Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 21 Jan 2018 21:18

As a counter, look at Russia.No great eco boom there (!), but very prudent debt policy, one of the lowest in the world
Yet, through very careful management and sustained focus and effort, it has increased production of almost all weapon systems, introducing cutting edge tech in N-subs, missiles, AVs and aircraft. with some very innovative systems like the upgraded Borei and Yasen N-subs, the long range high speed nuclear torpedo, Armata AVs, the SU-35, 57 and stealth bomber to come.
Blackjack production and upgraded IL- 476 and MI-26T heavy transport/helos are in production.S-500 SAMs and a host of new missiles/ munitions being introduced.

We have a lot to learn from the way in which Putin has resurrected the Russian military after its steep decline after the demise of the USSR and its grand successes in regaining the Crimea , seizing the Georgian enclaves (Abkhaz and S.Ossetia) earlier and victory over ISIS and anti- Syrian rebel forces in Syria.The clearsighted vision of Russian defence planners must be compared with the symbolic efforts of the MOD over the last decade, particularly under UPA rule.Thd silver lining has been the steady and spectacular progress in our strat. missile deterrent, ISRO's stunning achievements and naval indigenisation, though delays have somewhat blunted the admirable effort .

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2018 04:32

India's Third Aircraft Carrier Is Most Likely a Waste of Money
http://warisboring.com/indias-third-air ... -of-money/

'Vishal' makes more sense as a jobs program.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SNaik » 23 Jan 2018 18:12

Singha wrote:Er chola the vikrant consultant was fincanrieti who only built the small cavour and lhd ships

But the design of the aviation part was outsourced to Russian Nevsky PKB.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2018 18:29

A rather scornful piece about the IN's carrier capabilities quite forgetting how the little Vikrant with its antique Seahawks bottled up the Pakis in the east in striking at C'gong and Cix's Bazaar apart from sinking numerous ships and rivercraft preventing any Paki version of Dunkirk!

The modest number of IN MIG29Ks, 40+ are quite adequate armed with 2 ASMs each to sink the entire Paki surface fleet, annihilate Gwadar and set Karachi ablaze as was done in '71.Coordinated IN LR (800km) BMos and carrier air strikes, which in the future will also carry 2 BMos- NG 300km ASMs, could destroy the Paki navy in a matter of minutes, minus its subs.With buddy refuelling, the launch range of the 29Ks could be well outside any PAF threat and IAF MKIs are certain to play their tunes to add to the crescendo of martial music.

Even without any carriers, equipped with MR maritime strike Backfires and supported by MKIs, operating from our unsinkable subcontinent and islands,any PLAN CBG ingressing into the IOR would have to do so very south indeed , or sail in "harm's way".The max fighter numbers a PLAN CV could carry would be approx 40 ( same number on our two CVs)which would be overwhelmed by the hundreds of IAF land based aircraft pitted against it.We will have close on to around 30MKIs alone, 40 initially BMos capable and the enemy carrier task force would also have to deal with 800km BMos missiles in the future.Once BMos-H arrives only a very courageous for would send in a CBG into the IOR to joust with us.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 23 Jan 2018 19:37

Rakesh wrote:India's Third Aircraft Carrier Is Most Likely a Waste of Money
http://warisboring.com/indias-third-air ... -of-money/

'Vishal' makes more sense as a jobs program.


Of course... unless India buys Americana gear (EMALs, F18s) in which case it magically transforms into a very sensible jobs-for-americans program

:roll:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SiddharthS » 23 Jan 2018 20:56

SiddharthS wrote:China was a military power way before anything interesting on the economic front was going on. The difference now is that it has become both military and economic superpower. And don't forget, MIC is a part of economic growth story.
You have to first secure the polity. It's not just the matter of more money(although that's important) but how money is spent, is it spent on R&D or is it spent on upkeeping the legacy systems & structures. Is the AC priority or should we build more indigenous nuclear attack submarines.
I'd wager we need more SSN's. With the invention of new technologies AC can only be used for peacetime domination, unless one has the money to spent on a carrier battle group and still it'd be vulnerable. Peacetime domination is important, but after needling the country in a peacetime one has to walk the talk and for that your need SSN's and SSBN's.
Just to give you an analogy, AC is like a jab to keep your opponent unsettled and SSN's and SSBN's is like a knock-out punch to keep him at bay and make him wary of responding to your peacetime domination.


