Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 02 Mar 2018 08:24

What is it the imported frigates can do that a plain Shivalik cannot do. These ships don't have phased array radar. Dont even know if they have vls Sam. And I am supposed to celebrate this import.

If they issue was shipyard capacity, the yard could have built the p 17 which being Indian could be updated in mlu without any issues. But we are stuck with Russian whims and tantrums for ship's with limited utility.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Mar 2018 09:20

John wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ The P17A is insanely expensive for a frigate too but that is another story and the money spent is on building our own capacity.

The Talwars are actually comparable to — and smaller than — our Shivalik class which cost $350M per ship. So I hope it is for other benefits as well. Otherwise, we are spending more than twice as much on a firangi platform that is less capable than its domestic equivalent.

That's incorrect Shivalik cost around 600 mill USD (2400 crores 40-45 USD conversion at that time) in 2010. But Imo we should have continued building them but navy was hesitant due to price tag and wanted a better bang for buck and went with P17a. If shivalik were built now with Barak-8 and Brahmos they would around 800 million likely little more than P-15b due to design improvements and western turbines.

Speed of induction is the key here. Two of these ships are almost in ready condition iirc. So very quick boost to naval power. And yes, geopolitical motives as well.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 02 Mar 2018 09:40

Pratyush wrote:What is it the imported frigates can do that a plain Shivalik cannot do. These ships don't have phased array radar. Dont even know if they have vls Sam. And I am supposed to celebrate this import.

If they issue was shipyard capacity, the yard could have built the p 17 which being Indian could be updated in mlu without any issues. But we are stuck with Russian whims and tantrums for ship's with limited utility.

Likely geopolitical reason I believe there is need to politically sign a deal to appease Russians and do it under made in India banner to appeal locally. Even though license building this design which is dated and limited is bit of a joke. These vessels will carry vl-shtil.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Mar 2018 10:56

The Talwars regularly won naval trophies for best warships.Their size and capability are ideal for fleet multi-role workhorses.They will carry BMos,SAMs,either Shtil or B-8,gatlings,anti-sub torpedoes,MBUs,plus an ASW/AEW helo,main gun and effective sensors for the same.They are not outdated by any means.Newer more mdoern sensors and eqpt. are used with every batch.The P-17s are oriented more heavily towards ASW tasking.with 2 Sea King sized helos,etc. But the SSMs remain the same number as Talwars. Having 10 or more in the fleet makes it easier to keep more available with commonality of spares,eqpt.,weaponry,etc. not to mention training and manning of the same type.Even the P-28s,P-15s and P-17/17As will number at least 10 in the future,which will benefit the IN all round. The rapid induction of the 4 FFgs will augment the IN's surface fleet at a time when the Chinese are outstripping us numerically in naval expansion of almost every type of warship and sub.

However,as said before,we require another smaller corvette/light frigate class of not more than 2500t,with similar all-round eqpt.,but with a lighter BPDMS/anti-missile system instead of Shtil or B-8.Like the Buyan corvettes just around 1000t,the vessels could carry Kalibir type LR SSMs or BMos.,but also possess a TAS and ASW helo with hangar,ASW TTs,etc.There are some interesting designs from Europe and Ru,which could serve as a guide.12+ of such corvettes along with the 16 shallow-water/inshore ASW vessels of around 750+ t,will hugely increase the anti-sub capability of the IN especially in the IOR littorals.These light frigates/corvettes could cost one-third to half that of a Talwar.in fact it could be less.Our OPVs of around 2000t cost around just $60M with just another 10% if SSMs are added.So a well-equipped and armed light frigate/corvette of around the same tonnage could be built at home for around $100-150M. The key is to get a good design.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 02 Mar 2018 11:16

John wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ The P17A is insanely expensive for a frigate too but that is another story and the money spent is on building our own capacity.

The Talwars are actually comparable to — and smaller than — our Shivalik class which cost $350M per ship. So I hope it is for other benefits as well. Otherwise, we are spending more than twice as much on a firangi platform that is less capable than its domestic equivalent.

That's incorrect Shivalik cost around 600 mill USD (2400 crores 40-45 USD conversion at that time) in 2010. But Imo we should have continued building them but navy was hesitant due to price tag and wanted a better bang for buck and went with P17a. If shivalik were built now with Barak-8 and Brahmos they would around 800 million likely little more than P-15b due to design improvements and western turbines.

Looking at the price of the new Talwars, it would have still made more sense to build more Shivalik's instead. Ever since news of more Talwars started making the rounds I've been wondering why we didn't go this route. P-17A can take its own sweet time to come.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Mar 2018 13:26

^Because it is quite likely that new build Shivaliks would also take their own sweet time to come?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RKumar » 02 Mar 2018 15:25

It's again India obliging to Russia - otherwise, 2 ships would rust in Russia and costs would go down the drain. This way shipyard and MoD, will get dollars. Consider it, India returning yet another favor for historical unconditional Russian support.

For us, it's not money waste but investment as we operate similar ships. Helping a friend in need with mutual benefits - Russia gain more than India, but that's friends are for - right?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 02 Mar 2018 15:53

The price must be a facade for the cost of our nuke sub parts from Russia. If we pay separately for the nuke sub components, it would become obvious what the Russians are providing.

