Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Katare
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 26 Feb 2018 20:20

This better be the last of the major ships that IN is importing. Band karo import tumhari ma ko $&@);, bahut hua import tumhari ma ko ....(to barrow from (alegedly) Kaka hathrasi’s holi poem)

Replace import with matdaan ( vote) for original. Search on you tube if you understan hindi

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakkaji » 26 Feb 2018 21:07

Gurus, is this a significant purchase by the Navy?

Sterlite technologies gets Navy order

the company announced that it has been awarded a Rs 35 billion advance purchase order to design, build and manage the Indian Navy’s communications network.

“The company is to build Next Gen Communications Network for the Indian Navy. The Rs 35 billion system integration project will enable the Indian Navy with a digital communications network at par with the most advanced naval forces globally,” Sterlite Technologies said in a press release.

The scope requires Sterlite Tech to design, build and manage the communications network for over a decade through its system integration capabilities. Unparalleled in scope and size, the project includes the creation of a high-capacity IP-MPLS (Internet Protocol - Multi Protocol Label Switching) network

Once completed, it will link multiple Indian naval sites and India-administered islands, it added.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 26 Feb 2018 21:13

Our carrier program back on track? :D

https://theprint.in/2018/02/23/indias-future-buy-list-submarine-launched-drones-combat-uavs-aircraft-carrier/

Submarine-launched drones, combat UAVs, aircraft carrier part of India’s future buy list
MANU PUBBY

India is looking to induct futuristic weapon systems such as submarine-launched drones, highly manoeuvrable combat UAVs, an additional aircraft carrier and laser weapons in the next decade, a defence ministry roadmap for acquiring new technology reveals.
...

The list also perhaps lays to rest a confrontation between the Navy and defence ministry over plans to add another aircraft carrier to the fleet. At present, India operates one carrier (INS Vikramaditya) while another (INS Vikrant) is under construction at Kochi. The Navy has been keen on a third but its proposal was met by objections from the ministry due to the financial resources required.
...


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Feb 2018 21:15

Back on track, but without nuclear propulsion.

chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 26 Feb 2018 21:17

^^^ It doesn’t need to be nook. It needs to be CATOBAR to be relevant for the future though, IMHO.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Feb 2018 21:19

CATOBAR yes, nuclear powered no. MoD not willing to loosen the purse strings yet.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 26 Feb 2018 22:31

Aditya_V wrote:The Scorpenes will get DRDO AIP as MLU. Starting around 6 years from now

DRDO AIP :- India Indigenously Developed Air Independent Propulsion System For Scorpene Submarine

DRDO developed PAFC powered AIP module technology already has been transferred to Thermax Ltd in Pune for further production even though first Scorpene submarines to get indigenous AIP System will happen only in 2021-22 when they come for their first refit after which all Six submarines will get AIP module.

Navy also plans to use DRDO developed AIP System for Six next generation Diesel-Electric submarines which will be procured under Project-75I (India) soon. DRDO also has given hints that it will also start work on next-generation AIP technology which can be incorporated in future Indian-built submarines under Project-76.


Fantastic, that they have also involved a Private sector company. This is the way to go.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 27 Feb 2018 00:51

Navy should wake up and smell the coffee. This is a time where even air force is unable to buy fighters - and over here Navy wants to buy 3 squadrons of the latest - and a brand new CATOBAR carrier to go along with. :roll:

I expect the navy to be realistic - as it has always been - and order another Vikrant class carrier. This way at least they can defer the purchase of fighter aircraft or place an incremental order of MiGs. Only in the rare scenario when all 3 carriers are out will the fighter complement appear thin.

There are plenty of other programs where funds can be used, including the 100+ order of choppers.

chola wrote:Our carrier program back on track? :D

https://theprint.in/2018/02/23/indias-future-buy-list-submarine-launched-drones-combat-uavs-aircraft-carrier/

Submarine-launched drones, combat UAVs, aircraft carrier part of India’s future buy list
MANU PUBBY

India is looking to induct futuristic weapon systems such as submarine-launched drones, highly manoeuvrable combat UAVs, an additional aircraft carrier and laser weapons in the next decade, a defence ministry roadmap for acquiring new technology reveals.
...

