Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[Austin]

The Varyag was first offered to Indian Navy but I recollect reading in mid 90's it was rejected because we dint have port that would accomodate that huge carrier ( karwar facility wasnt there ) and they would have to berth out at see if it had to come to any closer to Mumbai WNC.

[Austin]

SpokespersonNavy‏Verified account @indiannavy Jul 23

#BridgesofFriendship Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) hands over 1st Advanced Offshore Patrol Vessel (AOPV) to Sri Lanka @makeinindia

[Indranil]

The abysmal record of the UPA 1&2 towards national defence and security,is sadly too well known.The "Saint",one Anthony by name,sat motionless in his spotless white dhoti like the sphinx in the DM's chair,passing nothing apart from occasional visits to the loo,springing into action only when his party Queen beckoned her finger.His PM was as useful as a geriatric stable hand ,asleep on his watch,allowing all manner of horse trading,horse stealing and horse sh*t to be dumped upon the nation.

The IN in particular was very heavily hit by the "Saint's" apathy and dereliction of duty ,with shortages of sub batteries-leading to cannibalisation to keep some of them operational ,spares for all manner of subs,warships and aircraft,weaponry,etc. leading to numerous accidents and the resignation in acute distraught and disgust of the Navy chief,who fell on his sword instead of sticking it into the "Saint's" backside!

CAG reports from time to time merely record the failures galore,but where is the accountability subsequent? "A fish rots from the head" and it is fundamentally the poltitcal boss/bosses who are responsible.AS far as defence was concerned,Snake-Oil Singh was only concerned on the N-deal,a huge gift to the US,where huge defence deals were part of the deal now openly being admitted by the Yanquis themselves.The sad truth is that for the greater part of Independent India's governance,the ruling elites have been more engaged in feathering their nests,conspiring with vested interests within and without India,to amass massive qtys. of ill-gotten wealth at the expense of the poor and poor taxpayers of a Billion+++ people.

One wishes that our PM quickly resolves the issue of a new defence minister as Jet LI frankly cannot manage two of the most important and demanding portfolios of the cabinet without enormous stress. At this particular time,with China behaving like barbarians, the status quo must remain. However,a dynamic figure is needed,one with an acute scientific mind ,preferably with a good knowledge of defence affairs,history ,etc. At the very least the appointment of a Dy. DM to reduce the burden on the DM/FM ,being delegated with responsibility and sharing the burden. The Min. for Def. Prod. could also be roped in for greater responsibility.The reason for adding weight to the MOD politically,is to bring babudom to heel.The nexus between babudom and the badly performing DPSUs must end and accountability for success or failure to be swiftly delivered.

Philip saar, could you please keep these political rants off these threads please? It serves no purpose and clutters up the thread.

[Khalsa]

Posting here because it is related to the Gorshkov.
Just think, we could have went after the Varyag when the chinis were aquiring the Kievs. It would have locked the PRC into an inferior design or maybe without the Varyag the PRC might never have launched a carrier program.

Hindsight is 20/20, I know. But still I wonder if we ever considered the Varyag and missed out on a strategic opportunity.

While what you say is interesting indeed I don't think it would have locked them down.
Has it locked us down in an inferior design programme ?

Navy and Naval design consultants are always looking around to get the best ideas from everywhere and Chinese would have too.
Infact they are.... their designs are getting iteratively better just like our destroyers have been.

So I don't think there was any opportunity lost.

However I would welcome members to post why we did not consider Varyag except for the size bit.

[KrishnaK]

Phillip will be crowing about this for a very long time

[chola]

Phillip will be crowing about this for a very long time

We all should be crowing about the skill and professionalism of the Vikramaditya's pilots and crew to make their equipment work no matter what!

[Rakesh]

Ultra Electronics wins Indian navy contract
https://www.digitallook.com/news/news-a ... 82972.html

[Rakesh]

CAG slams Indian Navy for delay in anti-submarine warfare corvettes projects
http://www.firstpost.com/india/cag-slam ... 41617.html

[Rakesh]

Why do they need to put such asinine titles?