May be it is a coincidence that we are ordering 4 talwars ....and building 4 more SSBN :D

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Mar 2018 16:02

nachiket wrote:
John wrote:That's incorrect Shivalik cost around 600 mill USD (2400 crores 40-45 USD conversion at that time) in 2010. But Imo we should have continued building them but navy was hesitant due to price tag and wanted a better bang for buck and went with P17a. If shivalik were built now with Barak-8 and Brahmos they would around 800 million likely little more than P-15b due to design improvements and western turbines.

Looking at the price of the new Talwars, it would have still made more sense to build more Shivalik's instead. Ever since news of more Talwars started making the rounds I've been wondering why we didn't go this route. P-17A can take its own sweet time to come.


The whole problem is this divorce between the long term perspective plan, 5 year defence plan and annual budget. As Vidurji has said many times, even CCS clearance means nothing because fund actually come from annaul budget which bears 0 relation to 5 year defence plan and much less to long term perspective plan.

The obvious solution was to build 6-9 Shivaliks at one go (the long term perspective plan caters for this) but 5 year plan approval was for only 3. Idea being, that its a new class so test it first and then increase as P17A - this is driven by the many checks in the system (CAG, Ministry etc) so its a safer option. But P17A had to go through full process - DAC approvals for P17A came way back in 2011 I think and CCS approval came a couple of years later if memory serves right. But it meant nothing because annual budget did not allocate. They expired and had to be done again.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Mar 2018 16:10

the smaller multi-role FFG design could use the hull of the P28 but omit the specialized high cost ASW gear and instead install just a small 16 pack of SRSAM , a few urans , self defence measures, a good gun like oto 76mm and good SIGINT capability and ability to house and keep marcos minisub/chariot/boat....a good sized helicopter hanger for a single SH70

cheen has been building dozens of the type54 and smaller ships ... to flood any given area with "boots on ground"

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Mar 2018 16:16

Said before ad nauseum,extra Talwars were being mooted by the IN around 5 years ago! It takes so long for a weapon system to be chosen,then approved through the 11 desk babudom,then signed and sealed before the OEM begins work.it was fortuitous for us that the UKR spat happened and two FFGs meant for the RuN are coming our way.The IN has been judiciously buying some specialised vessels from abroad,like fleet tankers,sub rescue vessels-just handed over,while the missile tracking vessel being built in a cloud of secrecy at HSL is being done entirely at home.Smaller vessels like OPVs,CG fast interceptors,etc. have been delivered by pvt. yards.In a fe w years time,we should have around 10 Delhi//P-15/A/Bs,10 P-17/As,10 P-28/As and 10 Talwars1/2/3.That's approx 40 frontline warships along with the 3 B class FFGs,8 Khukri/Koras and 16 inshore ASW corvettes. If we build another 10-12 light frigates/corvettes as mentioned in earlier posts,we should have around 50-60 combat vessels from ocean-going corvettes to large destroyers.That would make up approx 1/3rd of the fleet of the 200 ship goal. A trio of large cruisers to accompany the carriers and amphibs,possibly upto 5,with a large load of SAMs and LR SSMs in particular, accompanied by the desired fleet of 3-4 doz. subs,would make for a very strong fleet quite a blt to dominate the IOR and flex its muscles in the ICS as well. LR maritime strike Backkfires would be the cherry on the top!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 02 Mar 2018 16:25

Philip wrote:The Talwars regularly won naval trophies for best warships.

The trophies are awarded based on crew proficiency and not hardware.

Just like in an examination, a student is scored on his knowledge and not what pen he uses to write his answers

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Mar 2018 18:14

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/story/?id=431
Russian Project 11356 Class
USNI news and Russian media has reported that India and Russia have agreed to a contract for the acquisition of three frigates of Russian Project 11356 class (western classification is Admiral Grigorovich class frigate) which was originally meant for the Russian Black Sea Fleet. Project 11356 class has been by designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau and reported to be the improved models of the Talwar class export frigates. The first ship of the class, Admiral Grigorovich, had joined the Russian Navy’s Black Sea Sevastopol base in early March and was the first new ship to enter the fleet since the end of Cold War. This appears to confirm that the Russian Navy has decided to abandon plans to add six to nine Project 11356 class frigates out of which three are already inducted/being inducted into the Black Sea Fleet. The main reason appears for Russia to export these frigates to India is that these ships were designed to have propulsion system M90FR gas turbines which were designed and built by Zorya-Mashproekt in Ukraine, who have been the main suppliers of marine engines to Russia since the Soviet days. All cooperation and contracts have been cancelled between Russia and Ukraine due to break down of relations between them. Russia had already acquired the first three engines of Ukraine origin. Russia has awarded a contract to its aero engine manufacturer NPO Saturn but it is unlikely that the engines will be ready before 2019. India has a choice of directly acquiring the engines from Ukraine and fit them in India. At present two ships are ready less the propulsion system and the third one is under construction.

INS Trikand stealth frigate
India is also considering transporting the hulls of the frigates from the Yantar Shipyards in Kaliningrad Oblast to India for their completion and the installation of engines. The contract also includes 12 sets of spares, tools and accessories. Russians have named the ships Admiral Butakov, Admiral Istomin and Admiral Kornilov, but the Indian Navy will give them Indian names. The ships are 4,000-tonne multi-mission frigates. India has a choice of using Russian sensors and weapons or select them as per the operational requirement and cost factors. The frigates are armed with the Russian Kalibir NK long-range land attack cruise missile apart from other weapons. This missile was first used in 2015 from Russian Navy ships in the Caspian Sea to strike targets in Syria. It will also be armed with Indian BrahMos cruise missiles.

