Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Dec 2018 19:55

@ArjunPandit. I do not disagree with anything you say about the technical abilities of the F-18 Super Hornet Block III. Great plane, with an excellent radar --> the APG-79 AESA radar.

On the political aspect, here is the worry. A lot of our equipment is still Russian and while a CAATSA waiver was likely (till Secretary of Defense James Mattis' resignation last week), that is now up in the air. There is no guarantee that the incoming Acting Secretary of Defence Patrick Shanahan will see India in the same light as General Mattis did. And the CAATSA waiver is just for the S-400 purchase. But let us assume that the CAATSA waiver is still in effect for the S-400. US policy makers have however said that repeated waivers will be tough and there are a lot more Russian hardware coming in the pipeline in the future. Here are just three examples;

1) Follow on Akula lease, when INS Chakra-II (ex-Nerpa) returns to the Russian Navy in 2022.
2) The recent order for four Admiral Grigorovich Class frigates, to add on to the six current Talwar Class frigates.
3) The Indian Army's FRCV (Future Ready Combat Vehicle) competition in which the T-14 Armata is a shoe-in. The other competitors in the contest are only there for show and to remove any semblance of favoritism.

Now the CAATSA law clearly states that nations must show reduced dependence on Russian hardware in order to get a waiver. How is that possible in the light of above? Please see below...

CAATSA Sections 231 and 235
https://www.state.gov/t/isn/caatsa/275115.htm

Section 231, Part C
(c) DELAY OF IMPOSITION OF SANCTIONS.—The President may delay the imposition of sanctions under subsection (a) with respect to a person if the President certifies to the appropriate congressional committees, not less frequently than every 180 days while the delay is in effect, that the person is substantially reducing the number of significant transactions described in subsection (a) in which that person engages.


Read the whole link when you have time. The hypocrisy and bellicosity of the language in the above US law is eye opening. It is for that reason that the Indian Govt has repeatedly said that we only recognize laws of the United Nations and not the laws of a foreign nation.

In light of all this, it is best to do a follow on order of 2 - 4 more Rafale squadrons and launch a competition for a 5th generation platform, till our own AMCA comes on board in the 2030s. I am not advocating alienating the US from the Indian defence market, but the tip of your spear should not be subject to the political whims and fancies of a foreign nation. One thing to get C-17s, C-130s, AH-64s, CH-47s, P-8Is and MH-60Rs. The F-16 and F-18 are a whole different ballgame.

The most important tie up with an American fighter plane was the JETJWG (Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group). Now with that gone, what is the incentive really? No nation will give you their crown jewels on engine technology.

2+2 should finally yield 4
https://blogs.economictimes.indiatimes. ... y-yield-4/

At its last meeting in July, DTTI’s jet engine working group was shut down for lack of progress. They chose to call it a “strategic pause”. Apparently, the divergence between what India wanted and what the US and General Electric were willing to offer was too wide. It’s obvious that GE will not part with its crown jewel having spent billions in R&D. As someone said, “it’s the one thing the company has”. GE executives saw it as a compromise of their intellectual property to even suggest improvements in an indigenous Indian engine (Kaveri). Differences also emerged because the US wanted a measure of where India was in terms of indigenous engine technology. India was not keen on open access and benchmarking.


Also see this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2234699&hilit=JETJWG#p2234699

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Haridas » 24 Dec 2018 23:44

The only 3rd country would be India.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... -why-39692

Key point: Taiwan will also retire its ageing Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft due to high maintenance costs and to make room in the budget for new F-16s. Of the sixty fighters France sold Taiwan in the 1990s, fifty-six remain operational. “We would like to resale the Mirage fighters to a third country,” said one source.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 25 Dec 2018 00:45

Rakesh wrote:nam, to answer your question....the Jaguar, MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 represents around 12 squadrons. The Tejas Mk2 - as per current acquisition plans - will be acquired in around 201 aircraft or 10 squadrons.

Apart from the above, the IAF will have around approximately 14 squadrons of Su-30MKIs + 2 Rafale squadrons + 6 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1As. That brings it up to 32 squadrons. There is a gap of 10 squadrons and it is this gap that MMRCA 2.0 is trying to fill. Despite that, at 110 MMRCA aircraft, you are looking at only six additional squadrons. So still a short gap of 4 squadrons to reach 42.

But, 42 is a number that the IAF will likely never achieve due to retirements quicker than inductions. But as I have said before, 42 represents nothing if the capability of that 42 does not meet the requirements of the IAF. Would reopening the MiG-21 line allow the IAF to achieve 42 fairly quickly? Probably yes, assuming the tooling, jigs and raw materials are still around. But would that allow the IAF to achieve air dominance in the future? Definitely not. So it is not just about numbers, it is about capability as well.

Regardless, numbers of the Mk1A and Mk2 will have to be increased if the IAF wants to achieve 42. But if they want to stick to current acquisition plans for the Tejas, then perhaps the IAF will want to launch a new competition for a 5th gen fighter at some point in the future and make up the gap for 42 via that.


Which begs the question, where will AMCA sit? or FGFA?

If LCA (33-37) has to give way for AMCA, that will 5 sqd. IAF is not going to induct only 5 sqd of the only true LO figher in it's inventory, specially in 2030s. It would want more.

Neither SU30, Rafale or existing LCA will be replaced. So which one will it be replacing.

Just taking the existing prod runs, assuming in 5 years, when MMRCA 2.0 will start coming: 50 LCA+ 36 Rafa= 86 with LCA potentially been produced at 24 per year.

