Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[chola]

Fire breaks out in INS Shivalik's engine room, doused after six hours.

A fire broke out in the engine storeroom of INS Shivalik on Wednesday. No casualties have been reported due to the fire.

Nuts. Between a frigate tipping over, the flooding of our SSBN from an open hatch and now this, we’re almost as bad as the US 7th Fleet who crashed or ran aground four destroyers and cruisers in the past year or so. Or maybe not really as bad.

[Philip]

6 hrs of fire could've caused large-scale damage if it had spread to the ER itself.It would've required a major firefighting effort by the crew to stop the blaze RN subs have their problems too,the new QE class CV ,the POW,had a leak in her "shaft",pun intended! , and the Germans,renowned for their reliability ,have no subs operational at all say reports!

[sum]

Fire breaks out in INS Shivalik's engine room, doused after six hours.

A fire broke out in the engine storeroom of INS Shivalik on Wednesday. No casualties have been reported due to the fire.

Nuts. Between a frigate tipping over, the flooding of our SSBN from an open hatch and now this, we’re almost as bad as the US 7th Fleet who crashed or ran aground four destroyers and cruisers in the past year or so. Or maybe not really as bad.

Saar you forgot the SSN Chakra being damaged in the list

[chola]

Running a modern navy is hard. We are with elite company onlee with the Americans, Germans and Brits!

[tsarkar]

we have enough steel technology in country to produce less magnetic steel than what is on that ship

And how did you come to that conclusion?

[Ajit.C]

Nitin Gadkari slams Navy for blocking floating jetty at Nariman Point

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 458125.cms

[Ajit.C]

He forget complete Indian coastline is a border. Anyway not a bad idea for Navy to take the cue and shift everything including the the docks to Karwar. Thus truly use Karwar for the purpose it was built for.

[dinesh_kimar]

^ tsarkar sir, he is right. DRDO has produced a variety of steels, incl. non- magnetic steel for submarine use. This was along with one of the SAIL plants. Seems possible.

[Bart S]

Nitin Gadkari slams Navy for blocking floating jetty at Nariman Point

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 458125.cms

I don't see any issue with his decision, but he really put his foot in his mouth there. Both the way of communicating and the tone of his statements were highly undesirable, coming from a senior cabinet minister.

[Indranil]

Nitin Gadkari slams Navy for blocking floating jetty at Nariman Point

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 458125.cms

I used to respect this guy. Lost it in an instant. I don't think I would be able to respect him again.

Won't give an inch in south Mumbai for Navy housing: Nitin Gadkari

The remark was made at a public event in Mumbai in the presence of Western Naval Command chief Vice Admiral Girish Luthra.
"Actually, Navy is needed at the borders from where terrorists sneak in. Why does everyone (in the Navy) want to stay in South Mumbai? They (Navy) had come to me, asking for a plot (of land). I will not give even an inch of land. Please don't come to me again," Gadkari said.
"Everyone wants to build quarters and flats on south Mumbai's prime land. We do respect you (Navy), but you should go to the Pakistan border and do patrolling."
...
A few important and senior officials can stay in Mumbai, Gadkari said, adding that land on the eastern seafront being jointly developed by the state-run Mumbai Port Trust and the Maharashtra government, would be utilised only for the benefit of local citizens.
...
Claiming that stopping such developmental work has become a habit, Gadkari wondered what has the Navy got to do with the Malabar Hill area which is primarily a private residential zone also having official residences of Maharashtra governor and chief minister.

"Where is the Navy at Malabar Hill? There is no Navy at Malabar Hill and the Navy has nothing to do in the area," Gadkari said and invited the Navy for talks to resolve the issue.

....
"We are the government. The Navy and the Defence Ministry are not the government," he added.

Who gives him this sense of entitlement?

[Karan M]

Very intemperate from Gadkari - he really should take more care, this is the Navy, not just another GOI dept.

And this entire "Navy and the Defence Ministry are not the Govt" - what the heck and "Navy should patrol off TSPN shores" , really?