This contract is a win-win situation for India and Russia. Russia can reallocate the funds saved and generated from sale for construction of other ships to fulfill their plans to expand Russian Navy to its old glory by 2030. India can fast forward the acquisition of frigates planned under Project 17A. It will also provide a learning curve for India’s shipyards and indirectly contribute to ‘Make in India’ vision of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 02 Mar 2018 18:21

Philip wrote:The Talwars regularly won naval trophies for best warships.Their size and capability are ideal for fleet multi-role workhorses.They will carry BMos,SAMs,either Shtil or B-8,gatlings,anti-sub torpedoes,MBUs,plus an ASW/AEW helo,main gun and effective sensors for the same.They are not outdated by any means.Newer more mdoern sensors and eqpt. are used with every batch.The P-17s are oriented more heavily towards ASW tasking.with 2 Sea King sized helos,etc. .



Problem with Talwar is VL-Shtil is bit outdated because Orekh FCR has far too many limitations and it limits the overall system to around 30 Km range and only 2 target can be engage in one area (4 all together) during terminal phase. There is active guided Shtil but these vessels won't have it Barak-8 are far superior in range and dealing with saturation attacks.

Fregat is planar array radar it gets the job done but its design is cold war era design MF-Star and EL/M-2238 (fitted as secondary radar on Shivalik) are superior to it in terms of range and target tracking capability. If Barak-8 was fitted on 2nd batch shivalik we could removed Fregat and replaced it with 2238 (MF-Star might require redesign) as main radar.

Also Talwar design for mast is bit of relic (larger radar cross section and more cluttered design), navy is already designed fully enclosed composite masts so going back to it big step back.

And building 2 more vessels locally is not as straight forward as it seems Russians know have to adapt this design to be built here. So blueprints, parts and steel have to be indigenized.

There is no submarine funding conspiracy with this deal, it is straight up life line for Putin who desperately need $$ for all new weapons systems he advertised couple days ago.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Mar 2018 18:30

An analysis of the naval budget.In the wake of the staggering bank scandals to the tune of billions of $$$,there is going to be little money available for any service before the next elections. Banks will require "refloating",to save them from floundering after taking such massive hits from the scamsters,which simply means printing more money,"quantitative easing" as western bankers cal it,or what I call "latrine economics"! To achieve this the poor taxpayer and simple depositor is going to be hardest hit.Bank rates have already been raised,loans to be higher,etc.,etc. large supplies of sellotape,fevicol,araldite,twine and rope rivets,hammers and welding kits will be needed to keep seaworthy legacy assets especially helos,MCM vessels,and subs.

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/story/?id ... on-Stumped
Analysis of Navy’s Capital Budget

The total capital budget for modernisation (aircraft and aero-engines; heavy and medium vehicles; other equipment and naval fleet) comes to 17,083.00 crore. Naval Dockyards which repair the naval ships have a separate budget of 2,000 crore. The modernisation allocation is required for the following projects:

Indigenous Aircraft Carrier Programme. Construction of prestigious 37,500 tons Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC-1) is on track and is likely to be commissioned by 2020. IAC-2 is also in the pipeline and named INS Vishal.

Project 17A. This project is a follow up of Project 17 and comprises of seven stealth frigates with advanced features and technology upgrades. The construction load will be shared between the Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) for four ships and the Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE) Limited for three ships.

Project 15B. The Government has also approved an additional four stealth ships of the Guided Missile Destroyer class, designated as Project 15B and to be constructed at MDL. The total cost is about 30000 crore (about $4.7billion).

Mine Countermeasures Vessel. The Defence Acquisition Committee had cleared nomination of GSL for construction of 12 MCMV vessels in February 2015 in collaboration with South Korea’s Kangnam Corporation at a cost of about $5billion. During January 8, 2018, the Indian Government cancelled the tender due to differences in pricing and mode of transfer of technology. It is understood that the acquisition process will start again. Indian Navy needs 24 of these vessels.

Amphibious Capability. With the induction of the Landing Platform Dock (LPD) Jalashwa, IN has considerably augmented its amphibious capability. Together with the five Landing Ship Tanks (Large), a sealift capability for over 3500 troops and a squadron of armour now exists. To augment its amphibious lift capability, Navy plans to acquire larger amphibious ships of the LPD type. The case for four Multi-Role Landing Platform Docks is being progressed with two private shipyards - M/s L&T and M/s Reliance Naval and Engineering Ltd.

Fleet Tanker. During 2008 a fleet tanker was ordered from Italian Shipbuilder Fincanterri which had a follow-on option of up to three tankers. IN has now exercised this option for one follow on ship.

Scorpene Project 75. The first project under the perspective plan was Project 75, Scorpene for indigenous construction of six conventional stealth submarines under transfer of technology arrangements with DCNS (now Naval Group), France. The first submarine INS Kalvari has been commissioned during December 2017 by Narendra Modi on December 14, 2017. As per available reports the delivery of the remaining five boats are expected by 2021.

