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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 25 Aug 2017 21:14

Well,a sister ship of IAC-1 will arrive much faster than the first,5-7 years before any larger CV can be built and also be sued aboard our planned 4 amphibs!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 25 Aug 2017 21:16

So a new AC with larger elevators to accommodate an aircraft that would then not work on the other two carriers. :roll:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 25 Aug 2017 23:26

Don't want think about carriers any more. So much stuff to drive a bharati insane.

The lifts are just one of many.

Reports of no carrier for next 15 years, IN must beg MoD every few months for modern 65KT carrier, MiG-29K needs to be "ruggedized" for carrier ops; WTH? Is it a carrier aircraft or not? MiG-29K horrendous availabilty report by CAG, MiG-29K locked into Vikrant future by Russian consultancy in IAC-I's design, Vikrant itself delayed until 2023 for air ops in CAG, etc., etc.

OMFG.

Then I look at this and become much happier. Without doubt, the best IN carrier video I have ever seen :D


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 26 Aug 2017 01:02

chola wrote:Don't want think about carriers any more. So much stuff to drive a bharati insane.

The lifts are just one of many.

Reports of no carrier for next 15 years, IN must beg MoD every few months for modern 65KT carrier, MiG-29K needs to be "ruggedized" for carrier ops; WTH? Is it a carrier aircraft or not? MiG-29K horrendous availabilty report by CAG, MiG-29K locked into Vikrant future by Russian consultancy in IAC-I's design, Vikrant itself delayed until 2023 for air ops in CAG, etc., etc.

OMFG.

+100.

Only Mig-29Ks can operate on our carriers, and those Mig-29Ks are not reliable/navalized enough to operate on the carriers.
Wondering how we ended up in this situation.
:((

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 26 Aug 2017 02:32

srin wrote:Only Mig-29Ks can operate on our carriers, and those Mig-29Ks are not reliable/navalized enough to operate on the carriers.
Wondering how we ended up in this situation.
:((

We messed up during the design of the Vikrant.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2017 03:44

I wonder if those MiG-29Ks can't be handed over to the IAF. At least some use. The IAF can (perhaps) make use of them by replacing some of the systems and the hard landing issue will resolve (to some extent).

Vikramaditya - wonder what can replace MiG-29s on them. If at all.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2017 03:46

chola wrote:
sankum wrote:Failure to Launch
I didn't like the insinuation that the NLCA was the main reason for the naval air tender though. The reason for the tender was problems with the MiG-29K not the NLCA. NLCA is a work in progress, the 29K was and is the main aircraft slated for those carriers. If it were any good, the IN would have quietly ordered more and wait on the NLCA.


Its Angad Singh. He has a contempt for anything Indian made and ooh-aahs over the Gripen, this, that.

The current crop of new desi DM are no better than the Bedis etc of yore.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 26 Aug 2017 03:47

Karan M wrote:
chola wrote:


Its Angad Singh. He has a contempt for anything Indian made and ooh-aahs over the Gripen, this, that.

The current crop of new desi DM are no better than the Bedis etc of yore.

Well even the IN chief blamed the "inadequate LCA" rather than mention any problems with the Migs. That came out later.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 26 Aug 2017 03:50

brar_w wrote:So a new AC with larger elevators to accommodate an aircraft that would then not work on the other two carriers. :roll:


not necessarily a bad thing when you consider how long the Vikramaditya is going to be around ..15 yr at the most I guess

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 26 Aug 2017 03:55

Karan M wrote:Vikramaditya - wonder what can replace MiG-29s on them. If at all.

It can be made into a ASW Helo carrier. Like an oversized Izumo. But for that the Vikrant's lifts need to be enlarged somehow and an affordable replacement for the Mig-29K found. And a follow on successor to the Vikrant built with the same enlarged lifts to defray the loss of the Vikramaditya in the carrier role. Well nigh impossible.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2017 04:12

nachiket wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Its Angad Singh. He has a contempt for anything Indian made and ooh-aahs over the Gripen, this, that.

The current crop of new desi DM are no better than the Bedis etc of yore.

