Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14600
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2017 22:04

Here is an example for the cynics:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/inside- ... ip-1223971

Akash is automated as well.

But at the moment, the Commander of the ship and his First Officer, monitoring all of the ship's sensors and systems from their station in the middle of the Ops Centre, had a more immediate concern.

Ellora, the Electronic Warfare suite, had picked up emissions from the same area where the Kochi's surface search radar had earlier detected a contact. And the news was getting worse. Ellora had classified the threat. It was indeed a Chinese Type-052 D destroyer, a ship of the same class as the Kochi and the pride of the Chinese Navy.

Seconds later, a loud buzzer sounded. "Incoming missile!" shouted 'SAMs' - the Officer manning the Surface to Air Missile console. Far above him, electronic beams from the Israeli built MF-STAR (Multi-Function Surveillance, Track And Guidance Radar) had homed into a clear and present threat.

The Chinese destroyer had fired a long range YJ-18 'Eagle Strike' missile directly at the Kochi. "Second missile incoming!" shouted SAMs, as the radar began tracking a second and then a third Chinese subsonic missile headed straight in Kochi's direction.

But INS Kochi had an answer - the Barak-8 LR-SAM, a long range Surface to Air Missile system jointly developed by Israel and India.

Kochi had 32 missiles onboard, missiles designed to deal with exactly this threat.

"Another missile inbound. That makes it four missiles inbound!" - this was a worst case scenario - a saturation attack. The fate of the 390 Officers and Men on the Kochi was now effectively in the hands of a highly-automated weapon system.

Now in full-auto mode, the first Indian Barak 8 blasted off its vertical launcher ahead of the bridge of the destroyer. Accelerating quickly to four times the speed of sound, the missile shot straight up before arching in a parabola in the direction of the enemy missile it was assigned to intercept. The missile was not flying blind.


Critical data indicating the direction, speed and location of the incoming Chinese anti-ship missile was being fed to the Barak, enabling it to lock on to the first Chinese missile precisely.

In the final few seconds of its flight, the Barak, now being directed by data from its own radar, dove down towards the Chinese missile. In moments, its warhead would detonate, activated by a proximity fuse triggered when the distance between the Barak and the incoming enemy missile was no more than a few feet. The first Chinese Eagle Strike missile had been destroyed more than 70 kilometres away from the Kochi.

But with the Chinese destroyer launching its missiles in quick succession, the second, third and fourth Eagle Strike missiles, some flying different trajectories than the first, closed in on the Kochi.

The Kochi kept firing as the incoming missiles closed in, the automatic system assigning two missiles each to the final two missiles.

The Kochi's RBU-6000 anti-submarine rocket launcher, Barak missile silos and main gun visible from the Bridge of the Kochi.
Inside the Ops Centre, the Commander of the Kochi focussed straight ahead at a large LCD screen that dominated the Ops Centre. On it, critical data from 'SAM's' console was now being shown. And as they tried their best to focus on their individual systems, different officers manning other systems would glance up at the big screen to get an idea of what was happening. They all knew that this was life or death. And they all knew there was nothing really left for them to do. Unless they chose to deliberately intervene, the system was completely automated - Barak 8 surface to air missiles would keeping shooting off the fore and aft deck of the Kochi until every last incoming missile was destroyed. Or every last Barak missile had been fired.

And if the Eagle Strike missiles weren't intercepted, Kochi would still keep fighting. Two of four Russian-designed AK-630 anti-missile guns onboard the Kochi would collectively spew out 10,000 rounds per minute, creating a wall of lead between the Eagle Strike and the Kochi. The incoming missiles, it was hoped, would be obliterated as they tried to pierce this wall. And even as the missiles approached, there were other defensive systems on board the Kochi.

Ellora, the Electronic Counter Measures system would try and jam the radars of the incoming Eagle-Strike while 'Kavach', an indigenous system would fire aluminium chaff in the area to confuse the sensors of the Eagle Strike and make the missile veer away harmlessly from the ship.


So here an AI, or an algorithm (AI is far more complex and learns) if you prefer, uses a bunch of weapons and systems effectively, in a very timely fashion and humans intervene only if it makes some egregious error.