Project 75 (India). Project 75 (India) is a sequel to Scorpene Project 75 to boost the ethos of self-reliance through indigenisation practiced by Indian Navy which was lying dormant for some time. The Government has recently promulgated Global RFI to six leading shipbuilder. The submarines are to be built at an estimated 70,000 crore ($10.9 billion) in collaboration with an Indian shipyard.

Nuclear Submarines. India needs at least six nuclear powered attack submarines (SSN) and at least four nuclear powered submarines with nuclear-tipped missiles (SSBN) for strategic deterrence. In February 2015, Government of India approved the construction of six nuclear-powered SSNs.

Naval Aircrafts and Helicopters

Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighters (MRCBF). Considering the doubtful suitability of Tejas for MRCBF, the Navy has begun a search for a MRCBF for IAC-1 and its follow up carrier.

Amphibious aircraft. The Navy had identified Japanese amphibious aircraft ShinMaywa US-2 and wanted to procure 12 multi-role aircraft under a government to government deal between 2017 and 2022 however there has not been any progress.

Helicopters. Acceptance of Necessity for the procurement of 111 NUH worth 21,738 crore ($3.2 billion) has been recently accorded by the Defence Acquisition Council under the Strategic Partnership model to give a major boost to indigenous defence manufacturing capabilities in the country.

[b]With about 80 per cent of the capital allocation going for past commitments, it is clear that in spite of the Government having the will, there is a dearth of funds for modernisation[/b]

Naval Multi-Role Helicopters. Indian Navy plans to acquire 123 Naval Multi-Role Helicopters (NMRH) to be used as ship borne flights of two helicopters each for its frontline destroyers and frigates to form integral air for critical operations out at sea. India had signed an agreement with Russia to build Kamov 226 light utility helicopters under the government’s ‘Make in India’ mission. HAL has already started the construction of a separate helicopter manufacturing plant near Tumakuru, around 70 km from Bengaluru. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had unveiled a plaque for the foundation stone on January 3, 2016. This facility will be utilized for the manufacture of all defence utility helicopters.

Naval UAVs. Indian Navy is keen to buy tactical UAVs, high-altitude long-endurance (HALE) UAVs, vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) UAVs, and medium-altitude, longendurance (MALE) UAVs to augment the surveillance of the long coast line of India and in the Indian Ocean region.

Current status of construction in Indian Ship yards. There are about 34 ships under construction in the Indian shipyards and all need funds for construction. Some may have been mentioned above.

ICG. The ICG currently operates about 130 surface vessels, including 60 ships which are offshore patrol vessels, fast patrol vessels and pollution-control vessels. It has another 18 hovercrafts and 52 small interceptor boats/crafts. It possesses 39 Dornier maritime surveillance aircraft, 19 Chetak helicopters and four Dhruv choppers.

It has been allocated 2,700 crore which is more than 2,200 crore allotted in the revised estimates of 2017-18. The amount is allocated for the acquisition of ships like advanced offshore patrol vessels, inshore patrol vessels, fast patrol vessels, helicopters, aircraft, etc. to bolster their coastal security capability. It was reported last year that the Government had approved a 31,748 crore “definitive five-year action programme” to modernise the ICG on August 17, 2017. Sources said the newly approved action plan is aimed at bolstering the CG into a 175-ship and 110-aircraft force by 2022. With this allotment it will remain only a wish list.

Conclusion

With about 80 per cent of the capital allocation going for past commitments, it is clear that in spite of the Government having the will, there is a dearth of funds for modernisation. After the implementation of the Seventh Pay Commission, a major chunks of the funds go into the revenue budget. This and the next year can be called the ‘election years’ and thus there are all chances of a further indirect squeeze in the capital allocation by slowing down the acquisition process. These funds will then go to those schemes which will fetch votes. We can now only look forward to the Budget of 2020.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Mar 2018 21:43

John wrote:
Philip wrote:The Talwars regularly won naval trophies for best warships.Their size and capability are ideal for fleet multi-role workhorses.They will carry BMos,SAMs,either Shtil or B-8,gatlings,anti-sub torpedoes,MBUs,plus an ASW/AEW helo,main gun and effective sensors for the same.They are not outdated by any means.Newer more mdoern sensors and eqpt. are used with every batch.The P-17s are oriented more heavily towards ASW tasking.with 2 Sea King sized helos,etc. .



Problem with Talwar is VL-Shtil is bit outdated because Orekh FCR has far too many limitations and it limits the overall system to around 30 Km range and only 2 target can be engage in one area (4 all together) during terminal phase. There is active guided Shtil but these vessels won't have it Barak-8 are far superior in range and dealing with saturation attacks.

Fregat is planar array radar it gets the job done but its design is cold war era design MF-Star and EL/M-2238 (fitted as secondary radar on Shivalik) are superior to it in terms of range and target tracking capability. If Barak-8 was fitted on 2nd batch shivalik we could removed Fregat and replaced it with 2238 (MF-Star might require redesign) as main radar.

Also Talwar design for mast is bit of relic (larger radar cross section and more cluttered design), navy is already designed fully enclosed composite masts so going back to it big step back.

And building 2 more vessels locally is not as straight forward as it seems Russians know have to adapt this design to be built here. So blueprints, parts and steel have to be indigenized.

There is no submarine funding conspiracy with this deal, it is straight up life line for Putin who desperately need $$ for all new weapons systems he advertised couple days ago.