Even Rambo can't salvage Indian Navy’s Sikorsky choppers, auditor lists problems
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017072410 ... -problems/

[Rakesh]

Navy lacks institutional framework to deal with safety: CAG
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 703454.cms

[Rakesh]

Ex-US Senator explains how US can help India deliver a devastating blow to China
http://www.dailyo.in/politics/china-pak ... 18518.html

We really do not want a naval war with China. It would be costly to defend a place like the Spratly Islands. But we can send China a devastating message by strengthening the Indian Navy. An Indian Navy that has the capability of delivering nuclear weapons would cause China great concern. In fact, if we actually outfitted the Indian Navy with nuclear weapons, China might back down from its antagonistic stance in the region.

[Philip]

OK,but one needs not to forget how a decade was lost which our enemies are capitalising upon today!

One never doubted the ability/capability of the Gorky/VikA and the 29Ks,when the IN is happy with both barring the 29K glitches being resolved. Some may not know that the US possesses 20+ MIG-29s,to train their pilots against. These however are legacy birds and not as capable as the upgraded 29UGs of the IAF and 29Ks of the IN. It is going to be v.interesting to see if the IAF takes a bite out of the offer of even more capable MIG-35s and whether there will be a naval variant of the same. Once IAC-1/Vikrant is ready and both carriers work-up together,their combined capabilities would be greater than their
individual strengths. If the amphibs can also join the air-capable group,with some fixed wing capability,it would add enormously to the IN's all round air capability in the IOR and beyond.

[SajeevJino]

Ultra Electronics wins Indian navy contract
https://www.digitallook.com/news/news-a ... 82972.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czHvJx9zoyE#t=78.442601

This what we going to buy, Sea Sentor systems, unknown numbers and unknown value

Any info why Navy not Choosen our desi Mareech

[vina]

However I would welcome members to post why we did not consider Varyag except for the size bit.

The size is a red herring. Varyag /Kuznetsov is just 20 metres longer than the Kiev/Adm Gorshkov and it is next to nothing to extend a quay /wharf by 20m. The draft is in fact 0.2m MORE for the Kiev/Adm Gorshkov than the Varyag/Kuzentsov.

So lets put that piece of fiction writing to rest.

[chola]

OK,but one needs not to forget how a decade was lost which our enemies are capitalising upon today!

One never doubted the ability/capability of the Gorky/VikA and the 29Ks,when the IN is happy with both barring the 29K glitches being resolved.
Some may not know that the US possesses 20+ MIG-29s,to train their pilots against. These however are legacy birds and not as capable as the upgraded 29UGs of the IAF and 29Ks of the IN. It is going to be v.interesting to see if the IAF takes a bite out of the offer of even more capable MIG-35s and whether there will be a naval variant of the same. Once IAC-1/Vikrant is ready and both carriers work-up together,their combined capabilities would be greater than their
individual strengths. If the amphibs can also join the air-capable group,with some fixed wing capability,it would add enormously to the IN's all round air capability in the IOR and beyond.

Oh please, Filipov. If the IN were pleased with MiG-29K they would not put out a tender for 57 new naval fighters while their Fulcrums are all but brand new.

And yes, the Navy is happy with the cheap chini bricks that the Russkie used in the Gorshkov that caused the boiler to break down in her maiden trip.

Again, my admiration for the men and women of Vikramaditya who can make do with flying colors whatever their government gives them.

Those shots from Malabar do look good!

[chola]

However I would welcome members to post why we did not consider Varyag except for the size bit.

The size is a red herring. Varyag /Kuznetsov is just 20 metres longer than the Kiev/Adm Gorshkov and it is next to nothing to extend a quay /wharf by 20m. The draft is in fact 0.2m MORE for the Kiev/Adm Gorshkov than the Varyag/Kuzentsov.

