Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[NRao]

India decided, some 10-15 years ago, that she needs a 65,000 ton ship. It is a done deal. So, why all this JC and another Vikrant talk? *At most* modify the Vishal deck. And, my suspicion is that such mods will come with the EMALS - let us see.

It is not, or at least should not be, a mutually exclusive proposition. A 65kt Vishal is well and good but fact still remains that the ship will only be commissioned by the mid-2030s. Ideally, we ought to be looking at a two ship class (like the RN's QE & PoW). With the economy chugging along affordability should not be a concern.

In the meantime, we still need an aircraft carrier. The IAC Vikrant is fine but it will have have to enter refit at some point, which is when the IN's air cover will become entirely dependent on the reliability of VikAd. And that is not a comforting thought.

* There is a diff between a Vikrant and a Vishal. I think we all can agree on that - that they are not equals
* There is a reason that the IN decided on such a large leap (and it is a large leap) in tonnage between two successive carriers. And the reason is political, not a service based or technical - it always in political
* So proposing another +/-40 T class carrier will not suffice, other than to satisfy number of ships in the IN

I am not familiar with the dates (I will check it out), but whatever the reason/s for this delay of the Vishal has to be acceptable to both the IN and more so to the political wing. Else they will be forced to find an alternative - some of which you mention.

No matter what, I have this strange feeling that the Vishal will arrive 2030 or earlier. She may not be a complete boat, but I expect her to be a fit one that they can build on without missing a step.

Let us see.

IMVVHO, the next step for India should be the design and build of a naval AMCA prototype, along with the one for the IAF.

Same situation as the IAC-2. The AMCA will only be operational in the mid-2030s. Perhaps even 2040. Just for reference the F-35's production run is expected to conclude in 2037. Putting us back in the same shoes we are today with the Tejas & F-16.

Hard as it is for me to admit, we might have missed have boat on the 5th gen front - for over a decade all we've seen are line drawings of the AMCA and even the Tejas just now entering service.

There is a good argument to be made for dropping the AMCA project entirely to focus our resources on leapfrogging the gap to the next stage. By 2030, the first generation of (flying wing) UCAVs should be entering service. If we can commission the AURA by 2035 it might finally allow us close the gap with the West and particularly China.

I just do not think so.

So, from a service point of view (IAF/IN), yes a "F-35" is the right medicine to prescribe.

But, from a MIC point of view, there is really no escaping the LCA -> AMCA -> whatever-gen-the-next-plane-is. That sequence is the only way out - because each subsequent tech depends on the previous one. It is additive to a great extent.

While the services can afford to, and may be need to, "leap-frog", the MIC can never do that. They have to grind it out. Actually it is the GoI that needs to wake up and provide the support for this grinding.

[titash]

Cross-Posting from the Indian Military Helicopters Thread.

ALH radar tender

Thanks sankum-ji...this clears up a lot of speculation.

"Surveillance Radar Integration could be either through MIL-STD-1553B Mission
Bus to IADS or can be a standalone system with display integrated with DMC. In
both the options, it is required to display radar video in the display unit of Sonar
system which will be in the cabin in a few helicopters. The common keyboard /
joystick in the cabin would be used for controls of Radar also. There would be a
switch on the common keyboard which will toggle the cabin control and display
between Radar and Sonar."

The 16 IN Dhruvs will be equipped with the LFDS dipping SONAR as well as the surveillance radar. Looks like HAL has finally gotten around the 3 constraints that prevented the Dhruv from being carried onboard smaller warships:
(1) Vibration issues resolved
(2) folding rotor blades issues resolved
(3) payload & endurance apparently aren't that much of an issues given that the Westland Lynx and Augusta Bell AB212 are of similar or smaller dimensions...also helped by the fact that the 123 NMRHs (SeaHawk or NH-90 don't come cheap)

This should go a long way to mitigate the empty helipads on all out dual-hangar frigates and destroyers.

[Viv S]

I keep hearing this word, leapfrogging, but I dont understand how it actually works in practice. In reality, in technology, there is no such thing as leapfrogging, or if there is, it happens very very occasionally. Instead, technology grows layer by layer, on top of the last generation technology.
.
.
There is no such thing as leapfrogging and Indian technology managers are fooling themselves if they think they can leapfrog and miss current generation technologies and go on directly to the one coming later.

The first aircraft developed in India was the 2nd gen Marut, no 1st gen aircraft preceded it. Most of that experience had been lost when the 4th gen Tejas project was sanctioned. And today the pre-development of the AURA has commenced even while the AMCA remains two decades away.

I get what you're trying to say in general but it doesn't really apply here. To begin with, much of the technology that goes onto 5th gen platforms can be proofed on a 4.5th gen system - esp. in terms of networking, sensor fusion, LPI emission control etc. Other aspects, particularly EM/IR signature reduction techniques, wide-spectrum RAM and such don't need to be demonstrated on a fighter platform before being ported over to a UCAV project.

