Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 22 Mar 2018 22:55

ramana wrote:Anyone know if OFB was making 4.5" guns for ships?

No. Vickers factory in Kandivali, a suburb in Mumbai did support British equipment
http://www.eaton.in/EatonIN/OurCompany/ ... /index.htm

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 22 Mar 2018 23:43

Indian Navy Heron UAV crashes shortly after take off from Porbandar

An Indian Navy (IN) Heron medium-altitude, long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) crashed soon after taking off from Porbandar on India’s west coast on 22 March.

The IN said in a statement that the Israeli-built UAV was on a routine surveillance flight when it crashed, adding that no injuries or loss of life were suffered.

An official inquiry has been launched to determine the cause of the crash.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 23 Mar 2018 00:04

Singha wrote:we should take a leaf from chinese book and develop huge naval and air bases in the nicobar chain but leave existing islands mostly untouched.
instead just dump rocks and sand and make 20 feet high flat islands for docks and air bases and supply depots, off the real islands.
burrow deftly into some andaman islands to make naval caves with minimal surface footprint!

nicobar being coral atolls vs volcanic islands of andaman, will be shallow sea and easy to build up. infact the area between andamans and thai coast is also shallow.


The eco-banshees will descend on you :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prasad » 23 Mar 2018 00:15

The testing range setup was headache enough. With the hornbills.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 23 Mar 2018 17:29

Cosmo_R wrote:The eco-banshees will descend on you :)


Cosmo Ji,
In this day and age, the above statement is absurd, I feel. We are facing major environmental challenges, apart from politico-economic ones from all the savagery we have done on earth and humanity is paying the price for it too.

It is incumbent on us to balance both the requirement to preserve the delicate balance of the ecosystem and our requirements for national security. In any case no more in this from me. Sorry about the OT.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Will » 23 Mar 2018 18:45

Gagan wrote:There is expansion of runways happening now in the A&N islands. The plan is to have a 3+Km runway station long range Maritime partol aircraft there, along with MKI type planes.
MKIs are already on rotating deployment to Car Nicobar.
Port Blair has little space, but there is need for larger capital ships to be berthed there, including 65,000 Ton Carriers. Currently they anchor outside the inner harbour.


The A&N islands need to be developed as a major base with the capability to berth major naval assets including aircraft carriers along with army and airforce detachments to defend the same and conduct strike ops. I bet the A&N chain being in Indian hands is something the Chinese are cursing :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 23 Mar 2018 22:52

Cosmo_R wrote:
Singha wrote:we should take a leaf from chinese book and develop huge naval and air bases in the nicobar chain but leave existing islands mostly untouched.
instead just dump rocks and sand and make 20 feet high flat islands for docks and air bases and supply depots, off the real islands.
burrow deftly into some andaman islands to make naval caves with minimal surface footprint!

nicobar being coral atolls vs volcanic islands of andaman, will be shallow sea and easy to build up. infact the area between andamans and thai coast is also shallow.


The eco-banshees will descend on you :)


I am ready to commit singha to a gulag right there should he think more about this!! I am watching you both! :twisted:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 24 Mar 2018 05:12

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:The eco-banshees will descend on you :)


Cosmo Ji,
In this day and age, the above statement is absurd, I feel. We are facing major environmental challenges, apart from politico-economic ones from all the savagery we have done on earth and humanity is paying the price for it too.

It is incumbent on us to balance both the requirement to preserve the delicate balance of the ecosystem and our requirements for national security. In any case no more in this from me. Sorry about the OT.


Bala-ji, in the late 1950s, JLN talked about the border with China as "not even a blade of grass grows there." During the NDA period, Jayanti Natrajan and Rahul Gandhi spiked BRO plans. The Chinese had no such qualms.

Balances are always delicate. The Dragon knows how to deal with scales. We don't. All we have are high decibel talking heads in the media.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 24 Mar 2018 07:48

Cosmo_R wrote:Bala-ji, in the late 1950s, JLN talked about the border with China as "not even a blade of grass grows there."

