Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5070
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 26 Jul 2017 02:52

Austin wrote:If the Navy can afford to buy 57 Combat Aircraft when they couldnt get passed smaller program via MOD with far less budget then I have a moon to sell.

Neither the Vikrant or IAC wont carry more than 18-20 AC even during best of times , The rest of complement will be ASW Choppers , AEW system and SAR Choppers , The Helicopter numbers will far outclass the fighter component on our Aircraft carrier , The Viraat too never carried more than 12-14 SHAR most of the time it sailed but the fleet of Helicopter was far larger. Indian AC emphasis Fleet Air Defence as much as it does for ASW duties they are primary threat for CBG.

The Navy released the RFI for the 57 fighters because it isn't boneheaded enough to invest $7-8 billion and two decades in its carrier fleet (not to mention the cost of the other elements in the CBG) and then cheap out with an under-strength air complement.

The VikAd & Vikrant are twice the size of the Viraat, and the objective has always been to embark with a standard complement of two fighter squadrons each (i.e. 20-24 MiGs) plus 10 helicopters, hardly an over-ambitious goal.

Meanwhile, the current naval fighter strength is NOT enough to operationally deploy the Vikrant & VikAd with even 18-20 fighters. And while the MiG-29K has fairly decent combat potential today, it is certainly not cutting edge, which means there is no space for trade-offs with respect to numerical strength (especially if it continues to be dogged by availability issues).

With the N-Tejas almost out of the picture, at least in the relevant timeframe, an alternative is required. Also, given that the IN can spread the cost of follow-on MiG-29Ks over a decade or so, the cost can hardly be considered debilitating.

But to come back to your original assertion -

Austin wrote:If they are planing to buy 57 Aircraft which is just a RFI long way from RFP and much longer from any selection or purchase then it would be for the new aircraft carrier only.


The Navy's position has been crystal clear, the acquisition is not about the IAC-2.


As far as the carrier-based aircraft is concerned, we need it in a time line of the induction of the aircraft carrier. We have the MiG 29K, which operates from Vikramaditya and will operate from IAC Vikrant. We were also hoping to operate the LCA from these two aircraft carriers. Unfortunately, the LCA is not being able to meet the carrier’s required capability. That is why we need an alternative aircraft to operate from these two aircraft carriers. If you look around the world, there are not too many options available and we need this carrier capable aircraft sooner than later. So, I am looking at next five-six years. - Adm. Sunil Lamba

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3870
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Jul 2017 07:05

There is no money to buy 126 mmrca fighters, which are desperately needed on cheeni porki fronts, how can money be available for naval fighters when they aren't needed that much?

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5070
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 26 Jul 2017 12:51

Manish_Sharma wrote:There is no money to buy 126 mmrca fighters, which are desperately needed on cheeni porki fronts, how can money be available for naval fighters when they aren't needed that much?

Naval fighters can operate from an IAF base. IAF fighters can't operate from a Navy carrier.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9262
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Jul 2017 15:13

Viv S wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:There is no money to buy 126 mmrca fighters, which are desperately needed on cheeni porki fronts, how can money be available for naval fighters when they aren't needed that much?

Naval fighters can operate from an IAF base. IAF fighters can't operate from a Navy carrier.


Which got me thinking why cant the LCA Navy atleast take over the Jaguar IM role.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5070
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 26 Jul 2017 15:49

Aditya_V wrote:Which got me thinking why cant the LCA Navy atleast take over the Jaguar IM role.

No need for a navalized air frame, the Tejas Mk1A will do. However, a platform like the Su-30 would be much better suited to the naval strike role.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17800
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Jul 2017 17:58

Viv,you're right.Much better design than previous OPVs,more space on either beam for TTs,CIWS,etc.The extra long hangar structure appears to also accommodate the stack.These OPVs could be better refined to house a TAS and MBUs,plus SSMs in a crisis.They could be excellent ASW PVs for "green waters",designed,but not fitted for later augmentation.Similarly,the CG OPVs could be also tasked for some ASW and mine countermeasures capability.
Good to see a pvt. yard start (other than L&T) delivering.The shallow water ASW corvettes planned (16) meant for "brown" waters.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1015
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 27 Jul 2017 01:06

Viv S wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Which got me thinking why cant the LCA Navy atleast take over the Jaguar IM role.

