Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chola
BRFite
Posts: 1452
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 01 Apr 2017 18:02

Viv S wrote:
chola wrote:Look at the PRC's flattop program. It took a rotting hulk from Ukraine, converted it all on its own to build industrial capacity and is now ready to launch a second 65,000-ton STOBAR next month, has commenced the building of a 40,000-ton LHD and, worse of all, has already been building their CATOBAR carrier in Shanghai since 2015.

All this with a publicly stated grand vision of six or more CVs and at least four LHDs.

Precisely. I'd say we have less than a decade before the first PLAN CBG sortie west of the Malacca possibly including a port call at Gwadar or Karachi (with the next at Djibouti).

And while IN SSNs/SSKs will be deployed to counter it, they're better suited for ambushes at choke-points. The IN surface fleet will still need air cover, especially if the PLAN battlegroup is already deployed to the IOR when the balloon goes up.

With the IAC-2 still a paper project, we need a follow-on to the Vikrant ordered right away.



Obviously, a stable full of SSN/SSK's would be the best counter.

I don't fear the tactical power of a chini CBG as much as the symbolic one. Any PLAN carrier in the IOR would be in transit as the IN AND the USN's 7th Fleet will be on its tail. It won't survive 24-hours if real war were to break out.

But docking of such a CBG in Gwadar, Djibouti and elsewhere around around the IOR in peacetime will convey a political message that only a carrier can give.

The fixed-wing carrier was our status symbol. Of all the nations in Asia, we were the only one who operated this icon if seapower. Not China, not Japan (okay Thailand had one but it was used more as a royal yacht.)

Were the PLAN to send a CATOBAR carrier to the Indian Ocean while we had none then the symbolism of us being eclipsed in our own region will be there even though the reality is that this chini carrier will not survive for long in war.

That said, I don't think we'll see a PLAN CBG in the IOR in our lifetime. They have too much pressing concerns with the USN on their doorstep. But the symbolism of the PRC overtaking us in the one field where we used to dominate will be there where ever a PLAN CATOBAR is deployed. And we have none.
Last edited by chola on 01 Apr 2017 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2017 18:04

choukai with hyuga. rimpac. beautiful ship and way more powerful than ocean, invincible, viraat ...

for some unknown reason the japani aegis ships have the main deck one level lower than the american ones, which is surprising considering they skulk in hostile north pacific waters most of the time ...


Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2017 18:12

rather than a vishal, we should develop a few coastal naval aviation bases properly incl one in andamans and work with russia to buy into the renewed production of the TU160M2. with its formidable range, speed and payload it will cover the entire IOR easily from new guinea to south africa.

to beat the gorilla dont buy another gorilla, invest in a gorilla trap

great thing is will be totally dual role and permit B52 type work (in sanitized area) and ALCM/PGM hive launcher (in contested places) over land. sp next time the pakis try something like kargil, hit them with 20 x 2000lb bombs one fine morning

in short do not get into a bankrupting 'strike carrier race' with cheen which our budget cannot support - use the russian plan of using a mix of SSNs , SSGN (hypersonic brahmos), ASW carriers and long range naval aviation to control our seas. add in ASBM too which were already talked about.

let cheen bankrupt themselves in the strike carrier race with khan who already has some 13 :lol:

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3453
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 01 Apr 2017 18:23

Singha wrote:in short do not get into a bankrupting 'strike carrier race' with cheen which our budget cannot support - use the russian plan of using a mix of SSNs , SSGN (hypersonic brahmos), ASW carriers and long range naval aviation to control our seas. add in ASBM too which were already talked about.