So lets put that piece of fiction writing to rest.

Sigh. Still feel that we could have killed several big birds with this stone.

For a russkie STOBAR design, the Varyag is far closer to a real aircraft carrier than the Gorshkov with the lifts in the right places, proper clearance for the angled deck and the island in the right place.

We could have gotten a carrier that didn't limit us to the MiG-29K. (Seeing that we are building the MKI, we might have been able to restart the SU-33 line in Bharat.)

The chini Type 001A is a near exact copy of the Varyag so I think we can safely say the PRC's carrier program is pretty much dependent on learning from this ship. Without it, they would have had to rebuild the Kiev or Minsk which would lock at least their first several carriers into that horrible design. And probably lock them into the Fulcrum as their carrier aircraft.

Or they might never have bothered with a carrier program at all since they left both the Minsk and Kiev as floating theme parks even though their shipbuilding industry look far more advance than Sevmash who did the Gorshkov conversion.

[Manish_Sharma]

[

Oh please, Filipov. If the IN were pleased with MiG-29K they would not put out a tender for 57 new naval fighters while their Fulcrums are all but brand new.

But maybe it's not 29k but IN that's unable to maintain them properly. See above same problems with mighty American brand Sikorsky, cag says not even rambo can save them. CAG is pointing out Navy's shortcomings in maintenance.

IAF seems to have sorted out mig 29 troubles well.

[vina]

IAF seems to have sorted out mig 29 troubles well.

. With the tortured history of horror stories there, yeah "sorted out" indeed.

[Manish_P]

In fact, if we actually outfitted the Indian Navy with nuclear weapons, China might back down from its antagonistic stance in the region.

Fine... will you be giving us the equipment for free.. and oh while you are at it please stop bankrolling the western colony of the chinese

[Manish_Sharma]

Philip Sir had put up a link showing even half of f18 USN fleet is suffering from unavailability.

[chola]

[

Oh please, Filipov. If the IN were pleased with MiG-29K they would not put out a tender for 57 new naval fighters while their Fulcrums are all but brand new.

But maybe it's not 29k but IN that's unable to maintain them properly. See above same problems with mighty American brand Sikorsky, cag says not even rambo can save them. CAG is pointing out Navy's shortcomings in maintenance.

IAF seems to have sorted out mig 29 troubles well.

Read the stories recently posted here on the 29K needing to be ruggedize for carrier operations. Every time the thing lands, the plane needs to be "reset."

Read the story below. It pretty much damns the plane for not being properly designed for a carrier role.

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indian-nav ... 03125.html

So it has nothing to do with the IN's ability to maintain it. Of course, if you don't fly it off a carrier as much and use it more on land then maintenance could conceivably be better . . .

[Philip]

The tender for the "57" according to the CNS was for aircraft expected way into the next decade to fly off the 3rd carrier,now shelved.They were not meant to replace the 29Ks aboard the VikA and to be used aboard IAC-1.The manner in which they showed their class during Malabar,etc. speaks for itself.Those B*tching about the 29Ks,are like the anti-Ru brigade in the US who see nothing good ever coming out from Russia. They can't stomach the fact that the cutting edge tech/systems that we possess like MKIs,BMos,Akula,29s,SMERCH,etc. come from Russia.They would rather have us operate ancient Yanqui birds instead.

No one is denying that with some systems there have been support problems,glitches,etc,but genuine efforts are on to resolve all issues. It is only the blinkered who can't see progress made. The 29K proved itself against the SH and comes in at half the price too!

[Bala Vignesh]

However I would welcome members to post why we did not consider Varyag except for the size bit.

The size is a red herring. Varyag /Kuznetsov is just 20 metres longer than the Kiev/Adm Gorshkov and it is next to nothing to extend a quay /wharf by 20m. The draft is in fact 0.2m MORE for the Kiev/Adm Gorshkov than the Varyag/Kuzentsov.

So lets put that piece of fiction writing to rest.