Sorry to digress. I am no fan of JLN actions but I have been unable to find this quote - like Djinnah's speech about seckoolarijm in Pakistan. Anyone have a ref? Or is it an "urban legend"?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sivab » 24 Mar 2018 08:39

shiv wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Bala-ji, in the late 1950s, JLN talked about the border with China as "not even a blade of grass grows there."

Sorry to digress. I am no fan of JLN actions but I have been unable to find this quote - like Djinnah's speech about seckoolarijm in Pakistan. Anyone have a ref? Or is it an "urban legend"?


Not sure exactly what kind of reference you are looking for. There are numerous references that say such a statement was made in parliament debate in 1960's. You will need to look at parliament records for official reference. If you just need a credible reference, here is one by Kiren Rijiju, MoS HM.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-19 ... ju-2141003

Minister of State for Home Affairs Kiren Rijiju on Sunday said former prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru's words in Parliament on the Chinese aggression in Ladakh and Arunachal had really pinched our hearts, and had demoralised our forces and the local people. "Participating in a debate in Parliament over the Chinese aggression, the then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru had said: "In those barren land and mountains of Ladakh and Arunachal, not even a blade of grass grows, why Parliament is wasting time," said Rijiju, adding that it is a reality that China took over the entire western part of Arunachal Pradesh, which was a part of Assam in 1962. The Chinese had reached Assam in the foothills of Arunachal Pradesh, and the then prime minister Nehru had stated, "'...my heart goes out to people of Assam', which amounted to surrendering of our territories to the Chinese," said Rijiju.


Per wiki, the official reference is as below, but need to be confirmed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavir_T ... hin_debate

On 5 December 1961, a year before the Sino-Indian war, Tyagi famously criticised Nehru's statement in the Indian Parliament. Nehru had commented : “But, nevertheless, the fact remains that this area is a most extraordinary area in the world so far as terrain is concerned. At that rate, no tree grows anywhere in this wide area -- there may be some shrubs.”. Tyagi retorted, pointing to his own bald head: "No hair grows on my head. Does it mean that the head has no value?". [Discussion, 5 December 1961, Lok Sabha Debates, Vol. LX, 2-8 December 1961, cited in Selected Works of Jawaharlal Nehru, (Second Series), Volume 73, p. 571]

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 24 Mar 2018 11:05

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/decommissioning-ceremony-ins-ganga-0
Indian Naval Ship Ganga, an indigenously built frigate of the Indian Navy was decommissioned on 22 March 2018 after rendering more than three decades of service to the nation. The ship was commissioned on 30 December 1985 and represented a big step in the nation’s warship building capability.

The decommissioning ceremony was attended by officers and men, both serving and retired, who had served onboard the ship in the past. The poignant ceremony, which saw the naval ensign hauled down for the last time at sunset, was conducted by Captain NP Pradeep, the last Commanding Officer of the ship. The Chief Guest for the ceremony was Vice Admiral AK Bhal, who served the ship from 1989 to 1991 and the special guest of honour was Vice Admiral KK Kohli (Retd), the first Commanding Officer of INS Ganga

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Mar 2018 19:48

Let's hope this is the start of a new relationship!

Myanmar Navy To Test Indian Waters In A Joint Naval Exercise With India
ON MARCH 26, 2018
By:India Today

Battleships from Myanmar have arrived at Vishakhapatnam to take part in India and Myanmar Navy Exercise 2018 (IMNEX-18). The exercise is being held off the eastern coast of India.

The exercise will be carried out in two phases namely the harbour phase (25th-30th March) and the sea phase (31st March-3rd April)

UMS King Sin Phyu Shin (Frigate) and UMS Inlay (Off-shore patrol vessel) are the two Myanmarese navy battleships that are taking part in the joint exercise.

The exercise is aimed at strengthening professional interaction between the two navies, both in harbour and at sea. This will kick-start the process of attaining interoperability between the two navies. The Myanmar navy had also participated in the recently concluded MILAN-18 maritime exercise at Port Blair.

The Indian Navy would be represented by INS Sahyadri (Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) Stealth Frigate), INS Kamorta (ASW stealth Corvette), a Chetak helicopter, two Hawk advanced jet trainer aircrafts and a submarine.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby arun » 27 Mar 2018 08:55

Three Pondicherry Class / Natya 1 Class Minesweepers, INS Konkan, INS Cannanore and INS Cuddalore decommissioned.

