Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Oct 2017 20:29

Rakesh wrote:I agree with the Navy's decision on this. This sailor knew the rules and still flouted them. She needs to go.

undoubtedly.

She must have known the tendencies even before recruitment.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Oct 2017 00:30

The ‘100-Ton’ Difference In The Indian Navy’s New Submarine Hunter
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/10 ... unter.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Oct 2017 00:31

FIRST PHOTOS: Here’s Kiltan during sea trials last month
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/919578226850181121

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Oct 2017 12:20

Will the ability to shape the top works of the kiltan help in building hulls of minesweepers.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Oct 2017 12:34

The P-30 seems to have a lot less clutter than the P-28, seems to be much more stealthier design.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Oct 2017 12:37

Pratyush wrote:Will the ability to shape the top works of the kiltan help in building hulls of minesweepers.

No. Minesweeper hulls need a lot of shock & vibration resistance. Different design philosophy. The US uses wooden hulls because it believes it offers best shock resistance.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Oct 2017 12:48

tsarkar wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Will the ability to shape the top works of the kiltan help in building hulls of minesweepers.
No. Minesweeper hulls need a lot of shock & vibration resistance. Different design philosophy. The US uses wooden hulls because it believes it offers best shock resistance.

also much reduced sensitivity to magnetic mines.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Oct 2017 12:51

And here I thought the ability to work with composits gave us the ability to build GRP hull.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Oct 2017 13:38

Armed with SR SAMs ,Barak/equiv. ranges upto 20+ km,gatlings and the poss. addition of SSMs behind the stack, would give the Kamortas excellent all-round capability,the ability to defend itself against sub/ship launched missiles and respond aggressively esp. when in blue water ops. These vessels are around the same size + of our former Nilgiri class frigates.They aren't cheap either so they must be leveraged to contain as much firepower as poss.There were reports that the P-28As would have improved sensors and weaponry,let's hope they are built at speed.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Oct 2017 13:49

Aditya_V wrote:The P-30 seems to have a lot less clutter than the P-28, seems to be much more stealthier design.

Looks same to me ....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Oct 2017 19:03

Is the Kiltan equipped with barak. As the DDM is reporting it.

Even wiki has this information, but is it accurate.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 17 Oct 2017 14:06

ASW swc:

Make in India: Government shipyards win Rs 12,000 crore deal to supply 16 ASW craft to Navy
Leaving private sector competitors behind, government shipyards -- Cochin Shipyard Limited and Garden Reach Shipyard Limited -- bagged the order to supply 16 anti-submarine warfare (ASW) craft to the Indian Navy.

Under Prime Minister Narendra Modi's 'Make in India' programme, government shipyards are moving ahead of their private sector rivals in warship building as they have emerged winners in a Rs 12,000-crore deal to supply 16 anti-submarine warfare (ASW) craft to the Navy.

"As tenders for the Rs 12,000-crore deal were opened, the shipping ministry's Cochin Shipyard Limited and defence ministry's Garden Reach Shipyard Limited (GRSE) emerged as the two lowest bidders," a defence ministry source told Mail Today.

This is the third open tender deal involving competitive bids in the recent past which has gone to public sector firms. Recently, the Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) won the contract for building two diving support vessels (DSVs) worth Rs 2,020 crore after it emerged as the lowest bidder.

Under the ASW shallow water craft deal, CSL emerged as the lowest bidder and GRSE the second lowest. The second lowest bidder will have to build the eight crafts at the price offered by the lowest bidder as per the tender issued by the Navy.

As per the defence procurement procedure, the company offering the lowest price for a particular weapon system is given the contract among the firms which meet technical requirements specified in the tender document.

When the private sector firms were allowed to bid for defence contracts, it was felt that they would be quoting lower prices than government firms, but this has proved to be otherwise.

In the recent past, there have been cases where Navy and Coast Guard projects have been delayed by private shipyards and in some of the cases, the delay has been by many years.

In one such case, a Gujarat-based shipyard has been able to supply only one out of six survey vessels ordered by the Navy even 10 years after signing the deal. In another case, a major private shipyard has not supplied even a single patrol vessel out of the contract for five signed more than six years ago.

Some of the major private sector shipyards are facing serious financial constraints and were cleared by the government for receiving tenders only after conditional clearances were granted to them by the defence ministry's finance wing.