Well even the IN chief blamed the "inadequate LCA" rather than mention any problems with the Migs. That came out later.


Yes, and IMHO it took the focus of the discussion away from the flawed MiG-29K procurement.

Having said all that, Angad Singh's reportage is no better. He was busy castigating HAL for the Su-30 MKI issues, if he had even bothered to read the CAG report, he would have seen it was Russian delays through and through.

He was busy tweeting outrage over the 30% failure rate of the Akash. Missed two points though - the trials where this took place were til 2014 (and the ones thereafter were different) and the IAF did not store the missiles properly either.

His bias is overt.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 26 Aug 2017 04:54

kit wrote:..

not necessarily a bad thing when you consider how long the Vikramaditya is going to be around ..15 yr at the most I guess


Yeah just about as long as it took to refurbish and commission. Gotta hand it to the sharp negotiators on our side.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2017 05:48

^^ All said and done, the Vik will serve as a useful tool to retain our carrier skills. The dependence of the IAC-1 on a limited airwing only built around two types is more serious. We should change it if we can.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2017 07:59

chola wrote:


Those brave brave Naval Aviators flying the Migs!
This carrier is really cramped, and the 29 looks big by comparision

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 26 Aug 2017 08:35

Gagan wrote:
chola wrote:


Those brave brave Naval Aviators flying the Migs!
This carrier is really cramped, and the 29 looks big by comparision


The extremely tight spaces involved on the Vikramaditya were mentioned years ago in naval forums even during the conversion. The Kiev class was built specifically for the VTOL Yak-38 and helos.

This was the Baku/Adm Gorshkov as she was intended.
Image

Our brave men and women involved with making both this air wing AND this carrier work is a massive credit to them. Not only are spaces cramped with small margin for error, the position of the lifts on the center of the flight deck makes high tempo operations difficult and dangerous as well. Imagine any accident happening on a lift during recovery.

That said, pilots and crews trained with these tough conditions of the VikA would be razor sharp. The Vikrant with its modern deck layout would be a dream to land on for these guys. The sad thing with the Vikrant is we drank the Russian coolaid during the design of the lifts.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2017 08:38

The Vik should be used as a Helo carrier, fly the leftover Harriers and carry F-35s someday.
But with Mig-29s on board gives me a bad feeling.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 26 Aug 2017 08:58

Gagan wrote:The Vik should be used as a Helo carrier, fly the leftover Harriers and carry F-35s someday.
But with Mig-29s on board gives me a bad feeling.



The VikA/Gorshkov is what it is. It is Russian through and through. The IN will work with it.

The Vikrant OTOH bothers me to no fvcking end. It is our carrier and will be with us for at four or five DECADES because that is how long most carriers serve. We could have designed it like the French whose mid-sized carriers had oversized lifts and systems designed to accomodate future aircraft. The Foch, a 24K ton conventional carrier, was able handle the Rafale never mind the first rate Charles de Gaulle.

Instead we compromised the Vikrant completely with Russian equipment and ideas. Our carrier tradition is western in origin, from Sea Hawk to Sea Harrier. Now we are locking ourselves into the MiG-29K for our future along with the Russian procedures and practices that come with it.

And I had no idea that the Russians have their hooks set so deeply into the Vikrant until I saw this official reply from MiG on the 29K controversy:

"It should be mentioned that Vikramaditya and Vikrant aircraft carriers are tailored for carrying Russian-designed aircrafts including MiG-29K/KUB. All technical systems of the ship, radars and other deck-based systems were produced in Russia and were designed to be operated only with MiG aircrafts."


This sounded literally like a threat.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Aug 2017 11:05

Karan M wrote:I wonder if those MiG-29Ks can't be handed over to the IAF. At least some use. The IAF can (perhaps) make use of them by replacing some of the systems and the hard landing issue will resolve (to some extent).

Vikramaditya - wonder what can replace MiG-29s on them. If at all.