The list also perhaps lays to rest a confrontation between the Navy and defence ministry over plans to add another aircraft carrier to the fleet. At present, India operates one carrier (INS Vikramaditya) while another (INS Vikrant) is under construction at Kochi. The Navy has been keen on a third but its proposal was met by objections from the ministry due to the financial resources required.
...


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 27 Feb 2018 02:12

Aditya G wrote:Navy should wake up and smell the coffee. This is a time where even air force is unable to buy fighters - and over here Navy wants to buy 3 squadrons of the latest - and a brand new CATOBAR carrier to go along with. :roll:


If you ask for the stars you might get the moon !

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2018 09:21

kit wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Navy should wake up and smell the coffee. This is a time where even air force is unable to buy fighters - and over here Navy wants to buy 3 squadrons of the latest - and a brand new CATOBAR carrier to go along with. :roll:


If you ask for the stars you might get the moon!

This is another case of where the end-user doesn't care about what defense budget is allocated for capital acquisitions for them for the foreseeable future (i.e. next 5/10 years). They don't seem to restraint their purchases and prioritize in order to fit the budget. Affordability is thrown out the window for best brochure specs as is often the case. One of the reasons why major Indian import acquisitions take so long.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 27 Feb 2018 09:25

everyone is working in isolation without any joint doctrine of where we want to be in 5,10,15 years...its every arm and service for itself given their separate budgets, separate lobbies and unsureness about multi year funding commitments....

more than in a war this is perhaps where a joint chief or theater command kind of system would help the planning and procurement.

as it stands, I am not sure we even have proper projections and planning targeted to chinese land , sea and aerospace forces threats in the 5,10,15,20 year timeframe. ad hocism and best guesses rule.

this is our historical failing - no lack of courage or commitment or ethics on the battlefield, but lack of planning for emerging threats and disunity on what to do about it

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2018 09:44

^^^
+1

To me, the limited amount available in the defense budget for capital acquisition vs the demands placed by the end-users (IAF, IA, IN, et al) is totally off-sync. Some examples: You have the IA raising MSC plus other divisions with 90,000 more troops even when 80% of their annual budget goes into salaries. Where is the money to modernize bulk of their obsolete equipment? The IAF insisting on 42 squadrons with very expensive imported fighters when even to acquire 6 squadrons would cost upwards of $20 billion dollars. Never going to happen. The IN joining the fray by simultaneously requesting to import 57 naval fighters along with massive 3rd aircraft carrier. Not to mention billions of dollars more required for P-75I submarine acquisition. All of these supposed to happen "urgently" as per individual requirements. Unless the armed forces and GoI (MoF, MoD, et al) sit down and plan out the future in a joint manner (desired capability w/ available budget), the mess that we see will continue.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby yensoy » 27 Feb 2018 09:57

Katare wrote:This better be the last of the major ships that IN is importing. Band karo import tumhari ma ko $&@);, bahut hua import tumhari ma ko ....(to barrow from (alegedly) Kaka hathrasi’s holi poem)

Replace import with matdaan ( vote) for original. Search on you tube if you understan hindi


This deal is happening in the shadow of the Chakra sonar dome; maybe there is some quid pro quo. Also the 2 units supplied by the Russians are already built (hulls) and only need fitments and furnishings, the remaining being built in India. This may not be such a bad deal for all parties - remember we need to feed the Russians from time to time keep them from arming the Pakis.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 27 Feb 2018 10:02

^^^ Russians are already arming the Pakis. There are 100 JF-17s in PAF service, each with a Russian RD-93 engine.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby yensoy » 27 Feb 2018 10:11

chola wrote:^^^ Russians are already arming the Pakis. There are 100 JF-17s in PAF service, each with a Russian RD-93 engine.