Is it not what the Soviets did during cold war. IIRC, Oscar class was built specifically to counter the CBGs.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2017 18:31

exactly. its cheaper and it works.

apart from finances, the cheen ship building capacity is far higher than ours - let us not bury heads in sand...they are churning out some 4 DDG/FFG sized ships a year apart from FACs, subs, supply ships and many more. they are also a huge commercial shipbuilder.

there is no way to compete on the number and size of ships.

its time to find workarounds and not match a apple with apple.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1452
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 01 Apr 2017 18:34

Singha wrote:rather than a vishal, we should develop a few coastal naval aviation bases properly incl one in andamans and work with russia to buy into the renewed production of the TU160M2. with its formidable range, speed and payload it will cover the entire IOR easily from new guinea to south africa.

to beat the gorilla dont buy another gorilla, invest in a gorilla trap

great thing is will be totally dual role and permit B52 type work (in sanitized area) and ALCM/PGM hive launcher (in contested places) over land.

in short do not get into a bankrupting 'strike carrier race' with cheen which our budget cannot support - use the russian plan of using a mix of SSNs , SSGN (hypersonic brahmos), ASW carriers and long range naval aviation to control our seas. add in ASBM too which were already talked about.

let cheen bankrupt themselves in the strike carrier race with khan who already has some 13 :lol:


Singhaji, you are an intelligent and rational person.

I am too -- most of the time.

The Carrier is one area where I am not. Since the Vikrant of my youth, this was the symbol of our aspirations as a great power.

Yes, you are absolutely right, we are not in the position to race carriers with khan as cheen is doing.

But what about 20 or 30 years into future when our economy will be on par with cheen and khan? Should we let our carrier capabilities remain still with STOBAR and VTOL until then?

There are times when cost-effectiveness can be ignore to grow a nation's vision of itself. That is where the carrier comes in. We are not a midling power like England or Japan or even Russia. We see ourselves as equals of cheen and khan no? Maybe not now but definitely in the future.

A compromise between reality and aspirition should see us plan at least one CATOBAR to hold us over to the day our economy meets our aspirations. And then we can compete in earnest.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7392
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 01 Apr 2017 18:36

Hmm interesting thought process. The one thing that I don't appreciate about the Navy is that the order for fleet units is very small. I think that the ship runs need to increase by at least 10 times. As I. 40 instead of just 4 for P 15 B. Have 2 such ships enter service every year. Order a second Vikrant now and have her enter service by 2025. While the vishal gets ordered by 2025. So the fleet will have 3 light carrier's and build 6 vishal class ships with one entering service every 5 years from 2030. Let her be 100000 ton unit. No use of 65 k ton designs.

I n short I am thinking of a 200 + capital ships in our little pond. Let the khans and the panda duke it out
In the Pacific.
By 2030, the economy will be stable enough and large enough that a fleet of this type can become affordable.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2017 18:40

unlike the soviets who were somewhat bottled in by arctic ice (melting fast now!) , the GIUK gap closely watched by sosus, orions and nimrods and the sea of japan with japani 85 x P3 orions and ssks lurking around , god has given us a clear field of access into IOR with no choke points. the IOR is also more than 2 miles deep once you clear the littorals....its infact better than pacific or atlantic for subs to disappear into.

Image

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3453
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 01 Apr 2017 18:42

The cost of one nuclear carrier along with its air wing is same as the amount of Indian defense budget allocated to buy equipment for an entire year. What we need in present scenario is SSNs. IMO, Cheen will worry more about 4 5 Indian SSNs than a nuke carrier in the IOR.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2017 18:45

to deliver even 2 DDG sized ships every year, there have to be around 8 ships in various stages of construction to keep the staged pipeline full from keel laying to fitting out.

that is exactly how russia expects to complete her fleet of yasen and borei subs by 2020 and start on mk2 of both lines in 2018...they have many in construction at sevmash.

we simply do not have even the drydocks to be doing this - without the built up infra and the trained manpower its not possible even if money were made available. 100s of downstream units from steel maker to prop maker have to be given money and supply chain made fat......in turn they have to recruit and train people and build scale...its same issue as 36 Tejas every year but on a bigger scale.

our naval shipyards will need to be much larger for this. if funds are given and plans made, it will take a few years for the pipeline to fill, then churn out at good throughput....and money flow has to continue to keep it full or it will tail off again.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2017 18:49

I am sure similar thoughts went in DMs mind when he doubled down on the n-subs program and deprecated the CVN. the carrier study group will die a natural death now after couple more chai and biscuit sessions. DM has far more genuine info on capabilities, timelines and funds.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3453
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 01 Apr 2017 18:53

I was watching a documentary on Type 45 on Amazon. Apparently, these ships were built in 3 different shipyards across the UK. If we can't increase the capacity of a single shipyard, we can do something like this and keep the speed up.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7392
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 01 Apr 2017 19:04

The major issue with Indian yard is not the industrial capabilities of the yards themselves. The major issues are in the fitting out period of the ship's. I mean look at it the vikrant is still getting fitted out and is nowhere near a finished ship. Same is the case with the P 15b. I recall one p16b taking 10 years at garden reach. The lead ship of P 15 class was in the water in 91 and in service in 96. Why take 6 years for her to enter service. The 15A faced a similar delay.