[Viv S]

* There is a diff between a Vikrant and a Vishal. I think we all can agree on that - that they are not equals
* There is a reason that the IN decided on such a large leap (and it is a large leap) in tonnage between two successive carriers. And the reason is political, not a service based or technical - it always in political
* So proposing another +/-40 T class carrier will not suffice, other than to satisfy number of ships in the IN

Like I said, I'm all for the Vishal. If anything, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it scaled up.. maybe to a 75,000 ton vessel. But it is an ambitious project involving nuclear propulsion and that will inevitably take time - 5 years for development plus 10 years for the build cycle.

Take the USN's new Ford class vessel for example - sure its biggest, best and all that but for an industry that's been churning out (progressively upgraded) Nimitz class ships since 1975, its only a iterative upgrade - better sortie generation rate, easier & cheaper maintenance, larger flight deck, EMALS, lower RCS, better sensors but nothing truly revolutionary (unlike say the Zumwalt DDG). And yet..CVN-21 program. Start of development - 2001. First ship commissioned - 2017. That's over 15 years in development. Given that the IAC-2 program for us at our tech/experience base is considerably more ambitious, it would be prudent to assume that it would take at least 15 years for CSL to deliver the ship to the Navy.

A second Vikrant class ship (or a flight of JC LHAs) should be viewed as they are i.e. gap-fillers, a backup to the VikAd, not as a substitute for the IAC-2 which stands on its own merits for an IN fleet of the 2030s.

[K_Rohit]

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/868817833370697728

With INS Ganga being decommissioned, who gets its Barak?

[Philip]

Viv has echoed what I and many others feel.Great to possess a large CV with all the latest bells and whistles,but the time and cost factors impinge here when we're going to face a PLAN with at least 4 carriers by 2025. Yes, a sister ship to the Vik-A will be an interim solution,but it will give the IN numbers of flat tops ,vital when the gameplan of the PRC is to simultaneously assault us on sev. fronts in the IOR. If we also have 35K t air-capable LHPDs,like the ski-jump equipped JC,or with a modified flight deck so that a cat can be installed,these flat tops larger than the Viraat, would be excellent assets to deal with smaller crises in the IOR ,where a full-fledged carrier with strike ops say against the Paki entity would be required.Or retain just a ski-jump and operate only 29Ks from them (hopefully 29Ks with all their issues resolved) or Sea Gripen/NLCA whatever. They would also be very useful ASW vessels with a large complement of ASW/multi-role helos. What is desperately required right now are immediate additions to the sub fleet,perhaps more N-boats on lease from Russia and conventional sub building at a min. of two yards ,so that at least 2 subs are launched every year 3 years hence.2020. The N-sub facility at Vizag is a separate issue,as its principal task is to build our fleet of SSBNs.

Nevertheless,planning for a larger carrier in the future must go on.EMALS today has its problems and we aren't sure what type of (stealth) aircraft would be the main type aboard the large CV,as well as the type of propulsion. The US has refused to give us N-reactor tech ,therefore we have no other option but to get Russian assistance for it,should we want it,as is being done with the ATV programme.

[anupamd]

[quote="Viv S"
A second Vikrant class ship (or a flight of JC LHAs) should be viewed as they are i.e. gap-fillers, a backup to the VikAd, not as a substitute for the IAC-2 which stands on its own merits for an IN fleet of the 2030s.[/quote]

An option that can be looked into and merits rationalization, cost optimization, reduced future headache and also supports MII, would be to build the second Vikrant and sell the VikAd, 6-7 years down the line to a willing allied country in IOR or SCS region. This can be pursued parallel to the Vishal design and construction as the vision and expectations from both classes are different. Obviously on the political front ground has to be set for supporting and setting up a willing ally to own and operate a small carrier war group with India's support. Perhaps Japan and US can also be ropped in.

Maybe I am dreaming too much.

[Singha]

if we get a 2nd vikrant, the vikad could be used as a training vessel mostly, its uptime is likely to be less than vikrant class due to its steam plant and unique OEM parts pipeline. or convert it into a AAW ships with a shitload of LRSAMs and MRSTAR++ radar - it certainly has the magazine depth, speed and power supply... better yet convert it into original role of a missile cruiser (LRSAM+Brahmos) and load it with 10 ASW helis to arrive back via a long route at the Kiev++ class

Vik #2 is a no brainer like producing some more Scorpenes - we have the production pipe in place and must use it. whining for a 70,000t desi forrestal class is like whining for apaches after getting LCHs

[Philip]

Why sell the VikA? It has been acquired for just $2.5B at escalated costs too! Constructing such a ship today would cost around $4-5B at least. A flat top can last for 40-50 years and all one needs to do is to change aircraft when new better ones arrive. If we ever acquire the F-35B,like the RN<we could use it on any of our ski-jump carriers.One could look at any option once the large carrier arrives 2030,but believe you me,we will be wanting more flat tops as more stealth naval fighters and UCAVs will be in service by then,definitely with western navies and even with China. Look how the Vikrant graduated from Sea Hawks to Sea Harriers by the simple addition of the ski-jump.