No need for a navalized air frame, the Tejas Mk1A will do. However, a platform like the Su-30 would be much better suited to the naval strike role.


Which in turn begs the question, why have the Su-30 not replaced the Jaguar IM.
Is it because Jags have a better strike power/operating costs as compared to Su30.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3495
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 27 Jul 2017 02:35

Khalsa wrote:
Viv S wrote:No need for a navalized air frame, the Tejas Mk1A will do. However, a platform like the Su-30 would be much better suited to the naval strike role.


Which in turn begs the question, why have the Su-30 not replaced the Jaguar IM.
Is it because Jags have a better strike power/operating costs as compared to Su30.


My guess is simply because the Jaguar IM's service lives were not over. And if they're not over, then why retire perfectly good airframes that can carry the most recent Harpoon AShM that the IAF possesses? They're going to get upgraded as part of the DARIN-III upgrade (as far as I know) and should be able to soldier on for another 10 years at least post that.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 60468
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: Lupine but moderately dharmic

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2017 07:24

other than the 'agave radar' now replaced with EL2032 vs the radarless marconi laser ranger blunt nose Jaguar IS, how did the IM differ ? the pilots wore orange lifejackets for one. rest I am keen to know. I am sure the IS too had the electronics to cart the sea eagle missile.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33926
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 27 Jul 2017 07:32

Khalsa wrote:Which in turn begs the question, why have the Su-30 not replaced the Jaguar IM.
Is it because Jags have a better strike power/operating costs as compared to Su30.

Indian Su 30s are actually optimized for air superiority with a secondary strike role, Jags are good at flying low under the radar and are optimised for that role. They are primarily strike aircraft

Kersi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 24
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kersi » 27 Jul 2017 14:41

Viv S wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Which got me thinking why cant the LCA Navy atleast take over the Jaguar IM role.

No need for a navalized air frame, the Tejas Mk1A will do. However, a platform like the Su-30 would be much better suited to the naval strike role.


SU 30 MKI is equipped with kH 31 anti shipping missiles

jayasimha
BRFite
Posts: 400
Joined: 09 Feb 2011 17:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jayasimha » 27 Jul 2017 15:04

OPEN TENDER NOTICE FOR PROCUREMENT OF QTY 2970 HIGH QUALITY EAR
DEFENDER FOR AVIATION PERSONNEL

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... fender.pdf

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2160
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 27 Jul 2017 19:54

Viv S wrote:
tsarkar wrote:IN solved the problem quite easily regarding DRDO AIP. They allocated last two Scorpenes. However, when AIP program was delayed, they took a decision NOT to delay the Scorpene and proceeded with build minus AIP. Now AIP is proposed for Project 75I.

Why haven't they opted for the DCNS AIP solution (MESMA?) for the last two boats? Its a major planning failure, if that's the case.

MESMA was rejected for lack of sufficient power generation & endurance vis-a-vis bulk.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4107
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jul 2017 06:34

Eight Indian Navy submarines running with single periscope
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20050/ ... XqM1dMrIUQ

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2779
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby prahaar » 28 Jul 2017 12:43

How is the above mentioned delay in periscope approvals any better than selling fake German spare parts?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17800
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 28 Jul 2017 19:10

More on the IN's sub hunt. An interesting titbit about an "undersea wall" from S.India to N.Indonesia to detect enemy subs.http://www.businessinsider.in/India-is- ... 796915.cms

This a huge distance.I would think that it instead is an UW line SOSUS style sensors from the A&N islands to Indonesia instead.That would be ideal and one could install greater numbers. If long-endurance UUVs or even a batch of mini-subs are deployed from the A&N islands,the Malacca chokepoint could be very effectively monitored. With Indo-Indonesian def. cooperation,plus some input from Oz,the straits further south could also be monitored in similar fashion. However, greater forward deployment of assets and infrastructure build up in Lakshadweep.If you look at the group of islands on the map,one will see that they too are ideal for a SOSUS style UW sensor barrier,that could link the islands together to Minicoy the southernmost.