Basically, looks like MOD/IN put a lot of pressure on him to release them land, and this guy became irritated and lashed out.

And it should not have been done. He should call a press release and announce that he has the highest respect for the IN and hence matter is resolved. He is one of the performing ministers of NDA and should not let such issues side track him.

Of course, this is assuming he was quoted verbatim. Knowing DDM and their hatred for current GOI, this might be a manufactured controversy, so lets hold off on the pitchforks and let GOI handle the issue. At any rate, respond they should and not let civil-military relationship be disparaged

[Rakesh]

Karan Saar, he said it....

[Rakesh]

These flats are the property of the GoI, not somebody's personal residence. They are meant for serving personnel, no? Are these retirement flats? This basic fact needs to be explained to him? The man is a minister for crying out loud. This man no longer deserves to be minister.

https://twitter.com/majorgauravarya/sta ... 4533301252 ---> Sir, never thought you could be so arrogant. You could have communicated your concerns to Navy in private but you insulted them in public. For what? Land in Mumbai? You could simply refused & written NO on the file. Shocked.

https://twitter.com/majorgauravarya/sta ... 0278069248 ---> Sir, I am not concerned about his intention. He insulted the Indian Navy in the presence of officers and men of the Navy. He made a public speech. He is a minister. He should be mature about it.

[hnair]

He had no other choice. Shree Gadkari had to do that to bring out the patriotism and love for the navy among the champagne liberals. Let us brace for a public display of that new found love for Navy among the Twitterati.

there is no other way to spin this gaffe

[Austin]

Karan M edit: Austin - I have edited your objectionable allegations. Please think twice before making such remarks, without any evidence against an elected figure on a public forum.

[tsarkar]

^ tsarkar sir, he is right. DRDO has produced a variety of steels, incl. non- magnetic steel for submarine use. This was along with one of the SAIL plants. Seems possible.

And how do you come to the conclusion that submarine steel == minesweeper steel?

Please read up on this matter. Whether submarine steels can be used for minesweepers or are actually used anywhere.

NMRL Ambarnath (joint DRDO Navy lab) & IIT Bombay have been researching since 80's without luck. It's not the material but fabricating techniques that is important as well.

IN Soviet Type 206 uses manganese steel (nearest comparison is mangalloy or Hadfield steel but not the same) that could not be reverse engineered.

[chola]

Karan M edit: Chola- Same as for the other poster above. Kindly stay on topic and don't make crude remarks against an elected figure on a public forum.

[negi]

Gadkari's words are unpolished perhaps insensitive and statement about patrolling tsp water even incoherent but those who know the ground situation would agree that Navy should slowly but gradually relocate from Mumbai; a congested civilian waterway alongside a naval presence is not only a security nightmare but the support structure i.e. residential blocks and other admin infra is also creaking and have no room to grow.

Navy was there much before the civilian development started that's a fact however we cannot change the situation now after rapid urbanization of mumbai , IN is facing a huge logistics nightmare in SoBo , folks on the outside might marvel at the posh Colaba and sea facing location however the fact is except for the top personnel the living quarters for even senior officers in Colaba are some of the worst I have ever seen , long waiting time for a residential unit , senior personnel having to share rooms in the mess are some of the long standing issues which have been the case since eternity . Mumbai has a very diverse IN presence in terms of departments I think IN should take the initiative and relocate those which have no strong reason to be in Mumbai to a location of their choice in the same region it is a win win for everyone specially for the IN as in theory new setup could be planned far better than existing facility which has no room to grow (sea bird is a fine example , very well planned and has enough scope for growth)

Now there could be ulterior motives at play here for the IN land is prime however it need not be handed over for any commercial development , idea should be to simply maintain a minimum presence in a congested city .

[Austin]

Till such time IN has WNC based out of mumbai it will have personal and logistics based in Mumbai be it colaba or other south mumbai.

Gadkari comment is based out of sheer arrogance then real concern for IN well being. Look at the way he talks IN came to me to ask for flats and I told them to get lost you wont get any.