PTI via Economic Times:

Navy decommissions 3 minesweepers

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 27 Mar 2018 09:38

sivab wrote:Not sure exactly what kind of reference you are looking for. There are numerous references that say such a statement was made in parliament debate in 1960's. You will need to look at parliament records for official reference. If you just need a credible reference, here is one by Kiren Rijiju, MoS HM.

Many thanks for the pointers. I will search for exact quotes and dates

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 27 Mar 2018 10:24

arun wrote:Three Pondicherry Class / Natya 1 Class Minesweepers, INS Konkan, INS Cannanore and INS Cuddalore decommissioned.

PTI via Economic Times:

Navy decommissions 3 minesweepers


and our new minesweepers are still not close to be being signed despite being on the radar er sonar since kargil times?
are we mounting a dhanush type local effort ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 27 Mar 2018 11:46

Dreadful state of affairs.At leats we could've obtained from the US,perhaps on lease for the interim,helo-operating mine countermeasure systems,since MCMs take some time to build.This shortage was seen aeons ago.The IN too must take some share of the blame as it could've prioritised 6-8 MCMs instead of one or two FFGs.At the very least,asked Russia for similar replacements/lease whatever.IN naval bases are now clealy open to enemy mining,with sophisticated mines that can be switched on only when war breaks out.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 27 Mar 2018 13:46

shiv wrote:
sivab wrote:Not sure exactly what kind of reference you are looking for. There are numerous references that say such a statement was made in parliament debate in 1960's. You will need to look at parliament records for official reference. If you just need a credible reference, here is one by Kiren Rijiju, MoS HM.

Many thanks for the pointers. I will search for exact quotes and dates


Shiv ji, If this is of any help...

Jawaharlal Nehru Selected Speeches Volume 4 - 1957-1963

Chapter - India's borders with China

September 10, 1959 - Reply to debate in Rajya Sabha

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 27 Mar 2018 18:30

shiv wrote:
sivab wrote:Not sure exactly what kind of reference you are looking for. There are numerous references that say such a statement was made in parliament debate in 1960's. You will need to look at parliament records for official reference. If you just need a credible reference, here is one by Kiren Rijiju, MoS HM.

Many thanks for the pointers. I will search for exact quotes and dates

If you find any please do share, i have not found any either. Seems a typical case of out of context quoting to suit specific agenda.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 27 Mar 2018 19:09

What happens when ships get decommissioned ? Esp smaller ships like the minesweepers. Are they going to get scrapped or used for sailor training ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 27 Mar 2018 19:13

Katare wrote:
shiv wrote:Many thanks for the pointers. I will search for exact quotes and dates

If you find any please do share, i have not found any either. Seems a typical case of out of context quoting to suit specific agenda.


Katare ji, I have given the link to that reference, in my previous post..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 27 Mar 2018 20:13

srin wrote:What happens when ships get decommissioned ? Esp smaller ships like the minesweepers. Are they going to get scrapped or used for sailor training ?


Ruski ones generally get used for target practice and sunk as there are no takers for the inferior metal, the older brit ones and maybe the Indian made ones too (not very sure) get auctioned off for their metal value and generally get turned into razor blades.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 27 Mar 2018 20:14

Thanks for the link, It appears he is explaining why we didn’t find out about Chinese incurson sooner and why the armed forces were not protecting the borders. But lets stop here, we are not suppose to talk politics at BRF. Enough digression, these are last words from me.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 29 Mar 2018 01:50

IN turns towards portable systems for interim MCM requirements

India will focus on portable and tethered MCM systems to meet interim requirements after decommissioning three minesweepers
Service is not expected to receive new MCMVs for at least three more years

After retiring all but one of its Pondicherry (Natya I)-class minesweepers, the Indian Navy is now focusing on interim minesweeping and portable sonar systems as an interim measure while awaiting the acquisition of new mine countermeasure vessels (MCMVs), service officials have told Jane’s .

