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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Sep 2017 21:14

Viv S wrote:VLF communications from a UAV?!! How is that supposed to work?
Through a very long antennae? Even if it can, it will limit loiter time severely. Not all solutions have to be TFTA. Just trying to understand this purchase, its capabilities as purchased and limitations thereof, in its design or contractual/political.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 26 Sep 2017 21:28

ShauryaT wrote:Through a very long antennae? Even if it can, it will limit loiter time severely. Not all solutions have to be TFTA. Just trying to understand this purchase, its capabilities as purchased and limitations thereof, in its design or contractual/political.

It takes a very large aircraft to tow a very long antenna. 9 km long in the Tu-142MR's case IIRC (and that was a dedicated platform). Much simpler to transmit the data via SATCOM to the ground station and thereon to the ELF/VLF facility at Kattabomman. The time lag will still remain negligible relative to the speed of a naval vessel.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Sep 2017 21:39

Viv S wrote:The MQ-9B is equipped with a modular payload. The IN is not limited to the USCG's options.
How do you come to this conclusion, when the purchase is for the CG version? If not reports would say we are purchasing the MQ-9B and not the Guardian.

Range & loiter time are different properties. 11 hours may be sufficient for a 150 ton ASW aircraft, but its ridiculous to present it as an alternative to a 4.5 ton UAV (not least because its out-of-production). You deploy an ASW aircraft, the P-8I in the IN's case, where deployment is warranted based on available intelligence, and use the MQ-9s for persistent coverage elsewhere (and for general policing duties in peacetime).
It is the net capability that matters not the weight or its TFTA'ness. Also, persistent coverage is needed for ASW too is it not? - lacking in this purchase as being purchased, until retrofitted if and when.


The Indian counterpart to the GPS & GLONASS is the IRNSS, which is composed of seven satellites with coverage extending from Mongolia to South Africa. The INSAT series perform an entirely different function.
My bad, to confuse the two names. Did use IRNSS in a post above.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 26 Sep 2017 21:54

ShauryaT wrote:How do you come to this conclusion, when the purchase is for the CG version? If not reports would say we are purchasing the MQ-9B and not the Guardian.

Because the SeaGuardian is a payload configuration and the MQ-9B is an aircraft. The IN's request may include the SeaVue radar but are not necessarily limited to it, because of the modular nature of the aircraft.

It is the net capability that matters not the weight or its TFTA'ness. Also, persistent coverage is needed for ASW too is it not? - lacking in this purchase as being purchased, until retrofitted if and when.

That's like saying that artillery gun lacks the 'net capability' of a tank because it can't fire-on-the-move. Well its not supposed to - it has its own function.

Similarly, an RPA has a role to play, which is distinct from the role played by an MPA. One provides persistent sensor coverage while other can function as a weapons platform albeit with a much shorter loiter time and higher operating costs.

My bad, to confuse the two names. Did use IRNSS in a post above.

Either way, range is not an issue for the IRNSS or the GSAT-7.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2017 05:17

Long overdue and finally!!!

Sitharaman chairs first Defence Acquisition Council meeting, clears sonars, missiles for Navy
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 858143.cms

The DAC accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) to the Navy for the procurement of upgraded sonars for its destroyers and frigates through the Buy Indian (IDDM) route at a cost of Rs 200 cr.

The sonar in question is the HUMSA. The ALTAS towed array sonar - long overdue acquisition - is headed for trials...
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/913082028685279234

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/913080383050092544

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/913080665003794433

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/913081058257641472

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2017 05:23

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/913019265623588866

^^^ Additional procurement of Russian Klub missiles to replenish the naval inventory cleared by Defence Acquisition Council today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2017 05:31

Make sure you click on the photo for a bigger view and if you click on it a second time, you will get full screen view :)

Perhaps the first time that a photo of the apex Defence Acquisition Council meeting has been released
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/913077563840491525

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2017 05:31


Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2017 07:05

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Rakesh, you got it.
Now why is Chinese and US navy being discussed here?