It is a global marketplace. Someone will supply the canopy, someone will supply the tyres, someone the parachutes. Let us know when the Russians arm Pakis with entire fixed wing aircraft, or supply them S-400s, or do a major joint development.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 27 Feb 2018 10:12

Singha wrote:everyone is working in isolation without any joint doctrine of where we want to be in 5,10,15 years...its every arm and service for itself given their separate budgets, separate lobbies and unsureness about multi year funding commitments....


Ships, especially carriers, have very long lead times. The Navy has to propose forward trending assets that seem very expensive today but will be less so in the future when they are commissioned.

Ordering only what you could afford today means you will be behind the curve when the system finally makes it to water.

I don’t blame the Navy. Another STOBAR would lock us into a less capable launch system and the MiG-29K for years more as it would soak up funding and available manufacturing resources for at least another decade.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 27 Feb 2018 10:49

yensoy wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Russians are already arming the Pakis. There are 100 JF-17s in PAF service, each with a Russian RD-93 engine.


Let us know when the Russians arm Pakis with entire fixed wing aircraft, or supply them S-400s, or do a major joint development.


That day is not far away, just as long as the beggars can somehow put together the money to buy fixed wing aircraft. S-400 can only come if the Saudis decide to "gift" them some. Russia has now begun to sell gunships to Pakistan. Fixed wing aircraft can't be that far behind.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prem » 27 Feb 2018 10:54

Kartik wrote:
yensoy wrote:
Let us know when the Russians arm Pakis with entire fixed wing aircraft, or supply them S-400s, or do a major joint development.


That day is not far away, just as long as the beggars can somehow put together the money to buy fixed wing aircraft. S-400 can only come if the Saudis decide to "gift" them some. Russia has now begun to sell gunships to Pakistan. Fixed wing aircraft can't be that far behind.


From that day onward Russia will lose India as customer. How much stuff Saudi and Cheeni can gift to by buying from Russia? I am sure Russians ain't that stupid to earn penny while losing millions.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 27 Feb 2018 12:07

We already have the third carrier with us,"INS India"! But how many of our defence planners recognise it? From INS India we were able to sanitise the entire ocean all the way to S.Af. when our Bears were with us.They should've been replaced automatically,if their useful lives were over with replacements,preferably Backfires for the maritime strike role.P-8Is do not have the range or weapons that these Ru aircraft can carry.Based on the mainland and also able to operate from the ANC,they could strike anywhere in the Indo-China Sea equipped with LR ASMs,of the BMos and Nirbhay variety.There are also other Ru ASMs,which the USN fear greatly as to their accuracy,speed (M-5) ,and range.

The large CV catobar style,is at this moment simply unaffordable and also much lower in priority as the sub fleet is in deep crisis.China will in the next decade have around 100 subs of nuclear and conv./AIP design. It will be able to saturate the IN with its subs,just as the Germans did in the Atlantic in WW2,not counting the 12+ that the Pakis will also have by then. It is astonishing and utterly condemnable of the MOD,GOIs, that from the time of Adm.Bhagwat,two decades ago,we haven't even decided what the successor to the Scorpenes,Kilo and U-boats will be?! P-75I has been touted time and again ad nauseum,but no decision still.In fact the rival sub types too who will fight it out hasn't been called or even known.
The design of the next batch of 6 SSNs still a mystery.Then there are some in the IN who favour a USN style,with large carriers as the spearhead,but forgetting that unlike the US, we have NO ambitions of expeditionary warfare at all.More than the 3rd carrier waht is needed as of yesterday are more subs,some bought outright and some built at home,with at least two lines of AIP subs simultaneously.We need smaller stealthy AIP HUK subs for the IOR to protect our coastline and deal with Paki subs,with another AIP larger type equipped with BMos,etc. for the multi-role blue-water tasking.SSNs and SSGNs for the multi-ocean role and the SSBNs for the strategic deterrent.Rght now the U-boats (to be upgraded) and Scorpenes entering service will be adequate for the HUK role,superior to anything that the Pakis possess,barring the Agosta's AIP capability. The Kilos upgraded to fire Klub SSM and land attack SSMs,are fine for the multi-role tasks within the IOR mainly.For them to operate in the ICS would require substantial logistic facilities in the ANC as well as permanent stationing of a sub tender.But these boats too are going in for their second refit! They can't serve beyond 2025 onwards,the oldest ones and will need replacing.A new Ru multi-role AIP sub which can also carry BMos should be one line of sub-building in the future to replace Kilos.The second line to be a western sub line replacing the Scorpenes and U-boats,ideally U-boats if the Scorpene data exposes are detrimental to our boats and that the French will give OZ superior sub-tech and boats to anything that they will offer us keeping up their promises to Oz which is how they won the huge sub deal for 12 boats.

