....with blades folded.

http://i.imgur.com/jMWR2HC.jpg

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Zynda » 01 Nov 2017 19:40

Apparently the reasoning for an auto mechanism required was that in high sea states, having an auto fold capability would be of additional benefit vs manual one. Perhaps from a safety POV.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 01 Nov 2017 19:58

chetak wrote:
deejay wrote:
Dear Philip Sir,

I was amused at your neither "fish nor fowl" comment but let me tell you the ALH is a very strong contender for this programme. It may not have been reported so by Livefist but that is how it is.

Infact, if my opinion would count, ALH is a no brainer for this contract.

Regards

Ps: AW are now known as Leonardo


The IN was part of the funding for the initial ALH program even as no one else came forward at the time. The ICG turned out to be the main beneficiary of the IN funding as they needed and were prepared to accept only a very basic platform

The hole cutting idea was actually seriously pitched to the IN, which was dutifully expected to adopt the idea. The manufacturer obviously overlooked and glossed over the hole in their own heads.

Apart from all this, there were many other issues, some of which have been documented in the forum, which made the IN unhappy. IIRC, the initial IN order was close to or exceeding 200 numbers which was gradually whittled down when the company did/could not address legitimate operator concerns and safety issues.


Thank you, Chetak ji. For explaining the history and reason behind the decision by the Navy. It helped to manage a bit of my anger over this new phoren contract. The cutting holes business is so outrageous that I thought it was slander. But if HAL had really suggested such a thing then it must be so out of touch with reality that I would not blame the Navy for giving up on it.

It still feels very bad that we (HAL, India) could have dropped the ball on this. This isn’t a sudden requirement. We’ve known for years that the Sea Kings, Chetaks were near retirement. This hemorrhaging of billions that could boost our own capacity simply can’t go on.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 01 Nov 2017 20:17

There is an old Shooklaw article on Dhruv problems for Navy: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2008/09/indian-navys-dhruv-falling-between-two.html
Lot of issues above (folding blade etc) discussed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 01 Nov 2017 20:59

Given the ALH's larger tonnage and MTOW compared to the RFI for the Naval NRMH, the ALH will provide better specs for time on air and ability to carry all types of gizmos for ASW roles compared to the LUH class Helos? Get that auto fold issue solved along with some other minor things and we should be home. The only downside I see with the ALH is its higher operations cost compared to the LUH class but then if the IN really needs that time on air and MTOW then they will not get it with the LUH class. These following two requirements seem to contradict each other.

The first 15 helicopters will be in basic configuration with the ability to undertake SAR, casualty evacuation (CASEVAC), anti-piracy and anti-terrorism missions in addition to passenger and cargo transport.


The remaining 96 helicopters will be delivered "fully Configured", and capable of performing the anti-submarine warfare mission. They also need a radar warning receiver (RWR), missile approach warning system (MAWS) and countermeasure dispensing system (CMDS).

The twin-engine utility helicopters are expected to be in the five-tonne weight category. The RFI also asks for the ability to integrate torpedoes, sensors and avionics of Indian, western, and Russian origin.


One would think this is tailor made for the ALH, but based on the vendors chosen, god only knows what is going on.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 01 Nov 2017 21:45

Deejay,

Will the NLUH be too small for the requirements? ALH has been optimized for Indian conditions and I am very sure the lessons will be carried over to NLUH. I think the timelines of NLUH being given operation clearance and a SP starting production will be quite similar.


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