That is because the pro import lobby wants to mimic the US Navy style of operations. Which is not a bad thing, but you need all the assets in play. We don't even have half the assets and the other half is wanting for capability.

Helicopters versus a Superfluous Seaplane
http://www.orfonline.org/research/helic ... -seaplane/

The Indian Navy’s current shortage of helicopters is so acute that most warships sail without their approved air component, leaving them virtually blind against underwater threats. Those in the know indicate that last year the navy sent the frigates INS Sahyadri, INS Satpura, fleet tanker INS Shakti and missile corvette Kirch for a two-and-a-half-month operational deployment to the South China Sea and Pacific with just one ageing anti-submarine helicopter between them — leaving the ships blind underwater during their transit through Peoples Liberation Army Navy-dominated waters of East Asia.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 28 Sep 2017 14:22

How not to negotiate a sub deal. Lesson for the GOI/IN/MOD reg. the P-75I prog.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 1680a78c14
Defence submarine contract analysis reveals another costly mistake
A computer-generated image of a 4500-tonne Barracuda shortfin submarine. Picture: AFP

We have done it again. As the horror of the Joint Strike Fighter mistake becomes understood and a series of other military equipment blunders come to the surface, the highest-powered consulting group ever to look at Australian defence has discovered the submarine contract with the French is a total shambles.

Given the history of mistakes we can now see that there is something fundamentally wrong with the defence decision-making process when it comes to major equipment projects. The government is now pouring extra money into defence but we are becoming a regional defence joke because we have taken the wrong equipment options.

And when you add that to the incredible blunders the NSW, Victorian and South Australian governments have made on energy, the deficit mess, and other government blunders we can see that something is horribly wrong with the way we are making decisions. More of that later.

Gary Johnston of Jaycar Electronics commissioned Insight Economics to undertake a detailed review. Michael Keating, who was head of the Australian Public Service, Secretary of three Commonwealth Departments, including Prime Minister Cabinet and Finance, led the Insight Economics investigation.

There is no person in Australia better equipped to do the job. And Keating pulled around him a top team. What Johnston did is what Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne should have done given the appalling record of defence decision-making. (Gay marriage issues may have diverted Christopher’s attention). Thanks to Michael Keating’s clear understanding of public service decision-making we can see where defence and Pyne got it wrong, and the incredible dangers their mistakes pose for the nation given the instability of our region.

READ MORE
Hoodwinked over sub tender?ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
‘Buy off-the-shelf or face dire results’ROSIE LEWIS
According to Michael Keating, Australia has taken the highest-risk highest cost option in the submarine decision with no proper consideration of the alternatives. Already, the project has changed dramatically from the original plan, thus increasing the risk.

The Keating analysis starts by setting out just how important submarines are for Australia’s defence. In his words:

“The lethal power of submarines and their ability to operate covertly means that they can provide a credible deterrent for a middle power, while also acting as an effective force multiplier in support of asymmetric warfare.

The question, therefore, is not whether the Navy needs to renew its submarine capability, but what would be the most appropriate type of submarine for the RAN and how many we need.”

Michael Keating, a former secretary of three Commonwealth Departments, including Prime Minister Cabinet and Finance. Picture: Tara Croser
Defence started looking at this in 2009. Keating isolates that the seed for the current submarine shambles was sown back then, but was never fully recognised.

In 2009 defence wanted the capacity to undertake a ‘strategic strike’, perhaps unilaterally, against a ‘major adversary’. Keating says that many experts regarded the 2009 capability requirement as a mission statement for a nuclear submarine, rather than a conventionally powered, diesel-electric boat, but we don’t have the industrial capacity for nuclear submarines.

The Keating/Insight Economics view is that the 2009 capability requirement for the future submarines was overly ambitious, and that any attempt to satisfy it with a new and untested design diesel-electric boat — apart from being excessively expensive — would inevitably risk compromising the submarine force’s ability to discharge its most essential operational tasks.

The ADF’s most important role, and plainly the highest priority role for our submarine force, is to be able to conduct independent operations in the defence of Australia and its closer neighbours.