So get the issue of fitting out period sorted out and we can meet the needs sorted out with existing PSU yards. Start working with pipav and l&t and you will see a quantum leap in shipbuilding in india. The problem is not at the yard level.

JTull
BRFite
Posts: 1990
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 01 Apr 2017 23:04

Pratyush wrote:The major issue with Indian yard is not the industrial capabilities of the yards themselves. The major issues are in the fitting out period of the ship's. I mean look at it the vikrant is still getting fitted out and is nowhere near a finished ship. Same is the case with the P 15b. I recall one p16b taking 10 years at garden reach. The lead ship of P 15 class was in the water in 91 and in service in 96. Why take 6 years for her to enter service. The 15A faced a similar delay.

So get the issue of fitting out period sorted out and we can meet the needs sorted out with existing PSU yards. Start working with pipav and l&t and you will see a quantum leap in shipbuilding in india. The problem is not at the yard level.


It is a project management issue with critical parts being sourced from overseas. I read somewhere that Vikrant is waiting for some stuff for the flight deck from Russia. Guys who plan this dependency do the nation a great disservice. Reminds me of the Cobham saga for radome and refueling probe. A less than perfect local option should always be built in parallel and not when you get stuck.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3453
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 01 Apr 2017 23:10

With supply chain management gaining prominence, all the industries should look at hiring experienced supply chain and operations managers.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19427
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2017 23:23

I dont think IN can afford to have more than 2 CBG with its fleet and logistic , Any thing more will see it most times in yards.

IN gets the lowest of all the budget and there are so many project that are choked up due to lack of funds few I can remember off my head are the ASW choppers badly needed , MCM vessel SSN fleet , SSBN fleet many other class of ships in pipeline all these are needed to replace the Ranvijay/Ranjit class and other frigate that would be decommisioned by end of this decade.

Its alright to say we will be on par with Cheen and US 30 years from now that would certainly be the case but we cant spend the money today that we dont have to be on par 30 years from now , Even Cheen didnt build their Carrier 20 years back.

There is limited money that IN would have and they will have to spend that judiciously and get the bread and butter ships like Frigate , Destroyer , MCM , Corvette some decent fleet to defend the CBG and fund in parallel topsecret SSBN/SSN program.

There is too much on the table for IN now and they are facing the squeeze from indian yards where cost of building gets 2-3x times more costly due to time over runs then what was originally envisaged for these program

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15703
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 01 Apr 2017 23:50

INS Viraat decommissioned: India needs to defy global trends, recruit more aircraft carriers

In other words, going by the available official literature, India is going to have three operational aircraft carriers by 2030. But senior officials say privately that the ideal number should be six – five in active duty and one in reserve – to be used in rotation, given that the country has a large coastline and maritime interests that are dependent on safety and security of arguably the world’s most important shipping artery running through the Indian and Pacific Oceans

JTull
BRFite
Posts: 1990
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 02 Apr 2017 00:53

Karthik S wrote:With supply chain management gaining prominence, all the industries should look at hiring experienced supply chain and operations managers.


Supply chain manager cannot do anything when the top guy decides imported maal will come and no point in having desi alternative. Strategic choke points are being perpetuated because top guys fattened on the imported gravy train.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2680
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Apr 2017 09:43

Pratyush wrote:The one thing that I don't appreciate about the Navy is that the order for fleet units is very small. I think that the ship runs need to increase by at least 10 times.


Yes, it seems to be a wait and see approach, debug and build again... ad infinitum. I'm really surprised that more Shivaliks have not been ordered and they are fixing on the Talwars. What is with that? Any issues with the Shivaliks? This might work with the smaller assests, but CVs need a long time to build and an order for a second Vikrant Class should be given as soon as possible.