Why dont they shift Vidhan Bhavan and MLA quarters out of mumbai to rural location in Maharashtra why do these need it in prime location in Mumbai , they can build commercial space there instead and earn revenue for the government in form of tax.

[krishna_krishna]

^ tsarkar sir, he is right. DRDO has produced a variety of steels, incl. non- magnetic steel for submarine use. This was along with one of the SAIL plants. Seems possible.

And how do you come to the conclusion that submarine steel == minesweeper steel?

Please read up on this matter. Whether submarine steels can be used for minesweepers or are actually used anywhere.

NMRL Ambarnath (joint DRDO Navy lab) & IIT Bombay have been researching since 80's without luck. It's not the material but fabricating techniques that is important as well.

IN Soviet Type 206 uses manganese steel (nearest comparison is mangalloy or Hadfield steel but not the same) that could not be reverse engineered.

Tsarkar small nitpick Pondicherry class has soviet designation of type 266 (and not 206) built by SNSZ, st.petersburg. secondly I understand that it is difficult steel type but not impossible , Jindal steel plant in Orissa has supplied such slab to Siemens and so is SAIL capable of delivering nickel alloy steel. Secondly there is also possibility of using aluminum hull instead of low magnetic hull.

World is moving totally away from steel for minesweeper for ex. Russians are using fiber glass for its Alexandrit class latest minesweeper with remote vehicles and same with South Koreans. But we can definitely start with what we have and do a better than at least what is in our hands. That way you get to learn the learning curve (give it to L&T or Bharat forge) completely private venture, this is where leadership and imagination comes into play. Knowing IN has always supported indigenous development. I choose to support this via whatever I could do via letters etc., vs. doing nothing.

[krishna_krishna]

Till such time IN has WNC based out of mumbai it will have personal and logistics based in Mumbai be it colaba or other south mumbai.

Why dont they shift Vidhan Bhavan and MLA quarters out of mumbai to rural location in Maharashtra why do these need it in prime location in Mumbai , they can build commercial space there instead and earn revenue for the government in form of tax.

+10000, start with malabar hills. politicians needs to live and work near their most needed section of the society. How about near dharavi for starters.

This is why we should be shameful for not giving enough due to armed forces. He could have privately said no (again improper when national security is involved) but this is sheer arrogance at par with UPA

[tsarkar]

I understand that it is difficult steel type but not impossible , Jindal steel plant in Orissa has supplied such slab to Siemens

Can you substantiate your statement that Jindal Orissa has supplied minesweeper grade steel to Siemens?

so is SAIL capable of delivering nickel alloy steel.

Does Nickel Alloy steel have the same shock resistance and amagnetic capabilities as Manganese Steel? Is an apple the same as an orange?

Secondly there is also possibility of using aluminum hull instead of low magnetic hull.

What is the shock resistance of aluminium? Do you realise that in addition to being amagnetic, the material must have superior shock resistance. Which is why no minesweeper in the world is built of aluminium.

World is moving totally away from steel for minesweeper for ex. Russians are using fiber glass for its Alexandrit class latest minesweeper with remote vehicles and same with South Koreans.

Most fibreglass minesweepers in the world, including US & Korea are based on the Italian Lerici/Gaeta class. Even the US failed to build its own and imported Italian ones

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lerici-class_minehunter

In August 1986, following the cancellation of a 17-strong mine warfare ship class after the prototype failed shock testing, the United States Navy placed an order for a mine warfare ship based on the Lerici class.

Now material is only one part of the equation. The other part is the fabrication. The Lerici and Korean hulls have to be fabricated overnight and within 3 days to ensure structural integrity & shock resistance. It's the exact process for which ToT is required.

But we can definitely start with what we have and do a better than at least what is in our hands. That way you get to learn the learning curve (give it to L&T or Bharat forge) completely private venture

L&T and Bharat Forge, the latter having never built a rubber dinghy would surely do a better job than NMRL and IIT Bombay. Did you realise the RFP and ToT route was taken only because domestic efforts failed. Something even the US couldn't successfully do?

This is where leadership and imagination comes into play.