According to Keating/Insight Economics four options were initially considered for the future submarine: a military off-the-shelf submarine; a similar purchase but modified to meet the navy’s requirements; an evolved Collins-class design; and a “from the beginning” developmental design.

Keating disputes the defence reasoning that rejected the first three lower-risk options.

But once they were rejected in 2015 the Abbott government established a ‘competitive evaluation process’ to select a design partner for the submarine. Three submarine builders, Naval Group (France), tkMS (Germany) and Mitsubishi (Japan) were invited to develop pre-design concepts for a submarine that could deliver the navy’s ambitious capability requirement.

Defence selected Naval Group as its sole design partner based on its concept submarine, the Shortfin Barracuda, a ‘from the beginning’ developmental design, based on the nuclear-powered Barracuda (Suffren class) submarine that has yet to put to sea. Delivery would be from the early 2030s to 2050.

Neither of the game-changing technologies for diesel submarines such as air-independent propulsion and lithium-ion batteries was included.
(It’s a bit like the JSF aircraft costs that go before the unsuspecting parliament that don’t include the engine). :rotfl: :rotfl:

Defence says the cost is $50 billion (at least twice the cost of the German tender) but Keating explains why the cost is likely to be much more, and we might gave to wait until around 2040 for an effective submarine as the contract gets deeper into the mire.

As you would expect from someone of the calibre of Michael Keating he sets out a whole set of alternative strategies that will deliver Australia real submarine defence at far lower cost and far lower risk.

But let’s step back. Why are governments of both major political parties making these fundamental mistakes time and time again? According to Keating the enormous submarine decision was rushed over one Anzac Day weekend. That’s lunacy given the importance. But the reason for the mistakes goes deeper. One reason is that ministers surround themselves with advisers who have the same views as themselves. These advisers overrule the public service time and time again.

As a result, people of talent leave the public service and it can no longer provide the impartial advice that it once could.

That’s certainly the reason behind the energy mistakes. In defence it goes back about a decade or two when a series of top people were pushed out and those who took over were not equipped for the task.

Governments must now go outside the defence hierarchy to check their decisions and conclusions. They can start with Michael Keating, who should be given the task of fixing up the mess. Defence us too important to be left to the current bunch.
..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Sep 2017 15:30

Sir Philip,

nothing to do with IN. Please post in IIN Naval thread. Pl contribute towards thread efficiency...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakkaji » 28 Sep 2017 19:27

Rakesh wrote:Make sure you click on the photo for a bigger view and if you click on it a second time, you will get full screen view :)

Perhaps the first time that a photo of the apex Defence Acquisition Council meeting has been released
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/913077563840491525


Notice the Chai-Biscoot on the table. :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Sep 2017 22:02

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/913019265623588866

^^^ Additional procurement of Russian Klub missiles to replenish the naval inventory cleared by Defence Acquisition Council today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub


Wonder if these is post mtcr no restriction 2500 km class klub lacm

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 28 Sep 2017 22:14

Curious is there any ASW UAV in the market at all?

I can't think of any equipped with MAD, sonobouys, torpedoes and depth charges.

At best UAV is a surveillance, radio intelligence and targeting platform. Navy already employs Herons in this role.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 28 Sep 2017 22:35

Austin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/913019265623588866

^^^ Additional procurement of Russian Klub missiles to replenish the naval inventory cleared by Defence Acquisition Council today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub


Wonder if these is post mtcr no restriction 2500 km class klub lacm


Would the naval vessels that carried the 300km version be able to accommodate a larger 2500km version missile ?

Austin
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Sep 2017 22:57

Yes the 3S14 Universal launcher can launch all variant of Klub and Brahmos these are on the talwar class without changes for long range variant

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Sep 2017 23:24

Defence Minister Sitharaman okays Russian Klub missiles for the Navy

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/nirm ... 57551.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 29 Sep 2017 10:11

Naval officer gives life to four in death

On World Heart Day on Thursday, the heart of Naval officer Sub Lieutenant Atul Kumar Pawar, 24, who died at a private hospital in Kochi will start beating in 50-year-old Subramanya Bhatt, a patient in Kottayam medical college. The officer belongs to Panchkula.