Su 33 mki, iirc they have a smaller wingspan when folded

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Aug 2017 11:13

We need to stop being alarmists and all save all this rnd.... They will sort out the fulcrum issues. There is absolutely no guarantee that other birds wouldn't have similar issues in the first 4 years operating on this type of carrier. yeah it's a compromise but hinting that it won't last past another few years is unnecessary and rather unwelcome.

The naviators are doing well and the ship is holding up fine. May they both have smooth seas and clear skies ahead.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 26 Aug 2017 17:46

Cain Marko wrote:We need to stop being alarmists and all save all this rnd.... They will sort out the fulcrum issues. There is absolutely no guarantee that other birds wouldn't have similar issues in the first 4 years operating on this type of carrier. yeah it's a compromise but hinting that it won't last past another few years is unnecessary and rather unwelcome.

The naviators are doing well and the ship is holding up fine. May they both have smooth seas and clear skies ahead.


I may be wrong but from what has been reported, the problems with the MiG-29s are not "VikA specific". They appear to be Carrier Ops specific which is kind of a big deal for a carrier based fighter. Perhaps they manifested because there were no comprehensive development and operational testing performed by the Russian OEMs because this wasn't at the time headed to them. I don't know why they are showing up on operational aircraft but as far as these specific issues are concerned (the ability to take the stresses of carrier operations) most other naval fighters exist in quantity and have put in hundreds of thousands to millions of cumulative flight hours in an operational context. Landing on a VikA is no harder in terms of aircraft stress than trapping on any other aircraft carrier. Similarly, the reliability and ruggedized components required to successfully conduct carrier operations are same across the board.

As I had written earlier, technical maturity often takes a significant time to settle down. The US services give this type of military hardware (fighter aircraft) 100,000 hours of cumulative flight time per type for the service and/or OEM to complete the feedback loop and stabilize on a particular reliability measurement. The IN consciously chose to invest in an aircraft that was a new type, and had not been put into service by its primary operator (Russian Navy) because it did not have any other choice and because it wanted to maintain and retain the carrier ops competencies that it has had for decades being the most experienced Navy in Asia as far as this skill set is concerned. So yeah there will likely be improvements identified and it will depend on how good the relationship is between the OEM and the now two operators and how quickly changes are pushed out to the fleet.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Aug 2017 09:59

While a bird like the shornet has been far more tested, I would hardly be surprised to see some issues pop up in the first few years of service. My point is It isn't the end of the world.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2017 12:24

Whatever glitches exist on the MIGs the Russians will have to sort out as they're also getting a few doz.If the NLCA arrives within the next 5 yrs.,it could still make an appearance,but if glitches resolved,more upgraded 29Ks with AESA radsrs,TVC nozzles,BMos-L,etc. will be on the cards.

Suggestion for the 4 amphibs.The RN is reducing the no. of F-35Bs for the QE carriers.We could design the flight deck with an angled deck+ ski-jump as in the new Vikrant and acquire 30-40JSFs
which the USMC are doing for their amphibs.The birds could also operate (deck only) from the two exg. carriers when they operate together.Vert.
landings as we've seen with years of SH
service,are v.safe.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Aug 2017 15:49

ah the mig 29... the naval version of the t-90!!!!!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 27 Aug 2017 17:11

Too bad the Indian navy cannot be blamed for using a carrier jet on carrier.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 27 Aug 2017 17:23

India to send 350 soldiers, 2 warships, aircraft for major tri-service combat exercise with Russia

Highlights

This will be the first time India will deploy manpower and assets from the Army, Navy and IAF together for a tri-service exercise with a country.
The aim is to crank up military-to-military ties with Russia, which has been India's largest defence supplier since 1960s
The “Indra” combat exercise will be held with Russia at Vladivostok from October 19 to 29.

NEW DELHI: India will dispatch around 350 soldiers, a multi-role stealth frigate, an anti-submarine warfare corvette and some aircraft for the major "Indra" combat exercise to be held with Russia at Vladivostok from October 19 to 29.

This will be the first time India will deploy manpower and assets from the Army, Navy and IAF together for a tri-service exercise with a country. The aim is to crank up military-to-military ties with Russia, which has been India's largest defence supplier since the early-1960s but without the armed forces of the two countries exercising much together.