Absolutely. The NMRL and IIT Bombay chaps so lacked imagination. English and TED talks solves so many technology problems than Physics.

[ArjunPandit]

Till such time IN has WNC based out of mumbai it will have personal and logistics based in Mumbai be it colaba or other south mumbai.

Gadkari comment is based out of sheer arrogance then real concern for IN well being. Look at the way he talks IN came to me to ask for flats and I told them to get lost you wont get any.

Why dont they shift Vidhan Bhavan and MLA quarters out of mumbai to rural location in Maharashtra why do these need it in prime location in Mumbai , they can build commercial space there instead and earn revenue for the government in form of tax.

I think Navy should simply say, in war time they can't guarantee the safety of the jetty. This is the sad thing about our democracy and we have to live with it, as much as I dislike about it and would like to change. This is the better reality we live in.

[A Deshmukh]

It is said that the true test of character comes not when a person is without any power, but when a person has full of power.
NG comes out as arrogant with power. Same complaint people had against local gujarat BJP.
Thank God, we have Modi as PM and not NG.

Apart from NG, imho, Navy should not be in Mumbai for
- security reasons - difficult to prevent USS Cole kind of attack.
- movements of naval ships can be easily tracked in Mumbai.
- waters in Mumbai are muddy - not sure if this works against sonar and submarines and securing these assets. not sure, if uw mines can be detected easily.

Having said that, there may be a weakness on the other side also.
I have seen Defence officers wanting a luxury of city life, after serving a period of hardship posting. enjoying the city as well as private secluded facilities. They want to be considered 'special', when the rest of city is struggling with infrastructure issues.
NG seems to been bugged by requests for flats.

He could have said No in private. Also Defence Officers need to be in sync with rapidly growing city's infrastructure needs.

[Aditya_V]

I hope the PM pubically pulls N Gadkari, since his comments were in poor taste and crass.

[Philip]

V.poor taste indeed and arrogance displayed.If the IN personnel are housed miles away from the base and dockyard,how on earth will they be able to
respond in time during an attack from the Pakis? Saying that the "navy must go to Pakistan" instead also betrays his woefuul knowledge of mil. matters.
Yes,by all mans Mr.minister,send them close to the Pakis so they can attack our warships and subs in a sneak attack.

Mr.Gadkari must spend a few days at sea with the navy to understand how it operates,especially on board a sub,but then he wouldn't be able to squeeeze through the hatch,neither can he be loaded through the torpedo tubes!

This is where our DM,NS must come forth boldly for the IN.She should take up the issue of naval housing with the PM and Maharashtra CM too. A jetty for fun and games somewhere between NP and Malabar hill can I'm sure be accommodated,but ensuring the security of the Indian coastline is the responsibility of the IN and CG.One cannot make crass jibes at the IN the way he has.An apology should be obtained.

[tsarkar]

Firstly, the largest Naval Dockyard where ships are refitted with 10,000 employees is at Bombay. Create and new dockyard and relocate 10,000 people and there will be no qualms. But having a dockyard in South Bombay and expecting employees and officers to stay elsewhere doesnt work practically, does it? Especially with number of ships increasing.

Secondly, Bombay has India's largest oil storage at Butcher Island, largest shipping traffic for import & export via MbPT and JNPT and 60% of GoI annual revenue income (direct + indirect taxes) comes from this one city.

So yes, please do throw the Navy out. Good luck when Pakistani missile boats with Babur/Harba missiles come over for potshots and you've to summon Naval vessels from Karwar to defend.

Now on Rashmi Development Ltd. This company misrepresented response from IN, ICG & Mumbai police in Bombay High Court as NOC. The court found them guilty.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 020238.ece

The petitioner claimed that the proposed project already had NOCs (no objection certificates) from the Maharashtra Tourism Development Corporation (MTDC), the Western Naval Command, the Mumbai Metropolitan Regional Development Authority, the Coast Guard and the city police.

The High Court, in its order, noted that the letters issued by the city police, the Western Naval Command and the Coast Guard on the issue were misconstrued by the company as NOCs.