The organ was transferred by road in an hour through the green corridor set up by the district administration, Kochi and Kottayam city police.

The Centre and the state government machinery moved to fulfill the wish of naval officer's family who wanted their son's organs to be given to defence personnel awaiting donors. Following his request, naval officials contacted the members of National Organ & Tissue Transplant Organization (NOTTO), who in turn got in touch with the state government.

The officials of Kerala Network for Organ Sharing (KNOS) said that since the heart, liver and kidney were in good condition, NOTTO began efforts to transfer organs to the Army hospital in Delhi. However, due to technical difficulties, the plan was dropped. But conti nued efforts ensured that at least one organ, a kidney, was given to a patient at Air Force Command hospital in Bengaluru.

The kidney was transported by a special Indian Air Force (IAF) plane on Thursday and transferred to the Naval base, Kochi, from Aster Medicity hospital through a green corridor.It was then flown on an IAF aircraft for transplant to a recipient in Bengaluru. The liver and second kidney were donated to patients at Aster Medcity.


Salute to this hero.. and salute to his family.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 29 Sep 2017 10:17

Austin wrote:Defence Minister Sitharaman okays Russian Klub missiles for the Navy

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/nirm ... 57551.html


Doesn't look like we are getting the 2,500 version. In a way good as it could potentially dilute our Nirbhay program.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 29 Sep 2017 11:45

Two major points from the report.One,the Scorpene programme is extremely delayed,from 2005,it will take around 2023+ before we get the whole lot! 18 years to build just 6 subs that too at excessive cost. Compare this with the Russians,building KIlo subs,much larger,at the rate of one every 2 years.Vietnam got all its 6 in just 5 yrs. time at $300M/sub,whereas our Scorpenes are more than double that cost/sub.

Second point the torpedoes for the sub,yet to be finalised,perhaps why the sub is being commissioned only in Dec.LIttle point in sending it out with no weapons of offence and defence! Type of subs,still unknown except that Pak already uses German SeaHake fish.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/09/india-d ... submarine/
ASIA DEFENSE
India Delays Induction Date of Advanced Attack Submarine
India Delays Induction Date of Advanced Attack Submarine
The lead boat of the Indian Navy’s new class of attack submarines will likely be commissioned by November-December.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
September 27, 2017

The induction of the first Scorpene-class (Kalvari-class) diesel-electric attack submarine, INS Kalvari, is expected to occur in November or December of this year, a senior Indian naval official told local media this week.

“The Kalvari submarine has already been in the sea for sometime. Some 110 days of sea trials have been completed and more pre-commissioning sea trials are going on. We are expecting it to be commissioned by November-December this year, Indian Navy Vice Admiral Girish Luthra said on September 26.

Indian naval officials earlier this year stated that the new submarine will be commissioned in August or September 2017. Overall, the program — known as Project 75-I — has now been delayed by over four years.

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
Already in 2005, French shipbuilder Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS) was awarded a $4.16 billion contract to build six diesel electric attack submarines for the Indian Navy in cooperation with India’s prime ship maker, Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Limited.

The INS Kalvari’s sea-trials included the test firing of a German SeaHake torpedo and the launch of a French-made Exocet SM39, a sea-skimming, subsonic, solid-fueled anti-ship missile with an approximate operational range of 50-70 kilometers.

The INS Kalvari is equipped with six 533-millimeter torpedo tubes for launching anti-ship torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, and sea mines. However, the Indian Navy has still not procured heavy-weight torpedoes for the submarine. In June 2016, the Indian government cancelled an order of Black Shark heavyweight torpedos, built by Whitehead Alenia Systemi Subacquei (WASS), a subsidiary of Italian arms manufacturer Finmeccanica due to corruption allegations.

“The Black Shark torpedo was specifically purchased for the Indian Navy’s future fleet of six Scorpene-class (Kalvari-class) diesel-electric attack submarines,” I reported elsewhere. “A second batch of 49 Black Shark torpedoes was also to be installed aboard India’s domestically developed and built Arihant-class of nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines.”