The Indian Navy decommissioned three Pondicherry-class MCMVs on 23 March. The 61 m vessels, INS Cuddalore , INS Cannanore , and INS Konkan , were retired after about three decades of service. INS Kozhikode (M 71) is now India’s sole MCM ship that is still in service, and it is currently deployed with the navy’s 21st MCM squadron.

Among portable systems currently employed include 12 units of the EdgeTech-supplied Littoral Mine Countermeasures Sonars (LMCS). The systems are now being deployed from a number of different platforms, including the service’s fleet of Car Nicobar-class fast attack craft.

In addition, the Indian Navy has also issued a request for information (RFI) for at least eight units of expendable underwater mine disposal systems. Being sought is a portable and expandable remotely operated vehicle (ROV)-based system that can detect and neutralise mines in harbours and sea approaches.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 29 Mar 2018 02:09

srin wrote:What happens when ships get decommissioned ? Esp smaller ships like the minesweepers. Are they going to get scrapped or used for sailor training ?

Not sure about specific ships, but some have been used for Brahmos missile testing

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby arun » 29 Mar 2018 09:36

Kartik wrote:IN turns towards portable systems for interim MCM requirements

India will focus on portable and tethered MCM systems to meet interim requirements after decommissioning three minesweepers
Service is not expected to receive new MCMVs for at least three more years

……………. Among portable systems currently employed include 12 units of the EdgeTech-supplied Littoral Mine Countermeasures Sonars (LMCS). The systems are now being deployed from a number of different platforms, including the service’s fleet of Car Nicobar-class fast attack craft. ……………..



Thanks.

Sad we have to adopt jugaad MCMV's.

2013 EdgeTech Press release:

EdgeTech Announces the Delivery of 12 LMCS Minehunting Systems to the Indian Navy

July 1, 2013

EdgeTech, the world’s leading provider of commercial and military side scan sonar systems, has just completed delivery of 12 advanced sonar systems for the Indian Navy. EdgeTech was awarded the contract after a performance trial with a competing side scan sonar manufacturer; the LMCS System was selected based on its superior performance and meeting or exceeding all the trial requirements of the Indian Navy. The company supplied their Littoral Mine Countermeasure Sonar (LMCS) System employing dual detection and classification capabilities configured to work with SeeByte’s SeeTrack Automated Target Recognition (ATR) software. These systems are the designated upgrade to the Indian Navy’s Pondicherry Class Minesweepers as well as for use on other non-MCM vessels for minehunting.

Clicky

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 29 Mar 2018 13:21

These are mere garage mechanic stop-gap arrangements,which are wholly inadequate for modern mine warfare,esp. mines laid down by subs. NATO navies had a platform.which was capable of multiple uses incl. mine warfare a decade ago. We have often bought secondhand eqpt. to tide over in a crisis.I'm sre that there are many MCM vessels with a good service life left in them which could complement any new vessels acquired.The IN requires at least 24 such vessels as we also have the island territories to look after. I would suggest that the IN undertakes an exercise where our subs,playing the role of the 'red" froce,attempts to lay dummy mines at our principal bases on the western seaboard.That will I'm sure be a wake up call to the cobwebbed minds in the MOD and a swift G-to-G deal is sealed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2018 15:26

^^ all our vital docks are protected by a anti frogman/chariot high frequency sonar system. you just dont get walk in anymore. marcos and our hdw subs must have tried this n times to test.

i went and checked the kangnam brochure to learn exactly what they bring to the table that its unobtainium and expensive. their main USP seems to be building this 880t GRP hull with shock resistance from explosions. other than they are just integrating european gear for mine hunting thats all.
http://www.kangnamship.co.kr/en/images/ ... ochure.pdf
for this they want $1 billion no less!!