“The Western Naval Command had never granted NOC for erection of the floating hotel. All that their letter records is that the safety and security issues will have to be examined first,” the bench said.

“Even the Coast Guard in its letter says that a security audit will have to be carried out first before permission is granted for construction of a floating hotel and jetty,” it said.

I highlighted the word Safety in WNC letter. Here is why. This is Mumbai monsoon sea state -



People can compare the height of lamp post with the height of wave lashing the pillar. The sea link lamp post is taller than normal road lamp post. Cars are not even visible. A floating hotel would be so safe!

Hotels like Burj Al Arab have deep foundations and breakwaters to keep them safe. The not so apparent engineering under and around keeps them safe.

This was another Adarsh scam in the making. India is never short of Jaichands and Mir Quasims who for pennies throw away the nation.

[Kersi]

Very intemperate from Gadkari -
Basically, looks like MOD/IN put a lot of pressure on him to release them land, and this guy became irritated and lashed out.
]

Looks like the builder lobby put a lot of pressure on him NOT to release the land

[yensoy]

1. Gadkari's comments were crude and offensive, no two ways about it.
2. I have all along held that Navy must move out of Mumbai. All eggs in one basket is never a good thing. WNC should move to Karwar; Mumbai presence and importance in naval matters should be reduced over time.
3. Not a square inch of land should be given up by Navy; only possibility is to set up commercial co-development with finite term leases, if that. Even with a big move out, there will be enough of a Navy, CG and paramilitary presence needed in Mumbai for which these lands can be used.
4. Naval flats are not just for navy officers & sailors, they are for their families. ************ when he says "go patrol in Pak border" - effectively reducing the sacrifices of Navy families to zero.
5. A South Mumbai flat is a big incentive. Over time, if other areas can be well developed - with good facilities for schooling, hospitals and potentially professional opportunities for spouses, then the draw to Mumbai will reduce. This must happen.
6. Even as things currently stand, there is enough land in Navy nagar to demolish some old lowrises and put up modern 40 storey towers. Navy doesn't need to get FSI and such permissions from BMC. And if the flats can be built in a way to cast a long shadow on mantralaya, that would be even better (just joking of course).

Mod note: Karan M: cut out the unparliamentary language please.

[Karan M]

Moderator Note: It is ok to express your displeasure against Mr Gadkari's remarks and contest them. Please do so in a civilized fashion - kindly do not make allegations of personal or fiscal impropriety without evidence or attack his looks etc. This is a public forum and please act accordingly.

[Karan M]

Very intemperate from Gadkari -
Basically, looks like MOD/IN put a lot of pressure on him to release them land, and this guy became irritated and lashed out.
]

Looks like the builder lobby put a lot of pressure on him NOT to release the land

He has some pretty ambitious plans for Mumbai development from what I gather. He must have been irritated like heck to see IN proposals scuttling/delaying his plans & hence he openly remarks as such and the intemperate remarks. Also, we have to remember the inter department dynamics in any GOI. From the reports, the IN's comments have the MOD's backing. Gadkari likely felt slighted as to why his pet projects were being delayed by another ministry.

All this said, his remarks were extremely intemperate and show him & the GOI in a bad light after all the effort put in by Modi & his team to drive a positive civil-military relationship, let alone being unsuitable for a minister of his level. I hope these gaffe's dont occur again and second, Gadkari makes a public statement about the IN issue being addressed and reiterating his respect for the IN.

[Philip]

NG has good ideas when it comes to developing waterways for transport, etc.Fast ferries on the Ganga seaplanes, etc.He is a man in a hurry.However the 3 services work in the most hostile of environments braving the fury of nature while keeping our enemies at bay, sacrificing each year hundreds of lives in safeguarding the nation.In the fitness of things he should quickly apologise and bury the incident fast not allowing it to linger on.This govt. has made a lot of progress in restoring morale in the armed forces and working to clear the backlog of decisions in "cobweb mahal", the MOD.The good work and PR also done so far should not go down the drain.