Note how the system automatically assigns two missiles to the closer target.

Now as the automation improves EVEN further, the warfighters with the better overall system have an advantage.

Much like the Rafale with sensor fusion (an algorithm taking away the clutter and deconflicting targets) has a huge advantage over say a Su-27 which too might detect targets via IRST/radar and RWR but they are grouped on different screens and the pilot has to manually decide which targets to engage, which targets to jam, and while doing all this has to focus on somehow not messing up his flying.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 07 Dec 2017 22:53

viveks wrote:Going a bit off topic. I was thinking the other day that...wouldn't it be so logical to build an airbase buried inside a Mountain range with only the runway ends popping out in camouflage, given the amount of tunneling experience we are getting. An aircraft can roll in the runway inside the mountain...get to a certain minimum height...and then when exposed to the open...continue the normal climb trajectory. Landing could be tricky but not impossible since we already have a carrier based landing experience.



The Swiss have this idea implemented.
So many Flight International issues used to have glossy pages.

Chinese are supposed to have their missile in such tunnels.

The drawback is with accurate missiles the tunnel entrances can be taken out even with conventional weapons.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3508
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 08 Dec 2017 01:14

This should have been resolved earlier, and not let the contract lapse. The title of the article is sensationalist, as one can expect from a journo like Vivek Raghuvanshi, but I'm pretty certain it'll be resolved with someone having to pay. Going through the contract between the IAF and HAL will tell whether this warranty expense was included in the price that IAF needs to pay HAL for the upgrade.

Upgrade of India's Mirage fleet in jeopardy as maintenance contract lapses



NEW DELHI — The upgrade of India’s Mirage 2000-H fleet could face a roadblock, after the maintenance warranty from original equipment manufacturers Dassault Aviation and Thales of France expired with nobody willing to continue footing the bill.

The two companies are demanding an annual maintenance fee of around $15 million from state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, the prime contractor on the upgrade, to extend the tooling & test machinery and equipment warranty that expired last month. HAL is refusing to pay, instead asking Indian Air Force to make the payments; IAF argues however that the annual maintenance fee is part the upgrade contract with HAL.


HAL executives refused to comment officially on the subject, but a company source said the company is pursuing the issue with the service. HAL is currently undertaking upgradation of 47 Mirage fighters independently — an effort that kicked off in 2015. Seven aircraft have been delivered to the IAF thus far.

HAL is currently undertaking upgradation of 47 Mirage fighters independently, under a contract awarded in 2015. Seven aircraft have been delivered to the IAF under that deal. India signed $2.1 billion with Thales and Dassault Aviation in July 2011 for upgradation of 51 Mirage 2000H upgraded to Mirage 2000-5 version. Under this deal, four aircraft were upgraded. Two French companies are also supplying new sub-sustems that are being incorporated into modified Mirage 2000-H aircraft.

A separate $900 million agreement was also singed with HAL in 2011 to carry out upgradation of the 47 Mirage aircraft in India.
Thales is the lead integrator for the upgrade program, whereas Dassault Aviation is the OEM and weapons support is provided by MBDA of France.

The upgrade program involves installation of new mission computers, pulse doppler radars, advanced navigation and electronic warfare systems, advanced communication systems and identification systems. In addition, cockpits of Mirage 2000-H are incorporated with two lateral displays, advanced head down display systems and glass cockpits. (Mr Vivek Raghuvanshi, glass cockpit refers to displays and head down multi-function displays, they're not different!!)

The modification of electronic warfare units involves installation of new radar warning receiver, missile approach warning receivers, jammers to track multiple threats simultaneously, counter measure dispensing systems and escort jammers for jamming surveillance acquisition radars. The modified aircraft will also be equipped with digital video recorder; data transfer system and real time simulation management system.

The upgrade of Mirage fleet is aimed at enhancement of performance and incorporates new weapons, which will provide an expected increase in total technical life to 40 years from original 25 years. (How is "enhancement of performance", whatever that means and incorporating new weapons going to increase the TTL of the Mirage? Stupid statement that makes no sense and ties two separate topics on the upgrade together. Obviously, there is some structural work involved which is extending their lives.

