Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Dec 2017 19:50

Yes. Nice. Our people are learning to make the sort of videos that need to be made..

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 Dec 2017 20:42

Vips: I am moving your post to the Indian Nuclear Submarines thread. Please let us post all the news and have discussions, in that one thread.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Dec 2017 09:27

Chennai to become crucial naval base - The Hindu

Chennai will become an important naval base in future and nearly 100 acres of land in East Coast Road will be acquired for this project.

Rear Admiral Alok Bhatnagar, Flag Officer Commanding - Tamil Nadu and Puducherry Naval Area, while speaking on board INS Sumitra, said, they would require this space to build the Naval support infrastructure.

“Initially, Muttukadu was considered; but now, we have dropped that and looking at other villages in ECR. This apart, we already have land in Saidapet. These efforts are to expand our footprint here; we are also holding discussions with Chennai Port in this regard,” he said.

But he refused to comment on what the budget estimate for this expansion will be and how long it may take for this process to be complete.

He noted that Tamil Nadu and Puducherry have assumed primacy in the overall maritime security calculus and in Tamil Nadu, they are at an advanced stage of consultation towards expansion.

Mr. Bhatnagar said they will acquire land at Ramanathapuram too for expansion.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Dec 2017 13:20

Wow. That is going to be one expensive base! Doubt there is much shore land until you hit Kalpakkam.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Dec 2017 13:57

Prasad wrote:Wow. That is going to be one expensive base! Doubt there is much shore land until you hit Kalpakkam.

East Coast road goes all the way down to Pondy. There's probably some land closer to Pondicherry?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 02 Dec 2017 14:35

shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:Wow. That is going to be one expensive base! Doubt there is much shore land until you hit Kalpakkam.
East Coast road goes all the way down to Pondy. There's probably some land closer to Pondicherry?

100 acres is huge considering the distance from ECR to the sea is quite low, few hundred meters to 1 km for most part of the stretch. Need to see where they'll squeeze such a big base. But looks like it's chosen for strategic location than availability of land. May be to keep an eye on SL.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Dec 2017 14:38

shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:Wow. That is going to be one expensive base! Doubt there is much shore land until you hit Kalpakkam.
East Coast road goes all the way down to Pondy. There's probably some land closer to Pondicherry?

Yeah, there are only two places, AFAIK. One, it has to be south of Kalpakkam, either just before or just after the creek. Or, it could be before Marakkanam.

When the base was announced in c. 2015, I was expecting it to come up north of Kattuppalli, after the L&T harbour. May be, it then goes so close to Pulicat and Sriharikota.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Dec 2017 16:40

Looking at Google earth - north towards Sriharikota seems more likely in retrospect. Marakkanam rings so many bells. That used to be a pristine beach where I (along with some classmates) swam in the sea for the first time decades ago..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Dec 2017 02:42

Indian Navy should also try Kamov 226T choppers: Russian firm
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-in ... rm-2564298

With the government clearing the mega-project to acquire 111 helicopters for the Indian Navy, a leading Russian manufacturer wants the Navy to try its Kamov 226T helicopter, saying the chopper aptly meets the force's needs. "We think of the Kamov Ka-226T JV with India as a synergistic project with further possibilities. For instance, the Indian Navy has recently announced a tender for delivery of 100 (111) helicopters with a mass of up to 5 tonnes. We think it might be good move for Indian ministry for defence to save their money and purchase Kamov 226T with its latest modifications, because we already have solutions of folding blades in the place.

"And of course following the framework of Make in India project we will be actively involved in localising the assembly and production of this helicopter on Indian soil," CEO of Russian Helicopters Andrey Boginisky told a visiting foreign media delegation last night. Under the Indo-Russia joint venture to produce 200 Kamov 226T helicopters for the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force, 60 choppers will be supplied to India in fly-away condition, while the remaining 140 will be manufactured in India under a USD 1 billion deal inked in 2015. In October last year, India and Russia finalised a broad agreement for the joint venture between Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and two Russian defence majors. India is procuring Kamov choppers to replace its ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters.