Due to the improved performance of defence shipyards, the Goa Shipyard Limited was nominated by the government for partnering with the Russians for manufacturing four Talwar-Class follow-on warships worth more than Rs 20,000 crore.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...t ... 69446.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Oct 2017 16:29

Navy blues: policy shortsightedness dogs Indian warship building
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/10/n ... -dogs.html

@ INS Kiltan commissioning ceremony

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Oct 2017 16:47

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/919978807762620417 --> From the INS Kiltan commissioning today: Indian Navy spokesperson Capt DK Sharma with the new warship’s CO & XO.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Oct 2017 16:49

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/919855338244808704 --> Here’s wishing Commander Naushad Ali Khan, the 1st skipper of the Indian Navy’s new anti-submarine ship INS Kiltan. Shano Varuna & happy hunting!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Oct 2017 16:51

Glorious shots of INS Kiltan and it’s all-composite superstructure. First photo courtesy of Vivek Gupta, News 18 India.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Oct 2017 16:53

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/919766152053653510 ---> Indian Navy P-8I arrives in airspace NE of Philippines to join search for missing sailors of MV Emerald Star.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Oct 2017 16:54

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 8485085184 --> Interesting. Indian Navy SAR ops underway just outside the nine-dash line (well... ish). But close enough!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Oct 2017 09:55

Navy blues: policy shortsightedness dogs Indian warship building

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 17th Oct 17

The commissioning on Monday of India’s third and newest anti-submarine corvette, INS Kiltan, by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman is good news. But it also underlines the ills that plague warship building in India. The Kiltan was commissioned five years later than originally scheduled and without anti-submarine capabilities that are fundamental to such a corvette. Three and a half years after the National Democratic Alliance came to power promising to quickly make up the military’s arms shortfalls, it is evident that, in warship building like in the procurement of other weaponry, this government has performed no better than the United Progressive Alliance before it.

In April, the navy’s warships acquisition chief told defence industrialists in New Delhi that the navy would increase its strength from 140 vessels currently to 170-180 ships by 2027. This requires increasing warship numbers by three or four every year, as well as inducting four or five new vessels annually to replace warships that complete their service lives of 25-30 years. Against this requirement for seven to nine new warships every year, the navy is barely able to induct three or four. This lackadaisical production rate in domestic defence shipyards has forced the navy to look overseas at offers like the Russian one to build four follow-on frigates of the Talwar-class.

A key reason for building delays is the navy’s penchant for the latest, with admirals demanding that each warship incorporates newer and more sophisticated technology. This is a recipe for delay. In contrast, fast builders like China finalise a particular design and then churn out a large number of those warships, benefiting from economies of scale, the certainty of supply orders and worker experience in building a particular “type”. The People’s Liberation Army (Navy) has already commissioned 25 Type 054A Jiangkai-II class frigates and is building three more. It has already inducted six Type 052D Luying-III class destroyers and work is under way on at least eight more.

In contrast, the Indian navy builds barely three or four warships of one type before going back to the drawing board and reworking specifications. It built just three Delhi-class destroyers under Project 15 and then took years to rework the design into what it called a “follow-on” class – Project 15A – but which was actually a substantively different warship. Even before three destroyers were built under Project 15A, the navy reworked the design into Project 15B, to build four new destroyers. Frigate orders have been similarly broken up. After Project 17 (three ships), there is now a follow order under Project 17A for seven frigates but, inexplicably, this is distributed between two different shipyards. A different kind of disjointedness characterises the four-corvette Project 28 order. The ship commissioned on Monday, INS Kiltan, has an all-composite superstructure in place of the steel superstructures on the first two Project 28 corvettes.

Besides design and planning confusion, warship building is also dogged by capacity limitations. All four public sector warship yards – Mazagon Dock (Mumbai); Garden Reach (Kolkata); Goa Shipyard (Goa) and Hindustan Shipyard (Visakhapatnam) – are located in metropolitan areas with little scope for expanding facilities. To add capacity, the defence ministry created the “strategic partner” policy to bring in private sector shipbuilders like Larsen & Toubro and Reliance Defence Industries. But the poorly conceived policy faces opposition, not least from within the defence ministry itself. Consequently, projects earmarked for strategic partners languish, such as Project 75-I to build six new submarines, even as Mazagon Dock’s submarine building facilities increasingly lie idle. Without policy clarity within the ministry, the navy’s strength and numbers are set to fall further.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Oct 2017 21:20

Spot on.The disease wanting the best and changing track during constr. plagues all 3 services.That's how Germany lost the (tank) war.No mass production techniques like Russia or the US,always tinkering with prod. with "improvements". We are falling behind China by the day,and it will be to our detriment.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 Oct 2017 01:01

My comments on Ajai Shukla's article;

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ie/2017/10/n ... -dogs.html

Broadsword said...
@ Anonymous 23:33 ...that the seven ships of 17A have been split up between two shipyards, losing the advantage of building in numbers.