[Vips]

Indian Navy decommissions warships INS Nirbhik and INS Nirghat.

[ragupta]

A better idea would be to take up land accross the trans harbor and build a township, where they can support few thousand Navy families. There are several such township, with malls, hospitals and schools, sports facility etc near Mumbai. They can expedite the development by leasing and sub contracting to private parties. With the new airport and trans harbor link coming up, it could be developed in the same time frame, it would ease out problem in Colaba.

[A Deshmukh]

A better idea would be to take up land accross the trans harbor and build a township, where they can support few thousand Navy families. There are several such township, with malls, hospitals and schools, sports facility etc near Mumbai. They can expedite the development by leasing and sub contracting to private parties. With the new airport and trans harbor link coming up, it could be developed in the same time frame, it would ease out problem in Colaba.

+1

[krishna_krishna]

What is the shock resistance of aluminium? Do you realise that in addition to being amagnetic, the material must have superior shock resistance. Which is why no minesweeper in the world is built of aluminium.

I do not claim to be best physicist in the world but your post suggest you have no clue about what you are talking about.

I suggest you please do some research before you comment on a post. Here are two examples of minesweeper made from alluminium :

1) Soviet Navy: Natya 2 class minesweeper (although only one was build) which is a follow up to original natya class that we still use.
2) Royal Navy , Royal Australian navy, Indian navy : Google ton class minesweepers.

Now material is only one part of the equation. The other part is the fabrication. The Lerici and Korean hulls have to be fabricated overnight and within 3 days to ensure structural integrity & shock resistance. It's the exact process for which ToT is required.

Please read my post I agree that new fibre glass is holy grail fo the new generation of minesweepers. I never said you do not need ToT for the newer fiberglass ones. Read Alexandrit class for Russian navy, IN asked for ToT for the same and ruskies agreed. However navy wants to see the performance of the first ship before buying it.

What I am saying is with new ones with all the bells and whistle ones not coming in horizon, it can be taken as a project to built minesweepers with the low magnetic hulls similar to what we operate currently

L&T and Bharat Forge, the latter having never built a rubber dinghy would surely do a better job than NMRL and IIT Bombay. Did you realise the RFP and ToT route was taken only because domestic efforts failed. Something even the US couldn't successfully do?

I know L&T has fabricated hulls for our nuclear submarines and Bharat forge does machinery components both in marine and oil& gas industries, please let me know how many ships (or rubber dinghy) NMRL and IIT Bombay have constructed ?
Masssa hawa ? just because it could not do does not mean we cannot do it. Exactly we need help but that is for the latest tech not the old ones

Absolutely. The NMRL and IIT Bombay chaps so lacked imagination. English and TED talks solves so many technology problems than Physics.

I personally don't mean any disrespect to NMRL and IIT Bombay however since they were not able to make it do you think they lack imagination when Koreans are able to do it ?

I do not know about English and TED talks but you believe laws of physics apply differently to NMRL and IIT Bombay then rest of the world.

This is my last on this, I have big respect for NMRL and IIT however you cannot say that they are the last word in the world of physics in India. But this attitude of holier than thou is what is bogging down our military development complex in private space. NMRL infact has its lab at naval dockyard unused lying there with no utilization but that is OT for this thread.They were not successful fine but that does not mean its impossible in India , since we do not know when it was tried , how long back and what was the scope. I again reiterate we have engineering and technology know how to re -engineer/construct low magnetic metallic hull minesweepers in the country.

[Austin]

INS Kalvari S-21 SSK's On-Board Systems & Fitments

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 8991200258 --> Gripen M will have exactly the same outstanding performance and operational capabilities as the multi-role Gripen E, and will offer India a common fighter for air force and navy squadrons.

[Rakesh]

Link below has video. Must see. These pilots who fly these birds are truly amazing.

https://twitter.com/vishnundtv/status/9 ... 8445658112 --> First ever footage on Indian Navy MiG-29Ks landing at night in pitch darkness on the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy looking at more P-8I submarine killers
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 484276.cms