The agreement for the Kamov choppers was signed during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Russia in December, 2015. Last year, Russian Helicopters, Rosoboronexport and HAL had almost completed the formalities for the joint venture to localise the production of Ka-226Ts and deliver them to the Indian market. The joint venture was registered in May, 2017. Stressing that Ka-226T meets the requirements of the Indian Navy, Boginisky clarified that the Navy's project for 111 helicopters is a separate project and is not related to the Ka-226T project of the Indo-Russian JV to produce 200 Kamov helicopters. He added that selecting the Ka-226T for the Navy could help the Indian government save a lot of money, as there would be cost reduction due to sharing of service facilities, training for flight and maintenance and other related costs.

"Given the first project, this could be an advantageous option for India, as it would already have facilities for maintenance," he said. When asked about the export prospects of Mi-8/17 and Mi- 171 helicopters, Boginisky said, "We consider that the export potential of these machines is still there. It is proven by a deep modernization to develop the Mi-171A2 model, which includes more than 80 changes and improvements to the platform. The Indian Ministry of Defence uses many helicopters of this family. It is very reliable and easy to use in any conditions".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2017 10:42

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQGN23dVQAUAqyd.jpg:large

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Dec 2017 21:03

Navy Telefilm of 20 minutes duration will ne telecast at 2130 h on 04 Dec 17 (English on Doordarshan India and Hindi on Doordarshan National). Promos will be telecast 03 Dec 17

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 03 Dec 2017 22:12

shiv wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQGN23dVQAUAqyd.jpg:large

I can't think of many places worse than stormy cold seas at night. Excellent work by the SAR team!

But amazing stuff this also :

A P8i Maritime patrol aircraft of the navy relayed the position of a suspected man among the wreckage of the fishing boat

What superb quality and capability sensors and optics

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 03 Dec 2017 23:26

Weren't our coastal surveillance radars supposed to track even fishing boats from the coast? If so, why did we need the Boeing P8I to track ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Dec 2017 02:36

SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote: East Coast road goes all the way down to Pondy. There's probably some land closer to Pondicherry?
Yeah, there are only two places, AFAIK. One, it has to be south of Kalpakkam, either just before or just after the creek. Or, it could be before Marakkanam.

When the base was announced in c. 2015, I was expecting it to come up north of Kattuppalli, after the L&T harbour. May be, it then goes so close to Pulicat and Sriharikota.

Provides more cover and depth I suspect for submarine operations and marine special ops .. expect more sub communication facilities and long range comms and electronic warfare stuff .. good place for an OTH radar I would say !

maz · Post by **maz** » 04 Dec 2017 03:53

Philip wrote:Can someone confirm this.

An ad for recruitment to the IN,features pics of 2 Delhi class DDGs.,with one interesting detail.Instead of the 4 quad Uran launchers on either beam on either side of the Shtil and RBUs launchers,there are instead shown a new single multi-missile launcher with two tiers of 3 missiles in each,making it 6 missiles per launcher. Are these missiles BMos or Klub? From the pic,and one might be wrong,they appear to be larger than the Uran canisters.The two DDGs are from their radars,etc.,from the first batch of 3 Dlehi DDGs.12 BMos or Klub would be a much batter anti-ship missile package than the subsonic Urans.These may be refitted onto smaller attack craft ,smaller warships like our P-28s (which lack any sort of anti-ship missile),or even for shore batteries.

Is there a picture of the Delhi's with the new SSM launchers? Please post a picture.

Avtar Singh · Post by **Avtar Singh** » 04 Dec 2017 04:44

Why does the IN Ensign still have a red cross?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Dec 2017 05:39

^^^ Avtar, when India got Independence in 1947, the Indian Naval Ensign consited of ---> St George's Cross (Red Cross) and the Union Jack. In 1950, when India became a Republic...the Union Jack was dropped and the Indian tricolour was put in its place. But the St George's Cross stayed. That flag was used for 51 years, when in 2001 the St George's Cross was removed and replaced with the Indian Navy ensign. However by 2004, the St George's Cross came right back. The reasoning was the flag was hard to distinguish. Why, I have no clue. Just remember from memory (13 years ago now). In 2014, the flag was amended again and the State Emblem of India was placed in the middle. The words Satyameva Jayete was added late in 2014 also. And that is the flag that is still used by the IN today.

Because the modern Indian Navy has her history interwined with the Royal Indian Navy, many of the traditions that the Royal Indian Navy practised back then, is still followed today. Indianization has taken place and rightfully so, but traditions are sometimes hard to drop in the absence of another alternative. The other two services - especially the Army - do the same.