MCM - bae systems deep mechanical and combined influence sweep system - real value
- 2 gyrobot pluto ROV - real value

combat system - thomson marconi TSM 2061 mk3 <yawn>
raytheon I-band radar <double yawn>

thomson marconi type 2093 VDS - why can't we adapt the high frequency mine avoidance sonar used in our subs like arihant?

it is my postulation in that we have not funded or tried hard enough to make systems like these
https://www.harris.com/solution/mechani ... ing-system
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... ting-sonar

our needs are huge, we cannot import 3 and call it a day, we need 30-50. so must fund and try hard. end this shit and end the gravy train.

this is one more import/influence circus we need to kill. white bwana always bring colour beads and mirrors and wants gold and diamonds from native king.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 29 Mar 2018 20:37

Yup.Once saw an MCM trg. a firang team in the Scottish islands. Our muddy waters on the west coast makes sub hunting difficult let alone mine detection! Our 16 inshore ASW corvettes platform could also be leveraged perhaps into an MCM inshore vessel.Fibreglass constr. We have at least one Ind. co. to my knowledge who are pioneers in building such vessels.I know they've supplied some ribs, launches ,cutters maybe go the IN and CG.Once saw some CG chappies at their boatyard.

The problem is that at a desi co. is taken less seriously than a firang one.There has go be faf5 more r&d work, vessels built by the IN covering various didciplines, but the budget is so miserly that basic critical eqpt. is unavailable like ASW helos for surface ships, etc.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2018 08:12

Astonishing!

An " operational limitation" may have been a factor preventing our intervention in the Maldives.No amphibs, which the IN desperately wants. Our current landings ships are "either too old or too small".INS Jalashwa was bought giving the US an assurance that it would not be used for war! The CAG slammed ghe then govt. (Snake-Oil Singh) for buying this useless warship and remember its defective helos too.

We apparently want speedy warships with a 1000nm radius.The IN / MOD put our reqs. for amphibs worth $3B,
of about 40k t says the report- not sure if that was the total tonnage or the dpl. of each LPD.These would also require heavy assault helos .Nothing has happened thus far.Another case of budgetary woes.The GII must loosen its purse and devote at least 3% of the GDP to defence otherwise we will be unable to resist the challenge from China and end up either being taught some seriou mil. lessons, perhaps even huge setbacks in J&K and Ar. Pr. if the Pakis and Chinese attack together, or weakly succumb and become another vassal state to the Dragon, ending up as lackeys.

As for assets to untervene in the Maldives, where do we need tanks there requiring LPDs? In Cactus the airport was secured at night, airlift of troops done in large manner and the rest fell into place.Even the IN was nowhere but fortuitously some returning warships from the east were diverted and intercepted the merchantman carrying the coup militia and their leaders.

We have today a large merchant fleet, some passr. ferries sailing to the ANC , and as the RN did during the Falklands
(STUFT), took ships from trade.The absence of Ro-Ro vessels in the merchantmarine- been crying about that for 25 years, must be filled as they can carry both troops and AVs, heavy vehicles, etc.

All that is needed in the Maldives is to seize the airport and Male.A naval blockade of a few atolls enough.The whole op could require just CG vessels if need be! However , also sending MIG-29Ks at low level over the tadpole's "palace" at night would have the same effect as IAF MIGs rocketing the E.Paki's governor's mansion in '71.
Yameen must be squeezed continuously by all means, diplomatic, economic and military and a definite timetable must be prepared for his ouster and ensuring a return to democratic rule in the country.

The Nepalese pro- Chin Oli and the Chins have begun to dance together signing deal after deal and openly criticising India.In such a situ, why doesn't the PM cancel his visit and inpose tradd sanctions against China for its continuous anti- Indian campaign? But is he getting the right advice from those who want to appease Xi just like Neville Chamberlin appeased Hitler.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pankajs » 30 Mar 2018 08:33

^
Please stop spreading falsehood like *An " operational limitation" may have been a factor preventing our intervention in the Maldives*

Many reports have been posted on this forum regarding Indian deployment around Maldives. It is inconceivable that someone who has been a regular on the Maldives thread missed those items. Of-course if one is interested in pushing a certain angle then one tends to ignore news items that contradict that angle.

We can follow the Putin model on the Baltic states when dealing with our neighboring tadpoles countries.

This treating other smaller countries as "Tadpoles" is what is partly responsible for our current predicament. Condescension dripping from every word. And the solution being offered is more of the same! That to me sounds like ostrich yoga more than anything else.