- Ajai Shukla says that splitting orders between multiple yards cuts advantages in numbers. However, this is necessary given the tardy pace of construction by Indian shipyards. A much smaller, and simpler order for 8 LCUs was placed on Sep-2011 - 6 years ago - and yet only 2 stand commissioned today.

- Splitting orders between yards ensures a large set of ships can be built to a common equipment standard in a comparatively compact to avoid situations where upgrades are required within each class. INS Mysore for example was very different from INS Delhi when commissioned.

A key reason for building delays is the navy’s penchant for the latest, with admirals demanding that each warship incorporates newer and more sophisticated technology. This is a recipe for delay

On examination I don't find this point to be true at all. IN has standardized and ensured many basic equipment is shared across the fleet and also ensured indigestion of same;

- ITTL for HWT
- IRL for ASW mortars
- BHEL/Oto Melara 76 mm cannons
- AK-630 30 mm gatling guns
- CRN-91 30 mm cannon
- Lynx U2 FCS
- BEL Shikari electro-optical sight
- Brahmos SSM
and more.

In contrast, the Indian navy builds barely three or four warships of one type before going back to the drawing board and reworking specifications.

That was true in 1980s and 90s; Projects 15, 16, and 25. Truth being we lacked the capital to order more. Compared to the 1980s (when our naval power was at peak), the Navy is in fact moving to fewer classes of ships with higher units;

- 07 x Project 15A/15B
- 10 x Talwar Class
- 10 x Project 17/17A
- 06 x NGMV with certain follow on orders
- 16 x ASW-SWC
- 12 x GSL MCMVs
- 14 x WJFACs (replaces mofussil seaward defence boat classes)
- 08 x LCU Mk. IV (replaces LCUs and Kumbhir class)
- 06 x HSLC
- 05 x FSS

titash · Post by **titash** » 19 Oct 2017 01:28

Phillip,

Ajai Shukla is way off the mark here. An ex-armed forces officer he is, but an expert in naval matters he is not. Several mistakes in the article:

Even before three destroyers were built under Project 15A, the navy reworked the design into Project 15B, to build four new destroyers.

The P-15B is a virtual repeat of the P-15A with minor changes to superstructure. Which is why those ships are coming (relatively) fast.

Frigate orders have been similarly broken up. After Project 17 (three ships), there is now a follow order under Project 17A for seven frigates but, inexplicably, this is distributed between two different shipyards.

For a very specific reason - that is to establish a second manufacturing line of frigate/destroyer on another seaboard. The Godavari/Brahmaputra class was supposed to accomplish exactly the same thing at MDL/GRSE but labor problems forced the navy to restrict frigate/destroyer construction to MDL only. Only in recent years has GRSE been brought back on track and is graduating from frigate sized P-28 to destroyer sized P-17A. Likewise P-17A will be the vehicle for establishing modular construction techniques on both manufacturing lines.

A different kind of disjointedness characterises the four-corvette Project 28 order. The ship commissioned on Monday, INS Kiltan, has an all-composite superstructure in place of the steel superstructures on the first two Project 28 corvettes.

Again for a very good reason. The first 2 corvettes had stability problems due to higher topweight. The composite structure was expected to alleviate some of that. But there may be a penalty in battle damage resistance...we shall see if composites hold up as well as steel.

The bigger question he doesn't address. Do we have the $$$$ for churning out frigates like sausages? These ships need to be equipped with engines (purchased or license mfg costs are incurred) and sensors/weapons (purchased or license mfg costs are incurred) and provided with trained crews (costs $$$) and incur high operational costs (fuel, maintenance, etc.). Do we really have the budget to pay for the navy we want? Else all this talk of capacity, productivity, inefficiency etc. is BS.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 Oct 2017 01:41

The award for ASW-SWC tender is the most significant tender from Navy in years. The ideal ASW ship should be cheap and numerous, like the erstwhile Arnala (Petya) class submarine chasers. So 16 SWCs replace 4 x Abhay and 12 x Arnala class ASW ships.