The story of how we got the islands.Once again,Hats off to the great Sardar Patel! The princely states,Hyderabad,etc.,he was the true visionary of a grand greater India to do justice to our ancient forbears and boundaries of Maha Bharat.

The Indian Navy has deployed detachments to the Lakshadweep Islands since independence. The Lakshadweep islands were a part of the Madras Presidency under the British Raj and in accordance with the Indian Independence Act 1947, enacted by the British parliament, the islands were transferred to the new Union of India. Though the Madras Presidency had an overwhelming Hindu majority, the islands had a Muslim majority. Hence, it seemed possible that the new dominion of Pakistan might seek to lay claim to the islands. On the orders of Vallabhbhai Patel, the first Home Minister and Deputy Prime Minister of India, a ship of the Royal Indian Navy was sent to the islands to hoist the Indian national flag and ensure the islands' integration into the Union of India. Hours after the arrival of the Indian ship, vessels of the Royal Pakistan Navy were seen near the islands, but after observing Indian naval presence they returned to Karachi. :rotfl:


PS:Since the islands appear to be grouped rather close together,an ambitious project could be undertaken to link some of them and using eco-friendly land reclamation techniques,we could create a huge entity in much the same way that SPore has extended its own territory and go even further than what the Chins are doing in the Indo-China Sea. Unlike the A&N islands,which have tropical rainforests,highly sensitive to development and under v.strict rules,these islands are in the same category as the Maldives and Chagos islands (DG). The islands could be turned into a tourist paradise and offshore commercial centre as well.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3340
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 28 Jul 2017 19:53

Sputnik news?? For a moment I thought the were sharing one periscope. :)

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1729
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2017 20:22

Cosmo_R wrote:Sputnik news?? For a moment I thought the were sharing one periscope. :)



Lol. That was my first thought. Badly worded headline.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1729
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2017 20:29

From the NOPV story:

Late last month, RDEL delivered a 73 500 DWT ice-class Panamax bulk carrier ‘Golden Opal’, its ninth vessel, to an international customer. The nine vessels are the largest dry bulk carriers of its class ever built by an Indian shipyard.


Not saying they are equivalent but the ability of RDEL to build these massive vessels at the very least means they have dock space and logistics in place to build carriers. So instead of relying only CSL for our carrier program, let the private sector offer some competition for probably the most prestigeous project our a country can offer.

(Yes, I know about reports that IN won't get another carrier in 15 years but Admirals will go ask MoD every year so anything could happen.)

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2160
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 29 Jul 2017 00:53

^^ Nikhil & Bhavesh Gandhi are pioneering enterpreneurs like Walchand Hirachand. The brothers built India's largest shipyard at Pipavav. GoI won't admit it to save PSU H&D.

http://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/fe ... /2517.html

One day in the early 1990s, Nikhil Prataprai Gandhi was almost beaten to death by a mob protesting against the development of a port at Pipavav in Gujarat. The port was conceptualised in 1990 by SKIL Infrastructure, a company Gandhi founded with younger brother Bhavesh. Gandhi was badly wounded in that attack. After he came out of hospital, he visited Shirdi in Maharashtra to offer prayers at Saibaba’s shrine. In Shirdi, he befriended a Saibaba follower who, in 1992, introduced Gandhi to the late Dhirubhai Ambani, founder of the Reliance group. That meeting changed his life. “If Dhirubhai uncle had not helped me, I would have been dead,” says Gandhi. Ambani taught Gandhi the virtues of identifying growth-oriented ventures ahead of their time, and executing them on time. The Reliance patriarch would joke that Gandhi was a member of the “zero club”, which meant that he had only one way to go—up.