Maldives does not need our help *at this time*. They can figure out their destiny on their own. Same is the case with Sri Lanka and Nepal.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2018 09:49

That is a direct quote from today's media, the IN bemoaing the absence of LPDs, Trenton can't be used in war too old.CAG had " slammed" the (UPA) govt for the deal.Exg. LSTs/ LCs insufficient to transport the amphib brigade of 3000 troops and their eqpt.

40K t earmarked at $3B.No idea of ideal vessel size as L&T have teamed up with Navantia for the JC class, v.popular worldwide, while the Mistral is the other contender, R co. I think.

IN/GOI must consider obtaining Ro-Ro vessels for coastal transport as is being done all over Europe, which in a crisis can be used for troops and heavy vehicles transportation. Some assets of the merchant fleet flying the SCI flag must be meang for this purpose.

JC class better ghan thd Mistrals as it is more capable and with a ski-jump can also carry STOVL aircraft for GA/CS duties apart from reg. CAP/ strike.
Last edited by Philip on 30 Mar 2018 11:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pankajs » 30 Mar 2018 10:35

-- deleted --

I was just on the verge of moving this to Maldives thread. Will do in the next few minutes.
Last edited by pankajs on 30 Mar 2018 10:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SSridhar » 30 Mar 2018 10:48

Gentlemen, let us not discuss political strategies here.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2018 11:01

Sorry.I thought it was the M td! Will delete it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2018 14:43

We dont need military LPH ships just a waste of submarine money
Commercial ro ro ships are cheap , comfortable and fast
More than enough for disaster relief and flag showing
There must be shallow draft models too

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 01 Apr 2018 03:47

When commissioned Shivaliks did not have HWT. I dont know if that has been added now.

This missing armament makes Shivalik a destroyer rather than a frigate imho

John wrote:
Katare wrote:John, can you please do a comparison of Shivaliks and Talwars. Strengths, weaknesses, pro and cons ?

Sure.

Design: Shivalik. While both vessels incorporate radar cross section reduction. Shivalik incorporates far more of these features and super structure is fully enclosed and weapon systems like torpedo tubes are tucked away inside the structure. Talwar in other hand doesn't even have enclosed mast which makes the mast rather cluttered and should give much higher radar cross section. Also Shivalik incorporates great deal of IR and noise reduction.

Hanger: Shivalik. Shivalik can operate 2 medium helos or one large helicopter, where as Talwar's landing pad and hanger are quite limited in space.

Propulsion: Shivalik. CODOG is superior to COGAG (Talwar) in terms of ASW operations (lower noise) and range when operating on just Pielstick.

Radar suite: Shivalik. The EL\M-2238 is superior to Fregat where as former is phased array radar the latter is planar array radar with design dating back to cold war. While 2238 serves as secondary radar it can potentially replace Fregat and be used as primary radar and used to guide Barak-8 SAM.

Weapon Suite: Shivalik. Both vessels are fairly comparable but Shivalik has the advantage with its twin Rbu-6000 weapon system where as Talwar only single Rbu-6000. Both vessels can be fitted with Kashtan or two Ak-630 + Barak-1 combination. Russians seem to have already fitted Ak-630 on later Grigorovich vessels so i suspect IN will not get Kashtan-M but rather Ak-630 and will fit Barak-1 or SR-SAM during refit.

Main Gun: Toss up. Oto 76 mm is license built locally and is proven weapon system with ability to fire DART and Vulcano rounds. But A-190 is 100 mm at a rate of fire of 80 rate of fire. While on paper A190 looks to be superior, Oto is far easier to maintain and offers more versatility.

EW/ECM/Sonar: Even, Any locally built talwar is likely to get domestic suite similar to what is fitted on P-15A/B/Shivalik.

Cost: Talwar? This deserve question mark since the deal is currently 750 million (another 30 million for turbines?) each where as Shivalik cost around 500-600 million in 2010, i suspect if Shivalik are built now will cost around 800-850 million.

Also current cost figures for Talwar doesn't include any potential cost overruns which are likely to happen while Talwar are built in GSL.

John
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 01 Apr 2018 05:58

Aditya G wrote:When commissioned Shivaliks did not have HWT. I dont know if that has been added now.