The "no-brainer" sister ship of the IAC-1 is eminently achievable since we've already launched the Vikrant-2. It can be built far faster than IAC-1.Some more improvements may be made to sensors,weaponry,etc.,a slightly larger,longer flight deck so that more aircraft can be carried,incluiding space for installation of LR B-8,and any new BPDMS systems.Plus if available,even new strike aircraft able to operate from the ski-jump,or additional upgraded 29Ks/35Ks.Alternatively,the new 59 fighter requirement indicates a requirement for about 3 sqds .With the existing approx 50 29Ks,we would have 100+ aircraft,equiv to 6 sqds which would serve aboard each of the carriers,two sqds. each.with enough war reserves/trg aircraft too.

[amit]

^^^^^
One constant in the Philiposky equation. Get what you want but make sure you get Mig29K, well you can also get the paper plane Mig35k along with it if you must. Nevermind the fact that even Mother Russia doesn't use either of the planes!

[Khalsa]

^^^^^ (philips mig-29 again)
now he is just embarassing himself again (facepalm)

Bas Kar Phillip Bhai Bas Kar.
No one is buying any more Ks from Russia except perhaps attrition replacements.

[Austin]

MEDIA: Missile launch from India's INS Tarkash

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/stat ... 5059099649

[Philip]

29Ks are being built for the RuN. The fact remains that we have almost 50 in service. meant to serve aboard two carriers. Ck the Vkirant td for some ideas for them using them from forwards island naval air stations/also carriers if there are genuine persisting problems unresolved using them from carriers. One alternative option,hand them over to the IAF ,an extreme option since the IAF is exploring buying old Malaysian 29s. Using the IN for a greater share of air defence of the IOR has been touted by me for a long time.The IAF could then transfer its MKIs to the northern and eastern sectors where they are more valuable in dealing with China and Pak.29Ks,with refuelling,as well as LRMP aircraft including a sqd. or two of strat. bombers,would serve us well in helping sanitise the IOR theatre.

[Philip]

29Ks are being built for the RuN. The fact remains that we have almost 50 in service. meant to serve aboard two carriers. Ck the Vkirant td for some ideas for them using them from forward island naval air stations/also carriers if there are genuine persisting problems unresolved using them from carriers. One alternative option,hand them over to the IAF ,an extreme option since the IAF is exploring buying old Malaysian 29s to add to its 60+ 29-UGs. Using the IN for a greater share of air defence of the IOR has been touted by me for a long time.The IAF could then transfer its MKIs to the northern and eastern sectors where they are more valuable in dealing with China and Pak.29Ks,with refuelling,as well as LRMP aircraft including a sqd. or two of strat. bombers,would serve us well in helping sanitise the IOR theatre.

[Khalsa]

@everyone

Is Mig-29K certified for a CAT launch.
i.e is the landing gear and body built strong enough to withstand the shock of launch if its built strong enough to withstand the shock of landing on aircraft carrier.

[NRao]

It is being trapped while landing already.

Doubt the nose wheel structure is strong enough to be launched by a cat.

BTW, there are some rather good (if we can trust them) resources out there: https://battlemachines.wordpress.com/20 ... l-fulcrum/

[Philip]

There's heaps of info about cat launch and recovery stress,etc. Here's a new technique being tried out by US SH's."Magic Carpet".

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/magic- ... 1793618342
XCpt:

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler pilots are practice landing on the USS Washington (CVN 73) with a fascinating new landing system called Maritime Augmented Guidance with Integrated Controls for Carrier Approach and Recovery Precision Enabling Technologies, or “MAGIC CARPET” for short. (They must have really wanted to use that acronym.)

The system takes on many of the stressful aspects of aircraft carrier landing, like having to gauge the course of landing with the moving ship and all of the things the pilot has to consider while doing it, such as adding and reducing power, adjusting the pitch, yaw and roll, as USNI News explains. Instead, the pilot simply controls the flight path.

And because the Navy’s Boeing F/A-18E/F’s all have digital flight controls, Magic Carpet makes that function for the pilot even easier.

Consequently, the system improves safety and efficiency for the pilots, taking much of the stress of landing off the pilot and putting it on the system. To be sure, as Breaking Defense puts it, the pilot is still in control. But, with Magic Carpet, he or she has a lot of help:

It’s rather like the old saying about swans. They seem smooth and graceful as they swim, but below the surface there’s a great deal of frantic paddling. With Magic Carpet, the computer is doing that paddling, constantly making tiny adjustments — faster and more precisely than any human could manage — to keep the aircraft on the pilot’s desired course.

In a further birdlike touch, a Super Hornet using Magic Carpet constantly flexes its control surfaces, making the wing look like it’s rippling. “If you ever watch a bird,” said Denham, “he’s modulating lift… to decel(erate) and control which limb he’s going to grab onto…warping and changing the whole wing.” Such “Direct Lift Control” has been tried before, starting decades ago, but without automation, it often proved too complicated for human pilots to keep track of.