Another IAF official said the cost of upgrade does not include HAL’s man-hour costs to upgrade 47 aircraft, which it would undertake with technical assistance from the French suppliers.


In general, given the vague generalizations and sensationalism that are the norm with this particular journo, I would not take the figures he quotes as the gospel truth. But there is a hiccup in the upgrade process - if any of the equipment or tooling has issues that need to be resolved, the OEM may not respond in time or may ask for an exorbitant amount to get the issue fixed and knowing our MOD's penny pinching ways, it'll result a delay.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2017 02:24

Kartik very unclear article.
So India paid $2.1B in 2011 to France to upgrade 51 aircraft. Four have been delivered from this contract.

next HAL in 2015 is upgrading the remaining 47 aircraft and are being paid $900M. Of these seven have been delivered.

So remaining are 40 aircraft.

Meantime tooling and test equipment calibration contract expired.

Now the world over test equipment, tooling is the mfg supplier responsibility to ensure the stuff is in calibration. They know when the stickers expire.

They should negotiate with their suppliers to ensure the stuff is in calibration dates.

Now they should by accounting rules pass it on to the customer as cost of doing business.

The customer on the other hand can directly negotiate with the supplier for the maintenance and calibration contract.
But this is cumbersome and when HAL has physical custody of the equipment they should have the onus to get the stuff with in calibration.

And Pressitute are gleeful that IAF is getting shafted.


I don't understand this quibbling over $15 M on $3B contract ($2.1+$ 0.9)B. How did this get to this situation?

Some one in HAL was sleeping on the wheel to let the contract expire and now blames the customer.

They need to negotiate with their suppliers.
PERIOD.

Not good.


Kartik, Usually calibration stickers on mfg tooling, test Equipment and they run tests and are good for a year. So its an annual contract. So what happened here?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14600
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 08 Dec 2017 02:55

Dollar 15M dispute on a contract of this magnitude. This fear of CAG is making monkeys out of HAL folks. Pardon my French. And MOD has in prior eras gleefully fiddled away like Nero.

Anyhow one interesting snippet.
(excerpt)....
The modification of electronic warfare units involves installation of new radar warning receiver, missile approach warning receivers, jammers to track multiple threats simultaneously, counter measure dispensing systems and escort jammers for jamming surveillance acquisition radars......

This is the first I am reading of MAWS and escort jammers. Very positive news if correct.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17809
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Dec 2017 04:16

This deal is worse than one thought.For a whopping $2.1B , just 41 aircraft were to be upgraded.That worked out to approx. $50M a pop! The entire upgrade of similar specs for the 67 ( one report says 69) MIG-29s was just under $1B, all completed.That works out to only approx. $14M per aircraft.
A new LCA costs only $25M, MIG-29 (Egyptian deal) approx.$30M and a new MIG-35 at approx.$40M.

Now when you add another $900M to the $2.1B already paid to Dassault, it works out to $3B! That means each upgrade is costing us approx.$75M , the cost of a new MKI! This deal sealed during the UPA's time is simply scandalous.The GOI should have had an inquiry as to how such an expensive upgrade was approved.There is one pvt .Indian entity that has a tie-up with Dassault for the Rafale deal .

In an AIN report in 2015 it was said that the upgrade facilities at Blr. had yet to be set up ,out of 51 aircraft acquired 3 had crashed and that it would take...wait for it...12 years to complete the upgrades! This means just 3-4 / yr at HAL which means we'll have to wait until 2030 for the lot!!
Impossible to comprehend when ALL 69 MIG-29s have already been been upgraded at Ojhar.

Of this upgrade 6 were done in Russia,the remaining 63 at Ojhar and according to the officer in charge,"90%" local material used for the upgrade of spares, etc.The upgrade included a new Zhuk-M radar, avionics, BVR AAM's, A-to-A refuelling capability, plus the licence to build 120 RD-33 series 3 new engines. A max of 40 yrs. is supposed to be the new lifespan of the bird according to the report.