Thanks thats useful to know. Talking about saturation attacks, is a 32 VLS enough on P15A ? It would have been better to have either just gone for more Shivaliks or built the Talwars in Russia. This insistence on make in india though excellent strategically can leads to silly decisions locally. But you cannot say no to PM directive.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Mar 2018 21:46

Re ^^ funding article posted by Philip sir.Great, we never seem to run out of reasons to not fund defence....so now a banking scam is the reason.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Mar 2018 21:49

When we'll PM show courage to increase defence budget overall I wonder. Much of the malaise stems from this drip feed..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 03 Mar 2018 00:51

Cain Marko wrote:^Because it is quite likely that new build Shivaliks would also take their own sweet time to come?

That is equally true for the Talwars.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 03 Mar 2018 00:53

Akshay Kapoor wrote:The whole problem is this divorce between the long term perspective plan, 5 year defence plan and annual budget. As Vidurji has said many times, even CCS clearance means nothing because fund actually come from annaul budget which bears 0 relation to 5 year defence plan and much less to long term perspective plan.

The obvious solution was to build 6-9 Shivaliks at one go (the long term perspective plan caters for this) but 5 year plan approval was for only 3. Idea being, that its a new class so test it first and then increase as P17A - this is driven by the many checks in the system (CAG, Ministry etc) so its a safer option. But P17A had to go through full process - DAC approvals for P17A came way back in 2011 I think and CCS approval came a couple of years later if memory serves right. But it meant nothing because annual budget did not allocate. They expired and had to be done again.

These piecemeal orders are costing us much more in the long term in financial terms as well as operational preparedness. Considering how long it takes us to design and build a new class of ships, ordering only 3 Shivaliks was foolish. But who will explain that to the bean counters?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 03 Mar 2018 01:02

Cain Marko wrote:When we'll PM show courage to increase defence budget overall I wonder. Much of the malaise stems from this drip feed..


whatever money you pour into capital expenditure from other countries is just money down the drain.. capabilities get obsolete with every passing year.. if you spend inside the country that will create capacity and capability to build new and improved versions. One needs a balance till the country is self sufficient.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 03 Mar 2018 02:17

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Thanks thats useful to know. Talking about saturation attacks, is a 32 VLS enough on P15A ? It would have been better to have either just gone for more Shivaliks or built the Talwars in Russia. This insistence on make in india though excellent strategically can leads to silly decisions locally. But you cannot say no to PM directive.

32 might be enough but really depends on # of vessels that are operating and the location they are operating in. Chances of encountering dozen missile boats that can throw out 96 AshM in a coordinated attack in Indian ocean is highly unlikely but Agosta 90Bs shooting of a dozen or so Exocet are more likely. However 32 SAM is not enough for prolonged operations' IMO.

Problem with this deal it has worst of both worlds if we wanted hulls fast should have all 4 vessels from Russia and not mix this in with "Make in India" spin. Now we have 2 hulls which are likely not going to get built anytime before 2025 and if history serves as a lesson will have cost overruns and both sides will blame each other for delays, poor communication, defects and cost overruns..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Mar 2018 03:51

kit wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:When we'll PM show courage to increase defence budget overall I wonder. Much of the malaise stems from this drip feed..


whatever money you pour into capital expenditure from other countries is just money down the drain.. capabilities get obsolete with every passing year.. if you spend inside the country that will create capacity and capability to build new and improved versions. One needs a balance till the country is self sufficient.

No doubt kitji, but the are soft term and strategic needs too that local industry might not be able to deliver

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Mar 2018 03:52

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:^Because it is quite likely that new build Shivaliks would also take their own sweet time to come?

That is equally true for the Talwars.


I thought two talwars are already fully built and just awaiting Zoryas from Ukraine?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 Mar 2018 05:20

Plan is to get them over here in as is whete is,and install engines,etc.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 04 Mar 2018 02:25

nachiket wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:The whole problem is this divorce between the long term perspective plan, 5 year defence plan and annual budget. As Vidurji has said many times, even CCS clearance means nothing because fund actually come from annaul budget which bears 0 relation to 5 year defence plan and much less to long term perspective plan.

The obvious solution was to build 6-9 Shivaliks at one go (the long term perspective plan caters for this) but 5 year plan approval was for only 3. Idea being, that its a new class so test it first and then increase as P17A - this is driven by the many checks in the system (CAG, Ministry etc) so its a safer option. But P17A had to go through full process - DAC approvals for P17A came way back in 2011 I think and CCS approval came a couple of years later if memory serves right. But it meant nothing because annual budget did not allocate. They expired and had to be done again.

These piecemeal orders are costing us much more in the long term in financial terms as well as operational preparedness. Considering how long it takes us to design and build a new class of ships, ordering only 3 Shivaliks was foolish. But who will explain that to the bean counters?


Bean counters are following their procedures. In some sense they are doing their jobs - they are career bereuacrats following their training, experience and ethos. As Vidurji says (and I have had some very interesting insights from him - I encourage everyone to read and re -read him) even the best of them have little interest in defence matters and its unfair to expect them to develop an interest, grasp the issues and take decisions to move things when there is no incentive and power structure also does not support it.

He also explained the currency of power structure - armd forces have little currency and the ones with a lot ie bureaucracy have little interest or stake. Why will an institution with high power see the problems of one with low. That's just not how things work in India and perhaps everywhwre. And the ones with the most currency and on whom the ultimate responsibility is ie politcians have to resolve this. The buck stops there.