In short, two jabs are enough for now , we need more knock-out punches.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sum » 24 Jan 2018 06:02

From Ravi Rikhaye ( Orbat) Twitter:
Ajai Shukla reports India's naval Tejas is in a coma because the Navy doesn't want it. The MiG-29 is unsuccessful. An expert tells us - without giving classified figures - that Naval Aviation is in horrible shape bar the P-8s http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/ Ed needs chocolate to calm him

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2018 02:58

X-posting from the China thread in Strat Forum

SSridhar wrote:China a disruptive power: Quad nations navy chiefs - ToI

Naval chiefs of Quadrilateral nations - India, US, Australia Japan - on Thursday called China "a disruptive power" as they pushed for a new regional security architecture to face up to Beijing's aggressive designs.

"China is a disruptive, transitional force in the Indo-Pacific," US Pacific Commander Admiral Harry Harris said on the concluding day of Raisina Dialogue as he shared the dais with Indian navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba, Australian navy Chief Vice Admiral Tim Barret and Admiral Katsutoshi Kawano, chief of staff, joint staff, Japan. For the first time, diplomatic representative from Indonesia was also present to dispel any impression that the 'Quad' was ganging up against China.

"We must be willing to take tough decisions in 2018 against unilateral ways to change the use of global commons with rule-based freedom of navigation," Harris said, his views finding echo in his counterparts from the other three countries of the 4-nation grouping.

Admiral Sunil Lanba said China's navy had made big changes to its deployment patterns in waters around India. "They have a base in Djibouti. They have developed a port in Hambantota (Sri Lanka) though we have been told there will be no (permanent) presence (of the Chinese navy) there," he said. China, he said, is "developing ports and infrastructure that are not viable". [b]Japan's Admiral Katsutoshi Kawano was more forthright. "China's military power is becoming more powerful and is expanding. In the East and South China Seas, China has been ignoring international law. In order to deter Chinese provocations, India, the US, Australia and Japan have to cooperate with one another," he said.

Foreign secretary S Jaishankar though said China has been a "motivator and example" for India in some ways. "People think if China can do that why can't we. To some extent, China has opened up the international order allowing India to make its presence felt. Its rise has many facets to it," Jaishankar told the gathering, adding India would have to step up and play a better game.

"What we are seeing right now is not just the rise of a global power but a very different power. Also, whether that power would be a model to others is an open question," he said. In the current global system of uncertainty, India, he said, is part of the "solution". He said India had "committed around $25-30 billion in credits and grants in our extended neighbourhood, from East Africa to South East Asia".



Admiral Sunil Lanba is violating a dictum that Admiral Andrew Cunningham, once said "Naming enemies, creates enemies!" This is a quote from Adm S.N. Kohli's book.

I know he wants to have a cooperative fleet with USN and the other two powers but no need to name enemies.

IN threat is already muddied in Arabian Sea and Western Indian Ocean by Diego Garcia, French fleet at Resolution and the so called anti piracy operations there. So one more from PLAN wont add new threat but only increase it.
One way is to crack down on anti-piracy and make the Arabian Sea safe for all shipping.

Also don't forget RAN suspended cooperation in the mid 1960s as part of the Commonwealth crackdown. RN, RAN and RNZN all three dropped cooperation. In fact RAN gathered sonar data from INS Mysore as it was returning from a courtesy visit from Japan(?). This means they were gathering targeting data for their torpedoes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 25 Jan 2018 05:51

sum wrote:From Ravi Rikhaye ( Orbat) Twitter:
Ajai Shukla reports India's naval Tejas is in a coma because the Navy doesn't want it. The MiG-29 is unsuccessful. An expert tells us - without giving classified figures - that Naval Aviation is in horrible shape bar the P-8s http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/ Ed needs chocolate to calm him

After public rejection by the IN of both Mk1 and Mk2, N-LCA is being treated as a step child by ADA/HAL. Hard to see an indigenous naval fighter being developed in India after this fiasco. The IN is heading towards the import route for its naval aviation needs. They know how to design and build ships but can’t be said the same for aviation.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 25 Jan 2018 19:55

OZ has always had an inferiority complex with India.It's too long a story but going back to the days of '65, the West in general wrote off India as a backward country , riddled with casteism, paganistic religious rituals,no fighting spirit ( read defeat by China in '62 and Nehru's dramatic SOS to the US pleading for arms, etc.), pally with Commie USSR, etc.In other words a lost cause sliding into backwardness after being the brightest jewel in the British imperial crown.