I also ckd. the cost of the RD-33-3 new engines.It is costing us $250M for 120 engines.So a new engine will cost us $2M and if not already included in the $900M total upgrade package will still make the upgrade cost of each aircraft only $16-17M when compared with the M2Ks $75M a pop!

These two aircraft could be considered in the same category, with the legacy 29 in IAF colours proving superior in air combat (AM Masand in Vayu) to the M2K every time.The stark contrast in the two upgrade programmes is incomprehensible from the cost and timeframe aspects.Imagine the future costs for the Rafale and it's future upgrades!

viveks
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 06:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 08 Dec 2017 04:49

Philip...your rants and inclination of russian platforms and condescending the french platforms ...are really starting to get me annoyed. Everyone here, who follows BRF knows your views already. No need to keep wasting thread space on that matter.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17809
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Dec 2017 04:55

[edited]
Last edited by ramana on 08 Dec 2017 05:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4109
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Dec 2017 05:48

Philip, edit your post right away. No place for that. You have been warned.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2017 05:54

viveks wrote:Philip...your rants and inclination of russian platforms and condescending the french platforms ...are really starting to get me annoyed. Everyone here, who follows BRF knows your views already. No need to keep wasting thread space on that matter.



viveks, Philip is saying the M2K upgrade works to be very costly compared to new buy LCA, Su-30MKI, and M29 upgrade .

Yes the M2K upgrade makes them much more capable aircraft.

That should have been your rebuttal.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19907
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Dec 2017 10:40

Philip , The Mirages still play the primary role of Airborne Deterrent till such time the Rafale takes over and that would be some time , hence the upgrade takes into account and some components added to it makes it that much costly.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17809
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Dec 2017 11:34

Tx for the reply.I was also wondering why the long upgrade time and had similar thoughts.However,with Rafales arriving within a few years and BMos MKIs available,one Raffy sqd. supposed to be meant for the SC,either of these two more capable aircraft would easily do the biz.12 years for upgrading just 40+ aircraft seems exceptionally long and at an absurd cost in the context of the new arrivals.

Ramana,understood,pl. make the other party understand too.

PS:Here's a report on the upgraded MIG-29SMTs in Syrian ops.Any idea of the differences between our upgraded 29s and these?

Russia’s upgraded MiG-29 fighter jets to test new aircraft armament in Syria
Military & Defense December 07,
More:
http://tass.com/defense/979702
Xcpt:
Over two months and a half of their operation, the MiG-29SMTs have carried out over 140 sorties, accomplishing the missions of destroying terrorists’ infrastructure. As the UAC chief designer said, MiG-29SMT aircraft "performed the combat assignments of hitting terrorists’ bases autonomously and also jointly with Su-34 and Su-35 planes." He added that MiG-29SMT had also accomplished missions to escort Tupolev Tu-22M3 strategic missile bombers.
"The MiG-29SMT has shown mobility and simplicity in operation while demonstrating high combat efficiency. The check of combat capabilities of the modernized MiG-29SMT frontline fighter has confirmed the workability of the regimes of using aircraft bombs, smart bombs and air-to-surface missiles with the accuracies complying with the technical specifications for the aviation complex and also surpassing them," the chief designer said.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5878
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 08 Dec 2017 12:32

Austin wrote:Philip , The Mirages still play the primary role of Airborne Deterrent till such time the Rafale takes over and that would be some time , hence the upgrade takes into account and some components added to it makes it that much costly.

Will this still apply once the AL Brahmos is inducted? Also what exactly stops us from making whatever modifications necessary to the Su-30 for the nuclear role? It is far more suited to the role range and payload wise than the M2k.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kashi » 08 Dec 2017 12:34

Philip, can you share any details and latest updates on tyhe status of Mig 29 UPGs for the Indian airforce?

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 08 Dec 2017 17:38

nachiket wrote:
Austin wrote:Philip , The Mirages still play the primary role of Airborne Deterrent till such time the Rafale takes over and that would be some time , hence the upgrade takes into account and some components added to it makes it that much costly.

Will this still apply once the AL Brahmos is inducted? Also what exactly stops us from making whatever modifications necessary to the Su-30 for the nuclear role? It is far more suited to the role range and payload wise than the M2k.