When Magic Carpet is switched on, the pilot no longer directly controls the flaps, throttle, and so on. Instead, he or she chooses a path and the computer makes the fine adjustments to get and stay on it. Affecting one aspect of flight — angle, speed, alignment, and so on — still affects the others, but the pilot can focus on one at a time while the computer keeps the others under control. The pilot remains a crucial part of the system.

[jayasimha]

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defense
31-May-2017 15:11 IST
Navy Committed to Absorb New Technologies Through Self-Reliance Says Admiral Sunil Lanba, Chief of the Naval Staff

A two-day international Seminar with the theme ‘Building India’s Future Navy: Technology Imperatives’, organised by FICCI began here today with the top brass of the Indian Navy, Indian Coast Guard, Integrated Defence Staff, Ministry of Defence, DRDO, industry leaders from India and abroad, academia and thinkers coming together on a common platform to exchange ideas on realising the indigenous development cycle for cutting edge technologies that would be vital to building India’s future navy towards meeting the Government’s vision of ‘Make in India’.

Speaking at the inauguration of the Seminar, Admiral Sunil Lanba, Chief of the Naval Staff and Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee stated that the Indian Navy has taken giant strides in the field of indigenous ship design and construction to transition from a ‘Buyer’s’ Navy to a ‘Builder’s’ Navy. Despite the achievements in indigenous shipbuilding, the Navy continues to be dependent on external assistance for niche technologies. An important aspect in attaining 100% self-reliance in ship design and construction, therefore, is the indigenous development of high end technologies, their transition into shipborne equipment and systems, induction into Service and standardization. Self-reliance in defence production, which is a vital pre-requisite for achieving greater strategic autonomy, is no easy task and would require dedicated efforts by researchers, designers and manufacturers.

The Naval Chief brought out that the Indian Navy has taken the first step in this direction by formally articulating its indigenisation plans and need for the development of state-of-the-art systems and equipment through various policy and vision documents. This, along with initiatives like ‘Make in India’, would go a long way in building sustainable models for development of platforms and equipment requiring niche technologies.

Admiral Lanba highlighted the three primary requirements that need to be met while inducting a technology or a product – affordability, timely delivery and performance. To these primary imperatives, the Navy Chief went on to add a fourth dimension – that of life cycle sustenance by providing seamless technical support and making the technology future proof. He stated that this aspect is most vital for building a navy of the future and the support of the industry therefore extends well beyond just supply to lifecycle product support.


On the occasion, Admiral Lanba released two publications pertaining to compilation of papers authored by Naval officers on future technologies and a knowledge paper authored by FICCI. The Navy Chief also launched a web portal on Defence and Aerospace, developed by FICCI.

The Seminar is structured around dedicated sessions to deliberate on Indigenously Designed Developed and Manufactured (IDDM) - Projects for the Indian Industry; Modern Trends in Maritime Communications; Cyberspace Operations and Information Warfare; Shipborne Propulsion and Power Generation; Missiles, Underwater and Directed Energy Weapons; Opportunities for Coastal States; Surveillance and Detection Systems; Transformation in the Aviation Sector; Autonomous Vehicles; Disruptive Technologies; Warship Building in India and Building India’s Future Navy: Realizing the ‘Make in India’ Initiative.

Also speaking on the occasion, Ms. Naina Lal Kidwai, Past President, FICCI and Chairperson, Max Financial Services Ltd, said that the Seminar would provide a platform to the industry captains to understand and deliberate on the technology imperatives for a future ready naval force. She asked the industry to articulate their vision on how they could partner the Indian Navy and the other Defence Forces in achieving the stated goal of self-reliance through indigenisation.

DKS/AC

[Philip]

The GOI/MOD should identify pvt. entities ,with a proven track record,who can deliver many of the items mentioned,as they're futuristic in nature.They must be given some form of financial support like the DPSUs to get started given that a huge investment has to be made for setting up these mil/def industries.WE do not have a mil-industrial corporate base unlike the major nations/blocs.It will take sev. years before results appear,other than certain items where some of our corporate giants like L&T are already producing key components as in the ATV programme.

[brar_w]

There's heaps of info about cat launch and recovery stress,etc. Here's a new technique being tried out by US SH's."Magic Carpet".

Some of us have been posting about this including videos and pilot descriptions for a couple of years now . Of course the Super Hornet gets this from the F-35, for which the system was developed and is known as Delta Flight Path. If you see F-35C carrier landing videos in slow-motion you can see the surfaces working rapidly to hold the glide slope on approach and landing.

[Philip]

UDT Europe 2017: Next-gen submarines on the horizon
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps ... s-horizon/

IN could take agood look at what the Germans are planning for the future as we search for a suitable P-75I.

[Philip]

Truly dismal news.When we face such massive shortages of Mine countermeasure vessels,subs,etc. ,heads high in the air are more interested in large CVs,etc. Where are we going to get MCMs from in the interim,even after the deal with SoKo has been finalised? Chinese and Paki subs will have a field day laying mines at every Indian port/naval base.