Every island equipped with a runway capable of operating fighters and AEW plus LRMP aircraft is an unsinkable carrier. WE need to leverage all our island assets as well as building real world class naval and air facilities at Agalega and Assumption Island in Isle Maurice the Seychelles.With Duqm in Oman,SPore and hopefully a substantial multi-dimensional naval facility in Vietnam to mirror what the Chins are doing in Gwadar and Jiwani,plus a possible logistic facility at Chahbahar -if we play our iranian cards well,we should have our own chain of pearls in the IOR right to the ICS and Pacific beyond.From the ICS onwards,we should have at least 8-12 subs on permanent patrol there,with at least 2 being SSNs/SSGNs.These will be our forward line should the balloon go uo with China in the Himalayas.The Chinese economy relies massively upon trade,not to mention its energy imports.Disrupting that lifeline would be of immense help in ending any spat with china on our terms.The IN must be the future spearhead of India's mil. strategy against china.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby yensoy » 27 Feb 2018 13:07

Philip wrote:The design of the next batch of 6 SSNs still a mystery.


And that's the way it is with these animals or should I say deep sea creatures?

3 carriers is a perfectly reasonable long-term ask. One carrier introduced every 15 years. One carrier in the dock, one each to the East and West (or to the East and Far East). Carrier retired and replaced after 45 years. Amortized capital cost of around 300M$/year towards acquiring carrier and aviation wing, or something roughly in that ballpark, to build a corpus of $4.5B in 15 years that it takes to get the next one. This should get much cheaper as fraction of our GDP as time and economy progresses. As chola pointed out, long lead times mean that the third carrier will be with us probably no earlier than 2030 for which groundwork needs to be prepared yesterday.

Meanwhile we need to develop a Vanar Sena. A nuisance navy / blue water "coast guard" tasked with harassment and counter-harrassment, which is what the Chinese have been doing both in waters and on land.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 27 Feb 2018 13:21

srai wrote:
kit wrote:
If you ask for the stars you might get the moon!

This is another case of where the end-user doesn't care about what defense budget is allocated for capital acquisitions for them for the foreseeable future (i.e. next 5/10 years). They don't seem to restraint their purchases and prioritize in order to fit the budget. Affordability is thrown out the window for best brochure specs as is often the case. One of the reasons why major Indian import acquisitions take so long.



Ha ha ha ha... end user. Srai, this isn't some IT project or commercial deal with customers at one end and India at another. End User remains India.

Indian state wants its armed forces to project their capability requirement for future and the armed forces do it. If the Indian state wants it to be a joint plan all it has to do is tell the armed forces to make joint plans.

If budget is a constraint, then let the Indian State tell the armed forces that plan within budget and so and so is the budget. As things stand today, if the Services were to present a joint plan without authorisation, the 03 Chiefs would be fried for Mutiny.

In another thread a report on procurement process had the Minister of State of Defence lamenting the screwed up Procurement process in MoD. Is the person really a Minister or what? His Govt, came up with the DPP 2016 or didn't they?

Plans and projections of weapons requirements are based on scenarios which each service presents to the MoD and the Govt as per the directive to the Services. They cannot submit suomotto. It is upto the GOI and MoD to accept it or not.