Radical overhaul of the structure is needed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 05 Mar 2018 00:13

x posting

An interesting snippet

" If the F119 is reduced to the EJ200s size, it would be 4 meters long and 93 cm in diameter, compared to 74 cm for the EJ200. Inlet diameter would be 68,5 cm, dry weight ~1.000 kg, and thrust 91,4 kN (9.320 kgf). Thus it would have a TWR of ~9,32:1 and thrust-to-drag ratio of 24,8 N/cm2, or 92% of the current value, again confirming that larger engine offers better performance than two smaller engines."

Would a higher power Mark 3 Tejas obviate the need for a twin engine carrier fighter ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 05 Mar 2018 05:02

Of late the IN is being criticised for wanting as many incremental improvements even in limited series production of warships.This ensures lengthy delays, cost overuns resulting in backlogs at yards, and some knee-jerk firang acquisitions . It should instead like the Chins decide upon eqpt. without changes until the series batch is substantiatilly complete.Upgrades can be done later.This results in cost-effectiveness and healthy numbers.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 05 Mar 2018 05:12

^^^
Minimum order should be at least 6 ships for DDG/FFG class.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 05 Mar 2018 10:40

Actually to have economies of scale the minimum order should be twelve ships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 05 Mar 2018 16:56

Read the above post.No moolah for modernisation.Explains why our orders are so limited in tiny batches,barring the OPVs and now shallow water (Inshore) ASW corvettes.Only the titbits get built in large numbers,not the capital ships. Why we need that in-between class of light frigate/corvette of between 2000-2500t max,with all round capabilities incl. an ASW helo.,hangar large enough for a KA-31.To cost 1/3rd that of an FFG.Bigger vessels will be built in smaller number only.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 05 Mar 2018 18:15

Vivek K wrote:Actually to have economies of scale the minimum order should be twelve ships.

Only US,China and perhaps Japan have the naval budget to procure large no of surface combatants in that scale. IN can do that and span it over two decades in which case you end up get stuck with building an outdated design.

SYs are currently the bottleneck due to slow pace at which vessels are launched and especially fitted (see Visakhapatnam).

This deal for talwar does nothing to address that if we are desperate for ships should have ordered all 4 from Russia. Then have Goa assemble Kamrota based light multi purpose Frigates armed with 8 Brahmos and 16 Barak-8. Instead having GSL retool for just 2 talwar frigates doesn't sound like a sane idea.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 05 Mar 2018 21:38

Said before.Xtra Talwars were an item on the IN's wishlist years ago.The Grig offer was unexpected due to the UKR crisis.

Navh chief has just had a long inyerview with Arnab.Repub.TV.our own "RT"!
He was blunt with both China and Pak and his forthright bluntness will make them think v.hard before testing us in the IOR..

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 05 Mar 2018 22:12

We need a smaller vessel that can be built in large numbers, IMHO. Flat out war with another major power like Cheen is unlikely and as talked about before neither us nor them had been in a hot war since the 1970’s with the exception of Kargil which favors us experience wise.

The real contest would be in the gray zone during peace time. You need numbers to project presense and therefore jurisdiction.

The P17A at nearly 7K tons and over $1.1B is a destroyer-sized vessel and costs as much. We have 7 building and planned but at that price it is unlikely we could afford a dozen or more.

The chini Type 054A are built by the dozens with at least 26 commissioned and more in the pipeline. They are far smaller at 4K tons but comparably armed with 32-cell VLS for AA/ASW and 8 anti-ship. The key is their cost based on a smaller hull: $350M.

The price is well researched and considers an offer from Cheen to Thailand:

https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/how-much-do-chinas-warships-actually-cost/

The $348 million unit cost estimate dovetails reasonably well with the price at which China offered Type 054 frigates to Thailand in early 2013. Thailand’s Navy sought to spend $1 billion on new frigates and China reportedly offered three Type 054s at that price. China’s offer of ships at an effective price of $333 million each suggests that with higher international-level profit margins built in, the actual delivered ship cost is likely between $350 million and $375 million per vessel.


The P17A at $1.1B should be better per ship with a 60% weight advantage but is one better than three? And if there is no war, can one giant frigate project presense and jurisdiction as well as three smaller ones? The answer is no.

We need a smaller more affordable frigate of around 4K tons where we can build 12, 15 or 24 without breaking the budget. We can’t build in those numbers at $1.1B a piece.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2018 22:54

X-posting..
Philip wrote:A good perspective of our future plans for the naval leg of the triad of our strat. deterrent./

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/story/?id ... Submarines

Strategic Base for Nuclear Submarines
The growing prowess of the third leg of India’s nuclear triad may be slow to take-off and emerge as a potent force, yet it already has all essentials to employ deterrence in the region


Issue: 1 / 2018By Rear Admiral Sushil Ramsay (Retd)Photo(s): By MOD
INS Arihant
Close on the hels of Golden Jubilee celebrations of the Submarine Arm came a report on in-principle approval of the Central Government for clearance of the acquisition of 676 hectares of forest land in Rambilli off Visakhapatnam, Andhra Pradesh for the classified Nuclear Submarine Base on the eastern seaboard was received with a big cheer. This proposal had been languishing for the past seven years, or more. The ambitious Nuclear Submarine Base, code-named Project Varsha has been conceived and planned as a strategic asset of the nation, to be a stealthy base for the emerging prowess of the third leg of the Nuclear Triad. The Base is designed to contain whole gambit of maintenance, support infrastructure, technical area and the command and control centre, way beyond the range and reach of the hostile satellites to snoop.

Phase I of Project Varsha which is designated as the Naval Alternate Operating Base is already on stream and progressing very well. The approval-in principle for Phase II is a real shot in the arm and will now propel the project to start expanding vital facilities to safely house recharge stations and technical support areas for future nuclear-powered strategic assets to break out at the time of own choosing under favourable conditions.

Reportedly, the approvals are in place for the project to establish a new missile testing range in the Andaman Islands and a few more strategic facilities to be dispersed in Madhya Pradesh. In the past there were serious impediments and inordinate delays in acquiring land for critical needs to store, service and manufacture equipment for nuclear assets like missiles, warheads, etc.

Project Varsha is a strategic joint venture between Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Indian Navy. The forest area for which clearance has been awarded recently is ideal to provide camouflage and concealment to this vital and strategic facility. The area is located at Varahat and Sarada River front which provides a safe entry into the Bay of Bengal to launch nuclear submarines on operational missions.

Naval Advanced Operating Base

Over the past 50 years Eastern Naval Command has witnessed phenomenal growth such that its present location has saturated to the extent that additional infrastructure and facilities are now not possible at Visakhapatnam. Hence, the futuristic projects of the Command have to be dispersed to village Rambilli which is 50 km south of Visakhapatnam. The new naval base has been designated as the Naval Advanced Operating Base (NAOB) which is designed to construct underground submarine pens to house the expanding fleet of nuclear submarines and to protect them from snooping by satellites and air strikes.

It is estimated that with the clearance for land acquisitions, the development work on the classified base will receive significant boost and gather momentum in a big way for the construction of tunnels, jetties, depots, workshops and accommodation. The recent clearance for land acquisitions is expected to pave way for a sprawling and futuristic base to be spread over 20 sq km. Also, just 20 km away at Atchutapuram, the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) is constructing a research and development complex that will support the submarine base. About 845 hectares have already been handed to BARC for the new facility.

Future Ready Force Levels

Submersible Ship Ballistic Missile Nuclear
With the commissioning of INS Arihant, India has already acquired the membership of the elite club of six comprising the US, Russia, the UK, France and China to indigenously build a Submersible Ship Ballistic Missile Nuclear (SSBN). INS Arihant can carry twelve Sagarika (K-15) Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles (SLBMs) that have a range of 700 km. In addition to the proven K-15, DRDO is also developing a longer-range SLBM, designated as K-4, which the future SSBNs will also carry. INS Arihant is only equipped to handle four of the larger K-4s, as Arihant has four launch tubes but three K-15s can fit in each launch tube. The submarine can also carry torpedoes and Submarine Launched Cruise Missiles (SLCMs).

INS Arihant was built primarily as a training platform to indoctrinate the selected crew to master the art of operating and operationally exploit the SSBN optimally under all conditions. Government has approved construction of four follow-on SSBN of Arihant class. It is learnt that second SSBN design will be an upgraded version of Arihant and will pack greater firepower than the first SSBN of line. Reportedly, the second SSBN is likely to be fitted out with eight vertical launch tubes, allowing it to carry twenty-four K-15 missiles or eight K-4 missiles. In addition, the new boats will have a reactor more powerful than the INS Arihant’s 83 MW pressurised light-water reactor. The new reactor will use uranium as fuel and light water as a coolant and moderator, which will allow it to operate stealthily and will have submerged endurance of about two months. The new SSBN will be able to clock submerged speed of 24 knots.

The growing prowess of the third leg of India’s nuclear triad may be slow to takeoff and emerge as a potent force, yet it already has all essentials to employ deterrence in the region

Reportedly the Indian Navy will have five SSBNs in its arsenal that will be capable of launching missiles to a target range of over 5,000 km, eventually. The Arihant class of SSBNs are critical for the secondstrike option in case India comes under a nuclear attack. The first of its class, INS Arihant, is already operational, while its successor, the Arighat, is being outfitted at Visakhapatnam. The second SSBN Arighat which was earlier speculated to be named as Aridhaman is being readied for eventual induction. The submarine has been launched into water and has now entered the crucial phase of outfitting. The submarine was launched by Defence Minister, Nirmala Sitharaman last year which was kept under a wrap to keep away from hostile gaze. It is an open secret that the first of line has a far longer gestation period than its follow-on. Thus Arihant which was launched in the summer of 2009 was commissioned as INS Arihant under a quiet ceremony by Chief of the Naval Staff during August 2016. Having learnt the right lessons and after gaining vital experience, Indian Navy is now aiming at an ambitious target of two years to commission Arighat.

Submersible Ship Nuclear
During February 2015 construction of six Submersible Ship Nuclear (SSN) to bridge the gap of force level of 28 conventional submarines as per original perspective plan for building and modernisation of the Submarine Arm, was approved by the Government. The mammoth plan, expected to cost over $12 billion, is for six modern SSNs to be made in India. It is learnt that the design work which is a derivative of Arihant class has already started and the ambitious project for a new class of submarines is expected to fructify within 15 years.

Strategic Perspective
An ambitious and strategically crucial Project Varsha has all the ingredients to be classified as a valuable and worthy counterpart of the futuristic naval base established at Karwar under ‘Project Seabird’ in coastal Karnataka to give India’s maritime forces both strategic depth and operational flexibility on the western seaboard against Pakistan. Phase I of Karwar naval base is complete and part sanction of Phase II is also in place While Karwar will eventually decongest an already over-crowded Mumbai harbour, Project Varsha too holds the identical promise for the Eastern Naval Command on the eastern seaboard.

Total credit is due to the vision and farsightedness of the naval planners for conceiving and planning ambitious Project Varsha to house; Forwarding Operating Base and Operational Turn-around bases on the eastern seaboard for growing force levels of Eastern Naval Command. The Base promises to emerge as a state of the art, latest technology enabled infrastructure, support and maintenance facilities, technical area for preparation of weapons, missiles, etc. This is indeed a forward looking initiative as in the future newer warships, aircraft carrier, aircraft, drones, support auxiliaries, etc. will require wide berths for housing, launching and operating.

Project Varsha will have all the ingredients, albeit at smaller scale to match China’s massive underground nuclear submarine base at Yalong on the southernmost tip of Hainan Island, which houses its new Shang-class SSNs and the Jin-class SSBNs. The growing prowess of the third leg of India’s nuclear triad may be slow to take-off and emerge as a potent force, yet it already has all essentials to employ deterrence in the region. It is this realisation which will compress the build and induction cycle of Arighat, the second SSBN and the follow-on programme. Likewise, construction of six SSNs will also be energised to ensure that the project comes on stream with quite efficiency.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 06 Mar 2018 00:06

John wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Actually to have economies of scale the minimum order should be twelve ships.

Only US,China and perhaps Japan have the naval budget to procure large no of surface combatants in that scale. IN can do that and span it over two decades in which case you end up get stuck with building an outdated design.

SYs are currently the bottleneck due to slow pace at which vessels are launched and especially fitted (see Visakhapatnam).

This deal for talwar does nothing to address that if we are desperate for ships should have ordered all 4 from Russia. Then have Goa assemble Kamrota based light multi purpose Frigates armed with 8 Brahmos and 16 Barak-8. Instead having GSL retool for just 2 talwar frigates doesn't sound like a sane idea.


So we cannot match Chinese ship-building - that sounds like a problem. We cannot rely on "superior quality" alone. Imagine if we could build 12 ships of a type like the Chinese, what that would do to employment and poverty? That should be the goal. Why build Indian ships elsewhere? Why help build their MIC - what does it get India in return? A overpriced ship, delivered behind schedule and with little or no after sales support.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 06 Mar 2018 00:24

John, can you please do a comparison of Shivaliks and Talwars. Strengths, weaknesses, pro and cons ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 06 Mar 2018 04:13

Katare wrote:John, can you please do a comparison of Shivaliks and Talwars. Strengths, weaknesses, pro and cons ?

Sure.

Design: Shivalik. While both vessels incorporate radar cross section reduction. Shivalik incorporates far more of these features and super structure is fully enclosed and weapon systems like torpedo tubes are tucked away inside the structure. Talwar in other hand doesn't even have enclosed mast which makes the mast rather cluttered and should give much higher radar cross section. Also Shivalik incorporates great deal of IR and noise reduction.

Hanger: Shivalik. Shivalik can operate 2 medium helos or one large helicopter, where as Talwar's landing pad and hanger are quite limited in space.

Propulsion: Shivalik. CODOG is superior to COGAG (Talwar) in terms of ASW operations (lower noise) and range when operating on just Pielstick.

Radar suite: Shivalik. The EL\M-2238 is superior to Fregat where as former is phased array radar the latter is planar array radar with design dating back to cold war. While 2238 serves as secondary radar it can potentially replace Fregat and be used as primary radar and used to guide Barak-8 SAM.

Weapon Suite: Shivalik. Both vessels are fairly comparable but Shivalik has the advantage with its twin Rbu-6000 weapon system where as Talwar only single Rbu-6000. Both vessels can be fitted with Kashtan or two Ak-630 + Barak-1 combination. Russians seem to have already fitted Ak-630 on later Grigorovich vessels so i suspect IN will not get Kashtan-M but rather Ak-630 and will fit Barak-1 or SR-SAM during refit.

Main Gun: Toss up. Oto 76 mm is license built locally and is proven weapon system with ability to fire DART and Vulcano rounds. But A-190 is 100 mm at a rate of fire of 80 rate of fire. While on paper A190 looks to be superior, Oto is far easier to maintain and offers more versatility.

EW/ECM/Sonar: Even, Any locally built talwar is likely to get domestic suite similar to what is fitted on P-15A/B/Shivalik.

Cost: Talwar? This deserve question mark since the deal is currently 750 million (another 30 million for turbines?) each where as Shivalik cost around 500-600 million in 2010, i suspect if Shivalik are built now will cost around 800-850 million.

Also current cost figures for Talwar doesn't include any potential cost overruns which are likely to happen while Talwar are built in GSL.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 06 Mar 2018 16:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRfT0NicDhQ


Admiral Sunil Lanba Speaks To Arnab Goswami | Nation Wants To Know




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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Mar 2018 16:32

the talwar helideck looks like it could be awash in heavy seas...


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