The large order perhaps explains why no more Project 28s have been requested thus far.

The MCMV order will nicely round up capability for undersea warfare.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 19 Oct 2017 03:38

I think Shukla has hit the nail in the head! That is exactly the problem with that said there other major issues as pointed by post above which cause IN to do it.

In general we like to buy weapons in small chunks. Su30s were bought in 4-5 different orders. What a deal we could have received if we had put an order for 300 flankers in one go. For everything we have follow on orders obsession. We need ot order frigates in set of 10 with upgrades to design allowed at midway.Corvets should be ordered in set of 12 to 16 in one go and destroyers in a set of at least six to 8. Subs should be ordered in set of a dozen at a time. We'll get much better prices and faster delivery schedules, much happier and much more profitable yards

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Oct 2017 03:46

Katare wrote:I think Shukla has hit the nail in the head! That is exactly the problem with that said there other major issues as pointed by post above which cause IN to do it.

In general we like to buy weapons in small chunks. Su30s were bought in 4-5 different orders. What a deal we could have received if we had put an order for 300 flankers in one go. For everything we have follow on orders obsession. We need ot order frigates in set of 10 with upgrades to design allowed at midway.Corvets should be ordered in set of 12 to 16 in one go and destroyers in a set of at least six to 8. Subs should be ordered in set of a dozen at a time. We'll get much better prices and faster delivery schedules, much happier and much more profitable yards

Lots of gaps in production.

Add to that "11-steps" procurement bureaucracy for every time a "small" order is requested!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Oct 2017 06:18

The problem is a constipated British disease of small production numbers and small production runs.
Britain is a regional power, and realized this by WW2.

India needs to realize it is a super power, and grow up.

The abilities of India's private shipbuilders needs to be unleashed if there has to be any hope for the kind of numbers and quality.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Oct 2017 06:44

US to release EMALS technology to India for aircraft carriers
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 129874.cms

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Oct 2017 07:28

Money has always been a problem for the IN.Even in the '60s and '70s where was the money?The IN had the smallest share and thanks to brilliant chiefs started a "builders navy" with the Leander class prog. and never looked back.Simultaneously, we got from Russia large numbers of ships and subs.12 Petyas,8 Foxtrots,two classes of around 18+minesweepers,10 (?) Polnocny LCTs from Poland etc.Later came the 5 Kashin/Rajputs.

The reason for smaller orders at home has been attributed to the lack of space at MDL and other yards for fitting out,etc. It explains splitting large numbers of say P-17As. Simultaneous batches mean faster induction of all the warships. Modernisation of the shipyards was also neglected.
Yet even with the small batches the IN in recent times were (CAG) alleged to have not finalised some weapon systems/sensors in time,or changed eqpt. during constr. leading to delays and cost increases.

If the 16 inshore ( a better word than "shallow water!) ASW corvettes are split as suggested into 2X8 orders for two yards,there is enough numbers and a competitive spirit also at play,but the entire lot should be ordered right away.

OK'ing EMALS for us by the US is to try and prevent IAC-2 from being shelved right now due to its high cost. There is a war going on right now between the US,Europe,Russia,Israel and smaller entities for a share of our approx. $200B def. imports/budget over the next few years.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 19 Oct 2017 23:46

Shukla is absolutely right. Also need to fire some bureaucrats and hire retired Chiefs in Procurement - let them shape national procurement policy and not babus!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Oct 2017 04:38

http://www.india.com/news/india/ins-ari ... s-2541200/

INS Aridhaman is already undergoing finals checks and it is likely to be launched for sea trials in late November or December. The nuclear reactor which will power INS Aridhaman will go critical only after sea trials. The submarine will be formally commissioned into the Navy only by 2019. INS Arihant is powered by an 83 MW pressurised light water nuclear reactor.
Two more SSBN submarines under ATV project are already in the pipeline. With four nuclear submarines, Indian Navy will be able to truly project its blue-water operational capabilities.
The third submarine, which is likely to be launched in 2018, will have much more advanced weapons, systems and equipment than Arihant and Aridhaman, but will be of the same size as its predecesso

Some data points even however fuzzy they maybe.