This missing armament makes Shivalik a destroyer rather than a frigate imho


It was supposed to have provisions for light torpedo launcher no word on whether that was ever fitted after commissioning. Not sure why lack of torpedo tubes will make it a DDG, considering Delhi and Kolkata both also have two twin 533mm torpedo tubes.

Same question marks exist over TAS so I didn't both comparing Sonar either. Regardless we likely to customize that locally for Admiral Grigorivich.

Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 01 Apr 2018 07:32

Types generally depend upon size.Frigates smaller than DDGs, whose size today is the same of erstwhile cruisers.
While the Talwars -and this won't be publicly advertised how silent a warship is, and it will vary at diff.speeds, is a faster warship than a Shivalik tx to its GTs.Costs today for both debatable, we'll know only when they've been completed and delivered by the CAG!

Now for some interesting news.The IN has told the GOI that it has the IOR region covered with at least one warship and given a name to each area of deployment.
There are 7 deployments.
MALDEP....Straits of Malacca.
NORDEP..North Bay of Bengal, Burma, BDesh.
ANDEP.....North Andamans to S.Nicobar.
GULFDEP...North Arabian Sea and approaces to
Straits of Hormuz /Persian Gulf.
POGDEP....Anti-piracy off the Gulf of Aden.
CENDEP.....Waters off South India, Sri Lanka
and the Maldives.

In additon daily LRMP flights are made from INS Rajali at Ark.8 ships of the PLAN were in the IOR at any given time.How many do we have on perm. patrol in the ICS?!
Chinese subs transit the IOR twice a yr.No mention obviously of our sub deployments.

Singha
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2018 11:10

this ship took part in the battle of manila in the spanish-american war. note the complete lack of any superstructure. it is low slung and well armoured like a tortoise.
instead of the uber unobtainium kings ransom mistral and juan carlos types , I propose the following hybrid war remix.

shore bombardment - modern take on this proven relic of the past. 2 x 5in guns in 2 turrets firing long range rounds , high automation, diesel engine only, room for a 2 platoons of marcos, zodiac boats and special gear they might want to use. 2 utility helicopters, 16 barak1 box and 2 x ak630 for self defence. good anti submarine sensors, maybe a HWT launcher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Baltimore_(C-3)#/media/File:Baltimore_(ship,_1890)_-_Brassey%27s_1887.png

shallow draft merchant std Ro-Ro vessels of 2 different sizes
big boy - http://www.shipspotting.com/photos/midd ... 092768.jpg -> the mistral and rotterdam classes are glorified versions of this onlee
https://www.ship-technology.com/wp-cont ... e-03-6.jpg

small boy - http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/s ... design.jpg

diesel engines, long range, comfort for staff and pax, austere weapons and comms.....will be great to hang around off africa and indonesia participating in joint exercises and showing the flag.

thats about all we need given the limited amphibious duties we face. we are not invading australia or sanya.

we can build or buy these on a budget rather quickly. even second hand options are there.

chola
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 02 Apr 2018 03:29

Cross-posting from the chini mil thread:

chola wrote:According to posts on the Paki site:

the 100th and 279th separate naval fighter aircraft regiments of the Northern Fleet aviation of the Russian Navy, whose flights from the deck became impossible due to the only Russian heavy aircraft carrier "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov" being in the repair
...
In view of this, the Russian side appealed to the Ministry of Defense of the PRC with a request to conduct "training" tours of Russian ship pilots on the almost identical Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning for the time of repair of "Admiral Kuznetsov ".
...
Chinese side has responded positively to this request and now detailed negotiations are underway, for which a group of Russian military specialists arrived in China at the beginning of the year. The agreement will be concluded on a commercial basis with the participation of Rosoboronexport. Presumably, Russian pilots will arrive in China in groups of four or six pilots on their planes (Su-33 and MiG-29KR / CUBR) and make a number of take-offs and landings on them on the deck of "Liaoning". The article notes that for both sides this will also be a good way of getting familiarized with the procedures and peculiarities of the actions of ship aviation - even though the Chinese naval aviation "arose from the same nest."


We better plumb the f-ing Russians on PLAN operations to make up for the MiG-29K intel.

The faster we can move on from the MiG-29K, the better.


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