Click on the link below to see the changes the Indian Naval Flag went through, over the course of 70 years.

Indian Naval Ensign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Naval_Ensign

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Dec 2017 10:11

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/937335752681287681 ---> Incredible skill by Indian Navy chopper pilot, Captain P. Rajkumar. In pitch darkness - without night vision goggles - off Kerala coast 10 feet over raging sea swell, he rescues a lone fishing boat survivor.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Dec 2017 12:11

maz wrote:
Philip wrote:Can someone confirm this.

An ad for recruitment to the IN,features pics of 2 Delhi class DDGs.,with one interesting detail.Instead of the 4 quad Uran launchers on either beam on either side of the Shtil and RBUs launchers,there are instead shown a new single multi-missile launcher with two tiers of 3 missiles in each,making it 6 missiles per launcher. Are these missiles BMos or Klub? From the pic,and one might be wrong,they appear to be larger than the Uran canisters.The two DDGs are from their radars,etc.,from the first batch of 3 Dlehi DDGs.12 BMos or Klub would be a much batter anti-ship missile package than the subsonic Urans.These may be refitted onto smaller attack craft ,smaller warships like our P-28s (which lack any sort of anti-ship missile),or even for shore batteries.
Is there a picture of the Delhi's with the new SSM launchers? Please post a picture.

Did it look something like this but with an extra missile pod top & bottom? 3 x 3 layout instead of 2 x 2 on the Rajputs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Dec 2017 14:44

Nein.It was a "six-pack",3 on top,3 below.Will hunt for the ad.,replacing the two quad Urans on either side of where B and C turrets used to be,now fitted with Shtil and the MBUs.

100 acres for a principal naval base is a miserable amt. of space! One needs say 100o acres as it has to encompass the naval settlement for officers and sailors,technical staff,etc.,housing,school,recreational facilites,etc.This alone will req. at least 25-50 acres.You then need spaced as far away as poss. from other facilities,the oil tank farm,magazines,etc. from the naval wharfs/quays,piers/jetties,etc. You than have some level of repair facilities for warships and subs.Docks open and covered.Warehouses for all sorts of naval gear. Since L&T's Katupalli yard is not too far up the coast,any heavy repair can be carried out there. The "Ark" naval air station which houses our P-8Is,Do-228s,etc.,is also not too far off flying time wise,but if 1000 acres+ can be obtained,then there is a possibility of also adding a naval air station as well.Will there be facilities for our carriers to berth too? Like Adm. Stan Dawson who was the architect of the Karwar naval base,the IN /MOD should go all out in conceptualising this new proposed naval base.It may take years to complete in full,but the most important task is to acquire as much land as poss. and not limit the imagination. Tuticorin already has a good deal of infrastructure,plus an airport.The IAF have been allotted over 100 acres in the 600 acre expansion of the airport.With SAC close by at Trivandrum in the S-West (supposed to operate fighters at some point in time) ,Sulur in the N-West-to house LCAs,etc.,and the Tanjore Air Force Stn. in the N-east,Tuticorin would be better placed with a naval air station instead of another IAF station which perhaps would be superfluous. MKIs are stationed at Tanjore too. A dedicated naval air station able to operate all IN aircraft including the runway/facilities for LRM{P would be able to monitor the whole of SL and the Maldives ,L'Dweep,DG,upto the A&M islands which have their own IAF and IN bases being expanded.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Dec 2017 19:50

Navy Day today.Let's raise 3 cheers to our gallant officers and sailors of the IN of the past and rpesent,esp. those heroes who lit the sky wth glory on that fateful night at Karachi with their little Osa missile boats.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/46th-ind ... 41141.html

Xcpt:

46th Indian Navy Day: All you need to know about Operation Trident and the force's 'silent service'
IndiaFP StaffDec, 04 2017
Navy Day is observed annually on 4 December to celebrate the Indian Navy's achievements and commemorate the sacrifices made by its personnel. But the specificity of the date holds an underlying story of the force's valour, that brought victory for India in the 1971 war against Pakistan.