The nation they pinned their hopes on was martial Pakistan.Excellent military officers trained at Sandhurst, knowing how to drink their pegs of whisky despite being Muslims, a very westernized feudal elite- good looking too! CENTO member Pak was the bees knees for them.Nehru was a shadow of himself after '62, seriously ill and succeeded by a frail , small chappie who looked more like a houseboy rather than a PM! But what OZ was more worried about was Muslim Indonesia which was a threat to OZ.The chummy relationship between Pak and Indonesia troubled them which also has a military dimension in '65.

The US, UK and West expected Pak to win.I know for a fact that OZ did give us some help becos of the Paki-Indonesia angle.But this positive attitude receded as OZ got enmeshed in Vietnam too and tilted heavily in the direction of the US.India and Indira were public enemies of the Nixon- Kissinger admin in the '70s. India going nuclear later on was the huge envy of OZ and our steady growth as a military power under Mrs.G, later Rajiv and then P-2 thanks to ABV ,saw us increase the distance between OZ as the dominant power in the IOR.

Fortunately, the wheel has again turned.OZ looks at us today as the key regional maritime power that can stop China in the IOR , no longer an enemy of the West though we never considered the West in general as such,other than incomprehension as to how it could still trust duplicitous Pak.The IN today is the great western hope that will keep the IOR open to maritime trade and counter the PLAN's plans of Asia-Pacific maritime dominance and the feku "maritime silk road" in the IOR, actually its " string of pearls " strategy of IOR take-away.

The Chinese have dramatically thrown their mil.ambitions heavily behind the PLAN.They have the most massive naval build up in history akin to the German rearmament that Hitler pursued.5-6 large carriers accompanied by dozens of capital ships , escorts and almost 100 subs will be our challenge by 2030.The PLAN will be the world's second largest navy with only the US more potent by then.The GOI needs to dramatically increase the IN's budget proportionate to the Chin build up, so that the IN has the war material at sea to defeat thd nefarious designs of the PRC and continue to dominate the IOR our backwaters.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 25 Jan 2018 20:18

Philip wrote:
The Chinese have dramatically thrown their mil.ambitions heavily behind the PLAN.They have the most massive naval build up in history akin to the German rearmament that Hitler pursued.5-6 large carriers accompanied by dozens of capital ships , escorts and almost 100 subs will be our challenge by 2030.The PLAN will be the world's second largest navy with only the US more potent by then.The GOI needs to dramatically increase the IN's budget proportionate to the Chin build up, so that the IN has the war material at sea to defeat thd nefarious designs of the PRC and continue to dominate the IOR our backwaters.


the PLAN will be the largest navy in 2030 by current projections . They will definitely station a carrier force in the Indian Ocean permanently on a rotation basis by then. Not to mention their subs and ocean surveillance systems. Lets see how the IN can hold off that threat ..they are still deciding which to prioritise ..subs or aircraft carriers ? .. i would say they need both.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Jan 2018 21:59

srai wrote:
sum wrote:From Ravi Rikhaye ( Orbat) Twitter:

After public rejection by the IN of both Mk1 and Mk2, N-LCA is being treated as a step child by ADA/HAL. Hard to see an indigenous naval fighter being developed in India after this fiasco. The IN is heading towards the import route for its naval aviation needs. They know how to design and build ships but can’t be said the same for aviation.


Ravi Rikhaye is a bleddy fool.

After well known aviation and engine fiascos, coupled with massive time over runs, forget the money, does this ass expect the IN to develop it's own carrier based fighter and also a mil fighter engine??

Be very grateful that we have an IN capable of warship design as well as production through captive and well nurtured PSUs. Not many navies the world over have such capabilities and that too, home brewed!!.