The trap is simple - A complicated procurement process so difficult to handle that every year planned expenditure is less than budgeted. Now cite this shortfall in spending to cut the budget and then geniuses like you scream at services for planning ambitiously. End User of the plans is the GOI, Sir ji. They asked for it.

India needs weapons of higher caliber and in much greater quantity. Read up the China thread. It is not an Armed Forces fantasy. You think Armed Forces are some child who was given birth accidentally. India's first PM reportedly wanted to do away with them all together. The lack of military perspective or strategic though while buying weapons among the Civilian powers is the biggest bane of our procurement process. Your posts are a clear example of how civilian authorities think. On this forum you have told me that 03 days of high altitude acclimatisation is good enough since you needed just that for trekking. Man, are you really serious about what you write? Soldiering and Trekking are same to you? Of course you see the Armed Forces as End Users of civilian benevolence.

And for who the "end effing user" is - tell it to those families on the J&K border as who uses the bombs we buy. They will tell you it is the Pakistanis who tend use it at last. Get out of your "bash the armed forces" mentality in every post and try seeing the state of things.

End user my foot.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shashankk » 27 Feb 2018 14:34

Sterlite Technologies bags Rs 3,500 crore project from Indian Navy



New Delhi: Sterlite Technologies on Monday said it has been awarded a Rs3,500-crore advance purchase order to design, build and manage the Indian Navy’s communications network.

“The Rs3500-crore system integration project will enable the Indian Navy with a digital communications network at par with the most advanced naval forces globally,” the company said in a statement.

This will give the navy digital defence supremacy at par with the best naval forces globally. This is the first time that an integrated naval communications network at such a scale is being built in India, the company added.

The navy’s communications network has been envisioned as a smarter network infrastructure with enhanced throughput, high-quality secure services and ease of network management. The scope requires Sterlite Tech to design, build and manage the communications network for over a decade through its system integration capabilities, it said.

“Our recent experience of creating an intrusion-proof communication network for the Indian Army in Jammu & Kashmir will be leveraged for the Navy’s communications network. We look forward to delivering this end-to-end strategic network for the Indian Navy with our unique software-to-silicon capabilities,” said Anand Agarwal, CEO, Sterlite Technologies.

K.S. Rao, COO and MD (Telecom Products & Services), Sterlite Technologies, said, “It is our privilege to work for the Indian defence, and build an integrated communications network at such a scale. This will provide a secure and reliable digital highway to the Indian Navy for administrative and defence operations.”

Unparalleled in scope and size, the project includes the creation of a high-capacity IP-MPLS (Internet Protocol - Multi Protocol Label Switching) network. Once completed, it will link multiple Indian naval sites and India-administered islands, the company said.



http://www.livemint.com/Companies/kMDlM ... ndian.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 28 Feb 2018 04:48

India to buy 4 additional Krivak III class frigates

NEW DELHI --- New Delhi and Moscow have finalised contractual terms for four new stealth frigates that Russia will supply the Indian Navy for slightly over Rs 200 billion ($3 billion), or about Rs 50 billion ($775 million) per vessel.

Designated the “Upgraded Krivak III class”, the first two frigates will be built in Yantar Shipyard, in Kaliningrad, Russia. The following two will be built in Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) with technology and designs transferred by Yantar. Delivery will begin within four years of signing the contract.

With a defence ministry “cost negotiation committee” having hammered out terms, it remains for the finance ministry and the Cabinet to clear what will be the first capital warship contract signed since Project 17A was contracted in early-2015. The navy already operates six Krivak III frigates. The first three joined the fleet between June 2003 and April 2004, followed by another three between April 2012 and June 2013.

With the current contract, the navy will operate 10 Krivak III frigates — the fleet’s largest single type. The Krivak III costs marginally less than the Rs 57.50 billion ($888 million) that the navy will pay for each of seven indigenous frigates that Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) have been contracted to build under Project 17A.