Gandhi does have a track record though, but the details are a bit sketchy. After building India’s first private all-weather seaport in the mid-nineties, he went on to notch another first: a 50:50 joint venture with Indian Railways to run container trains over 260 km between the Pipavav port and the Saurashtra region. He also constructed a 20-km, four-lane road connecting the port with the Gujarat state highway. Total investment in these three projects amounted to nearly $500 million. Then one fine day in 2005, Gandhi sold the port to a consortium led by Maersk/A.P. Moller; the rail JV has been transferred to the Railways and the expressway to the Gujarat government.

The man who dreamt of setting up a port when working as a trustee at the Bombay Port Trust has come a long way. In those days it took 12-16 days from preberthing to loading/unloading a ship. Gandhi was thinking way ahead—of building a port on the lines of those that exist in Singapore or Hong Kong, with a turnaround time of less than a day.

Now he’s taking a couple of giant steps forward. Gandhi will soon start building ships at a shipyard at Pipavav, which he says will be the world’s second-largest, and India’s largest. Pipavav Shipyard Ltd (PSL) is expected to deliver its first ship next year, and the company claims to have orders worth Rs 5,200 crore in the bag. An insider at the SKIL group reveals that Gandhi plans to go beyond building ships, into ship-repair and servicing, as well as building oil rigs. He has been successful in catching the eye of some prominent investors.


The beauty of India is that someone somewhere is working hard and creates something magnificent. Sadly GoI isn't giving them sufficient orders that would result in 1. Made in India and 2. Employment Generation. Personally I would rather order more ATV/Project 17A/Project 15B/Type 28 at multiple yards simply for employment generation, skill development and fingering China.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10736
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 29 Jul 2017 05:15

Pipavav Shipyard went bust and the Navy's NOPV were half built
Only two (that were launched today) were half built when the company went bust - could not pay salaries and the construction was stopped, the program was delayed.
The Navy initiated proceedings to take the company to court over this.

Reliance stepped in and bought the port, and restarted the NOPV building. They held talks with the IN and asked for an extension of the delivery timeline.
These two NOPVs are launched today, have been in the water, half completed for about two years or so. The rest are building inside a huge factory about 1.5 Km from the port, with sections brought in to the drydock and assembled.

(Pipavav) Reliance Defence & Engineering LTD shipyard has the largest drydock in India measuring 65x640m and can handle ships upto 400,000 Tons in it.
Reliance has signed a deal with the US Navy 7th fleet to service their ships at this dockyard.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 689
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nash » 29 Jul 2017 18:59

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins- ... 13849.html

Rs 75,000 cr deal: Navy carries out simulation trials of new aircraft for INS Vikramaditya, Indigenous Aircraft Carrier

nam
BRFite
Posts: 539
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 29 Jul 2017 20:26

Just googled around for the NOPV story. Reliance took over at the start of 2016, when the 2 boats were 15% build and no work on other three.

They promised to launch the first 2 in May 17( to be delivered by dec 17) and other three by Nov 17(to be delivered by aug 18). In feb they were 65% on 1st two and 30% on the remaining three. Workers working in 3 shifts.

They have launched first 2 by July 17.

If they managed to deliver all 5 even by Nov 18, i.e. in under 3 years they would have delivered 10k tons! for a company which went bankrupt.

Our PSU takes 8-10 years to deliver 8k tons destroyers.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1729
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2017 20:29

nam wrote:Just googled around for the NOPV story. Reliance took over at the start of 2016, when the 2 boats were 15% build and no work on other three.

They promised to launch the first 2 in May 17( to be delivered by dec 17) and other three by Nov 17(to be delivered by aug 18). In feb they were 65% on 1st two and 30% on the remaining three. Workers working in 3 shifts.

They have launched first 2 by July 17.

If they managed to deliver all 5 even by Nov 18, i.e. in under 3 years they would have delivered 10k tons! for a company which went bankrupt.

Our PSU takes 8-10 years to deliver 8k tons destroyers.