The date commemorates the launch of Operation Trident, a devastating attack on the Pakistan Naval Headquarters of Karachi during the 1971 war. During the attack, three Vidyut-class missile boats, two anti-submarine vehicles and a tanker of the Indian Navy successfully sank the enemy's minesweeper, a destroyer and an ammunition supply ship......

titash · Post by **titash** » 04 Dec 2017 21:19

Very interesting picture this.

Not only does the Rajput (the OLDEST Kashin...almost 36 years now) have 8 Brahmos anti-ship missiles, it also sports the 3D CAR based Revathi radar and Varuna ESM. It's pretty clear that the navy thought the hulls were good enough to invest in continual mid life upgrades.

What's even more interesting is that the Godavari class are newer ships but are being retired faster than the older Kashins. I guess the benefits of a big hull and thicker steel plating speak for themselves.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Dec 2017 22:19

Absolutely love the Rajput class. The above config is like a mini-slava class cruiser.

The mast is very tall, probably taller than Kolkata class MFSTAR even?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2017 22:31

very cluttered and complex topside design even by russian stds.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Dec 2017 23:35

Splendid work by CG/IN in saving lives in recent storm! And, also in PR with videos et al.

(Apologies for earlier typo, darn auto corrections)

John · Post by **John** » 05 Dec 2017 03:18

Aditya G wrote:Absolutely love the Rajput class. The above config is like a mini-slava class cruiser.

The mast is very tall, probably taller than Kolkata class MFSTAR even?

Can’t speak for Rajput but mast for MFSTAR is about the same height as half plate radar in Delhi. The height of Kolkata mast are bit hard to visualize because of their superstructure but they are much taller than talwar for example even though it doesn’t look like that.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Dec 2017 12:28

I'm frankly amazed at how long the Rajput/Kashins have served and the many upgrades/improvements made to them.Kudos to the IN for maintaining them for decades and giving them a new lease of life with BMos! Their hulls are superb,great top speed and full credit to the builders.Apart from BMos,isn't there a B-1 system too fitted on either beam replacing one of the 30mm gatlings?

There was a news item that Kuthar(?) and the VikA were first and second in the annual performance /innovation stakes of the IN. However,the foll. isn;t happy news at all.Quite shocking.This practice must be stamped out immediately otherwise the In will find it v.difficult to get recruits.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/m ... 261709.ece

Ministry of Defence looking into senior promotions in Navy
SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT NEW DELHI, DECEMBER 04, 2017 23:16 IST

Recent legal setbacks have led to a reckoning of ‘mysterious’ guidelines governing unexplained decisions

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) is looking into the criteria adopted for promotions in senior ranks of the Indian Navy in the wake of a series of recent adverse judgements and complaints.

Sources said the MoD’s move comes in the wake of at least two recent judgments of the Armed Forces Tribunal (AFT) severely indicting Naval promotion methodology.

In one of the cases, the AFT, while imposing a fine of ₹5 lakh on a retired Vice Admiral for nepotism, also upheld the contention that his actions scuttled the careers of almost the entire Russia-trained engineers of India’s secretive nuclear submarine wing.

The apex court last month dismissed the Navy’s Special Leave Petition in the case involving Commander S.S. Luthra, one of the nuclear submarine engineers trained in Russia, whose career was cut short because of alleged nepotism by the retired Admiral. The court also upheld the ₹5 lakh fine imposed on the retired Vice Admiral.

More legal challenges

Even as the MOD reviews the criteria adopted for promotions, one more senior Navy officer has approached the Supreme Court, claiming that illegal actions resulted in his otherwise sterling career being scuttled.

Commodore P.K. Banerjee’s petition, filed through Advocate Prashant Bhushan, is coming up in the court on December 8. Mr. Banerjee, who led India’s first anti-piracy operation as the captain of INS Tabar in 2008, has told the SC that “very severe adverse remarks” were inserted into his ACR (annual confidential report) without communicating them to him, that too at the end of the same anti-piracy operation that was lauded within the Navy and outside.

In the AFT judgement in Mr. Banerjee’s case, the principal bench of the Delhi AFT said “the Indian Navy should have a re-look at their appraisal/moderation system.” The AFT also expressed hope that the MoD will have a re-look at the Navy’s system.

Complaint to CJI

Meanwhile, a retired senior Naval officer has complained to the Chief Justice of India (CJI), accusing the Navy of fraud in denying him promotion and of obtaining a High Court order against him almost a decade ago.