India, in sharp contrast, holds several exercises with the US ever year, ranging from the top-notch naval Malabar wargames (with Japan as a regular participant now) to the counter-terror Vajra Prahar & Yudh Abhyas between their armies.

After the massive Malabar exercise in the Bay of Bengal in July, for instance, the Indian and American armies will now hold the Yudh Abhyas exercise at Joint Base Lewis-McChord in the US from September 14 to 27.

Officials say the Indra exercise's basic thrust will be on tri-Service operations in an integrated theatre scenario, with establishment and functioning of joint command structures and headquarters. "The two armed forces will also learn each other's doctrines, tactics, techniques and procedures for joint operations. The final planning conference for the exercise will be held in mid-September," said an official.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 27 Aug 2017 18:49

Cain Marko wrote:While a bird like the shornet has been far more tested, I would hardly be surprised to see some issues pop up in the first few years of service. My point is It isn't the end of the world.


It is not just about a lengthy, discovery--->correction--->verification loop laden Developmental test period, or the separate, land and sea based Operational test period but also operational experience over the last many years. Not to oversimplify things, I was merely referring to basic structural issues pertaining to the ability of the aircraft to handle carrier landings. Well over 500 Super Hornets and Growlers exist with the USN and have put in millions of cumulative flight hours over the years and can handle landing on an aircraft carrier without having a future customer going back to the OEM calling for the aircraft to be ruggedized for such ops. The Growlers routinely land with 2, sometimes 3 ALQ-99 pods, always with a pair of ALQ- 218s, and often an EFT if not a couple of AARGMs. The max. landing weight certified for the growler is in excess of 21.5 tons (something that will be required given the larger size and weight of the Next. Gen Jammer pods currently in development).

Just to put things in perspective, the first batch of the oldest Super Hornets is approaching its 6000 hr. design life and will be heading for a SLEP/SLAP in the next couple of years (aimed at extending the service life by another 3000 hrs) so they have been here a while doing carrier takeoffs and landings at the USN ops tempo which is pretty much the highest out of all carrier operating navies.

Image

There may well be other things a future customer may not be happy with and may wish to be changed, and this may apply to all new purchases, but this is about the very basic ability of a naval aircraft to trap on a carrier and do it repeatedly over its operational life. As I had pointed out, landing on a Nimitz is no different than landing on the VikA from an aircraft stress perspective. Taking off is different and more stressful for an airframe that has to be catapulted but that does not apply here. While your modeling may be off and you may require beefing up the structure at say 5000 hrs as opposed to a 6000 hr design life but what appears to be happening hear is that things are breaking down at the tactical level over a much shorter duration. These are literally brand new aircraft.
Last edited by brar_w on 27 Aug 2017 19:59, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 27 Aug 2017 18:55

:eek: :eek: :shock: :shock:
https://sputniknews.com/asia/201707111055442882-india-navy-submarine/

Four years after an accident and resultant operational issues, the Indian Navy sank the Russian-built Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhurakshak last month.


Naval sources told Sputnik the submarine capsized in the Arabian Sea and its resting point is 3,000 meters below the surface.
"When a warship is decommissioned, each and every nut and bolt is accounted for as it can be used on other vessels. The Sindhurakshak was a total write-off," a Navy official said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 27 Aug 2017 20:35

Yes, the Sindhurakshak was kept in the Navy's dockyard in Mumbai for a few years on a barge. The marcos practiced on her for a year or so.
She was taken to the arabian sea and 'laid to rest'

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby putnanja » 27 Aug 2017 21:27

Many old warships are used as target practise for missiles like Brahmos etc. Was anything similar one to Sindhurakshak ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 09:10

Indian Navy to have submarine hunter aircraft aboard all its warships
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017082510 ... -warships/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 09:12

Long Range surface-to-air missile handed over to Indian Navy
http://www.thehansindia.com/posts/index ... avy/322178

Jaitley hands over long-range surface-to-air missile to Navy
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 832349.ece

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 09:13

More muscle for India’s Andaman and Nicobar defence posts to counter hawkish China
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... iiJnK.html

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 09:15

Ex-officer alleges ‘nuclear treason’
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/e ... 562691.ece

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Aug 2017 10:19

Rakesh wrote:Ex-officer alleges ‘nuclear treason’
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/e ... 562691.ece


They seem to be quite happy sabotaging each other career if it means some professional gains to be made reminds me of BK Subbarao the spy who never was !