My guess is that the purchase of the Kiev class was part of larger subterfuge!! The main target was Varyag and to get it cheaply they bought the other two ships to set up the ruse of a casino. I very strongly believe that if Varyag deal had not come through, PLAN might have very simply gone ahead with modification to the Kiev's on hand.
As to why we didn't get it, I blame it simply on lack of strategic vision on part of the Govt or the bean counters who might have thought the Gorshkov was a better deal at the price it was initially offered.

[Austin]

In the entire 90's we didnt had money to purchase any thing of significant value for armed forces , what ever we had was used to procure what was absolutely needed , most big procurement was only initiated after mid 2000

[Viv S]

But maybe it's not 29k but IN that's unable to maintain them properly. See above same problems with mighty American brand Sikorsky, cag says not even rambo can save them. CAG is pointing out Navy's shortcomings in maintenance.

It was Sputnik not the CAG that made the 'Rambo' comment.

The six vintage Sea Kings were acquired along with the Jalashwa purely as a stop-gap to the Naval Dhruv. The aircraft had already expended 15,000 hrs of their 17,000 hr airframe life. The Navy, expecting to decommission them by 2017, discontinued contractor services in 2011 and all spares purchases in 2013. Very different case from the MiG-29Ks, the majority of which are still brand new aircraft but with the type having been in service long enough that most teething issues should have been worked out.

[chola]

In the entire 90's we didnt had money to purchase any thing of significant value for armed forces , what ever we had was used to procure what was absolutely needed , most big procurement was only initiated after mid 2000

It would have cost us all of $20 million

Refurbishing the thing would cost hundreds of millions more but it couldn't be any more than the Gorshkov conversion and probably far less since you didn't have to change the physical dimensions of the Varyag.

And we would have kept that skill in our house instead being strong-armed into using Sevmash because of the "free" offer.

The more I look into this. The more melancholy I get.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese ... r_Liaoning

Ukraine approached China, India, and Russia as potential buyers.[1] China sent a high-level delegation in 1992, which reported that the ship was in good condition and recommended a purchase. However, the Chinese government declined to purchase the ship because of the international diplomatic situation at the time.[13] Unable to find a buyer, Ukraine left the ship to deteriorate in the elements.[14]

In 1998, the rusting hulk was sold at auction for $20 million to Agencia Turistica E Diversoes Chong Lot Limitada, a company from Macau. Chong Lot proposed to tow Varyag to Macau, where the ship would be converted into a $200 million floating hotel and casino.[15]

[sum]

See above same problems with mighty American brand Sikorsky, cag says not even rambo can save them. CAG is pointing out Navy's shortcomings in maintenance.

Sir, your thoughts were fine and agreeable but are you really comparing a "brand new"( 4-5 years old) Mig-29K platform with a 2-3 decade old Sikrosky platform to make a point about maintanance?

[Austin]

In the entire 90's we didnt had money to purchase any thing of significant value for armed forces , what ever we had was used to procure what was absolutely needed , most big procurement was only initiated after mid 2000

It would have cost us all of $20 million

Refurbishing the thing would cost hundreds of millions more but it couldn't be any more than the Gorshkov conversion and probably far less since you didn't have to change the physical dimensions of the Varyag.

And we would have kept that skill in our house instead being strong-armed into using Sevmash because of the "free" offer.

The more I look into this. The more melancholy I get.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese ... r_Liaoning

Ukraine approached China, India, and Russia as potential buyers.[1] China sent a high-level delegation in 1992, which reported that the ship was in good condition and recommended a purchase. However, the Chinese government declined to purchase the ship because of the international diplomatic situation at the time.[13] Unable to find a buyer, Ukraine left the ship to deteriorate in the elements.[14]

In 1998, the rusting hulk was sold at auction for $20 million to Agencia Turistica E Diversoes Chong Lot Limitada, a company from Macau. Chong Lot proposed to tow Varyag to Macau, where the ship would be converted into a $200 million floating hotel and casino.[15]

The point is in 90's we didnt have the money to buy any thing other than what MOD thought was absolutely necessary .....Even if it costed 1 million buying AC was not a priority with MOD.