Commodore V. Ravindranathan had lost his appeal for promotion to the next rank in the Delhi High Court in 2008.
Commodore Ravindranathan has written to Chief Justice Deepak Mishra about “grave legal impropriety which has resulted in gross miscarriage of Justice to me and which would have remained under wraps had I not obtained certified copies of the entire case record from the Hon’ble High Court [of] Delhi’s record section.”

On being alerted by another officer, the retired officer dug through the documents that revealed the mysterious guidelines that govern promotion to senior Naval ranks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Dec 2017 12:56

Singha wrote:very cluttered and complex topside design even by russian stds.

Decades back speaking with office serving on Indian Kashin class he mentioned of the good sea keeping qualities even in high sea state , The unique hull design is also adapted for Delhi Class.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Dec 2017 13:46

Good analysis.read it in full.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/ ... tical.html
India vs China at sea: Why subs are critical
Published Dec 4, 2017,

Today, the PLA-Navy has nine operational units among its three fleets and construction of Beijing’s diesel-powered submarines has consistently averaged 2.5 vessels annually, “and this is where China is... placing greater emphasis as it modernises its submarine fleet”. The point is simple: Submarines clandestinely control the sea and deny surface ships control of it. India should vote for the submarine first, and the carrier later. But both are necessary, and compliment each other.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Dec 2017 14:36

Trying to throw further light on our ATV progr.,here is another report of last yr.,with the key info. posted.

http://katehon.com/article/russian-indi ... ooperation

Akula-II and Arihant Agreement
In order to operationalize this decision, the CNS went to Russia. In July 1998, CNS met with his counterpart for a heart-to heart. CNS also spent a whole day with academicians at Leningrad Nuclear Submarine Design Bureau. CNS was taken on board the Akula-II at Severomorsk, base of Northern Fleet. Till then, as far as the Indian Navy is concerned, this boat only existed in magazines. CNS identified and approved the Akula-II boat. CNS was shown brief outlines of the performance of the boat, size of the reactor, reactor compartment, etc were all shown to the CNS. Russians had commissioned 70
*(should be 7 )
Akula-II nuclear submarines. The main outcome of this visit were-the acquisition of a series of Akula class/ Chakra types (six units) for induction into Indian Navy through lease; putting into fast track the ATV project cooperation on design of vessel and reactor with Russia. Even the US commentators had praised this boat. It was soon after this that nuclear submarine designs were received by Indian Navy and BARC. The CNS returned from the visit in July 1998 and briefed PM, NSA, LK Advani and Yashwant Sinha as well as President of India who was given a half hour presentation on the agreement reached with the Russians. Money would have to be sanctioned and a substantial green signal would be required to go ahead and it was given.

Acknowledging the work done by BARC and Indian Naval engineers, nontheless, the argument on the role of Russians in the design, fabrication and operationalization of the Indian nuclear submarines (the first two) remains an open question. On Russian role, CNS cites for reference the words of PM Manmohan Singh from the year 2009. Acknowledging the Russian cooperation, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had invited Russian Ambassador to Vizag for the ‘premature’ launching of the Arihant. Arihant was launched before it was commissioned. It was called a launch but it was not commissioned, it has still not been commissioned. According to the CNS, “the Russians were involved in the greatest detail, minutest detail, at least for the first two submarines”. (CNS) CNS also adds that the Russian were intricately involved in Mark series for the first boat and for the Mark I, II, III and Mark IV for the second submarine. Thus, there are two interpretations of the Russian role in the ATV project but the larger picture is that Indian deterrence capability emerges from this effort and even if the Russian component is assumed to be higher than officially stated, eventually the submarines will be almost totally indigenously manufactured.

*(there is no dispute on this aspect at all,we've mastered/building making an N-sub from scratch)

The Russians would not give the ballistic weapon, although they had assured that they would assist in validating the missiles. (CNS) The Arihant may have been initially designed for a capacity to have strike range of 750 km but there is no confirmation on the strike range that the ATV team had in mind. Much was dependent on the missile warheads that would be put together by BARC and the options in the initial stages would have been limited but projections would have been made for ballistic range. Proof of the cooperation is that there were payments, agreements/ contract for designs including reactor. Ashley Tellis is off the mark when he wrote that the ATV Project turned a corner in 2000 when it undertook a reorganization.The critical turn came in 1995 as for the decision to sanction Rs 5000 crores and the eventual operationalization of the decision was in 1998. Once the decision to lease the Akula class submarines was taken then the spillover went into the ATV cooperation as part of the naval strategic cooperation bundle.