3 CBGs is enough for sea control close to and through IOR, there is nothing more we can do with these assets anyways. Not sure what, where and how much power can be projected by IN CBGs anyways, especially wrt SCS and ECS. Even USN assets will be increasingly challenged there.

Save the $$$s and headache and start power projection and sea denial activities via SSGN/SSN types first. Long ranged bombers might be of some use here as others have suggested. Perhaps even some bigger 10 ton DDG types might find use as missile carriers or mini cruisers with a solid AAW and ASW capability.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Apr 2017 10:16

Shivaliks and p28 too costly but a safed hathi emals carrier with jsfc is not

Reason for small orders is time taken to deliver. But orders should be given in bulk to fill pipelines and build infra. Chicken anda problem.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3192
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 02 Apr 2017 20:34

'Improved Talwar':

Image

negi
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 12840
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Trying to mellow down :)

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby negi » 02 Apr 2017 21:14

I strongly believe that carrier aspirations of the IN are not backed enough by cause but by things like prestige and power projection ; it is like IAF asking for a B-52 or TU-160 blackjack equivalent or the IA asking for a long range Gustav gun . Remember the olden empires of India where elephants were a means to project strength as well as platforms of choice in battlefield but they did not work against hordes of invaders who were light , fast and engaged in a shoot and scoot type battles. USN's CTF is akin to a groom with a baraat of 1000-2000 people every carrier is accompanied by vessels both above and below the surface which basically outnumber a medium sized country's navy they have assets in the space, air and sea to sanitize the space for their carriers to operate without a fear of being targeted it would be foolish and nonsensical for us to even try to copy that template . India is better of investing more in platforms like Talwar, Shivalik and I would say slightly heavier (more in Ticonderoga class league) fast cruisers which can lay to waste a much bigger area from a far greater stand off range than what Viraat or Vikrant can with their air arm . Submarine arm is where the future of navy's offensive capabilities should be focused on that's one arena where detection and tracking have not reached similar level of maturity as air space where anything having a larger RCS than a golf ball can be detected and tracked. We have been spreading our resources too wide and thin and hence while on paper we claim to be building submarine, surface vessels , carriers and what not we have not achieved 90% or higher self reliance in any of these areas .

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Apr 2017 23:19

We ahould build 3 more vikrant class and orient them to asw ops with more helis. They are very similar to izumo in size shape and speed so we already have the bird in hand...just clone it.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10461
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 02 Apr 2017 23:44

I feel that the IN should wait and build a carrier that it will truly love to operate.
A 65-85 K ton EMALS, N powered carrier. It can embark F-18/Rafale-M/AMCA-M

It is a tad unfair if the navy wants a carrier if it only has around 10-12 odd subs operational

TSJones
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3022
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby TSJones » 03 Apr 2017 05:46

question to forum gurus.......

does India have the cavitation torpedo as developed by russia?

if not, why not?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15703
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 03 Apr 2017 07:05

negi wrote:I strongly believe that carrier aspirations of the IN are not backed enough by cause but by things like prestige and power projection ; .......................................


IN is a tool in the diplomats tool box.

India does not have the concept of bases in other nations. As a result the CBG becomes the quickest way to deploy or project power, in the IOR for sure, but perhaps even further if such a need were to arise.

What has complicated matters, other than the traditional delays, is the rise of China around India. The RE-design of the Vishal is as a result of Chinese moves.

With India becoming an economic (super?) power, a CBG is unavoidable. I have said this before, forget the Vicky (which I had said should be sold, even before it entered Indian waters), even the Vikrant will not do (IMHO of course). Yes, as Austin has been saying - loud and clear - it is a very expensive deal - a very, very valid point. How is that going to be solved I do not know - but that it will have to be is what I am saying.

I agree that India needs more subs, but not at the expense of a CBG. The eco-political stature of India will not allow that (subs, but no CBG) to happen.

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3464
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Apr 2017 07:59

TSJones wrote:does India have the cavitation torpedo as developed by russia?

if not, why not?