While there has been some discussion over reviving the Black Shark deal, it is more likely that the Navy will opt for German-made SeaHake heavyweight torpedo or French F21 Artemis torpedoes instead.

The Kalvari-class will likely not be equipped with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. However, an indigenous AIP system could be added at a later stage. Vice Admiral Girish Luthra specifically mentioned the push for more Indian-made hardware in future boats. “The Indian Navy is keen on increasing indigenous components in ship building activity. We have also increased the indigenous components in submarines as well. The components’ share needs to be increased in weapons and sensors.” As I reported previously, India intends to build six additional diesel-electric subs in the near future:

[T]he Indian Navy has recently issued a request-for-information to six foreign manufacturers for a new $8 billion contract to build six submarines with AIP technology (…) The shortlist of manufacturers also includes DCNS; however, the company is unlikely to be selected following an embarrassing data leak (See: “India Drops Plans to Add 3 More French Stealth Attack Submarines”).

This week’s announcement about the Kalvari’s delayed induction date will likely mean that the second Kalvari-class diesel-electric attack submarine, christened Khanderi, which commenced sea trials in July, will likely be commissioned next year rather than at the end of 2017. As of now, the other four attack subs are still slated for delivery beginning in 2020 at an interval of nine months.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 29 Sep 2017 11:48

Agree with Phillip saar this time, order 10 Kilos, build 1 in Russia and 1 here and be done with SSKs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 29 Sep 2017 11:54

(Contd.)
The Artemis 21 torpedo.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -2016.html
Artemis: A Revolution in Heavy Torpedoes
(Source: French defence procurement agency, DGA; issued Oct 29, 2014)
(Issued in French only; unofficial translation by Defense-Aerospace.com)
The Artemis program aims to develop a new-generation heavy torpedo to equip French navy submarines. The program is presented at the Euronaval shos in Paris this week.

From 2016, the ten nuclear-powered submarines operated by the French Navy (six attack submarines and four missile boats) will begin to be equipped with a technological marvel: the new F21 heavyweight torpedo F21 developed as part of Artemis weapons program.

The DGA has awarded the French company DCNS contracts to design and produce this torpedo at the breaking edge of technology, which is designed to destroy or neutralize surface vessels (ships, boats) as well as submarines. "The F21 torpedo is the latest heavyweight torpedo in the world, and probably one of the most successful since it integrates the most advanced technologies," explains Jean-Marc Daubin, Artemis program manager.

Characteristics well in advance of the competition

The F21 heavyweight torpedo will replace the earlier F17 torpedo currently in service. In appearance, the two weapons are identical; a 6-meter long cylinder with a diameter of 533 mm (21 inches) and two sets of propellers. Inside, everything is different.

The F21 is wire-guided, that is to say it stays connected to the submarine by an optical fiber (the previous version used copper wire). This greatly increases the amount of information that can be exchanged between the two. This direct link also greatly facilitates operation and allows the submarine to discreetly monitor the torpedo until the final attack phase.

The F21 can also operate without wire guidance, as its acoustic homing system provides an excellent capability to detect and track targets autonomously. In addition, it has a very powerful electric battery that allows speeds of over 50 knots (over 90 km / h) and a range of more than 50 nautical miles.

Initial Delivery in Two Years

The Artemis program started in 2008 and the first delivery of production torpedoes is scheduled for 2016. "Since the spring of 2013, we have been testing a prototype in the Mediterranean Sea. To date, we have successfully conducted a dozen firings. Overall, the program currently calls for the delivery of 93 F21 torpedoes to be delivered beginning in 2016," says Jean-Marc Daubin.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prasad » 29 Sep 2017 12:32

People if you're in Mumbai on Oct 2, you can go see the INS Tarkash & INS Kolkatta at the Naval docks. Entry free for public. Just need a photo id and no mobile, cassandra allowed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Sep 2017 13:36

Philip wrote:Two major points from the report.One,the Scorpene programme is extremely delayed,from 2005,it will take around 2023+ before we get the whole lot! 18 years to build just 6 subs that too at excessive cost. Compare this with the Russians,building KIlo subs,much larger,at the rate of one every 2 years....