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2017 11:11

The manner in which China has within a jiffy constructed new naval bases armed with missiles,etc. ,created out of tiny atolls and reefs in the Indo-China Sea shows us up in v.poor light with our huge number of islands,far larger than any that China has developed,in the A&N theatre. It is sad that India always resorts to "knee-jerk" reactions,instead of being ahead of the curve with regard to our two mortal enemies.Nevertheless, the planned upgrades are very welcome,what we've been saying for over a decade on BRF,but must be completed within the shortest period of time!
Just like our border roads infrastructure,they languish with less than 40% completed despite far exceeding the allotted budget! The Modi regime must bring a far greater discipline within the DPSUs and other govt. entities associated with defence. For too long it has been the defence equiv. of another Air-India,if one takes an inventory of the projects approved,budget and timeframes of them and how many of them have ever entered srvice with the armed forces! The Kaveri engine scam is one of the prime examples.

Here however,under the watchful eye of the navy,one hopes for better,quicker results. We however must compare this programme of expanded infrastructure in the A&N islands with the success ratio of other projects like Seabird/Kadamba,and those on the east coast. The martitime defence of India begins in the east here. We must treat the A*N islands as if they were a sovereign country that needed defending and equip them with a v.powerful capability that can take the war into the Indo-China Sea,the Taiwan Straits and the Yellow Sea,in Pacific waters where our interests lie. LIke Pearl Harbour in Hawaii,which defends the continental US from any threat from the Far East,so too must the A&N islands be our equiv. A fully developed multi-dimensional mil. infrastructure which would include hardened sub pens for N-subs,etc., must also be established. Similar facilities though lesser in content (at least lengthened airstrips to accommodate all types of mil aircraft)must also be developed for Lakshadweep,since there are major naval and air facilities all along the western coast.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nash » 28 Aug 2017 15:46

Livefist‏Verified account @livefist

VIDEO: 'Super Hornet 100% compatible with Indian aircraft carriers,' says @BoeingDefense's Dan Gillian in this Q&A. https://www.facebook.com/Livefist/video ... 796168905/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 19:46

Boeing offers to set-up production facility for F/A18 fighter jets in India
http://www.india.com/news/india/boeing- ... a-2433133/

“Analytical and (computer) simulations have shown that the F/A-18 is compatible with the current carrier fleet of the Indian Navy. The results of the test have been submitted in response to a global RFI issued by the Navy,” said Pratyush Kumar, President, Boeing India.

“The overall life cycle cost is far lower than others,” Kumar said. “The Super Hornet has the lowest cost per flight hour which is even lower than Lockheed Martin’s F-16.”

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Aug 2017 20:10

Boeing PR uses USAF CPFH data with the USN CPFH data to market the Rhino as more cost effective. This is flawed because the USAF bases its F-16's differently and all US service O&S figures include manpower costs at both the unit and support levels. It also divides all of the logistical and ancillary costs associated with the enterprise over the total fleet hours flown. If one were to take a block 50 F-16, operate it out of just one base and then compare the O&S bill with a similar number of Super Hornets the former will likely be cheaper on account of being a smaller single engine aircraft.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 22:59

thank you for that nugget of info brar.

Indian Navy Carrier Jet War Hots Up, Boeing Focuses Fire
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/08 ... -fire.html

I think Boeing will likely win the naval competition. The F/A-18 is a great **navy** fighter and if we get Growlers along with the Rhinos, I would be truly happy. I would have preferred the F-35, but it does not fit.

...and (b) the Indian Navy contest will necessarily have synergies with the Indian Air Force’s future requirements.

Is that for the Rafale?

Added Later: And no Growler discussions as of yet...

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/902143848985444353


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