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017051110 ... es-safety/
Left With Four Minesweepers Against Chinese Subs, Experts Fear for Safety

Solemn ceremony of Decommissioing of 2 of our Minesweepers INS Karwar & KakinadaIndia Left With Four Minesweepers Against Chinese Subs, Experts Fear for Safety
ASIA & PACIFIC
18:01 11.05.2017
With just four minesweepers out of the 24 required to secure its region from minefields, the Indian Navy is in dire straits with the existing four also due to be decommissioned next year without any news of any induction of new minesweepers.

Chinese Newspaper Says India’s Fears of Beijing’s Military Build-Up Exaggerated
New Delhi (Sputnik) — The Navy recently decommissioned two minesweepers ships, INS Karwar and INS Kakinada. It has left for only four minesweepers against the requirement of at least 24 minesweepers to secure its region from minefields

By the end of next year, the Indian Navy would have decommissioned all its existing minesweepers, without new inductions.

"This is certainly a cause for concern for India's maritime security, particularly considering the increasing operational deployments of Chinese submarines in the Indian Ocean Region. It is well known that the stealth attribute of submarines makes them the most appropriate platforms for laying an offensive minefield in the enemy's littoral waters," Naval Captain Gurpreet S. Khurana, Executive Director, National Maritime Foundation (NMF), said.

Indian Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba emphasized the need for continued efforts to modernize and expand the Navy's operational footprint so as to be a stabilizing force in Indian Ocean Region.
"For India, inadequate minesweeping and mine-hunting capabilities constrain the Indian Navy to provide security assistance to the regional countries during dire contingencies necessitating such assistance," Naval Captain Khurana said.

Arun Jaitley, the Indian Defense Minister, has assured the Indian Navy that due impetus through appropriate defense procurement policies is being given to make good the critical capability shortfalls, such as Mine Counter Measure Vessels (MCMVs). If government reaches an agreement to build 12 new MCMVs with South Korean company Kangnam Corporation at Goa Shipyard, it is unlikely that the delivery of the first MCMVs will be done before 2021. This means that the Indian Navy will have to cope without any MCMVs for more than three years.

India had bought six MCMVs from the erstwhile Soviet Union in the 1970s. Last year, the Indian government agreed to build 12 new MCMVs with the South Korean collaboration at Goa Shipyard. The Indian Navy needs at least 24 MCMVs to plug the shortfall. On the other hand, China has more than 100 minesweepers and MCMVs.

[Austin]

Indian Navy to build force armed with cutting-edge technology

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... gy/695384/

[Austin]

Indian Navy hopeful of getting INS Vikrant by 2020: Admiral Sunil Lanba

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india-i ... nba-384232

INS Vikrant is presently under construction at the Kochi shipyard.

“We are hopeful she will start trials in 2019 and we will take delivery in 2020,” Admiral Lanba told media persons on the sidelines of a FICCI event in New Delhi on Wednesday.

[uddu]

Can anyone confirm the ship @2.20 and the replenishment ship? Is it INS Viraat?

[Prithwiraj]

Can anyone confirm the ship @2.20 and the replenishment ship? Is it INS Viraat?

This certainly looks like

[vera_k]

There is no such thing as leapfrogging and Indian technology managers are fooling themselves if they think they can leapfrog and miss current generation technologies and go on directly to the one coming later.

True. Another point to be noted is that leapfrog technologies will under perform the then state of the art at least for some years. That naturally leads to extended development cycles as the user points to the existing equipment that with some upgrades continues to meet or beat the equipment with new leapfrog tech.

[Pratyush]

Can anyone confirm the ship @2.20 and the replenishment ship? Is it INS Viraat?

it I some yank ship.

[Philip]

Coming so soon afrer the news of a torpedo launch (type not mentioned) from the Kalvari,the news of the Khanderi's maiden sojourn into the sea is v.good news. for the IN's depleted sub fleet.If the remaining Scorpenes can be commissioned by 2020,it will be a good recovery of a much-delayed programme.Pertinent Qs are whether any of them will be fitted with an AIP system,a great advantage that PN subs have over our subs. What AIP system will ultimately be used by the IN is still unsure as the next conventional AIP sub class has yet to be identified,and the DRDO has also been working on its own system.

https://www.canindia.com/second-scorpen ... ea-sortie/

Second Scorpene submarine Khanderi undertakes maiden sea sortie
JUNE 2ND, 2017 CANINDIA NEW WIRE SERVICE 0 COMMENTS4
New Delhi, June 2 (IANS) The second of the indigenous Scorpene submarines, Khanderi has successfully completed its maiden sea sortie, in a major step forward to its induction in the Indian Navy, an official statement said.

Defence Minister Arun Jaitley said the submarine will add to India’s future naval power and make the oceans safe.

French company DCNS is collaborating with Mazagaon Dockyard Limited (MDL) for constructing the submarines.

Submarine Khanderi sailed out from Mumbai harbour for her maiden sea sortie on Thursday. This was was also the first major trial for her propulsion plant and a very important milestone in the construction programme, the statement said.