Aridhaman is also much faster than Arihant. Powered by a pressurised water reactor, Aridhaman boasts of a seven-blade propeller with a maximum surface speed of 15 knots and 24 knots underwater.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Oct 2017 15:13

It was on NDTV site, but later deleted... Apologies if posted earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kurE1XHgYAE

Vested Interests Have Stalled Reforms,’ Former Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Oct 2017 16:47

Admiral is mixing up things ; his retirement happened primarily in the backdrop of Sindhurakshak accident in 2013 August and then later Sindhuratna in 2014 both submarine accidents were due to "operational errors" that IN has confirmed it has nothing to do with vested interests ; the battery issue with Sindhurakshak happened in 2010. However the video again shows what is exactly wrong in the system people from one 'department' claim that the other 'department' is not doing their job this is the root cause of all issues in any system all that talk notwithstanding now the good Adm has now joined the dark side (he is now LG of A&N islands so part of the same neta-babu group that accepted his resignation within 2 hours).

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Oct 2017 19:47

The admiral is referencing MMSs scalding remarks about national resources.in this context he is critical about the lack of powers to sanction upgrades and repairs even though he is responsible to operate the boats.

The governer is not a babu, he is a political appointee, but definitely not a neta either.

negi wrote:Admiral is mixing up things ; his retirement happened primarily in the backdrop of Sindhurakshak accident in 2013 August and then later Sindhuratna in 2014 both submarine accidents were due to "operational errors" that IN has confirmed it has nothing to do with vested interests ; the battery issue with Sindhurakshak happened in 2010. However the video again shows what is exactly wrong in the system people from one 'department' claim that the other 'department' is not doing their job this is the root cause of all issues in any system all that talk notwithstanding now the good Adm has now joined the dark side (he is now LG of A&N islands so part of the same neta-babu group that accepted his resignation within 2 hours).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2017 20:15

AdityaG, Also Admiral Ramdas mentioned in a Frontline interview in 1990s that the industry had asked for a minimum buy of 3 ships of a class to ensure production runs. And that has been the policy since the mid 90s. Usually build 3 of class and then incorporate lessons learned on next 3.
So Shukla jis is wrong. He is mostly agenda driven journalist. I just take his data and not his opinions.

Philip,
In ship building its the hull construction which is the long lead item. The weapons and electronics are all standardized products built at various DPSUs and OFBs.

Therefore splitting the order at various shipyards ensures schedule stay on track. And no single shipyard strike torpedoes the ship construction program.

chetak I am going to post the interview text as it confirms a lot of things speculated on the forum.

Negi, Admiral Joshi resignation was triggered by the Sindhurakshak fire but his decision was formed by the unaccountability for the numerous accidents in the IN and the political/bureaucracy malaise.

BTW USN can take a lesson from his action.

His being appointed LG for A&N is a deep decision. Not dark side.

Its for coming turmoil in the high seas after Doklam.

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Oct 2017 20:26

Aditya G wrote:The admiral is referencing MMSs scalding remarks about national resources.in this context he is critical about the lack of powers to sanction upgrades and repairs even though he is responsible to operate the boats.

The governer is not a babu, he is a political appointee, but definitely not a neta either.

You are missing the point , issue is accidents that lead to Admiral stepping down have nothing to do with sanction of upgrades

His comments are no different from laments from common joe on the street about government's apathy towards roads or other administrative issues . As for his point let me tell you no armed force will get financial autonomy not even within the USA everywhere the purse strings are controlled centrally . As for your last observation that is clutching at the straws point I made was it is easy to criticize the system when it doesn't work for you , at the time when this interview was recorded things did not work for him ; now he is having to work within the same system and with same people . LG/Governor/MLA are all the same for they are part of the "legislative" you wish to make that distinction for your convenience specifically for this topic go ahead.

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 20 Oct 2017 21:40

The news link below says iNS Kadmatt (P29) was involved in a collision with a Russian ship in Vladivostok on October 19th.

http://maritimebulletin.net/2017/10/20/ ... ital-ship/

However, there's nothing else on the internet confirming this - nor any statement put out by the IN yet.

So take it FWIW

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Oct 2017 22:10

Those hulls have definitely made contact in the pictures above. There will be damage.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Oct 2017 22:19

Rakesh wrote:Those hulls have definitely made contact in the pictures above. There will be damage.

Fenders would have been deployed anyway. Hopefully, that would have taken the main impact and cushioned it as well.

the damage will be more to the ego of the corvette commander. A few dents and scrapes. All vitals are safe.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Oct 2017 22:21

ego is the least of his worries now. If he is found guilty, it will result in more serious action. At the least, a blot on his service record.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2017 22:23

Chetak, Where is the fender on the P-29?