Aircraft delivered nuclear dumb bomb from close range has much lower chance of succeeding in the face of modern air defenses than launching it from far on missiles. Stand-off launch would be the preferred option. If for example nuclear warhead is fitted on a Brahmos then those 40 Su-30MKI capable of carrying that missile would be "nuclear-able". So there doesn't necessarily need to be something special that needs to be done on an aircraft from standoff delivery point of view. Special customizations may come in the form of nuclear warhead handling and arming safety feature along with tamper-proofing it. This would be more weapon-related than platform-related.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17809
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Dec 2017 20:28

Kashi all 67 or 69 depending upon which report one reads have been completed.The first 3 done in Ru, the remaining in India.120 RD-33-3 engines to be made locally also signed a few years ago.Will ck for any later info.As posted earlier, upgrades included Zhuk-M radars, new avionics, engines, weapons/missiles,and A-to-A refuelling capability, all for $900M+.120 engines for $250M.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2017 00:45

Regarding the M2K upgrade and the re-calibration contract, the HAL got paid to upgrade 47 M2Ks. We know that 2 M2ks crashed after contract signed.


One two-seat trainer crashed on 25 February 2012. Another two-seater crashed on 5 March 2012.[35]



As these are the trainer planes upgrades would have been to M2KTI.

So asking for $900M for the remaining planes is wrong.

They should absorb the $15M for Tooling and Test Equipment maintenance and re-calibration contract with the French and next time negotiate better.

So IAF is right in saying they already paid for it.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2017 00:51

nachiket wrote:
Austin wrote:Philip , The Mirages still play the primary role of Airborne Deterrent till such time the Rafale takes over and that would be some time , hence the upgrade takes into account and some components added to it makes it that much costly.

Will this still apply once the AL Brahmos is inducted? Also what exactly stops us from making whatever modifications necessary to the Su-30 for the nuclear role? It is far more suited to the role range and payload wise than the M2k.


All that was seen is the one Air Launched Brahmos demonstration flights and not like its in quantity production.
And the SU 30MKI nuke mods would be also in the future.

Meanwhile M2Ks already exist in the deterrent role.

Just to remind 5 tantra has the milk maid tale who tossed her head dreaming of future riches. No pot of milk.

This is the most beautiful tale that teaches the importance of tactical vs strategic. You need to win the tactical in order to win the strategic.

Deejay and Akshay will relate to this lesson.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14600
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Dec 2017 00:55

ramana wrote:
viveks wrote:Philip...your rants and inclination of russian platforms and condescending the french platforms ...are really starting to get me annoyed. Everyone here, who follows BRF knows your views already. No need to keep wasting thread space on that matter.



viveks, Philip is saying the M2K upgrade works to be very costly compared to new buy LCA, Su-30MKI, and M29 upgrade .

Yes the M2K upgrade makes them much more capable aircraft.

That should have been your rebuttal.


I'll take the Mirage 2000 upgrade over the MiG-29 anyday, because it comes with a wider range of proven capabilities.
The Mirage 2000-V Mk2 is a proven upgrade, and a Dash-9 version is in service with UAE. The basic avionics, weapons fit is mature and world class even at a time of EF's and Rafales. The aircraft in air to air is no slouch with passive BVR with Mica-IR. With an EW fit as stated above, its likely the best protected aircraft in the AF today.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2017 00:59

KaranM, You need both. Its not a choice. Can't junk such a large fleet. BTW they 69 planes are already completed.


In fact for the Mig29's I would also pursue the Kaveri -M88 path if it ever materializes.
That is a medium cost high benefit path.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14600
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Dec 2017 02:15

True, just saying the Mirage 2000 upgrade is likely to be more functional and mature. Not sure all 69 upgrades for the MiG29s are done?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 06:53

srai wrote:Aircraft delivered nuclear dumb bomb from close range has much lower chance of succeeding in the face of modern air defenses than launching it from far on missiles. Stand-off launch would be the preferred option.


Our nuclear deterrence doctrine promises pain and punishment. Civilian targets within range with few defences will be hit. Nuclear retaliation to a first strike is necessarily dirty. No kindness or sensitivity will be shown. Collateral damage is part of the plan and not attacking heavily defended targets.