If you are referring to the Shkval, there is no open source info that India has purchased this torpedo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Apr 2017 08:47

Skhval is armed with a nukular warhead i read...to be fired against a incoming torpedo. We dont really deploy nukular devices as casually as the russians or amrikans

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1452
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 03 Apr 2017 10:40

NRao wrote:
negi wrote:I strongly believe that carrier aspirations of the IN are not backed enough by cause but by things like prestige and power projection ; .......................................


IN is a tool in the diplomats tool box.

India does not have the concept of bases in other nations. As a result the CBG becomes the quickest way to deploy or project power, in the IOR for sure, but perhaps even further if such a need were to arise.

What has complicated matters, other than the traditional delays, is the rise of China around India. The RE-design of the Vishal is as a result of Chinese moves.

With India becoming an economic (super?) power, a CBG is unavoidable. I have said this before, forget the Vicky (which I had said should be sold, even before it entered Indian waters), even the Vikrant will not do (IMHO of course). Yes, as Austin has been saying - loud and clear - it is a very expensive deal - a very, very valid point. How is that going to be solved I do not know - but that it will have to be is what I am saying.

I agree that India needs more subs, but not at the expense of a CBG. The eco-political stature of India will not allow that (subs, but no CBG) to happen.


This is exactly the feeling I have. NRao put it into better words than I but it is an instinctive feeling that we must preserve this capability even when all the cost-benefit studies are against.

Prestige and status are important if our aspirations are that of a global power. The fact that another global power is rising at the same time makes them even more so.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5951
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vina » 03 Apr 2017 10:50

TSJones wrote:question to forum gurus.......

does India have the cavitation torpedo as developed by russia?

if not, why not?

It is a straight line weapon, sort of like a bullet. It can't be guided, steering is very iffy. It is point and shoot. Loud as hell, shooter platform is dead after shooting it. Sub launched guided missiles are a far better bet.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19427
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Apr 2017 11:16

India signs for naval and coastguard Dhruv ALH helos

http://www.janes.com/article/69187/indi ... -alh-helos
India has signed an INR80 billion (USD1.2 billion) deal with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the procurement of 32 new Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters (ALHs) for the navy and coastguard.

The deal, announced by the company on 30 March, covers 16 helicopters for each service, as well as a five-year performance-based logistics contract. No delivery timeline was disclosed.

As noted by Jane's World Navies, the Indian Navy (IN) currently operates the SA 319B light utility helicopter, which is due to be retired by 2020. Initially the IN envisaged the HAL Dhruv ALH as a replacement but by 2007, following initial deliveries of the helicopter, the platform was considered unsuitable for naval operations.

In November 2013 the first Dhruv ALH Squadron, Indian Naval Air Squadron (INAS) 322, was commissioned at the IN's land base at Garuda in Kochi. Vice Admiral Soni said at the commissioning that the Dhruv would "soon be cleared for a night search and rescue role, one of the few helicopters in the world to have that capability over sea".

As of mid-2015 eight Dhruvs were operational with the navy and the coastguard. In July 2014 it was reported that the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had approved manufacture of 32 Dhruv Mk IIIs; 16 each for the IN and coastguard. In January 2016 the chief of the naval staff said that negotiations with HAL for procurement of additional Dhruvs were in their final stage.

The naval variant of the Dhruv features retractable tricycle gear, SV-2000 surveillance radar, harpoon decklock, pressure refuelling, and fairings on fuselage sides to house mainwheels, flotation gear, and batteries. The coastguard variant shares a high commonality with the naval version, featuring a nose-mounted surveillance radar; roof-mounted forward-looking infrared (FLIR); starboard side, cabin-mounted 7.62 mm machine gun; radar console and operator's seat; liferaft; and a loudhailer.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2045
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 03 Apr 2017 11:29

Shvkal is more of a rocket using cavitation technology and as Jones said travels in straight line without much guidance. It can use conventional warhead. Range is limited.
And yes China has bought this tech as well. Don't know whether they had cloned as well.
Buzzing CBG groups as well as subs popping up right in front were cold war games ..and looks likely to repeat in IOR.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60154
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Apr 2017 11:33

are france and UK considered global pawa on the basis of 1 CV each or a dozen nuclear subs each?