AFAIK, the IN has not withdrawn financial support to the LCA project.

The IN project support team is still onsite.

The IN has other fish to fry, not wait around endlessly, like an eternal bridesmaid.

Let the LCA come when it does. It may or may not.

In the meanwhile, no sense in closing off any other options and landing in the schitt.
Last edited by chetak on 25 Jan 2018 22:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 25 Jan 2018 22:03

Oz , khan, indonesia can at best help us with surveillance data

Khan can help with mq4c naval surveillance and beefing up our p8i sensor fit

But really we need to build more ships and subs and arm with domestic systems to max and only we can do that

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 25 Jan 2018 22:59

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default/files/tender_document/TENDERDOCUMENTS1TO9.pdf

Tender for SUPPLY PARALLEL BARS OF VARIOUS SIZES WITH ACCURACY 100 MICRONS” FOR UPGRADATION
OF PERISCOPE REPAIR BAY AT WEAPON DEPARTMENT AT ND (V)

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default/files/tender_document/RFP%20forModernisation%20of%20Facilities%20at%20Naval%20Dockyards%20%26%20Ship%20Repair%20yards.pdf

RFP for modernisation of naval dockyards and naval ship repair yards

Looks like navy is for some big augmentation..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rishi_Tri » 25 Jan 2018 23:13

Manish_P wrote:
Rakesh wrote:India's Third Aircraft Carrier Is Most Likely a Waste of Money
http://warisboring.com/indias-third-air ... -of-money/



Of course... unless India buys Americana gear (EMALs, F18s) in which case it magically transforms into a very sensible jobs-for-americans program

:roll:


Yes. Place the order and the journos shall erupt in ecstasy. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 25 Jan 2018 23:47

chetak wrote:
srai wrote:Be very grateful that we have an IN capable of warship design as well as production through captive and well nurtured PSUs. Not many navies the world over have such capabilities and that too, home brewed!!.
.


Would like to put 2 lines i came across..

Long ago some eqpt. was contracted to be built by BEL, Bangalore. One navy guy was posted to BEL.
The eqpt was not coming up on time. The navy guy checked with authorities they told delay was due to purchase dept. then went ahead and came to know that the delay was due in some ancillary unit which has not supplied the required component. He took the details of that ancillary unit went there and sat in the owners chair in owners cabin at that ancillary unit and started to get update every hour. Navy guy even told the owner that if still it does not work I will come to your house and occupy a suitable place which u dont expect me to tell now. U can imagine how the owner/workers got pissed off. The eqpt came with only marginal delay.

Imagine when that same guy comes back as cmd of that PSU in later years..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Jan 2018 05:20

Singha wrote:Oz , khan, indonesia can at best help us with surveillance data

Khan can help with mq4c naval surveillance and beefing up our p8i sensor fit

But really we need to build more ships and subs and arm with domestic systems to max and only we can do that


---------------------
Lt Gen(R) S.K. Sinha writes in his biography that Lord Mountbatten the then Chief of Defence Staff once came to Imperial Defense College when he was student there. Among his remarks said he asked his father the First Sea Lord, " what was the secret of the Royal navy?
Pat came the reply its size. The Royal Navy was the largest navy of that time."
---------------

Numbers have their own quality. So you are right.


One of the goals of IN was 150 ships navy.

Don't know where it is now.

I think the N-LCA will come give it more time as it needs weight optimization and money has to be allocated.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 26 Jan 2018 05:40

^^^
There was no need to publicly reject N-LCA (both variants Mk1 and Mk2) in order to get its 57 imported fighters. That was the wrong way to go about it. Designers and manufactures won't have too much interest in developing N-LCA further with full exuberance. Navy only provides a part of the R&D share and personnel. Rest comes from DRDO/ADA, HAL and various other industrial partners.

Message is basically "Keep building it but we don't want it actually!". Hard to see how people can be motivated to give it their best.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 27 Jan 2018 14:40

Rishi_Tri wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
Of course... unless India buys Americana gear (EMALs, F18s) in which case it magically transforms into a very sensible jobs-for-americans program

:roll:


Yes. Place the order and the journos shall erupt in ecstasy. :rotfl:



So will I. The two STOBARs we currently have are not the vision that the IN has for our future. Our future in naval air is a sixty-five thousand ton CATOBAR.