“The successful trial moved the submarine a significant step closer to her induction into the Indian Navy later this year. She will now be put through her paces via a rigorous set of trials, which are designed to test her operating envelop to the maximum,” the statement said.

Jaitley congratulated the engineers of MDL.

“Congratulations to MDL engineers as their efforts have moved the second Scorpene class submarine for surface sea trials. These Scorpene class submarines will not only add to our future naval power and strengthen defence but also make our ocean safe and secure,” Jaitley said in a series of tweets.

The Scorpenes submarines are being built by Mazagaon Dockyard Limited under Project 75 with transfer of technology from the collaborator, DCNS of France. Two of the submarines are ready, and rest four are under construction.

First of indigenous Scorpene submarine Kalvari is likely to be inducted in the Indian Navy by July-August.

Khanderi was launched on January 12 this year.

The state-of-the-art features of the Scorpenes include superior stealth and ability to launch a crippling attack on the enemy using precision guided weapons.

The attacks could be carried out with torpedoes, tube-launched anti-ship missiles both while underwater or on surface in all theatres, including the tropics, giving it invulnerability unmatched by many other submarines.

In another report,we seem to be assisting the Russians in circumventing uS sanctions on Russian banks ,so that we can acquire the extra 4 upgraded Talwar/GRigorivitch class of FFGs.sub/Kilo upgrades and other acquisitions.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19472/ ... TUE2ZKGOM8
India Exempts Russia's United Shipbuilding Corp From Banking Guarantee, side-stepping US Sanctions

Xcpts:

Instead, a sovereign guarantee from Russia will be accepted for the project, The Economic Times reported Friday.
The Indian government last week provided a special 'one-time exemption' to clear a project for upgrading and overhauling of a Kilo class submarines in Russia as part of an ongoing contract for the Indian Navy fleet.

Contracts worth over $5.5 billion were hit with the US imposed 'Specially Designated Nationals' (SDN) sanctions on Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), which were extended last year to include all entities attached to it.
“With the waiver made for the submarine overhaul, similar arrangements are expected to ensure that the inter-governmental agreement with India in October 2016 for the sale of four Project 1135.6 class stealth frigates also goes through,” an unnamed official was quoted by the publication as saying.
The frigate project also involves creating shipbuilding infrastructure at the Goa Shipyard that has been nominated by the defence ministry, with the Navy likely to procure engines and other parts from Ukraine to complete the four frigates.
Other Russian defence entities dealing with the defence sector in India may be brought under the sovereign guarantee system.

[rohitvats]

Boeing had released a PR yesterday or some days back, congratulating the Indian Navy fleet of P-8I for completing 10,000 flight hours since induction in 2015.

In comparison, a data-point released during retirement of TU-142 said that the entire fleet had accumulated 30,000 flying hours since their induction.

P-8I in IN service have flown 1/3rd of the entire flying hours accumulated by Bears over 20+ years in 2 years flat! Which is still more amazing at a/c came in staggered manner.

While the Tu-142 was always maintenance intensive, availability over last 4-5 years of their service in IN would not have been too great.

I guess this boils down to higher availability and better logistics of Boeing aircraft and increased tempo of ops in the Indian Ocean Region.

[JTull]

Boeing had released a PR yesterday or some days back, congratulating the Indian Navy fleet of P-8I for completing 10,000 flight hours since induction in 2015.

In comparison, a data-point released during retirement of TU-142 said that the entire fleet had accumulated 30,000 flying hours since their induction.

P-8I in IN service have flown 1/3rd of the entire flying hours accumulated by Bears over 20+ years in 2 years flat! Which is still more amazing at a/c came in staggered manner.

While the Tu-142 was always maintenance intensive, availability over last 4-5 years of their service in IN would not have been too great.

I guess this boils down to higher availability and better logistics of Boeing aircraft and increased tempo of ops in the Indian Ocean Region.

Wow!

[chola]

Boeing had released a PR yesterday or some days back, congratulating the Indian Navy fleet of P-8I for completing 10,000 flight hours since induction in 2015.

In comparison, a data-point released during retirement of TU-142 said that the entire fleet had accumulated 30,000 flying hours since their induction.

P-8I in IN service have flown 1/3rd of the entire flying hours accumulated by Bears over 20+ years in 2 years flat! Which is still more amazing at a/c came in staggered manner.

While the Tu-142 was always maintenance intensive, availability over last 4-5 years of their service in IN would not have been too great.

I guess this boils down to higher availability and better logistics of Boeing aircraft and increased tempo of ops in the Indian Ocean Region.

Western (US/EU -- which cross pollinate) aircraft, especially in terms of maintenance and reliability, is night and day versus every other industry in the world and that includes Russia's.

There is a reason why most airlines don't fly Tupolevs.

We make fun of the F-solah being old and obsolete but it is only obsolete to the US and its allies with access to the F-35. We get ANY of the teens' production line and we will be making things far in advance of any thing bharat had ever made before and that includes the MKI. Building an US aircraft would revolutionize our PSUs.