The Moscow Heists
6 May 1982, reports came in that US had sucesssfully petitioned with Soviet Union to cancel contract on supplying cyogenic engines for ISRO. Designs and drawings were smuggled out of Soviet Union because Agni program was struggling. The impression was given in public domain that Soviet Union had conceded to US pressure on their deal with India. Someone from the Indian Embassy Moscow carried out a clandestine channel to transfer technical documentation on cryogenic engines to India. However, ISRO needed further and fuller support on the cryogenic systems.

At this point, Source Indian Embassy Moscow informs that “we had gone to the Americans and also the French. French quoted a massive amount and also wanted a sweetener which we gave them i.e. thermal power project. American pressure on France got them to back off and it was then we went to the Russians/Glavkosmos. Compared to the French, the cost was a fraction”. (Moscow) It has been written that “the Russian Parliament, however, was in no mood to let President Boris Yeltsin bail on India” implying that Yeltsin was not in favor of carrying forward the deal with India. (Simha R. K., 2013)

Source Indian Embassy Moscow states that the picture was a complicated one. He states that “it is true that Yeltsin wrote a Presidential decree against the Indo-Russian cryogenic deal but he also wrote another one supporting it. A Russian saying was ‘walking between rain drops’. With Russians, they sense sincerity and one must not try deception. If you go one step then they will go two steps. If you have trust then you can get away with anything. These were all Russian patriots who were not going to do anything against Russian interests. (Moscow) As part of the deal, Yeltsin had wanted India to join MTCR but India refused it. As to how history has recorded this event source Indian Embassy Moscow informs that “everything was given; design drawings, hot tests, cold tests done in Russia”. Source explains that the method of carrying out the ‘ops’ was fairly unique and done on case to case basis, “you had to do it fast, you had to constantly take risks”. (Moscow) Multiple consignments were clandestinely tasnported out of Russia and the risk for the operation was on India as any exposure of the episode would have severe international blowback. In India only a ‘very very small group’ knew what was hapenning behind the scenes. Publicly, the success was shown as a failure to create subterfuge and Clinton administration was convinced that they had suceeded in watering down the deal. The small group that knew about the back door status of the deal also engineered the discussion coming into Parliament where there was genuine outrage about the entire episode. Glavkosmos supposedly backed off and renegotiated the deal that was in place by January 1994. Under revised terms, India agreed to limit its use of transferred technologies for peaceful purposes or modernise it without Russian consent. (Harvey, 2001, p. 259) It was also claimed that under the new agreement, no blueprints were to be given to India. It was clear from the start that the cryogenic engines would go into the missile and ballistic program. Source informs that Head of Russian space agency also had to be decieved. Glavkosmos was under him.

India and Russia were re-discovering their relationship and the 1998 tests had drawn a sharp engative reaction from the Russians. Source Indian Embassy Moscow refers to meeting between NSA Brijesh Mishra and Russian Foreign Minister Yevgeny Primakov. Primakov was also heading Russian intelligence. According to source, “they were furious. Part of the reason was they were caught napping”. (Moscow) According to the source, “the reactor cores for the (Arihant and ATV) submarine project were bought from Russia. The agreement on Arihant was a one page document and the idea was to dovetail the technology cooperation into the long term indigenous program. We were not going to make the mistake of the first Chakra where people are trained and then left with nothing to do”. (Moscow) There were only four copies of the agreement. Only one copy is there in India. The source also informs that Russia had also agreed to provide maraging steel for the centrifuges. The strategic dialog was building up one nuclear deal at a time. The source was taken to the site where Russia was constructing new ballistic missile pens which is symbolic of the trust.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 05 Dec 2017 15:28

Self deleted

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Dec 2017 16:31

Singha wrote:very cluttered and complex topside design even by russian stds.