That is the difference between free enterprise and commie practices.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 539
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 29 Jul 2017 20:47

Hope GoI hands over some large ship building contracts to private shipyard. This is the only way to build a world class ship building and compete with Koreans and Chinese.

A very simple way to prevent commie blowbacks in PSU yards is to put them under "classified projects".

GoI can always deny any such project was given!

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 29 Jul 2017 21:35

nash wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins-vikramaditya-indigenous-aircraft-carrier-new-aircraft-navy/1/1013849.html

Rs 75,000 cr deal: Navy carries out simulation trials of new aircraft for INS Vikramaditya, Indigenous Aircraft Carrier


F-35 is not in contention?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19902
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 29 Jul 2017 21:40

nash wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins-vikramaditya-indigenous-aircraft-carrier-new-aircraft-navy/1/1013849.html

Rs 75,000 cr deal: Navy carries out simulation trials of new aircraft for INS Vikramaditya, Indigenous Aircraft Carrier


Seriously , 75K translates to more than $11 billion for 57 aircraft , Thats the kind of money that is more than two times of the current fleet cost if Vikram its air component , choppers plus IAC cost.

The Navy can spend 1/3 of that money to fix Naval Tejas and buy more than double the number of N-Tejas and still buy one more IAC

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sankum » 29 Jul 2017 23:48

Will that kind of money will be spared is doubtful.

36nos fighters will be more than enough.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5070
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 30 Jul 2017 00:18

abhik wrote:F-35 is not in contention?

Nope. Didn't respond to the RFI. LM were all pumped up about the original RFI issued by the IN back in 2010 and readying ramp launch simulations for the F-35C.

I'm assuming the sims didn't pan out - the C was perhaps too heavy and/or integrating the support systems with the IAC's Russian-built aviation complex was a barrier.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5849
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 30 Jul 2017 01:27

nam wrote:Our PSU takes 8-10 years to deliver 8k tons destroyers.

Is that true? How many tons has MDL put out in the last 7-8 years? How about horribly lethargic GRSE, or GSL for that matter?

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3271
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 30 Jul 2017 15:18

IN's experience with private shipyards has not been the best unfortuntely. 3 key contracts got stuck:

05 NOPV Project-21 @ Pipavav: Now being progressed
02 CTS @ ABG: Limbo
06 Survey ships @ Alcock (technically PSU - a Gujarat state company): Limbo

nam
BRFite
Posts: 539
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 30 Jul 2017 15:39

Indranil wrote:
nam wrote:Our PSU takes 8-10 years to deliver 8k tons destroyers.

Is that true? How many tons has MDL put out in the last 7-8 years? How about horribly lethargic GRSE, or GSL for that matter?


Was talking about the history of Kolkatta class at MDL, the time they started to delivery. or the P17s.

Will have to be seen how they do with P15B and P17A. Since they are suppose to be modular.

Experience with privates yards is ofcourse debatable. We will have to see if RDEL keeps up with their promise. Atleast the July launch is encouraging. Delayed by 2 months, for a company which was in doldrums.

schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1250
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby schinnas » 30 Jul 2017 16:04

Gagan wrote:Pipavav Shipyard went bust and the Navy's NOPV were half built
Only two (that were launched today) were half built when the company went bust - could not pay salaries and the construction was stopped, the program was delayed.
The Navy initiated proceedings to take the company to court over this.

Reliance stepped in and bought the port, and restarted the NOPV building. They held talks with the IN and asked for an extension of the delivery timeline.
These two NOPVs are launched today, have been in the water, half completed for about two years or so. The rest are building inside a huge factory about 1.5 Km from the port, with sections brought in to the drydock and assembled.

(Pipavav) Reliance Defence & Engineering LTD shipyard has the largest drydock in India measuring 65x640m and can handle ships upto 400,000 Tons in it.
Reliance has signed a deal with the US Navy 7th fleet to service their ships at this dockyard.