The catapult will be but a small percentage of the work on the largest warship by FAR when we build it. It will provide jobs for thousands upon thousands of Indians.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 27 Jan 2018 22:57

Our future must also be based upon our budget.Plus misguided priorities of acquiring white elephants , carriers, which are becoming increasingly vulnerable to subs both AIP and N-subs, equipped with LR sub- launched missiles like BMos, Kalibir,Klub and other LRCMs, out of reach of ASW weaponrry of surface ships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 29 Jan 2018 15:34

https://twitter.com/FalklandsinUK/statu ... 5682416640

our sailors have landed in port stanley, falkland islands after 41 days sailing along the south pacific "roaring forties" and "furious fifties" past cape horn (shudder) ... greeted warmly by the UK governor and staff.

these ladies will surely have some good sea yarns to tell the grandkids in due time. of lord cthulhu asleep in the moss covered island of ryleh deep in the southern oceans...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 29 Jan 2018 17:14

Philip wrote:Our future must also be based upon our budget.Plus misguided priorities of acquiring white elephants , carriers, which are becoming increasingly vulnerable to subs both AIP and N-subs, equipped with LR sub- launched missiles like BMos, Kalibir,Klub and other LRCMs, out of reach of ASW weaponrry of surface ships.


why do you think China is building and deploying 4 of 65+ k ton carriers by 2030 and the US on a building/ ordering spree of two digits ?

Hyper/supersonic carrier killers are here but so were so many anticarrier weapons .. antimissile tech will develop to that point thats all.

By the way a very similar view point .. did main battle tanks die off ? .. even America is building a brand new version !

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 29 Jan 2018 17:48

Again, the lag time is so long that we need a plan that can span decades and allow us to begin design, research and construction for budgets in the future not just what we have now.

If we wait until we have the budget in say 10 years to begin the CATOBAR then it would mean another 15 for that ship to be built and inducted. You are talking about 2045. And what about all the other things that needed for a carrier?

http://www.freepressjournal.in/world/china-developing-spy-plane-to-operate-from-aircraft-carrier/1211084
State media confirmed for the first time on Monday that China was building its first carrier-borne early-warning plane (AWCS) called the KJ-600


The chinis have a clear plan and budget. This allows them to begin developing carrier-borne AEW, electro-magnetic catapults and all the million one things that go into carrier ops. It enhances their MIC and create untold thousands of jobs.

We have no plan.

Or rather we have a far-sighted plan from our Navy but no plan from the MoD to fund it. We are watching, with eyes wide open, the eclipse of our carrier force, once the greatest in the world outside the West.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 30 Jan 2018 04:11

^^^"We have no plan"

Or PLAN for that matter. Actually we have no military goal or objective except for 'defending' against 'any attack' and 'giving befitting reply'. This stems from not having a strategic political doctrine. Lots of rhetoric but no implementable steps.

Hence we try to have a little bit of everything.

I'd call it the chutney manifesto—spread yourself very thin but cover the bases.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 30 Jan 2018 04:26

^^^
True.

It’s been some 40-years since the Type-1500 were acquired with ToT from the Germans. No indigenous SSK design came out of that!

Scorpene has been acquired with ToT and being built over the last decade. Still no indigenous SSK design!

Next is this even bigger budgeted P-75I with ToT. Another 10-15 years will go by.

Will India ever learn to build its own SSK?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rishi_Tri » 30 Jan 2018 05:13



Of late a number of these 'Make in India' reports have come out. None of these talk about building our own capability or building on the experience already gained. Only about X value and foreign collaborator not being identified.

I am completely at sea here, but we find ourselves capable of designing nuclear subs (with help wherever needed) but not of designing conventional submarines.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2018 05:34

chola wrote:If we wait until we have the budget in say 10 years to begin the CATOBAR then it would mean another 15 for that ship to be built and inducted. You are talking about 2045. And what about all the other things that needed for a carrier?