Nukes are so charming and attractive because all "rules of war" are discarded.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 862
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shaun » 09 Dec 2017 07:23

Ruski sahab aka Philip , please share with us the technology that went in for Baaz upgrade , how those technology is superior to the upgrades that went in Vajra ?? Rather then posting some translated cyrillic scripts ,answering the above question will enlighten us and enrich this thread.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 09 Dec 2017 08:03

ramana wrote:KaranM, You need both. Its not a choice.

+1

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48085
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2017 08:15

shaun wrote:Ruski sahab aka Philip , please share with us the technology that went in for Baaz upgrade , how those technology is superior to the upgrades that went in Vajra ?? Rather then posting some translated cyrillic scripts ,answering the above question will enlighten us and enrich this thread.


From

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29



The MiG-29's good operational record prompted India to sign a deal with Russia in 2005—2006 to upgrade all of its MiG-29s for US$888 million. Under the deal, the Indian MiGs were modified to be capable of deploying the R-77RVV-AE (AA-12 'Adder') air-to-air missile. The missiles had been successfully tested in October 1998 and were integrated into IAF's MiG-29s. IAF has also awarded the MiG Corporation another US$900 million contract to upgrade all of its 69 operational MiG-29s. These upgrades will include a new avionics kit, with the N-109 radar being replaced by a Phazotron Zhuk-M radar. The aircraft is also being equipped to enhance beyond-visual-range combat ability and for air-to-air refuelling to increase endurance.[53] In 2007, Russia also gave India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) a licence to manufacture 120 RD-33 series 3 turbofan engines for the upgrade.[54] The upgrade will also include a new weapon control system, cockpit ergonomics, air-to-air missiles, high-accuracy air-to-ground missiles and "smart" aerial bombs. The first six MiG-29s will be upgraded in Russia while the remaining 63 MiGs will be upgraded at the HAL facility in India. India also awarded a multimillion-dollar contract to Israel Aircraft Industries to provide avionics and subsystems for the upgrade.[55]





The upgrades to Indian MiG-29s will be to the MiG-29UPG standard. This version is similar to the SMT variant but differs by having a foreign-made avionics suite.[61] The upgrade to latest MiG-29UPG standard is in process, which will include latest avionics, Zhuk-ME Radar, engine, weapon control systems, enhancing multirole capabilities by many-fold.[62][63] As of 2012, Indian UPG version is the most advanced MiG-29 variant.[64] The Director-General of MiG, Sergei Korotkov said, "The most advanced is the MiG-29UPG, implemented in India in collaboration with local industry".[64] RAC MiG has upgraded the first six MiG-29UPG fighters for India by October 2012.[65] The first three aircraft were delivered in December 2012, over two years behind schedule.[66]


viveks
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 06:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 09 Dec 2017 08:44

Here is my take on on employing AI in the scenario that I had described previously. I quote the words of the great actor sanjiv kumar in the movie Sholey.

"Woh badmash hain lekin bahadur hain.....bure hain lekin insaan hain...khatarnak hain...kyonki ladna jante hain"

No a single soul can beat this message.

I sometimes think that through their foundation...the spread so much of human values...that I think ....even if you get into the mind of militance who act against government ..there is a degree of decision tree which distinctive classifies them of their core value system.

Vivek K
BRFite
Posts: 1787
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 09 Dec 2017 09:10

So Ramana ji, if this is such a great upgrade, why doesn't IAF increase its Mig-29 inventory? What is the weakness of the aircraft that causes IAF to decide against the 29 and its derivative, the Mig 35?

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 862
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shaun » 09 Dec 2017 12:12

Ramana ji thanks for you effort but the question is directed to our resident Russophile as the wiki one you provided is more generic

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16221
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rahul M » 09 Dec 2017 16:04

shaun wrote:Ruski sahab aka Philip , please share with us the technology that went in for Baaz upgrade , how those technology is superior to the upgrades that went in Vajra ?? Rather then posting some translated cyrillic scripts ,answering the above question will enlighten us and enrich this thread.