They are equally busy on the inside

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2017 16:51

maybe the russians held a pov that having individual antennas and control systems for every thing helped with repair , replacement, redundancy, damage control - making it simple and modular.
their newer ships follow the current model of sleek exterior and multi functional/compact systems.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Dec 2017 17:58

Singha wrote:maybe the russians held a pov that having individual antennas and control systems for every thing helped with repair , replacement, redundancy, damage control - making it simple and modular.
their newer ships follow the current model of sleek exterior and multi functional/compact systems.

Having a single mast with all antenna in there also means a single point of failure if the mast gets hit you can be assured most thing wont be working ,So there is merit in having different antenna for different role at different locations and height each to its capabilities role and compromises.

Single mast is good from Stealth Prepective and due to advancement in non-conventional/non-rotating antenna like AESA/PESA they have gained prominence in modern design.

Coming back to Kashin class you know this is a early 60's commisioned ship means major design work would have been completed in late 50's hence the host of antenna up there and as negi says heavily manned ( which has its own virtue over automation when you need more hand onboard if you get hit ) , All designs are tradeoff what you gain versus what you loose.

Indian Naval Capital Ships have good sea keeping qualities , long endurance and larger manpower compared to western counterpart has good reasons behind it.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Dec 2017 19:35

It is remarkable to see corruption of even the perspective of ex-armed forces personnel by the line being pushed here. The belief in foreign suppliers over domestic, neglecting the benefits of local MIC, is quite mind boggling. This completes the story of absolute corruption of Indian mind, body and thought.

Repugnant though it is, the overriding thought in my mind is - paradise lost!

So when should we all start learning Russian because they helped us with the ATV and in 1971? All hail Putin and dethrone Modi!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Dec 2017 19:43

Vivek K wrote:It is remarkable to see corruption of even the perspective of ex-armed forces personnel by the line being pushed here. The belief in foreign suppliers over domestic, neglecting the benefits of local MIC, is quite mind boggling. This completes the story of absolute corruption of Indian mind, body and thought.

Repugnant though it is, the overriding thought in my mind is - paradise lost!

So when should we all start learning Russian because they helped us with the ATV and in 1971? All hail Putin and dethrone Modi!

Kindly explain the bold part of your statement above.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2017 22:41

Philip, Thanks for the Vivek Prahaladan articles. Explains some of the gaps.

Am x-posting in the Deterrent thread.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 05 Dec 2017 22:47

Katehon is garbage.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Dec 2017 00:30

Philip wrote:Trying to throw further light on our ATV progr.,here is another report of last yr.,with the key info. posted.

http://katehon.com/article/russian-indi ... ooperation

good details by Vivek Prahladan , Thanks Philip

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Dec 2017 01:45

deejay wrote:
Vivek K wrote:It is remarkable to see corruption of even the perspective of ex-armed forces personnel by the line being pushed here. The belief in foreign suppliers over domestic, neglecting the benefits of local MIC, is quite mind boggling. This completes the story of absolute corruption of Indian mind, body and thought.

Repugnant though it is, the overriding thought in my mind is - paradise lost!

So when should we all start learning Russian because they helped us with the ATV and in 1971? All hail Putin and dethrone Modi!
Kindly explain the bold part of your statement above.

Please read it again. It is quite clear and I can offer no further explanation. The poster in question has free hand to lower Indian morale by attributing Indian achievements to ONE foreign nation. He has fought pitched battles with advocates of Indian MIC for decades now bad mouthing Indian efforts to locally produce effective weapon systems. Every post about an Indian accomplishment is followed by a post from the said poster deriding the accomplishment. Yet no action has been taken against him on BRF - for decades while those that have responded to the trolling and flame baiting have been at times banned.

Read what you will in my post. Every Indian admires and respects the men that make up that force. This poster is denigrating the nation and its accomplishments by singlemindedly pushing his agenda of pushing foreign products and bad mouthing EVERY Indian product and industry.

Read other comments about him
1. he extent of pimping for Russian military hardware that happens in BRF forums by a few is outrageous.

Almost every post, however small, on Dhruv, Tejas, Insead, submarines is followed by at least one post dissing the Indian stuff and two more posts plugging the Russian Maal! Mind-boggling and extremely sad!

Hope mods bring some antidote to this infection!
2. Long standing mole! Has been to many meetups in person, difficult to ban, plus he has selective hearing and thick skin (Trolling to perfection!)

How come that when there is quite a bit of concern about the tone and tenor of the posters writings that there is no action taken against him?