Chola, a CATOBAR (like the Nimitz, Gerald Ford and Charles De Gaulle Class) can only be fully exploited if;

1) She must be nuclear powered. Not happening right now because of the MoD.
2) The bold part of your statement is equally important for a CATOBAR. You need all the support equipment in place. Otherwise a CATOBAR vessel is a royal waste of money. Same, even for a ski jump type vessel. No vessel of that size operates alone. You are practically asking for it to get sunk. You might as well put a sign on her, which states SINK ME.

To maintain our aircraft carrier building experience (which is VERY important), the following must be done;

a) Make the third vessel (Vishaal) a larger ski jump type vessel. Around 55,000 tons.
b) Make the lifts of the Vishaal to fit every naval fighter out there --> F-35, Rafale M, F-18E/F, etc.
c) Lay the keel now and she will be ready for carrier ops by 2030. Retire the Vikramaditya at that time.
d) By 2030, the IN will have two new, Indian designed and built aircraft carriers - Vikrant and Vishaal.
d) Have the IN and DAE work together to design & develop a reactor for a nuclear powered aircraft carrier.
e) Lay the keel for a 75,000 - 85,000 ton vessel in 2025 and she will be ready for carrier ops in the late 2030s. Our first nuclear powered aircraft carrier. Expect nothing short of 15 years.

Successive govts have wasted enough time already. No more time to waste.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2018 05:36

Rishi_Tri wrote:


Of late a number of these 'Make in India' reports have come out. None of these talk about building our own capability or building on the experience already gained. Only about X value and foreign collaborator not being identified.

I am completely at sea here, but we find ourselves capable of designing nuclear subs (with help wherever needed) but not of designing conventional submarines.

The plan was to build six Project 75 (Scorpene Class) + six Project 75I (yet to be decided) boats. The lessons learnt from both those boats, would be incorporated into an Indian designed boat. Obviously not happening. Follow on Scorpenes, seems likely unlikely. Neither is the Shortfin Barracuda (the Australian boat from DCNS).

That leaves the HDW Type 214 (reliability issues), the Russian Amur (major design issues) and Saab's A26 (vaporware just like Gripen E). Not a good situation to be in. The Soryu was perfect, but the Japanese are refusing to participate in the competition. The only way out, would be to start off on an Indian designed boat --> with USHUS sonar, 24 - 36 VLS plug of BrahMos-ER, Varunastra torpedoes, etc.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 30 Jan 2018 06:22

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:If we wait until we have the budget in say 10 years to begin the CATOBAR then it would mean another 15 for that ship to be built and inducted. You are talking about 2045. And what about all the other things that needed for a carrier?

Chola, a CATOBAR (like the Nimitz, Gerald Ford and Charles De Gaulle Class) can only be fully exploited if;

1) She must be nuclear powered. Not happening right now because of the MoD.
2) The bold part of your statement is equally important for a CATOBAR. You need all the support equipment in place. Otherwise a CATOBAR vessel is a royal waste of money. Same, even for a ski jump type vessel. No vessel of that size operates alone. You are practically asking for it to get sunk. You might as well put a sign on her, which states SINK ME.

To maintain our aircraft carrier building experience (which is VERY important), the following must be done;

a) Make the third vessel (Vishaal) a larger ski jump type vessel. Around 55,000 tons.
b) Make the lifts of the Vishaal to fit every naval fighter out there --> F-35, Rafale M, F-18E/F, etc.
c) Lay the keel now and she will be ready for carrier ops by 2030. Retire the Vikramaditya at that time.
d) By 2030, the IN will have two new, Indian designed and built aircraft carriers - Vikrant and Vishaal.
d) Have the IN and DAE work together to design & develop a reactor for a nuclear powered aircraft carrier.
e) Lay the keel for a 75,000 - 85,000 ton vessel in 2025 and she will be ready for carrier ops in the late 2030s. Our first nuclear powered aircraft carrier. Expect nothing short of 15 years.

Successive govts have wasted enough time already. No more time to waste.


I don’t believe the IN is pushing for a nook or even EMALS specifically. Nuclear and EMALS, especially, were brought into the public consciousness by the US offers of help. The IN wanted a 65-K ton CATOBAR . It could be conventional with steam cats.