I had a detailed article on this back in 2012.
http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2012/01/fu ... grade.html

note. not saying anything about the baaz vs vajra argument tho'. :wink:

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14600
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Dec 2017 03:39


Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14600
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Dec 2017 03:39

Mind you, on paper all upgrades sound cool. Its time which tells us what worked us and what didn't.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 07:49

Vivek K wrote:So Ramana ji, if this is such a great upgrade, why doesn't IAF increase its Mig-29 inventory? What is the weakness of the aircraft that causes IAF to decide against the 29 and its derivative, the Mig 35?


I think we need to move out of this rhetoric of Philip's alleged Russophilia in order to arrive at facts. If you leave Philip out it should be possible to discuss the MiG 29 without having to thumb a virtual nose at Philip and prove that he is what people want to describe him to be. Pulling him into an argument only creates an ego issue where facts cannot be brought in. I think admins need to check this nonsense. Let Philip state his views with or without biases and let others do the same without taking personal digs at each other.

1. MiG 29s were a panic purchase in reaction to Paki F-16s. There was even a proposal to set up a manufacturing line in India which was not carried through.
2. The quick subsequent induction of the Mirage 2000 itself tells a story of what the IAF felt was necessary. The Mirage was more reliable and multirole
3. The Mig 29s were undoubtedly very fast, powerful and agile and had BVRAAM capability but the engines were unreliable and towards the end of the 80s as the USSR broke up spares and maintenance became a headache
4. The Mig 29s did play a useful role in Kargil but IIRC - as escorts two flights of MiG 29s were needed to escort one flight of Mirage 2000s in the strike role because of range/endurance issues with the Mig 29. (Not sure of this)
5. All said and done we have about 60 MiG 29s amounting to 4 squadrons with airframe life left and we cannot simply discard them
6. Upgrades are normal for all aircraft and the Mig 29 is no exception. I don't know the details but I expect glass cockpit and better avionic and possible new weapons capability and some weight savings from newer avionic translating to better endurance (my guess)
7. The MiG 35 did not qualify high altitude trials IIRC . Its engines were the problem.

If the Navy buys MiG 29 it is not because of Philip, and of the Air Force is looking at a future without the MiG 29 it is not because of those who disagree with Philip. I cannot see why this is so difficult to understand and why admins are sitting pretty and letting this irrelevant mutual baiting go on unchecked. Just put Philip on your ignore list if he pisses you off. Discussing the Mig 29 does not require a discussion of a forum members' personal biases. It is extremely irritating to see this pointless blather on a forum that purports to be a top source of military and strategic knowledge

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 10 Dec 2017 15:43

^^^
When PAF got their F-16s, the IAF/India did a reactionary purchase (Soviets offered) of MiG-23s for bartered goods. This was followed in quick succession by Mirage-2000s in 1982/83. But it required FOREX which India had was limited. Then a few years later India got MiG-29s in 1986 for bananas/bartered goods. All of these purchases were because US gifted PAF with F-16s. That legacy lives on.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 987
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Dec 2017 16:07

Hakeem, Vajra came before Baaz. And Baaz thoroughly swatted vajra in DACT.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19907
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 10 Dec 2017 16:41

Shiv , this is from memory M2K purchase was a very expensive buy the most expensive buy during 80's when Indian Forex did not cross $ 1-2 billion max the cost of Mirage purchase itself was ~ $600 million IIRC , IG even came under criticism from IMF on that , the lic production of 150 M2K M2K languished for the same reason why Rafale did today we could not afford it.

Mig-23 was a stand by purchase by India before it could make up its mind what would be answer to F-16 which had BVR Sparrow , 23 had BVR too in sparrow class so it was stop gap , M2K was then under flight testing and 29 did not existed beyond rumours. So we could not have gone for either of those as immediate purchase.