was russia with the limited kiev class & yak36 forger ever a global pawa ? :lol:

is a school of killer whales capable of crossing the ocean , killing anything in the sea and swim 100km a day not a global pawa?

in my book huge and advanced economy + massive exim trade + ICBM + SLBM + SSN to attack enemy SLOCs are a global pawa

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19427
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Apr 2017 11:37

There is new version of High Speed Weapons under work with guidance

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rpedo.html

Shkval is also getting upgrades

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rpedo.html

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1842
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 03 Apr 2017 17:50

To add to the above discussion on the role of a CBG in Indian context, I believe that the role of Carrier in Indian context is more of an Air Superiority/Air Dominance Ship and not a strike platform. The primary responsibility of attacking and striking enemy land and naval targets would be the responsibility of the DDG's, FFG's,SSK's and SSN's that are part of the CBG and not the carrier itself. The carrier air wing would be responsible for enforcing a no-fly zone in the air space over the CBG and countering any airborne threats to the CBG by flying BARCAP/FORCAP missions and neutralizing any airborne threats to the CBG itself. The limited strike capability of the embarked aircraft should be sufficient to handle any strike mission that may arise.

For this role both Vikramaditya and Vikrant are sufficient along with the LCA Mk2 as the embarked aircraft. This would allow the IN to retain their carrier qualifications and operate two of them without having to go for the white elephant with all the bells and whistles that drain the limited budget that the IN has.

Granted that this is not exactly what the IN wants and is not exactly a very big boost to the ego, it is still sufficient enough to maintain our carrier qualifications and the prestige and status as the oldest continuous operator of carriers in the region along with a slight improvement in our overall capability.

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1842
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 03 Apr 2017 18:13

Singha wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:Wouldn't a ship like the Moskova class be better suited for that role rather than a flat top like the Izumo??


Through decks like izumo permit the option of keeping vstol ac for rolling takeoffs and generally more areas to pack helis in a war situation. The moskva design is a heavily armed no lst version of the rotterdam or haruna class.

If you want cheap rotterdam
If you want capability better to run with hyuga or izumo style ships
If you want iphone then mistral juancarlos or some american design

I would say a mix of 6 rotterdam and 4 hyuga is enough for indian asw and littoral warfare needs. Hyuga as asw lead ships will be useful and potent vs a white hathi 65000t carrier...we could get 3 dogs for the price of 1 hathi

While I agree with you on the advantage of having a through deck ship as an ASW lead ship, I feel that a design like the Haruna or Moskva would be better as the ship can detect and prosecute a target independent of its embarked air wing and also have the capability to deliver a significant punch should she herself become engaged by enemy combatants, be it surface or airborne.

A ship like Haruna and Moskva leading a squadron of 4-5 upgraded Kora Class corvettes with VLS cells for Barak-8 and a hangar for the embarked helicopters should be enough for sanitizing a large area of sea for ASW, anti piracy patrols along with HADR missions.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9069
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 03 Apr 2017 18:45

I am a mango here. So mango post alert.

The basic problem is funding, industrial capacity and project management. Whatever we do we face this problem. So as long as all these things are in existence, there is no use in discussing anything as nothing can be implemented. China has the same things as advantages.

We need to relook into the Defense budget seriously. Our % spending in GDP is quite low. We can not dream of meeting China with its near bottomless budget and huge industrial capability in equal terms let alone overwhelm them.

In these conditions, we may have to look into sea denial strategy against China.

The cheaper solution suitable to us may be using long-range ACs with anti-Ship, and Anti-Sub capabilities like some of the gurus suggested. We can also see if Su30MKI with Brahmos can be used in much larger numbers for this purpose. More Jags with anti-ship role also can also be looked into.
We can invest more in some SSNs that are top quality and take care of any Chinese SSNs. We also need to build smaller size destroyers which are cheaper and pack a big punch. From what understand our Corvettes are larger than a normal Corvettes and are almost the size of a small frigate. May be we need to look into this type of design and innovate.

With this, we may have a serious advantage against any navy barring USN in IOR. Even China can not move ships without air cover from its carrier group.