I want a CVN of course but I would be happy with anything. I just want a plan. I’m scared that we will lose years by not funding anything. We need a roadmap.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vasu raya » 30 Jan 2018 06:55

Its galling to know that the Chinese stole the EMALS designs somehow and IN is suddenly staring at a tech gap with Unkil offering it to let IN leapfrog ...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 30 Jan 2018 07:12

Not only EMALS and catapults but the carrier-borne AEW solutuons, carrier-borne drones, everything else. Having a CATOBAR planned means they can start on all that ancillary spying and/or research now because they know their hulls are coming.

We are left with the Admirals begging MoD every so many months for acceptance of their vision which frankly is a 65K ton CATOBAR to tie us into the future. If MoD refuses again, then they need to come to a compromise soon.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 30 Jan 2018 07:41

Rakesh wrote:
Rishi_Tri wrote:
Of late a number of these 'Make in India' reports have come out. None of these talk about building our own capability or building on the experience already gained. Only about X value and foreign collaborator not being identified.

I am completely at sea here, but we find ourselves capable of designing nuclear subs (with help wherever needed) but not of designing conventional submarines.

The plan was to build six Project 75 (Scorpene Class) + six Project 75I (yet to be decided) boats. The lessons learnt from both those boats, would be incorporated into an Indian designed boat. Obviously not happening. Follow on Scorpenes, seems likely unlikely. Neither is the Shortfin Barracuda (the Australian boat from DCNS).

That leaves the HDW Type 214 (reliability issues), the Russian Amur (major design issues) and Saab's A26 (vaporware just like Gripen E). Not a good situation to be in. The Soryu was perfect, but the Japanese are refusing to participate in the competition. The only way out, would be to start off on an Indian designed boat --> with USHUS sonar, 24 - 36 VLS plug of BrahMos-ER, Varunastra torpedoes, etc.


IMO, India has taken a flawed approach to designing and building indigenous SSK. After Type-1500, indigenous R&D should have started and something should have been built Mk.1. Then when Scorpene came along add whatever learned from it to the Mk.2 of the Indian SSK. Finally with the future P-75I acquisition, apply what's new to the Mk.3 variant.

The time gap between each of these acquisition is so long that whatever lessons were learnt gets forgotten and lost. Waiting for the perfect blend of technologies from East and West before beginning one's own is not the right way forward. In those 30-50 years, India could have mastered its own designs.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 30 Jan 2018 08:47

There is no $$ in indigenousing U-209 however new procurement = lot of money for all parties involved yes that includes MDL. Same parties are now glad Scorpene procurement is canned which means another new procurement process and millions flowing in from and to foreign vendors and consultants.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 30 Jan 2018 09:01

japan won the aussie deal and then lost to french under the table tactics. they are not rigged to participate in these corrupt global tenders.

PMO should sound out on a FMS kind of single-vendor deal. they are only ones with a in-service large SSK.

the rest I agree are pathetic or compromised.

it should be either Soryu followed by indigenous design or a indigenous derivative of the U209 and Scorpene whatever we can harvest

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 30 Jan 2018 10:40

Only 30% (by value) of the Scorpene is made in India, I doubt it was much different for the U209. Unless we try to make the other 70%, we will remain in the screwdrivergiri cycle.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Jan 2018 11:07

Amur will be cheapest, fastest and the only item of doubt was its AIP system now back in prod. and anyway our DRDO AIP system is almost perfected and can be used.
These boats can carry BMos most important factor.German U-2boats for the 75-I req.Amurs as Kilo replacements.We are nowhere near a Desi design.

Ironically dear old Paulraj, the genius who designed our indigenous sonars decades ago, world beaters at that time,and was discarded by the GOI/DRDO establishment, has just been inducted into the US "Hall of Fame"! Data commns.transmission expert.Was later awarded a Padma award.Finally acknowledging his genius at the ripe age of 73 it was the Modi govt. who sought his help and he is supposed to be officially assisting us.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2018 22:08

Singha wrote:japan won the aussie deal and then lost to french under the table tactics. they are not rigged to participate in these corrupt global tenders.

PMO should sound out on a FMS kind of single-vendor deal. they are only ones with a in-service large SSK.

the rest I agree are pathetic or compromised.

it should be either Soryu followed by indigenous design or a indigenous derivative of the U209 and Scorpene whatever we can harvest

Amen! +108.