If you recollect the fact that during in Kargil War and in 2001 Parliament Attack our sole aircraft carrier INS Viraat was in Dry Docks doing refits so Navy made stop gap arrangement on Merchant and Naval Ships to fly the SHAR.

In the hind sight every thing looks good but back then things were not so great for armed forces who post 1999 sanction even had to canabalise spare from Sea King and use it to make few good ones fly.

We cant compare with Chinese then and say we should have done that if chinese did xyz , Much like in 2035 some would argue why didnt the IN start build 3 AC in 2020 when Chinese have 5 of them today but we know now IN wont build any aircraft carrier for next 15 years and wont get INS Vikrant any time before 2023

Now IN can facny all sort of things today like buy 57 aircraft or buy 120 helicopters from abroad or build xyz but only if Wishes were Horses..........

[Viv S]

The tender for the "57" according to the CNS was for aircraft expected way into the next decade to fly off the 3rd carrier,now shelved.They were not meant to replace the 29Ks aboard the VikA and to be used aboard IAC-1.The manner in which they showed their class during Malabar,etc. speaks for itself.

No the RFI was released for fighters for the existing carriers to serve as a complement to the existing fleet. Not for the IAC-2.

45 MiG-29Ks would have been just about sufficient for one carrier if it were demonstrating decent rates of operational availability. Just for reference, French Naval Aviation retains 45 Rafale-Ms for its one 42,000 ton carrier. An second batch of fighters for the IN was always on the cards, especially in the absence of the N-Tejas.

The performance of the MiG-29K at Malabar doesn't speak for much as far as availability is concerned. The IAF, for example, was able to fly six Su-30s to Nevada and have them up and running for two weeks at Red Flag but that didn't undo the very real problems with the reliability of its AL-31s or the (now improved) serviceability, figures for both being available in CAG reports.

[Austin]

No the RFI was released for fighters for the existing carriers to serve as a complement to the existing fleet. Not for the IAC-2.

INS Vikrant is just designed to fly the Mig-29K and N-Tejas nothing else , This has been confirmed in many interviews given by D&D and IN.

If they are planing to buy 57 Aircraft which is just a RFI long way from RFP and much longer from any selection or purchase then it would be for the new aircraft carrier only.

Most likely the 57 aircraft carrier RFI will go the 16 Helicopter Purchase way ....there is no money there to buy these

[Viv S]

INS Vikrant is just designed to fly the Mig-29K and N-Tejas nothing else , This has been confirmed in many interviews given by D&D and IN.

Then the Vikrant will either be modified, or as is more likely, the contract for the 57 fighters will be awarded to MiG/UAC.

If they are planing to buy 57 Aircraft which is just a RFI long way from RFP and much longer from any selection or purchase then it would be for the new aircraft carrier only.

The RFP isn't nearly as far off as the IAC-2. If ordered by 2020, the IAC will enter service no earlier than 2035, thus making any current selection redundant - the Rafale, Super Hornet & MiG-29K will all be long out-of-production by then with the F-35 almost out-of-production (like the F-16 today).

Most likely the 57 aircraft carrier RFI will go the 16 Helicopter Purchase way ....there is no money there to buy these

The helicopter purchase has been clubbed with a larger requirement, its not been cancelled. Similarly, there remains an outstanding requirement for more naval fighters.

[Austin]

If the Navy can afford to buy 57 Combat Aircraft when they couldnt get passed smaller program via MOD with far less budget then I have a moon to sell.

Neither the Vikrant or IAC wont carry more than 18-20 AC even during best of times , The rest of complement will be ASW Choppers , AEW system and SAR Choppers , The Helicopter numbers will far outclass the fighter component on our Aircraft carrier , The Viraat too never carried more than 12-14 SHAR most of the time it sailed but the fleet of Helicopter was far larger. Indian AC emphasis Fleet Air Defence as much as it does for ASW duties they are primary threat for CBG.