However, tonne-for-tonne, the indigenous frigates are cheaper. Each displaces about 5,600 tonnes fully loaded, significantly more muscular than the 4,000-tonne Krivak III. Further, each Project 17A frigate has space for two multi-role helicopters, while the smaller Krivak III embarks just a single Kamov-31 chopper. An extra helicopter provides major advantages in anti-submarine operations and airborne early warning.

Even so, with MDL, GRSE and GSL already stretched to capacity, navy planners are satisfied that Yantar is meeting India’s urgent need for more capital warships. The navy is also pleased with how the Krivak III fleet has performed over time. New Delhi wanted to build all four Krivak III frigates in GSL under ‘Make in India’.

However, Yantar had already part-built two frigates for the Russian Navy, which then backed away for lack of funds. New Delhi has obliged Moscow by buying them. The part-built frigates at Yantar are also stalled by a defence embargo that Ukraine imposed on Russia after the latter annexed the Crimea.

New Delhi, which has close defence relations with Ukraine, has undertaken to procure and provide Yantar the Zorya turbines that will power these. The agreed terms stipulate a certain level of Indianisation for the first two vessels that Yantar will deliver, and a significantly higher level for the next two vessels that are to be built in Goa.

For GSL, building a vessel as complex as a frigate will require upgrading its facilities and skills. However, naval planners say GSL should not take long to learn, having recently undergone the experience of building missile corvettes that are similarly dense in weapons and sensors.

These new Krivak III frigates will have the same engines and armament configuration as Yantar’s last three frigates — INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand. These include the vaunted BrahMos anti-ship and land attack missile.

Senior naval planners underline the advantages of negotiating a “follow-on” contract, i.e. for vessels similar to those procured earlier. While it took six months to negotiate the contract for the Teg, Tarkash and Trikand, negotiations for the current contract took only 45 days to negotiate and finalise.

The navy’s medium-term plans envisage increasing warship strength from the current 140-odd, to 198 warships by 2027. This will require adding 5-6 warships annually. While some 75 vessels of various types are in the navy’s procurement pipeline, there remains a worrying shortfall of frigates, which are the navy’s workhorses. “We need to have at least 24 frigates. Currently we are 10 short,” says a senior admiral.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby anjan » 28 Feb 2018 08:04

We're sailing in a bomb, said INS Sindhuratna officer hours before death

As an Indian Navy board of inquiry investigates the Feb 26 disaster on board Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhuratna, a shattering twist has surfaced throwing up enormous questions for Navy and government leadership and their culpability. Just 96 hours before the accident, navy officer Lieutenant Manoranjan Kumar, one of two officers who perished on board, had spoken to seniors about how operating the INS Sindhuratna and her sister submarines was like 'sailing on a bomb'.


There is a systemic and utter lack of any concern for the lives of our fighting men - Army, Air Force, Navy. Their lives are cheap no matter the political dispensation. There will be a cost to be paid one day. One hopes it won't come with too many cities burnt down.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Feb 2018 08:12

Sterlite Tech bags Rs 3,500 cr order from Indian Navy
http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... y/1080632/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Feb 2018 08:13

Caley builds submarine launch and recovery system for Indian Navy
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/c ... dian-navy/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 28 Feb 2018 12:28

The long awaited deal for the 4 extra upgraded Talwars having been approved is excellent news. The acquisition has taken several years of talks,etc. Desi yard full to capacity with orders of DDGs,FFGs,corvettes,OPVs,etc.,has necessitated such a move,buying a couple from abroad and building two at GSL. In fact if the yard does the biz,one could see a few more FFGs being built there. The IN's surface fleet is in far better shape than its sub fleet,though lacking enormously in an essential ingredient,ASW/MR helos .med helos down to LUHs. The amphibs being planned,will also require their fleet of assault helos.More AEW helos reqd. too.