End mango post alert.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4961
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 03 Apr 2017 20:37

chola wrote:Obviously, a stable full of SSN/SSK's would be the best counter.

Its the best counter in some situations. And can be utterly useless in several others. Keep in mind that the IN's surface fleet faces a similar threat from PN subs. The ocean is a massive massive place and a submarine is typically the slowest vessel in it. And while the IOR's steep temperature gradients inhibit sound propogation and increase submarine survivability, they make surface vessels equally hard to detect for submarine sonar.

V.Adm. Pradeep Chauhan's recent articles on the matter are quite illuminating -

http://www.defstrat.com/indian-maritime-airpower-part-1
http://www.defstrat.com/survivability-cbg-combat

I don't fear the tactical power of a chini CBG as much as the symbolic one. Any PLAN carrier in the IOR would be in transit as the IN AND the USN's 7th Fleet will be on its tail. It won't survive 24-hours if real war were to break out.

US involvement might be useful (or it might be counterproductive) but its not something that should be taken for granted when planning a naval campaign. With respect to the IN fleet - the sub forces might effectively seal up the IOR approaches IF the PLAN CBG isn't already deployed west of the Malacca on D-day.

Any IN subs operating in the open seas will need to be cued by aerial recce assets to position themselves for an attack on a fast moving CBG (unless they get very very lucky). And an LRMP, in turn, will need to get past the CBG fighter cover before it can get a bead on the carrier or its escorts; again, not easy thing to do. (There was another very interesting article posted on the forum about USN fighter ops and the deceptive routes flown by returning fighters to prevent the carrier's location being extrapolated from their tracks - I'll see if I can dig it up.)

The IN's surface fleet, meanwhile has the tools to engage an enemy fleet but lacks the assets to track a hostile fleet beyond the radar horizon. Its also at a disadvantage against aerial threats without carrier support - the first task of the carrier is to secure the skies and protect its 'escorts' - that's also why the original designation of the IAC was the Air Defence Ship (ADS).

That said, I don't think we'll see a PLAN CBG in the IOR in our lifetime. They have too much pressing concerns with the USN on their doorstep. But the symbolism of the PRC overtaking us in the one field where we used to dominate will be there where ever a PLAN CATOBAR is deployed. And we have none.

Well.. much the same was said about PLAN SSNs until they came calling in Colombo & Karachi. Today, PLAN surface & sub-surface assets entering the IOR is a fairly routine event. On the carrier front - while the 002 type entering our neighborhood is definitely a long way off (it'll probably take 10 years to FOC) a visit from the 001/001A isn't too far-fetched. The USN is a concern for them but at least in peacetime, there's no real way to bottle them into the SCS.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4961
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 03 Apr 2017 21:09

The salient point is that the force structure needs to be a well balanced one. Every combat arms supports the other. And while the aircraft carrier may be the most prominent symbol of US naval power, its also worth keeping in the mind that the USN (which pioneered the SSN/SSBN), fields a fleet of 70 submarines today.

As far as India is concerned, a second Vikrant-class ship won't make us a carrier-centric force. It'll just mean that when the Vikrant is in refit, air cover for the IN fleet isn't entirely dependent upon the reliability of the Vikramaditya's steam boilers and that we can sure of putting at least one carrier out to sea, if affairs were to take a bad turn.

The IAC-2, much like the AMCA, is a long term project that can continue in the background. India of the 2030s shouldn't have any significant problem operating & equipping one or (preferably) two 70k ton CATOBAR carriers though I wouldn't be entirely surprised if IOC for the IAC-2 slips to 2040 (unless our public shipyards shape up in the interim).

nachiket
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5803
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49
Location: Соединенные Штаты Америки

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 04 Apr 2017 02:55

Which aircraft would operate off of the Vikrant-2? The IN has rejected the LCA, they aren't too enamored with the Mig-29s, and the Rafales are not STOBAR capable. That leaves only the JSF-B, which hasn't actually been cleared to be sold to India AFAIK and might be beyond our budget.

We might be better off building the Vik-2 but filling it with medium ASW helos of the MH-60/NH-90 class along with Ka-31s. That would at least help manage the threat of Chinese SSNs.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Austin, Kakarat, pravula, suryag and 49 guests