[Singha]

Livefist‏Verified account @livefist 5h5 hours ago

Big day. India's 1st ever warships built by private sector launched. 2 Naval Offshore Patrol Vessels launched by Reliance Defence today.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFkXHwIUQAAD3F7.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFkuCDEUMAAPUrH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFkuBLWV0AAGDKW.jpg

[tsarkar]

Received on Whatsapp, pictures of Shachi & Shruti, NOPV constructed by Pipavav/Reliance being launched

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFk07ymUQAAbcts.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFk08reUwAUcf01.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksA34U0AAwHCm.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksCGyUwAIF5jm.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksDHTU0AAn_jB.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksEGlUIAYt-pb.jpg

Please note once the ship is ready, it will be delivered and undergo exploitation for 6-9 months before it is commissioned. Only after commissioning it will have the INS prefix.

[Singha]

i wonder if we could do a caspian sea flotilla thing on them and pack in say 4 brahmos ahead of the hangar

[tsarkar]

^^ We sure can, but ample BrahMos on other platforms, and this is more to deter Somali Pirates / Pakistani Jehadis.

Relatively expensive to send gas guzzling destroyers and frigates on Anti Piracy Patrols. The OPVs will go on such patrols while major warships practice for war.

The 2 x RBU-6000 installation on Type 28 can be replaced with a 8 cell BrahMos and there is provision for 2 x Barak-1 VLS at hanger. If these systems are added, we can get a mini-frigate / multi-purpose corvette adequate for Pakistan.

[Bala Vignesh]

BrahMos may be overkill on these platforms. Instead we can probably put a quad mounting of the Kh-35s for limited land attack/anti-ship capabilities.

[Karthik S]

^^ We sure can, but ample BrahMos on other platforms, and this is more to deter Somali Pirates / Pakistani Jehadis.

Relatively expensive to send gas guzzling destroyers and frigates on Anti Piracy Patrols. The OPVs will go on such patrols while major warships practice for war.

The 2 x RBU-6000 installation on Type 28 can be replaced with a 8 cell BrahMos and there is provision for 2 x Barak-1 VLS at hanger. If these systems are added, we can get a mini-frigate / multi-purpose corvette adequate for Pakistan.

Tsarkar ji, I always wondered, why our navy's preference for RBU. None of western ships have them. If you look at Kolkata class, it takes huge amount of space which could otherwise have been used for BrahMos or Barak 8.

[Singha]

Western ships in colonial wars face no sub threat
Vs cheen or russia they can rely on own subs and asw planes to repel threats

We have no such resources and subs are number one threat both tspn and plan

[Aditya G]

Excellent news - after a frenzy of inductions till 2015, we have seen less action for the surface navy in recent times.

- Apart from some FPVs, this is a rare occassion where 2 full ships have been launched on the same day. I credit this to modular construction at Pipavav.

- The ships are in fairly advanced state of construction during launch, compared to PSU ship yards.

- Apart from a smaller hangar, the design is better than Saryu class thanks to more deck space. The aft section reminds me a lot of the Talwar class... there are 2 platforms at either side where weapons or sensors could be mounted. No such scope in Saryu.

- The 76mm gun has a different fairing;



it looks very similar to a strales system;

Received on Whatsapp, pictures of Shachi & Shruti, NOPV constructed by Pipavav/Reliance being launched

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFk07ymUQAAbcts.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFk08reUwAUcf01.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksA34U0AAwHCm.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksCGyUwAIF5jm.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksDHTU0AAn_jB.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFksEGlUIAYt-pb.jpg

Please note once the ship is ready, it will be delivered and undergo exploitation for 6-9 months before it is commissioned. Only after commissioning it will have the INS prefix.