What is however reqd. is a new design for a multi-role missile corvette class smaller than a P-28 but larger than our old Khukri/Kora class. Equipped with a lightweight main DP gun of 76mm.8 SSMs (Bmos/Klub/Nirbhay),a QRSR anti-missile SAM system,gatlings,LW torpedoes,TAS and an ASW helo/hangar,of around 2000-2500t max, built in large no.,say 12-16 vessels,would give us the numbers reqd. for the rapidly expanding responsibilities for teh IN in the IOR and beyond.These along with the P-28s and Talwars,would be the workhorses of the fleet.The cost should be kept to around 1/3 to 1/2 that of a Talwar sized FFG.All 12+ could be built en masse for between $3-5 B.In addition,exg. OPVs,etc. upgraded with extra weaponry,principally SSMs and enhanced ASW capability.These are reqd. because of the huge number of PLAN subs that we'll have to deal with post 2020 onwards and PN subs in support too.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Feb 2018 17:05

this is the long range Boeing Clipper of 1941. it could fly at 200kmph for 15 hrs. could a modern version be useful a LRMP with a considerable payload of weapons and very comfortable living quarters for a spare crew ?

could be useful kit because it can land and disgorge zodiac boats with crew for anti piracy and anti terror ops
could field a couple of guns and certain a few missile and torpedoes
drop a lot of sonobuoys and process them onboard

I fear the BAMS and Heron TP have only a surface search radar, cameras and ELINT sensors and nothing in terms of ASW capability. they are useless against submarines which are out main threat.

new engines could be used and the body somewhat streamlined and new materials used to increase the endurance to say 24 hours with 2 props feathered for economy as it ghosts through the endless seas of the IOR

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 28 Feb 2018 23:05

Looks like an aerodynamics nightmare

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sohamn » 01 Mar 2018 00:12

Philip wrote:The long awaited deal for the 4 extra upgraded Talwars having been approved is excellent news. The acquisition has taken several years of talks,etc. Desi yard full to capacity with orders of DDGs,FFGs,corvettes,OPVs,etc.,has necessitated such a move,buying a couple from abroad and building two at GSL. In fact if the yard does the biz,one could see a few more FFGs being built there. The IN's surface fleet is in far better shape than its sub fleet,though lacking enormously in an essential ingredient,ASW/MR helos .med helos down to LUHs. The amphibs being planned,will also require their fleet of assault helos.More AEW helos reqd. too.


I thought talwar's were going to be built at Pipavav, why change it to Goa Shipyard?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 01 Mar 2018 20:40

Pip was in trouble, some delayed orders.GSL doing rather well.State owned for such an important programme.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby yensoy » 01 Mar 2018 21:59

Singha wrote:this is the long range Boeing Clipper of 1941. it could fly at 200kmph for 15 hrs. could a modern version be useful a LRMP with a considerable payload of weapons and very comfortable living quarters for a spare crew ?
...
could be useful kit because it can land and disgorge zodiac boats with crew for anti piracy and anti terror ops
could field a couple of guns and certain a few missile and torpedoes
drop a lot of sonobuoys and process them onboard
...
new engines could be used and the body somewhat streamlined and new materials used to increase the endurance to say 24 hours with 2 props feathered for economy as it ghosts through the endless seas of the IOR


Why would you want to scour the "endless seas of the IOR" at 200kmph when you can do it in the comfort of a P-8i flying at 35000' at mach 0.82? At 200kmph, you would be able to reach Maldives and back, that's it. This is not Long Range.

However as a rapid reaction force transport there is definitely merit in a seaplane, since these are intended for near shore operations (seas need to be rather calm for these to land), but something like a ShinMaywa US2 should do the trick.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 01 Mar 2018 22:40

Philip wrote:The long awaited deal for the 4 extra upgraded Talwars having been approved is excellent news.
...
Talwar sized FFG.All 12+ could be built en masse for between $3-5 B.In addition,exg. OPVs,etc. upgraded with extra weaponry,principally SSMs and enhanced ASW capability.These are reqd. because of the huge number of PLAN subs that we'll have to deal with post 2020 onwards and PN subs in support too.