No French or German submarine has ever blown up in dock ever. We operate Shishumar and before french subs too; never happened.

Plus Western subs have high availability year round , not to mention ease of operating.

Kilo has availability of 75 days per year compared to 300+ for German or french subs.

Why make our submariners suffer in those cluttered inefficient accident prone geriatrics?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 29 Sep 2017 14:32

We should just have a followon order with Scorpene for MDL to not lose its skills, and another Kilo line at another shipyard. And we spend more time developing/perfecting our sonars, our AIP, our torpedoes and our cruise missiles to be launched from the TT.
VLS-launched brahmos etc can wait for our SSN.

Perfect is the enemy of good enough, and Kilos and Scorpenes are good enough. We waste a lot of time on perfection, while speed is of essence. Focus on sensors and missiles - there is only so much a great platform can offer.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 29 Sep 2017 15:01

MDL can build even German U-boats,skills need not be lost,the Scorpenes are now passe after their critical performance data was leaked The KIlo loss was due to SOPs not being followed during weapons loading which ws being done in a great hurry as the sub had to leave harbour for apatrol early morning..One report had it that a weapon even hit the dockside while being loaded.It may be that this was the weapon that developed a fault/leak of propellant,etc. and exploded. The Kilo's hull was so tough that nothing happened to the German U-boat alongside. That sub was saved becos of the Kilo's hull.

I'm not sure what better performance the Amur/Lada has over the Kilo,more being built for the RuN after a long delay after some eqpt. was perfected.
But two lines,one Ru and one western are reqd. to eventually replace the German U-boats and Ru KIlos.Some key eqpt. could be common to both types. AS it stands,no western boat can carry Klub/Kalibir and BMos-l (in the future),the most deadly sub-launched anti-ship/land attack missiles today.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 29 Sep 2017 15:05

Philip wrote:MDL can build even German U-boats,skills need not be lost,the Scorpenes are now passe after their critical performance data was leaked The KIlo loss was due to SOPs not being followed during weapons loading which ws being done in a great hurry as the sub had to leave harbour for apatrol early morning..One report had it that a weapon even hit the dockside while being loaded.It may be that this was the weapon that developed a fault/leak of propellant,etc. and exploded. The Kilo's hull was so tough that nothing happened to the German U-boat alongside. That sub was saved becos of the Kilo's hull.

I'm not sure what better performance the Amur/Lada has over the Kilo,more being built for the RuN after a long delay after some eqpt. was perfected.
But two lines,one Ru and one western are reqd. to eventually replace the German U-boats and Ru KIlos.Some key eqpt. could be common to both types. AS it stands,no western boat can carry Klub/Kalibir and BMos-l (in the future),the most deadly sub-launched anti-ship/land attack missiles today.


Far from perfected you say, yet they buy, fly and stand by it..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 29 Sep 2017 15:18

Production will resume.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ction.html

P 75I Indian Navy Submarine RFI Amur 1650 SSK RussiaComputer rendering of an Amur-1650 class SSK. Image: Rubin

AMUR-1650 - Russia (Rubin)
The Amur-class is the export variant of the Russian Lada-class. According to its designer, compared to Kilo class submarines, the Amur 1650 submarine features a reduced displacement. The boat is distinguished by the capability of firing up to 6 missiles in a salvo against targets at sea and on shore, state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems and a sonar with a unique passive antenna to detect silent targets at a large range. Acoustic signature of the Amur 1650 submarine is several times lower compared to Kilo class submarines which are currently considered to be the most silent in the world. The submarine is equipped with electronic warfare systems of new generation based on the recent hi-tech solutions. The submarine can be operated in any oceanic area, except for the regions with extensive ice fields, at any weather, and in shallow and deep waters.

Specifications (baseline)
Displacement: 1765 tons
Length: 66.8 meters
Beam: 7.1 meters

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Chinmay » 29 Sep 2017 15:25

Philip wrote:But two lines,one Ru and one western are reqd. to eventually replace the German U-boats and Ru KIlos.Some key eqpt. could be common to both types. AS it stands,no western boat can carry Klub/Kalibir and BMos-l (in the future),the most deadly sub-launched anti-ship/land attack missiles today.


'One Ru and one Western' line are required? Why for? Two lines for 'western' subs are quite ok. A more efficient option would be to give follow-on orders for the Scorpenes as the data leak issue has been resolved with no harm done. Skills for building submarines of various types are not the same. Kilos and U-boats are not the same, just like Flankers and Jaguars are not the same. I could build both, but building more of the same type would be more efficient once I gain the requisite skills.

Btw the Kilos are old. Why should we continue to build the old design (hags?), when we can get access to much newer subs?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 29 Sep 2017 16:48

Why have two separate sub design philosophy boats. Why not select one class and build up the numbers. That will make training quite easy and simplify the weapons procurement.

Ship yards will also have an easy time of building them.

Besides which just because we have had to different design philosophy boats in the past doesn't mean that we should continue with this in future.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Sep 2017 12:41

The simple reason is that western conv. subs have inferior weapon and sonar systems when compared with Ru subs.The Kilo is quieter than than a U-boat,its sonar superior to that of a U-209,and the Amur/Lada sonar even more superior than a Kilo's.Reports say that it can detect an N-sub at a range of 50+ km and a diesel/AIP boat at 20+ km in the littorals.It is also sev. times quieter than a Kilo. What stalled series production was an imperfect earlier AIP system.A new AIP system is on the cards and series production has restarted.
All current AIP systems have their plus and minus points.Some AIP systems make the sub even noisier than one without it. In fact the venerable Kilo has had much upgrades and is still so good that 6 more are being built at record speed (2 yrs. a boat)for the RuN's Pacific Fleet.

Equally important is that Ru sub-launched weaponry is far superior to anything from the West (NATO) except for some US systems like Tomahawk,for which the Russians have their Kalibir equiv. Both Exocets and sub-Harpoons are subsonic,unlike Mach 3 terminal warheads of the Klub (more just ordered by NS for the IN) and have a lesser range too. The Klub is a universal missile with anti-ship,land attack and anti-sub variants.There is simply no equivalent in the Western world. The Western boats cannot accommodate these weapons and even BMos in the future. Once BMos-L arrives (hyper-BMos later),it may be possible to modify the design of some Western suns to accomodate Ru weaponry,but unlikely that Russia will allow it on a rival sub. Russian subs are also at least 25-30% cheaper than any Western sub.The US builds no conv. boats at all and even if it did would never part with its sub tech.IT's not even willing to build conv. subs for ally Taiwan!

The Scorpenes are passe.Now an old design,more than 6 years late and way over budget for non-AIP Scorpenes. The data leak has killed the poss. of building more such subs. I posted some details of flaws in the OZ selection of a DCNS design for their huge order for examination by us as we start to evaluate the designs being offered. However,the German U-boats in IN service have had an excellent record and it is worth evaluating these boats for the HUK role in the littorals.KIlos,Amurs/whatever better suited to more blue-water missions. We've decades of experience with German subs and should continue to examine what they have to offer. At this stage in time,we have decades to go before mastering sub tech.Let's not fool ourselves.Therefore operating both western and Russian conv. boats and the Ru new AIP system is based upon the fuel recovery system,something similar to what the DRDO is working on (JV being explored with Ru for the same),will give us a huge advantage.We can then later on design our own sub taking the best features from both technologies.

GIven that our nuclear boats will all carry a large Russian "flavour" to them,it will be common sense to also operate conv. RU sub designs,so that crews can switch subs easily,since many components,sensors,weaponry,SOPs will be the same,along with much of the eqpt.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 30 Sep 2017 15:27

Kakkaji wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Make sure you click on the photo for a bigger view and if you click on it a second time, you will get full screen view :)

Perhaps the first time that a photo of the apex Defence Acquisition Council meeting has been released
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/913077563840491525


Notice the Chai-Biscoot on the table. :)


I noticed all those documents fully laid out ..doesnt that count as a security breach ???

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 30 Sep 2017 16:17

kit wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:
Notice the Chai-Biscoot on the table. :)


I noticed all those documents fully laid out ..doesnt that count as a security breach ???



Worse. I see the biscoots but no chai. Just bottled water. What is this, a Wipro call center meeting? How can a babu of the acquisition raj get through a work session this way?!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Sep 2017 16:59

Austin wrote:Better not to put an unproven DRDO AIP module in Operational Submarine like Scorpene , Safety in Submarine is of the highest level and any unproven system increases risk for the platform and the people manning them and you dont want you best submarine out of combat because you have an untested AIP on it

Let them test and fine tune it for it longer on any test platform for few year before deploying on Scorpene class , May be pull out one old Kilo or U-209 and proof test on it for few years.

We should have opted for MESMA AIP Module for all our Scorpene class which are proven and reliable AIP may not be the best but it would have increased Scorpene under water endurance by 15-20 days.



Apparently DRDO AIP is much more safer than MESMA AIP.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 30 Sep 2017 17:04

Prasad wrote:People if you're in Mumbai on Oct 2, you can go see the INS Tarkash & INS Kolkatta at the Naval docks. Entry free for public. Just need a photo id and no mobile, cassandra allowed.


Sirji, any timings etc. Any website to see?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 30 Sep 2017 17:34

Thakur_B wrote:
Austin wrote:Better not to put an unproven DRDO AIP module in Operational Submarine like Scorpene , Safety in Submarine is of the highest level and any unproven system increases risk for the platform and the people manning them and you dont want you best submarine out of combat because you have an untested AIP on it

Let them test and fine tune it for it longer on any test platform for few year before deploying on Scorpene class , May be pull out one old Kilo or U-209 and proof test on it for few years.

We should have opted for MESMA AIP Module for all our Scorpene class which are proven and reliable AIP may not be the best but it would have increased Scorpene under water endurance by 15-20 days.



Apparently DRDO AIP is much more safer than MESMA AIP.


Any details available for the drdo aip in comparison with the mesma ??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 30 Sep 2017 17:37

Yagnasri wrote:
Prasad wrote:People if you're in Mumbai on Oct 2, you can go see the INS Tarkash & INS Kolkatta at the Naval docks. Entry free for public. Just need a photo id and no mobile, cassandra allowed.


Sirji, any timings etc. Any website to see?


It's given in the navy's twitter handle.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Sep 2017 22:59

Admiral D.K. Joshi (Retd) appointed as Lt Gov of A&N Islands. Good move!

Who is Devendra Kumar Joshi?
http://indianexpress.com/article/who-is ... l-4868201/

Devendra Kumar Joshi was appointed the Lieutenant Governor of Andaman and Nicobar Islands on Saturday by President Ram Nath Kovind. The 63-year-old is a decorated Admiral of the Navy. Joshi served as the Chief of Naval Staff from 31 August 2012 to 26 February 2014. A product of the National Defence Academy (NDA), he was commissioned into the Executive Branch of the Indian Navy on April 1, 1974. He has studied at the US Naval War College as well as at the College of Naval Warfare in Mumbai.

From 1996-99, he held the position of Defence Adviser at the Indian High Commission in Singapore. In addition to this, he has led the Vizag-Eastern Navy Fleet. Among the awards presented to him are the Param Vishist Seva Medal, the Ati Vishist Seva medal, Yudh Seva Medal, Nau Sena Medal and the Vishist Seva Medal. He was also a former Deputy Chief of Naval Staff, Commander in Chief of the Andaman & Nicobar Island Command as well as the Chief of the Integrated Defence Staff to the Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prasad » 01 Oct 2017 12:41

Karthik S wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:
Sirji, any timings etc. Any website to see?


It's given in the navy's twitter handle.

Yeah. 10am - 3 or something. Please check the Navy's twitter handle for details.


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