[Philip]

Solahs,...and get pasted the first time it even spars with a legacy MIG-29! Why the Pakis with their F-16s fled when locked on by our MIG-29s during Kargil.

The 30K flying hrs. for Bears seems precious little for an aircraft that has served over 2 decades.Maybe a few zeros were missed out! One must ck,. The type carry out regular runs testing western defences as strat. bombers,used extensively in the RuAF/RuN,used even in the Syrian conflictWhile one knows not what the relative lifetime is left in the airframes of the Bears,given their massive range and endurance,they type could be well utilised by the IN in the AEW role too. They could stay on station for more than double the time of our Phalcons without refuelling too.
If we were to use them in this role,

But ideally,it would be better to augment the number of Phalcons for ease of operations,commonality,etc.,than use Bears (better at LR maritime strike since P-8Is have taken over the ASW job).it would to an extent mitigate the fact that we do not have a Hawkeye type aboard our carriers using only AEW helos like the KA-31s. AEW/ELINT variants were developed by the Sovs. for the type earlier.The IN should press for a few Phalcons which could even operate from our island airbases enhancing their range. Since a new large CV will only arrive around 2030,with a Hawkeye type aboard,what will we do for the next 12+ years for the LRMP/AEW role ? The desi AEW bird on an EMB platform is too small and will lack range and endurance. The A-330 seems to have been dumped as a platform being too expensive. Had we gone through with the MTA.or even selected another alternative,that could've been used instead,but would've needed more numbers than Phalcons which are the best option,money being available.

[Singha]

saudi arabia and UAE have successfully leapfrogged to F-15S and F-16block60 levels !!

[Karthik S]

Those solahs didn't have BVR. The last derivates that pakis received Block 52 IIRC, have BVR. They won't be that easy if they are maintained well.

[Philip]

Our 29s too have been suitably upgraded.

http://defenceupdate.in/indian-air-forc ... n-mig-29s/

ndian Air Force Has A Clever Plan behind the Acquisition of Malaysian Mig-29s
BY DEFENCEUPDATE · PUBLISHED APRIL 9, 2017 · UPDATED APRIL 9, 2017

Indian Air Force is planning to acquire the retiring Mig-29N of Malaysian Air Force. Indian Air Force is very keen to buy Malaysian Mig-29N as confirmed by the Malaysian Prime Minster Najib Razak. This move of Indian Air Force is appreciated and criticized at the same time.

Indian Air Force has taken this step to stop the depleting fighter strength in the airforce. It doesn’t even have 70% of its fighters operational for any war like event. It is playing a smart card and has gone for a bartered deal this time. With this, Indian Air Force is willing to share the spare parts of its Su-30Mki with Malaysia. Malaysia needs spares of Su-30Mki for its Su-30MKM. Prime Minister of Malasia confirmed the barter deal between two nations “There is a possibility too that they (India) will buy our MiG 29 aircraft for refit. We reciprocate by accepting spare parts for our Sukhoi aircraft program,”.

Malaysian Mig’s are approximately 22 years old, which Indian Air Force is looking to procure and upgrade up to UPG level. Mig-29 UPG is currently one of the most advance Mig-29s in the world. The mig-29 upgrade includes ZHUK-ME AESA radar, RD-33 series 3 turbofan engine, IFR probe, an advanced weapon control system and avionics. The UPG upgrades will cost India $13 Million, and a new Mig-29 can cost up to $22 million dollars. Indian is cleverly saving $9 Million dollars on each aircraft. After the upgrade, the aircraft will have more strengths.

India hasn’t acquired second-hand jets for the first time. India Air Force acquired sparely used 10 Mirage 2000HS from France as Attrition replacement acquired sparely used 10 Mirage 2000HS from France as Attrition replacement.

READ Mahindra, Airbus sign pact to form joint venture for military helicopters
The decision of India is wise because these jets can serve the Indian Air Force for 15 years. Indian Air Force is trying to get these jets to fill the gap, making their fighter more deadly and maintain the strength of the air force until Rafael and the fifth generation fighters come into service.

Mig-29s might have a reputation of being Troublesome and Maintenance prone but no doubt are is still one of the IAF’s premier Air Defense fighters in India and still, carry a fearsome reputation with them. With Nearly 110 Mig-29s operated by Indian Air Force and Indian Navy combined, India is the Second biggest operator of Mig-29s in the world after Russia and when Malaysia asked Russia and India help in getting rid of its 25 years old Mig-29N, it was obvious India chipped in.
India has agreed to examine if 12 Mig-29N operated by Malaysian Air Force can be upgraded and entered back into service with Indian Air Force or can be brought back to be used as spares but relatively newer Mig-29s then its own fleet gives high hopes that IAF may agree to upgrade them to latest UPG version before Inducting them .
Malaysian Air Force in 2009 had quoted asking price of 300 Million Malaysian Ringgit for 16 Planes which came to 18.75 MR per Unit which translates into 4$ Million a Unit for India if the price holds or India might also be able to fetch more discounts from Malaysia is yet to be seen. Myanmar was the last country to procure Legacy Mig-29 jets based on the original air frame design from Russia at around 31$ Million a piece. Iran was the first Country which showed Interest in acquiring this jets from Malaysia and was the first client who was OK with the price too, but Malaysian government decided not to accept their offer.
India was always perhaps the only country Malaysia was comfortable to sell the Fulcrums without any difficulty, among all other Mig-29 operators. India and Malaysia might agree for a Barter Type of Deal where the exchange of Money might not happen and Malaysia might instead be paid back by the supply of spares for its Sukhoi-30MKM fleet.
According to Malaysian Media reports, RMAF MiG-29N are in good conditions with Few air-frames have exceeded 2,000 flight hours which once upgraded to UPG Standard in India will be able to serve India for another 15 years.