Filipov. These four Talwars cost $775M each and that is before the engines from Ukraine. These are nearly billion dollar destroyer-priced ships when frigates should be the cheaper workhorses of the fleet!

We don’t have a huge budget with cost restraints everywhere but my goodness we do spend lavishly on imported maal!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sohamn » 02 Mar 2018 00:32

^^^^ It is possible that there are hidden aspects of the deal. There were no requirement to buy Talwars, navy could have just built more P17A for the same price. I think India makes such lavish deals with Russia in exchange for political capital and secretive technology like nuclear propulsion, stealth, MIRV tech etc. Otherwise, I cannot fathom why India would buy Talwar when it can make more capable ships for the same money and generating more jobs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 02 Mar 2018 01:49

^^^ The P17A is insanely expensive for a frigate too but that is another story and the money spent is on building our own capacity.

The Talwars are actually comparable to — and smaller than — our Shivalik class which cost $350M per ship. So I hope it is for other benefits as well. Otherwise, we are spending more than twice as much on a firangi platform that is less capable than its domestic equivalent.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 02 Mar 2018 02:45

sohamn wrote:^^^^ It is possible that there are hidden aspects of the deal. There were no requirement to buy Talwars, navy could have just built more P17A for the same price. I think India makes such lavish deals with Russia in exchange for political capital and secretive technology like nuclear propulsion, stealth, MIRV tech etc. Otherwise, I cannot fathom why India would buy Talwar when it can make more capable ships for the same money and generating more jobs.

In this case, it is more of the first than the second. Russia started complaining that we helped you all these years and now you shunt us out of any of your competitions pretty early. Ka-226 was also one such buy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Mar 2018 03:46

For over 4-5 years extra Talwars were being planned for. We could've got the second batch fof the same price as the first but the MOD asininely, or deliberately allowed the cut-off date to be passed and offer to lapse.We had to spend more for batch-2.By this timd the Adm.Grig.FFGs were in the pipeline and the unexpected UKR spat happened with no Zorya engines too, if the FFGs were going to Russia.Our yards full of orders with more on the anvil couldn't take up the slack and initially it was thought that a pvt. yard could fo the biz.Pip was in trouble over an earlier order so GSL got the plums.If they do the biz one may see further upgraded FFGs ordered based on the same excellent hull.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakkaji » 02 Mar 2018 04:22

I agree with Philip on this order. These ships are needed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 02 Mar 2018 04:58

chola wrote:^^^ The P17A is insanely expensive for a frigate too but that is another story and the money spent is on building our own capacity.

The Talwars are actually comparable to — and smaller than — our Shivalik class which cost $350M per ship. So I hope it is for other benefits as well. Otherwise, we are spending more than twice as much on a firangi platform that is less capable than its domestic equivalent.

That's incorrect Shivalik cost around 600 mill USD (2400 crores 40-45 USD conversion at that time) in 2010. But Imo we should have continued building them but navy was hesitant due to price tag and wanted a better bang for buck and went with P17a. If shivalik were built now with Barak-8 and Brahmos they would around 800 million likely little more than P-15b due to design improvements and western turbines.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 02 Mar 2018 08:12

John wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ The P17A is insanely expensive for a frigate too but that is another story and the money spent is on building our own capacity.

The Talwars are actually comparable to — and smaller than — our Shivalik class which cost $350M per ship. So I hope it is for other benefits as well. Otherwise, we are spending more than twice as much on a firangi platform that is less capable than its domestic equivalent.

That's incorrect Shivalik cost around 600 mill USD (2400 crores 40-45 USD conversion at that time) in 2010. But Imo we should have continued building them but navy was hesitant due to price tag and wanted a better bang for buck and went with P17a. If shivalik were built now with Barak-8 and Brahmos they would around 800 million likely little more than P-15b due to design improvements and western turbines.


Thank you, John, for the correction (I should have checked further than the main wiki pages.) The Talwars’ price in this case is not as bad as I thought.


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