SU gave Mig-29 like every thing from them either on barter or Rupee-Rouble exchange at generous rate of 1-2 % interest spread over 20-30 years ( that virtually came out to be free was something one ex Admiral told me based on MOF calculations ) , 60 Mig-29 purchase also had lic agreement clause but with Indian economic crisis in 91 and SU dissolvement too that didnt come up the rest is history

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19907
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 10 Dec 2017 16:45

shiv wrote:I think we need to move out of this rhetoric of Philip's alleged Russophilia in order to arrive at facts. If you leave Philip out it should be possible to discuss the MiG 29 without having to thumb a virtual nose at Philip and prove that he is what people want to describe him to be. Pulling him into an argument only creates an ego issue where facts cannot be brought in. I think admins need to check this nonsense. Let Philip state his views with or without biases and let others do the same without taking personal digs at each other.


+ 1 , its now to a point irritating and comical that every discussion on Russian equipment end up with something that has to do with Philip :rotfl:

Let poster complain and mods take care of it. Some poster deliberate provoke him and he falls for the trap and the whole discussion goes into tangent.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 10 Dec 2017 18:22

For receiving F16 from uncle - we ended up buying Mig 23, mirage 2000 and Mig 29 (to counter it). Leaving besides the merit and the necessity of these planes, one help of unlce to TSP costed us a lots of money....30 years down the line, uncle releases latest BVRAAM (that outclasses everything that we have) and we are spending billions in M2K and Rafael purchase...same story, same actors...Indeed strategic friendship. More importantly it shows how inadequate we are. Tomorrow northern neighbors have to give some stealth bird and God knows what we will do, there is no stealth bird available to import (PAKFA is not one, though advanced, and f-35 will not come unless we sign our sovirginity, to our most reliable uncle).
We need LCA in numbers to establish our aircraft industry. In time make 100% of it in house. Use that to make other planes. There are stories on the net that when F-117 or even B2 was being conceived, proven part from ww2 aircrafts were being used to rapidly PoC it. We can never do that, if for each part we have to wait for a foreign partner who may or may not deliver (2052 is in doldrums after being actively marketed, UCAV deal after signing stands to be cancelled - that too from a very close and reliable partner).

Arun.prabhu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 28 Aug 2016 19:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Arun.prabhu » 10 Dec 2017 18:49

Austin wrote:
shiv wrote:I think we need to move out of this rhetoric of Philip's alleged Russophilia in order to arrive at facts. If you leave Philip out it should be possible to discuss the MiG 29 without having to thumb a virtual nose at Philip and prove that he is what people want to describe him to be. Pulling him into an argument only creates an ego issue where facts cannot be brought in. I think admins need to check this nonsense. Let Philip state his views with or without biases and let others do the same without taking personal digs at each other.


+ 1 , its now to a point irritating and comical that every discussion on Russian equipment end up with something that has to do with Philip :rotfl:

Let poster complain and mods take care of it. Some poster deliberate provoke him and he falls for the trap and the whole discussion goes into tangent.


I find the whole anti-Russian fixation funny as heck. Russians produce good weapons. The quality is shitty because of the miracle of communist production and the residuals of it, but it is also fact that the Israelis used to use every piece of captured Russian equipment after a quality rebuild. The serviceability issues to do with Russian equipment has to do with bad inventory management, procurement and maintenance practices. As to the horrible reputation Russian weapons have on the battlefield, those were monkey systems and the armies that got whalloped were Arabs. Western trained Arab armies with western equipped TOE failed miserably against ISIS... horrible armies are a sine qua non of their culture.

It would be better to ignore our pet peeves and listen to what Mr. Philip has to say. It’s perfectu fine to disagree but to attack the messenger as I see happening here so often...

viveks
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 06:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 10 Dec 2017 19:07

Who said that rusi hatyar theek nahi hai. And my message here was not to attack anyone here. If I have done so then I must extend my apologies.

My main goal was to indicate a line of thinking that was talked about by our former defense minister. Chalo all said and done I bless the new reoriented discussion. These are good points.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33931
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2017 20:30

Thakur_B wrote:Hakeem, Vajra came before Baaz. And Baaz thoroughly swatted vajra in DACT.

AAh! Thanks for that titbit. I missed the 1980-1990 decade because I was living in the UK and I saw the whole country burn up day after day on BBC, only to hear that the country was alive and well on All India Radio Overseas shortwave service


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests