Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 06 Mar 2018 16:44

Singha wrote:the talwar helideck looks like it could be awash in heavy seas...


It is an occupational hazard.

The motion of the helo deck during heavy weather is actually the one place where a person can truly experience the totality of the six degrees of freedom.

Best to be done on an empty stomach. :)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Katare » 06 Mar 2018 21:35

John wrote:
Katare wrote:John, can you please do a comparison of Shivaliks and Talwars. Strengths, weaknesses, pro and cons ?

Sure.

Design: Shivalik. While both vessels incorporate radar cross section reduction. Shivalik incorporates far more of these features and super structure is fully enclosed and weapon systems like torpedo tubes are tucked away inside the structure. Talwar in other hand doesn't even have enclosed mast which makes the mast rather cluttered and should give much higher radar cross section. Also Shivalik incorporates great deal of IR and noise reduction.

Hanger: Shivalik. Shivalik can operate 2 medium helos or one large helicopter, where as Talwar's landing pad and hanger are quite limited in space.

Propulsion: Shivalik. CODOG is superior to COGAG (Talwar) in terms of ASW operations (lower noise) and range when operating on just Pielstick.

Radar suite: Shivalik. The EL\M-2238 is superior to Fregat where as former is phased array radar the latter is planar array radar with design dating back to cold war. While 2238 serves as secondary radar it can potentially replace Fregat and be used as primary radar and used to guide Barak-8 SAM.

Weapon Suite: Shivalik. Both vessels are fairly comparable but Shivalik has the advantage with its twin Rbu-6000 weapon system where as Talwar only single Rbu-6000. Both vessels can be fitted with Kashtan or two Ak-630 + Barak-1 combination. Russians seem to have already fitted Ak-630 on later Grigorovich vessels so i suspect IN will not get Kashtan-M but rather Ak-630 and will fit Barak-1 or SR-SAM during refit.

Main Gun: Toss up. Oto 76 mm is license built locally and is proven weapon system with ability to fire DART and Vulcano rounds. But A-190 is 100 mm at a rate of fire of 80 rate of fire. While on paper A190 looks to be superior, Oto is far easier to maintain and offers more versatility.

EW/ECM/Sonar: Even, Any locally built talwar is likely to get domestic suite similar to what is fitted on P-15A/B/Shivalik.

Cost: Talwar? This deserve question mark since the deal is currently 750 million (another 30 million for turbines?) each where as Shivalik cost around 500-600 million in 2010, i suspect if Shivalik are built now will cost around 800-850 million.

Also current cost figures for Talwar doesn't include any potential cost overruns which are likely to happen while Talwar are built in GSL.


Thanks John, short concise and to the point like your any other post at BRF!

In respect of the bolded/underline section above - You mean EL2238 is secondary Radar on Shivalik? Or did you mean that EL2238 is a secondary Radar on Talwars (to guide Barak-1, I assume) but they can be used as primary to like on Shivaliks?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 07 Mar 2018 05:00

Katare wrote:
Thanks John, short concise and to the point like your any other post at BRF!

In respect of the bolded/underline section above - You mean EL2238 is secondary Radar on Shivalik? Or did you mean that EL2238 is a secondary Radar on Talwars (to guide Barak-1, I assume) but they can be used as primary to like on Shivaliks?

Sorry wasn't too clear El\M-2238 is the secondary air\surface search radar in Shivalik. I suspect it serves as target acquisition radar for Barak-1 since it's superior to Fregat however we are stuck with Fregat because of Shtil.

In Talwar frigate we have Pozitiv radar as the secondary radar not sure what variant is used in Admiral Grigorivich FFG. Talwar doesn't look like it can support beefier secondary radar like El\M-2238 or even 3d-CAR.

I was proposing if we build another batch of Shivalik FFG we can switch over to using 2238 radar in place of Fregat ( Perhaps fit 3d-CAR as the secondary radar) and fit Barak-8 SAM.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 07 Mar 2018 13:03

We already have 7 more P-17As on the anvil.A new futuristic design will be required post 2030. This will give us approx. 10P-17/As,10 P-15A/Bs,10 P-28 corvettes and approx. 10+ Talwar-1/2/3s .These would be our principal surface combatants , from legacy G-B and K/K classe.s Both P-17As and Talwars/Grigs,come with high costs/unit.A smaller light frigate/large corvette class is also reqd.,so that we have sufficient numbers of surface warships to deal with the threat from China in particular.

There was some time ago,a vclip of futuristic IN designs,multi-hulled surface combatants.Never saw it again.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 07 Mar 2018 18:19

This venture should've been started decades ago during Adm.Bhagwat's time! But better late than never.The retd. officers of the In and the other services is a massive pool of experienced officers who've specialised in various disciplines of their service and have vast experience in operating milware in diverse conditions. They should be for at least 5 years after retirement used to assist the services,DRDO,DPSUs in developing desi systems in the task of greater indigenisation,saving the nation billions.There was a post recently where the difference between India and other countries like Russia for instance,where celebrated scientists and designers never retired! They were allowed to work as long as they felt useful.We on the other hand pension off brilliant minds who flock to the pvt. sector to kepe themselves busy,a pity.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 192355.cms
Navy researches ways to build stealth submarines
TNN | Updated: Mar 6, 2018,

Pune: A group of 30 officers from Indian Navy will engage in an elaborate research at the Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (DIAT) here with a view
to reduce vulnerability of military submarines and ships to detection by the enemy from noise and vibrations generated by propulsions that run them.
Commodore A K Sinha (retd), DIAT registrar, who also specialises in submarines, told TOI on Tuesday, “The naval headquarters recently communicated to us the need for a collaborative research project on this aspect. As of now, 30 naval officers are pursuing advanced postgraduate studies at DIAT and these officers, along with the institute’s professors, will work on the project.”
Sinha said, “The project, to be directly monitored by naval headquarters, is at a primary stage and we are working on various aspects related to it. Our laboratories will play a key role as they have modern equipment essential for carrying out such research. The practical aspect of the project will be carried out by the navy on its ships and submarines.”
Element of stealth is critical to military submarines which are designed to move around undetected under the sea and surface only in situations where they need to establish radio contact or perform data communication with their respective headquarters.
A senior navy officer, who did not wish to be named, told TOI over phone, “Every ship and submarine is equipped with different types of propulsion system and each of these systems generate a particular type of noise or vibration underwater. Using sound navigation and ranging, better known as sonars, the enemy can identify the type of ship or submarine, distance and its speed. Reducing or tweaking propulsion sound of ship and submarine will give a big operational advantage.”
He said, “Modern generation stealth submarines are difficult to track. The submarines of Class A212 of German Federal Navy or Saab A26 of Swedish Navy have been designed in such a way that they hardly make any noise, emit almost no heat and minutely reflect radar or sonar signals. To develop such systems, researchers need to carry out studies so that we can develop such systems indigenously.”
Another senior navy officer said, “Propulsions generate maximum noise and vibrations under water. If you equip ship or submarine with silent propulsion, you will have to compromise on speed and longevity of the vehicle. Therefore, having a new propulsion system which will generate less noise and vibration and at the same time have no effect on other functioning of ships and submarines is critical.”

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 13 Mar 2018 13:22

INTEGRATED HEADQUARTERS OF MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (NAVY)
DIRECTORATE OF INDIGENISATION (DOI): REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS (RFP)
INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT OF SUBMARINE BATTERY TYPE-II
1. RFP is invited for developing second source for design and development of the Type–II Batteries
for SSK Class of Submarines of the Indian Navy as per brief technical specification furnished
below
http://tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.asp?tid=del941761&wno=1&td=TD

Interested Firms qualifying the above eligibility criteria are to forward a formal request for RFP and
Technical details by fax/ letter to this Directorate by 23 March 2018. Requests received after
23 March 2018, will not be entertained.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 13 Mar 2018 14:29

Indian Navy to get Boeing's P-81 simulator for sophisticated mission training(18) The Indian Navy currently operates eight Boeing P-81 aircraft. Boeing is expected to start delivering four more P-81 starting 2020 as part of a follow-on order placed in 2016 bythe Indian Navy. With the Ministry approving the purchase of the Boeing's P-81 Training Solution at the cost of $304 million, Boeing will soon be setting up a maritime reconnaissance aircraft training suite in India, The contract would include setting up of the simulator module at the Indian Naval Station Rajali at Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu, along with a 10 year maintenance service agreement
.
as per MOD jan update

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 13 Mar 2018 18:57

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/973528481740087297 ---> An updated round-up of the Indian Navy's current shipbuilding projects in a Parliament report today:

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 13 Mar 2018 19:32

But even bolder steps are required,a far more pro-active stance by India especially in the Maldives,which is slid out of our grasp

https://asia.nikkei.com/Viewpoints/Sree ... with-China
India belatedly boosts naval competition with China

March12, 2018
Sreeram Chaulia

New Delhi needs partnerships to make up for lost opportunities
Indian warships on parade off the coast of Mumbai © Reuters

The signing of a military agreement between India and France granting mutual access to naval bases is a clear indication that India is ramping up its defense diplomacy in response to China's growing presence in the Indian Ocean.

The March 10 deal was hailed by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi as "a golden step" and the visiting French President Emmanuel Macron as a milestone to prevent the Pacific and Indian Oceans from "becoming zones for hegemonic power."

It paves the way for Indian armed forces to use France's defense installations in Djibouti, Abu Dhabi and Reunion Island, all pivotal locations in the western Indian Ocean.

After years of Indian policy restraint allowed China to steal a march and establish a strong maritime presence in what New Delhi sees as India's strategic zone, Modi is bolstering the country's claims in a vast watery expanse where 80% of the world's oil flows via coveted sea lanes and chokepoints.

But with access to prime ports lost to Beijing, and a much smaller defense budget than China, New Delhi must rely heavily on partnerships to try to make up the difference.

Related stories
With China in mind, India and France deepen military cooperation
India and Vietnam to strengthen defense ties against assertive China
Just weeks before securing access for his warships to France's possessions, Modi gained entry to the port of Duqm through a military agreement with Oman in February that will allow Indian military vessels to dock for maintenance.

Duqm will help India to buttress its most valuable asset in the Arabian Sea, the Iranian port of Chabahar, which is New Delhi's gateway to Afghanistan and Central Asia.

Further south off the east African coast, India is working to improve surveillance and defense infrastructure by developing Assumption Island with the Seychelles and Agalega Island with Mauritius. Taken together, the French footholds and the naval arrangements with Middle Eastern and African countries help advance India's claims to be a "net security provider" in the Indian Ocean.

The proactive defense diplomatic initiatives under Modi since 2014 are a marked departure from the doubts that historically have cost India heavily as it conceded geopolitical space to adversaries, notably China.

As an independent developing country with a sense of post-colonial grievance, India once abhorred power politics and rejected the quest for overseas military bases as imperialist. During the height of the Cold War, India vehemently opposed American, British and French militarization of the Indian Ocean and sought to exclude these "extra-regional powers" from its maritime neighborhood.
deological objections to engage in geopolitics and use the Indian military to establish a sphere of influence continued to restrain New Delhi even after the Cold War. The port of Hambantota at the southern end of Sri Lanka, which was handed over to China on a 99-year lease in 2017, was first offered to India in 2003.
Despite repeated invitations from the Sri Lankan government, Indian leaders hemmed and hawed, losing a chance to shape the central sector of the Indian Ocean region.

(The greatest foreign policy disaster by our MEA since Independence.I had repeatedly warned our jokers what was going to happen but they did ziltch.The prophet is not honoured in his own country)


The huge Chinese presence at Hambantota, close to the tip of southern India, has now become a strategic nightmare for New Delhi. In 2017, Modi extracted a commitment from Colombo for India to develop the Trincomalee port on Sri Lanka's east coast to counter the Chinese. Still, Hambantota poses a risk to India that echoes the threat the U.S once faced from the Soviet Union's presence in Cuba, just 90 miles from Florida's beaches.


In 2011, Vietnam offered New Delhi exclusive naval access to the port of Nha Trang, overlooking China's key naval and cyberwarfare center on Hainan Island. But India failed to move this proposition forward. New Delhi has since struggled to find a permanent base in the South China Sea region due to its relatively limited naval might and worries among Southeast Asian countries about upsetting China.

The aggressive inroads that China has made in the Indian Ocean over the last decade and Beijing's assertion that it does not accept these seas as India's "backyard" pose an unprecedented challenge to New Delhi. Regular Chinese naval activity in Myanmar, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the Maldives and Djibouti is worrying India and has increased pressure for a firm response.

Modi's government, which desires to make India a "leading power," believes vacillation and the failure to pursue opportunities in defense diplomacy have increased New Delhi's vulnerability to Beijing, which has put in place a "string of pearls" strategy to contain India with ports from Djibouti in the west to Myanmar in the east.

Myanmar's Kyaukphyu port, 70% of which is owned by China, is on the Bay of Bengal and serves as a potential barrier to the Indian navy expanding operations in East Asia. Although Kyaukphyu is a commercial venture designed as part of China's Belt and Road Initiative, India is apprehensive of the dual-use nature of most Chinese port projects
.

India is responding by attempting to overcome delays with its promised development of Myanmar's Sittwe port, which is New Delhi's answer to the Chinese presence at Kyaukphyu. India is rightly capitalizing on Myanmar's fear of overdependence on China. The idea is to reinforce India's eastern flank, just as, on its western side, India is planning to use Duqm and Chabahar in the Arabian Sea to counter China's showpiece project at Gwadar port in Pakistan.

While Modi is demonstrating a clear will to forge ahead and end strategic uncertainty, there are questions about whether India can bear the costs of its expanded naval strategy. India's defense spending, including advanced weapon systems, fell to a historic low in 2018 amounting to a mere 1.58% of GDP (the lowest since 1962). Domestic welfare and development needs rank high in India's democratic electoral dynamics and trump foreign policy priorities.

The economic benefits China dangles to poor nations throughout the Indian Ocean region surpass whatever grants or loans India can afford to muster. Yet, paucity of funds has not dulled India's eagerness. Aware that India cannot win a one-to-one contest with a richer China, Modi is relying on partnerships with friendly countries.

Economic links and naval interoperability programs are emerging under the "quadrilateral" defense cooperation involving India, Japan, Australia and the U.S. -- a grouping with the implicit aim of containing China's expansionism.

Bilateral arrangements such as those with France are belated but essential for New Delhi to avoid losing its strategic competition with Beijing. Gone are the days when India was indecisive in foreign defense policies and was being left behind. But sustaining the robust approach it is now pursuing demands better long-term planning and execution.

Sreeram Chaulia is a professor and dean at the Jindal School of International Affairs in Sonipat, India. His most recent book is "Modi Doctrine: The Foreign Policy of India's Prime Minister."

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Neshant » 15 Mar 2018 10:52

India needs to clear this up with SL asap.
They are creating more and more of a danger to us by permitting the installation of Chiense spy bases.


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 15 Mar 2018 12:36

I am sure the GOI will take up the matter with the GOSL.Putin interview reveals his enormous mental acumen and tenacity in making Russia both militarily and economically strong.
We have to be far more pro- active in our own backyard to keep the Chinese out.It requires large funding of the IN for an expanded balanced fleet along with maritime strike aircraft ( Backfires) now that the Bears are retd.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Will » 15 Mar 2018 22:26

Opportunities have been lost in the past no doubt but it all has to be taken with a pinch of salt. China with its economic might can out spend India and gain a toe hold where it really wants to. No one, let alone India can stop all these attempts of Chinese expansion in the IOR. What India can do, is develop counters which it is doing now with overseas bases. The problem is that India needs another 15-20 years more to have enough economic might to counter China to the level required. For the time being India must take a leaf out of the Chinese book and bide its time till it can match the Chinese in real terms. In the meantime build up capabilities steadily keeping in mind economic constraints. Trying to outspend China or out do them at every stage is foolish. India needs to play to its strengths and its greatest strength is that it straddles the Indian Ocean with its huge landmass and island chains. The Chinese are foolish if they think they can dominate the India ocean. The surface fleet of the PLAN navy are sitting ducks for Indian land based aircraft. if India can enhance its underwater fleet and surveillance capabilities India will still retain the advantage. Don't forget that the current big daddy , the Americans have a sizable presence in the IOR.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Mar 2018 03:38

somebody pls record this....video in link below...

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/9 ... 4653496320 ---> Please watch out for this special never-seen-before series on submariners by Discovery IN this Monday at 9 pm on Discovery Channel.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2018 01:03

So possibly more delays in the Project 75I program....

Second, third Scorpene Class submarines undergoing sea trials, says Indian Navy official
http://www.financialexpress.com/defence ... l/1101676/

“The second and third of the six Scorpene-class submarines are undergoing sea trials while the fourth, fifth and the sixth are under construction. We want to focus on first getting all these submarines commissioned, before going in for more submarines,” Vice Admiral Srikant said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 17 Mar 2018 07:58

There's a feature in Pop.Sc.(?) I think about China's relentless naval warship and sub building programmes.New N-powered CVs from 2030, Type 96 SSN, etc., etc.Massive new facilities , I remember an earlier post where 2 N-subs could be built simultaneously.
There is simply no way we can challenge the PRC except but to augment subs and warships in the inventory with accelerated desi construction including pvt. yards, plus some acquisitions from abroad.

By the time we "wait and watch" our Scorpenes being built, China would've built around a dozen!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 17 Mar 2018 15:58

The Chins are planning a large arsenal ship concept that we've discussed over a decade ago a semi-submersible vessel that submerges to avoid missile attack.They have two concepts apparently, one an arsenal sub and the other as above which has wave riding capabilities.One concept has a twin sail.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pravula » 18 Mar 2018 06:50

Philip wrote:The Chins are planning a large arsenal ship concept that we've discussed over a decade ago a semi-submersible vessel that submerges to avoid missile attack.They have two concepts apparently, one an arsenal sub and the other as above which has wave riding capabilities.One concept has a twin sail.


Most modern ASMs are top attack, no?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 18 Mar 2018 17:12

Final trajectory could be sea-skimming or vert. attack.Depends upon the target and its defence capability, after identification and compared with its details in the "library", then factored in before launching the missile to exploit its weaknesses.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 18 Mar 2018 19:48

Second in the Godavari Class series of vessels. The first (Godavari) was decommissioned in 2015. Only one left now - INS Gomati.

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 5880156160 ---> INS Ganga - the oldest ship of the Western Fleet, is scheduled for decommissioning on 22 March 2018 at Mumbai.

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kersi » 18 Mar 2018 20:07

Rakesh wrote:Second in the Godavari Class series of vessels. The first (Godavari) was decommissioned in 2015. Only one left now - INS Gomati.

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 5880156160 ---> INS Ganga - the oldest ship of the Western Fleet, is scheduled for decommissioning on 22 March 2018 at Mumbai.

Image


So slowly but steadily the 'Styx' is going out of IN. Long overdue. But can IN salvage and use the components like the Israeli Barak launchers radar n FCS, The Oto Melra gun etc ?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 19 Mar 2018 01:10

Just looking at her, she is still a formidable lady with a good punch.I remember that in the past the retiring vessels used to be despatched to the training command,
No idea what her hull and machinery status is like but she has more firepower thanvour AOPVs.Yes, there's a lot that can be salvaged at least for the last 'G' class and perhaps even for the 3 'B' class FFGs, the stretched Gs.

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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Peregrine » 19 Mar 2018 03:25

X Posted on the Corresponding Indian Army and Indian Air Force Threads

Govt moves on integrated theatre commands; amends rules to bring three forces under single leadership

NEW DELHI: India has finally taken the first step towards eventually having integrated theatre commands, where all the manpower and assets of the Army, Navy and IAF are under the operational control of a single three-star general, by amending command and control rules for joint organisations and establishments.

Sources said the government has notified new “statutory rules and orders” to ensure an officer from any one service can now “exercise direct command” over personnel from the other two services, who are all governed by different acts and rules, in tri-service organisations.

The move has been implemented especially for the strategically-located Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC), which was established as India’s first theatre command in October 2001 but has largely failed to achieve its potential due to internecine turf wars among the three services, general politico-bureaucratic apathy, fund crunches and environmental concerns.

“It might seem a minor structural reform but represents a huge cultural, fundamental shift in the Indian military system, where the three services often pull in different directions. If the country is to have a chief of defence staff (CDS) and theatre commands in the years ahead, this tweaking of the Army, Navy and IAF rules is the first step towards it,” said a top source.

The naval commander-in-chief of the ANC can now directly control and discipline Army and IAF officers and other personnel under him, even as similar moves are afoot to eventually bring all land and assets under him in the archipelago. “It will serve as the template for theatre commands in the future.

Moreover, we need a fully unified approach in ANC due to the expanding Chinese threat in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR),” he added.

The NDA government had initially shown some drive for meaningful reforms in the country’s higher defence establishment in the shape of creating a CDS post and theatre commands to ensure much-needed synergy in training, logistics, planning, procurements and operations among the 1.5-million strong armed forces.

There was, for instance, even a proposal to create integrated theatre commands in the shape of one or two (one each for west and east of Nepal) for the northern border with China, a western command for Pakistan, a counterinsurgency operations command and one or two peninsular commands for the maritime borders.

But nothing concrete has come out of it. The armed forces currently have 17 single-service commands, with only two unified commands in ANC and the Strategic Forces Command to handle the country’s nuclear arsenal.

China, meanwhile, has reorganised its 2.3-million People’s Liberation Army into five theatre commands to crank up its offensive capabilities as well as establish better command-and-control structures.

Its western theatre command now handles the entire Line of Actual Control with India instead of the earlier Chengdu Military Region in the east and the Lanzhou Military Region towards the north, as was reported by TOI.

Cheers Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prem » 20 Mar 2018 01:21

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 20 Mar 2018 01:41



India's first indigenously built floating dock FDN-2 is all set to join the navy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 20 Mar 2018 04:30

Prem wrote:Image

Don't forget El\m-2238 radar wonder if these will get salvaged and used to replace lw-08.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 20 Mar 2018 12:05

For dedicated long range search radar BEL Improvised Mk-2 LW-08 is a better choice , The improved version from BEL has instrumented range of ~ 500 km and operates in L band , they will eventually have to replace it with Indian AESA Radar something similar to SMART-L.

Seems Ranvijay class will shoulder on for another decade with this new Brahmos and Barak-1 , Their hull would be like 40 years by then may be more

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SNaik » 20 Mar 2018 18:09

John wrote:
Katare wrote:
Thanks John, short concise and to the point like your any other post at BRF!

In respect of the bolded/underline section above - You mean EL2238 is secondary Radar on Shivalik? Or did you mean that EL2238 is a secondary Radar on Talwars (to guide Barak-1, I assume) but they can be used as primary to like on Shivaliks?

Sorry wasn't too clear El\M-2238 is the secondary air\surface search radar in Shivalik. I suspect it serves as target acquisition radar for Barak-1 since it's superior to Fregat however we are stuck with Fregat because of Shtil.

In Talwar frigate we have Pozitiv radar as the secondary radar not sure what variant is used in Admiral Grigorivich FFG. Talwar doesn't look like it can support beefier secondary radar like El\M-2238 or even 3d-CAR.

I was proposing if we build another batch of Shivalik FFG we can switch over to using 2238 radar in place of Fregat ( Perhaps fit 3d-CAR as the secondary radar) and fit Barak-8 SAM.


Elta describes 2238 as follows:
The antenna in the Doppler sensor has a planar array for 3D multi-beam operations and a vertical array of strip radiators.

Fregat-M2M is definitely a post-cold war development and uses passive phased array.

The larger two-faced STAR-Extended Range definitely can replace Fregat, but the smaller single-face version installed on Shivalik seriously lacks in range for that.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sohamn » 20 Mar 2018 22:58

John wrote:
Prem wrote:Image

Don't forget El\m-2238 radar wonder if these will get salvaged and used to replace lw-08.


That doesn't look like Godavari, but I think is INS Ranvijay. I think there is a few years left in that ship.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 21 Mar 2018 00:14

Admiral, any idea where I can find that sub documentary program link.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Peregrine » 21 Mar 2018 02:12

Vips wrote:

India's first indigenously built floating dock FDN-2 is all set to join the navy.
Vips Ji :

The Biggest Admiralty Floating Dock was built in Bombay in the Period - I think - 1942 to 1945.

I think its Lifting Capacity was for ships of up to 75,000 Tons possibly more.

At the end of World World Two it was towed to Malta Naval Dockyard.

Cheers Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 21 Mar 2018 13:50

Yet another blow to the MEA which is in retreat almost everywhere in our neighbourhood! It's report card has "failure" written all over it,esp. with regard to relations with our neighbours,who seem to have all ganged up with Chinese support to encircle us.The cobwebs in the MEA need to be swept out with ruthlessness as we have a bunch of Chinese apologists,Paki lovers,and ignoramuses as to how to deal with the neighbourhood protecting our key interests.

The Seychelles fiasco could've been not so jingoistically trumpeted.We culd've simply asked for a maritime research station to be set up,with an airstrip for logistic support,not a "naval base',which has its obvious connotations.Just see how the Chinese have wormed their way into the IOR littoral states with planned "commercial ops" at Htota,cleverly disguising the tens of thousands of hectares which they will possess for 99 years,throwing out the local Sinhalese and bringing in lakhs of uniformed Chinese to run their exclusive SEZ,some factories also churning out milware for export to IOR/African nations.They now want a "weather station" or research facility at the Ruhunu Univ.,at the southern tip of the island at Matara,which will actually be a surveillance-cum-communications stn. Both Colombo and the Maldives are now filled with thousands of chins on a daily basis familiarising themselves for the inevitable Chinese "takeaway".

Our Seychelles venture could've been thus earmarked for scientific work,surveying,etc,,etc. but equipped with the reqd. hardware for our purposes.
Let's hope that Mauritius,with its huge Indian origin community doesn't snub us too reg, Agalega!


https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/ ... untry.html
Deal is dead: Seychelles oppn says no to India's military base in country
AFP
Published Mar 21, 2018,

Seychelles' oppn coalition, which holds majority in parliament, said it would not ratify deal with India to build military base.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi with Seychelles President Danny Faure. (Photo: File | PTI)
Prime Minister Narendra Modi with Seychelles President Danny Faure. (Photo: File | PTI)
New Delhi/Victoria: Seychelles' opposition coalition, which holds a majority in parliament, said on Tuesday that it would not ratify a deal signed with India to build a military base on one of the archipelago's outlying islands.

The deal would see India invest USD 550 million dollars in building the base on Assumption island to help it ensure the safety of its vessels in the southern Indian Ocean.

Indian soldiers would be deployed on the island which lies 1,135 kilometres southwest from the capital Victoria, and help train Seychelles' troops.
Also Read: India's plan to build military base in Seychelles spurs controversy

However, the deal has faced some resistance from locals, and Wavel Ramkalawan, head of the opposition Linyon Demokratik Seselwa (Seychelles Democratic Union in Creole) said the coalition "will not ratify the Assumption deal. This deal is dead".

The LDS had held a majority in parliament since its victory in 2016 legislative elections.

On Monday, President Danny Faure said he would meet with Ramkalawan on March 26 to discuss the deal, which was agreed in principle in 2015 and then finalised in January this year.

The government says the base will help coastguards to patrol its 1.3 million square kilometre exclusive economic zone for illegal fishing, drug trafficking and piracy.

Currently, the remote coral island has a tin shack post office, an air strip and almost no people. Less than seven kilometres long the island has a high point just 30 metres above sea level and is covered in bird excrement.

But its location lends it strategic importance for monitoring shipping in the Mozambique Channel.

However, Indian presence in the Seychelles is a sensitive matter. Some fear an influx of Indian workers who, they say, might come to dominate the economy, while others consider a foreign power building a military base an affront to sovereignty and national pride.

Opponents of the plan also cite Assumption's relative proximity to Aldabra atoll, a UNESCO World Heritage Site that is home to the world's largest population of giant tortoises.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 21 Mar 2018 17:27

sohamn wrote:
John wrote:Don't forget El\m-2238 radar wonder if these will get salvaged and used to replace lw-08.


That doesn't look like Godavari, but I think is INS Ranvijay. I think there is a few years left in that ship.

Yes OP was using that picture to show what is in Godavari but yes D55 INS Ranvijay will be in service till atleast for another decade.

SNaik wrote:Elta describes 2238 as follows:
The antenna in the Doppler sensor has a planar array for 3D multi-beam operations and a vertical array of strip radiators.

Fregat-M2M is definitely a post-cold war development and uses passive phased array.

The larger two-faced STAR-Extended Range definitely can replace Fregat, but the smaller single-face version installed on Shivalik seriously lacks in range for that.


I was under the impression EL\M-2238 on Shivalik is the large variant (4.0mx2.0m) which has a range of 350 km (i believe Godavari is fitted with Medium variant if you compare the sizes). Fregat-M2EM i believe is around 300 km and take that with grain of salt from what i have heard Fregat radar performance has been bit disappointing. One of reasons Shivalik sports EL\M-2238 even though Barak has been integrated with Fregat.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/3/36843.pdf

Added: I have confirmed that Shivalik has the extended range STAR (source World Naval Review).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2018 23:05

Andaman and Nicobar
https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/the-a ... o-pacific/
The Andaman and Nicobar Islands: India’s Eastern Anchor in a Changing Indo-Pacific
Darshana M. Baruah

As India continues to develop the islands, it must prioritize strengthening its air, surface, and sub-surface surveillance capabilities. The islands need to be capable of basing and deploying surveillance resources and require stronger anti-submarine warfare and early warning capabilities. India should also upgrade the islands’ communications infrastructure and integrate it with maritime domain awareness facilities on the mainland. The current infrastructure is poor and cannot sustain a coherent surveillance strategy. There is an urgent need to enhance the islands’ intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance cover to fully utilize their potential.

However, transforming the islands from a strategic outpost to a key forward operating base will require significant development of the islands and procurement of new assets. The islands are currently home to modest military assets and infrastructure with tremendous, though underutilized, potential. Surveillance assets such as the P-8i’s are deployed to the Andamans from the mainland. The islands will require considerable military and civilian infrastructure to support the required force structure of a full-fledged forward operating military base.

However, developing these islands will carry massive environmental, sustainability, and tribal welfare challenges. There is an island-wide restriction on clearing land for development, and 94.68 percent of the islands is under forest cover. The presence of indigenous tribes on the islands has also restricted commercial activities and development near tribal areas. While the current government is taking initiatives to transform the islands into a maritime hub, the pace of progress is not fast enough to match maritime developments in the region.




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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 22 Mar 2018 00:56

The yanks are probably gritting their teeth in dis-belief that Britain handed over control of such important piece of real estate to us. They would love to have an outpost at the door in to IOR.All these suggestions about "India needs to ask it's partners to help" points to that direction..

There were murmurs during the Doklam about "ANC is not part of India" etc. They have an eye on it. I wonder about the effort required for Chinese to mountain an invasion on ANC.

Japanese captured the island after taking over Burma.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 22 Mar 2018 01:24

In 1965, Indonesia wanted to capture Andamans. So IN had heavy presence in BoB.

Truly, 1965 was a multi-front war - 2 fronts against Pakistan, and one potential from China and another potential on A&N.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2018 05:15

Anyone know if OFB was making 4.5" guns for ships?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby John » 22 Mar 2018 05:58

ramana wrote:Anyone know if OFB was making 4.5" guns for ships?

Are you referring to Mark 8 used by Royal navy?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2018 08:26

we should take a leaf from chinese book and develop huge naval and air bases in the nicobar chain but leave existing islands mostly untouched.
instead just dump rocks and sand and make 20 feet high flat islands for docks and air bases and supply depots, off the real islands.
burrow deftly into some andaman islands to make naval caves with minimal surface footprint!

nicobar being coral atolls vs volcanic islands of andaman, will be shallow sea and easy to build up. infact the area between andamans and thai coast is also shallow.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2018 20:54

There is expansion of runways happening now in the A&N islands. The plan is to have a 3+Km runway station long range Maritime partol aircraft there, along with MKI type planes.
MKIs are already on rotating deployment to Car Nicobar.
Port Blair has little space, but there is need for larger capital ships to be berthed there, including 65,000 Ton Carriers. Currently they anchor outside the inner harbour.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 22 Mar 2018 22:46

Get the soil for land island extn. from Indonesia that's what S'pore did.We also need floating accomodation for those serving in the A&N, old medium sized cruise shipsl of decent std., so that the islands remain untouched and their native tribes are allowed to live and flourish in peace.We can design an excellent floating settlement accessed through a long pier.See what Duubai has done with its residential islands in the sea.

Airstrips must all be capable of operating a Backfire / Bear type of aircraft which may be reqd. in the future.The US operates all its strat. bomber types at DG.So should we do in the ANC.We should also in some chosen ideal uninhabitated island have UG sub pens and a full- fledged sub base along with sub tenders. A mini Rambilli/ Karwar.

The beauty about floating accomodation/ ships is that they don't upset the environment.One can get the IN/ GOI any number of oil rigs in good condition for the same purpose.Towed from SPore and installed where needed, stripped of all drilling eqpt., etc. , converted into a floating hotel, even a casino.A proposal to someone which is in limbo.


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