A good idea would be to follow the French model. We need a true blue-water SSK, not this brown-water SSK vessel as in the Scorpene Class (or Type 214, Amur, A26, etc).

So whatever indigenous SSN is designed & developed, do the same for the SSK design as well. The French have the Barracuda Class (SSN) and they have the Shortfin Barracuda (SSK). The latter is a serious, no-nonsense boat. Great endurance and uber quiet.

In the same vein, both our boat types should be identical, minus the propulsion and submerged displacement of course. 24 - 36 BrahMos-ER VLS. Each hatch should house 3 missiles, so a total of 8 - 12 hatches (so a row of 4 - 6 on each side). USHUS sonar. Varunastra heavy torpedoes. DRDO AIP plug for the SSK with a minimum of 3 weeks endurance at silent speed. HEU reactor for the SSN. Fast, but yet Silent.

Project 75I should be our indigenous SSK design. 6,000 tons submerged. A true beast. 12 (6 + Improved 6) boats.
Project 76N should be our indigenous SSN design. 9,000 tons submerged. Just to needle the Dragon. Six boats.

12 SSK + 6 SSN + 6 Scorpene SSK = 24 boats.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VKumar » 30 Jan 2018 22:47

+1,000,000

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 30 Jan 2018 23:21

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:If we wait until we have the budget in say 10 years to begin the CATOBAR then it would mean another 15 for that ship to be built and inducted. You are talking about 2045. And what about all the other things that needed for a carrier?

Chola, a CATOBAR (like the Nimitz, Gerald Ford and Charles De Gaulle Class) can only be fully exploited if;

1) She must be nuclear powered. Not happening right now because of the MoD.


Rakesh ji, I am not sure a nuclear power is necessary for a carrier to make a difference. Even if the carrier itself is nuclear, the planes are not and after a couple of weeks of operations, the carrier needs to take on aviation kerosene so it can continue to function as a weapons platform. Nuclear power does give advantages, particularly if your goal is to operate in the Pacific with vast distances and no nearby bases. If the farthest distance an Indian Carrier Battle Group operates is around malacca, a conventionally fueled carrier can be quite effective both in battle and occasional patrols.

2) The bold part of your statement is equally important for a CATOBAR. You need all the support equipment in place. Otherwise a CATOBAR vessel is a royal waste of money. Same, even for a ski jump type vessel. No vessel of that size operates alone. You are practically asking for it to get sunk. You might as well put a sign on her, which states SINK ME.


CATOBAR allows your carrier to have organic AEW (Chopper borne AEW is just not the same), sustain increased pace of combat operations, confidently take on land based fighters and finally, influence a land battle. You have the point about the carrier needing support, excuse me, ass backwards and fundamentally wrong.

Its the rest of the fleet that needs air cover by the carrier to confidently go in a region contested by either naval or land based air power. Without the carrier, virtually the entire Indian fleet will not venture into the strike radius of a Mirage/P3 based in Karachi. Even the best Indian naval SAM is outranged by the vintage cruise missiles owned by Pak. Once they locate the fleet, they can continue to remain outside the envelope of the SAM while taking pot shots at the fleet itself.

Without the carrier, specifically a CATOBAR carrier, any navy can not truly call itself a blue water force.

To add to the post, read this Quora thread:

https://www.quora.com/How-long-could-a- ... restocking
How long could a US aircraft carrier sustain itself without docking or restocking?
During heavy optempo while we were in the vicinity of the Persian Gulf, we routinely replenished every three days. We could probably go somewhat longer but, just like with your car, it is smart to keep your tanks topped up


An aircraft carrier in action burns through supplies in a hurry, and would run out in less than two weeks if not supported. Food would be the first one, followed shortly with AV gas.


Additionally, Nimitz Class Carriers can carry a max load of 3.3M gallons of JP-5 jet fuel and average 2.6M Gallons onboard (with peacetime replenishments).

However, the embarked Air Wing (50-60 Aircraft) can go through the average Nimitz class Carrier's JP-5 storage capacity in about a week at nomal peacetime training sortie (cycles).

So, in short, as a war fighting machine, nuclear powered aircraft carriers need, at a minimum, to be replenished with JP-5 Jet Fuel on a weekly basis to maintain operational capability


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