Just like automobile industry, where Indian manufacturing has taken off, shipbuilding could be next. But key is Government developing private shipyards with several large sized long term orders so private players ramp up effort and investment.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7528
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 30 Jul 2017 16:23

May be the P 15 can be sourced to pvt yards in addition to the MDL while increasing the orders to 20 plus units.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2160
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 30 Jul 2017 16:29

For some reason not apparent to me, DND does not provide design consultancy to private shipyards. The private shipyards have to scrounge around with design bureaus around the world. They lack skills & experience to validate or test the designs - that results in cost overruns that unlike PSU's they're unable to pass to GoI/MoD

Pipavav used a Russian designs for the OPV that had flaws that bankrupted the company trying to rectify.

Their civil 3 offshore support vessels and 5 75,000 tonne bulk carriers designed by commercial western bureaus were built well in time.

Same for Alcock Ashdown that used an Australian design for survey catamarans. Please note AA is owned by Gujarat Govt & hence PSU.

HSL too faced design issues with Rani Abbakka class IPV for same reason. Here is the degree of completion at her launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK_bXEkvoMs that you may compare with Shachi & Shruti.

Cochin Shipyard used a local designer SEDS that surprisinhttp://www.marinedesigners.com ... vessel/gly turned out a good design

http://www.marinedesigners.com/new/proj ... -vessel-2/

In the design part of the menu, check the iterations of design. That will give folks an idea of the complexity of work.

BTW here are their design submissions for ASW-SWC -

http://www.marinedesigners.com/new/proj ... s/asw-swc/

Image

This shows Browning M2HB machine guns instead of OFB Prahari NSV and 57mm Bofors :shock:

Fleet Support Ship

http://www.marinedesigners.com/new/proj ... port-ship/

Image

This one shows obsolete AK-276 gun mounts. Though nothing beats the F-15 on Project 71 like Cochin Shipyard adverts for its IPO :rotfl:

http://www.marinedesigners.com/new/proj ... le-vessel/

Next Generation Missile Vessels (NGMVs) are planned class of anti-surface warfare Corvettes for the Indian navy. Under this programme Indian navy intends to acquire 6 advanced missile Corvettes. Ships in this class will be armed with anti-ship or land attack missiles like Brahmos or Nirbhay. Ships under this class will feature advanced stealth features like low Radar Cross Section (RCS), Infrared, Acoustic and magnetic signature.


Statutory Disclaimer - Concepts of ship & aircraft - like Concept Cars - look very futuristic unlike real life.
Last edited by tsarkar on 30 Jul 2017 16:34, edited 1 time in total.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15937
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2017 16:30

Indranil wrote:
nam wrote:Our PSU takes 8-10 years to deliver 8k tons destroyers.

Is that true? How many tons has MDL put out in the last 7-8 years? How about horribly lethargic GRSE, or GSL for that matter?


are such esoteric metrics even worth the paper that they are written upon??

what's next?? the number of anchor chain links/year delivered, in comparison with some korean yard??

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15937
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2017 17:45

@tsarkar ji

plenty of ex IN constructors, previously involved in design duties have joined these private companies after retirement. Very handsome salary packages too, I hear.

As have a great many dockyard experienced ex IN personnel too.

Reliance, particularly, has never been shy about actively "liberating" required "talent" from anywhere in India.

So these guys are not lacking in any input requirements/capabilities concerning design.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3271
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 30 Jul 2017 19:27

The SEDS design for SWC is very similar to Visby class Corvette.

The placement of ASW mortars seems strange unless the intention is only self defence against torpedoes. Surely a submarine chaser captain will want to fire ahead?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15937
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2017 19:29

Aditya G wrote:The SEDS design for SWC is very similar to Visby class Corvette.

The placement of ASW mortars seems strange unless the intention is only self defence against torpedoes. Surely a submarine chaser captain will want to fire ahead?


and over run his own lethal depth charges?? :)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4107
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2017 21:19

India's coast guard has made a record-breaking 1.5 tonne heroin bust worth $500 million
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-indi ... ust-2017-7


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ashthor, chiru, Jaeger, L Ram, srinebula and 41 guests