[brar_w]

The F-16 is a dead end platform and offers absolutely nothing to the Indian MIC. The only half decent argument I've heard for the Single Engine fighter is to relatively quickly increase squadron strenght concurrent to increase in orders for LCA and perhaps even MKI. That hardly warrants a 'single engine clause' as an absolute pre-requisite nor does it limit to a new platform.

The US has moved on to the F-22 and F-35 and now the Next Gen. PCA. The rapid pace of moving to these new systems cannot be understated. The F-16 beyond upgrades that keep it relevant is a dead end platform with little room to grow over the next many decades much like many other legacy aircrafts like for example the MiG-29.

On the P-8, its a high availability platform designed for XXXX hours of annual usage at baseline. I think the explicit requirements were 25 years, 25,000 maritime hours. Even the USN is putting good work on its P-8 deployments.

http://navaltoday.com/2017/04/18/u-s-na ... eployment/

While deployed, the Pelicans flew more than 3,700 hours of operations and completed more than 8,700 maintenance actions encompassing almost 33,000 maintenance man-hours.

In addition to their regular missions, the Pelicans had the opportunity to participate in numerous exercises throughout Europe.

In September, VP-45 crews flew ASW missions in support of exercise Northern Coast from Aalborg, Denmark and participated in the Malta International Air Show.

In October, crews flew ASW missions in support of exercise Cable Car from Lossiemouth, Scotland and participated in an airshow in Conigsby, England. Crews and support personnel participated in Turkish-led exercise Mavi Balina in November.

In March, exercise Dynamic Manta was supported from Sigonella, as well as exercise Joint Warrior in Lossiemouth, Scotland.

[Karthik S]

Our 29s too have been suitably upgraded.

Yet, things will be different, during kargil their planes didn't have BVR, therefore they had no other choice but to break the lock by escaping into their air space, this time it won't be as easy as both have BVR. But I am highly doubtful about their planes availability and reliability.

[chola]

Solahs,...and get pasted the first time it even spars with a legacy MIG-29! Why the Pakis with their F-16s fled when locked on by our MIG-29s during Kargil.

Filipov, please do not confuse the incompetence of pakis with the machines.

As for your propaganda of the MiG-29 lemon versus the F-16, I can do no more than --

LAUGH MY F-ing HEAD OFF!

http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/the-c ... n-use.html

Combat record of the F-16 Falcon vs MiG-39 Lemonski:

The Falcon has a 76-1 A2A kill record while the lemon has 6-18 record. Is like comparing a Lada to a Viper. the russian shit is not even close.

Air-to-air kills – Air-to-air losses – Losses to ground fire

F-16 Falcon 76-1-5
Gulf War (USA) 0-0-3
No-Fly Zones (USA) 2-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 4-0-1
Kosovo (USA) 1-0-1
Kosovo (Netherlands) 1-0-0
Kosovo (Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, Turkey) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0
Syrian border clashes 1979-1986 (Israel) 6-0-0
Operation Opera (Israel) 0-0-0
Lebanon War (1982) (Israel) 44-0-0
Lebanon War (2006) (Israel) 3-0-0
Intifada (2000-present) (Israel) 0-0-0
Soviet-Afghan War (Pakistan) 10-0-0
Border clashes (Pakistan) 1-0-0
Kargil War (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Northwest border wars (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Aegean Sea clashes (Turkey) 1-1-0
Venezuelan Coup 1992 (Venezuela) 3-0-0

MiG-29 6-18-1
Lebanon War 1982-2000 (Syria) 0-2-0
Gulf War (Iraq) 0-5-0
Transnistra War (Moldova, Russia) 0-0-0
Brothers in Rescue incident (Cuba) 2-0-0
Slovenian War (Yugoslavia) 0-0-0
Croatian War (Yugoslavia) 0-0-0
Bosnia (Serbia) 0-0-0
Kosovo (Serbia) 0-6-0
Kargil War (India) 0-0-0
Ethiopian-Eritrean War (Eritrea) 3-5-0
Georgian border violation 2008 (Russia) 1-0-0
Darfur War (Sudan) 0-0-1

[Philip]

Pl read above post.