Extend that to 10 years, when MMRCA 2.0 could be done

(10x5) 50 LCA + (24x5) 120 LCA + 36 Rafale = 10.5 sqd + 5 MMRCA 2.0 = 15.5 sqd


The numbers get even better, if we hit the LCA 24 per year target sooner. Within 10 yrs we are not going to offload Mirage or Mig 29, yet we may have 10 sqd (with MMRCA 2.0) available..

Which begs the question. what is MMRCA 2.0 adding to the sqd number!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Dec 2018 07:04

nam wrote:Which begs the question, where will AMCA sit? or FGFA?
Which begs the question. what is MMRCA 2.0 adding to the sqd number!

That is the penultimate question Saar :)

Do you see AMCA or FGFA coming anytime before the end of the next decade? I cannot see how either of them will be joining the IAF anytime prior to that. AMCA is not even in prototype stage. First flight will likely be towards the late 2020s and induction by mid 2030s. And while PAK-FA may be flying, she has got a long development schedule ahead of her. The IAF is not pleased with PAK-FA in its current form. And FGFA will come, only when PAK-FA has been proven. So both those platforms are going to take time.

The 2020s will see all the MiG-21 Bison squadrons and the last two MiG-27UPG squadrons retire. Two out of the six Jaguar squadrons will retire as well. That is a retirement of around 10 - 12 squadrons in the next decade. That gap has to be made up somehow in the absence of AMCA and FGFA. Because otherwise, this is how the IAF will look in 2025.

MiG-29UPG: 3 Squadrons
Mirage 2000I/TI: 3 Squadrons
Jaguar Darin III: 4 Squadrons
Su-30MKI: ~ 14 Squadrons
Rafale F3R: 2 Squadrons
Tejas Mk1: 2 Squadrons
Tejas Mk1A: 4 Squadrons

The above comes to 32 squadrons, 10 below the IAF's own stated requirement of 42 squadrons. And in 2025, neither will PAK-FA (FGFA) or AMCA be anywhere close to ready. And as per Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa himself, the Tejas Mk2 will commence induction only in 2027. And this is where the gap of MMRCA 2.0 has to fill with 110 aircraft or six squadrons, which will bring the strength up to a respectable (numbers wise) 38 squadrons. Capability wise though, the IAF will be a force to reckon with.

Now come mid-2030s, the Mirage 2000I/TI, the MiG-29UPG and the Jaguar Darin III will all be retired as well. The Tejas Mk2 is planned to replace them all. So fast forward to 2035 and the IAF force structure will probably look like this.

Su-30MKI: ~ 14 Squadrons (heavy fighter)
Rafale F3R: 2 Squadrons + 6 MMRCA 2.0 squadrons (medium fighter)
Tejas Mk2: 10 Squadrons (medium fighter)
Tejas Mk1A: 4 Squadrons (light fighter)
Tejas Mk1: 2 Squadrons (light fighter)

With the above, the IAF will be at 38 squadrons. Now the argument can be made that why not just induct additional Tejas squadrons to make up the gap and scrap MMRCA 2.0? And that is a valid argument. But when the Planning Directorate at Air HQ envisions a future force structure, the capability of current aircraft, their upgrade potential and acquisitions of future platforms are regularly reviewed. Future acquisitions of a new type are studied to see how many platforms will be required in order to achieve the desired goals. Thus, will inducting an additional 110 Tejas Mk1As (over the current 83 Tejas Mk1As) be able to achieve the desired goals of the IAF?

Now the IAF has gone through a remarkable turnaround on the Tejas. From calling it a three legged cheetah to now being an eagerly awaited after platform, the Tejas has got a bright future in the IAF. However, the IAF will not send a Tejas Mk1A on a long endurance mission deep into enemy territory because the aircraft just does not have the endurance for it. For that you need an aircraft like the Rambha. And in the same vein, the IAF will not send Katrina to strafe an enemy armoured column, when a Tejas can do the same job for way cheaper. And thus a medium multirole fighter is needed, especially in the recon and intelligence gathering role. And the Rafale is a class act in that sphere.

nam wrote:If LCA (33-37) has to give way for AMCA, that will 5 sqd. IAF is not going to induct only 5 sqd of the only true LO figher in it's inventory, specially in 2030s. It would want more.

The number of VLO platforms that the IAF is looking to induct is very much in its nascent stages. There is a lot of focus right now on the Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2 platforms. Then there is the Rafale induction. Then there is the Super Sukhoi upgrade. Then there is the Darin III upgrade for the Jaguar. Inducting VLO platforms - while important - is not the greatest priority right now for the IAF. And neither is the PLAAF's J-20 giving IAF commanders sleepless nights. Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa himself stated that the IAF is able to detect the J-20 from quite a distance and thus negating any of her stealth advantages.

And that 42 number will change over time. That number is not set in stone. The considerable intelligence gathered to date has confirmed that the Chinese bark is worse than their bite. PLAAF aircraft operate in a limited capacity from high altitude airbases in Tibet. To fly with a meaningful payload will have to result in them taking from from airbases from further inland. Not a very ideal situation for the PLAAF. In the IOR, the IN is a match for the PLAN. Not my words, that is Admiral Lanba himself who said that. The situation for the PLA is no different either.

And the Chinese know this well. It is for this reason that they are doing CPEC with Pakistan. The end goal will be to station a significant Chinese strike (land and air) force within Pakistan on the pretext of protecting Chinese investment. A two front war for India is very real, but the enemy on both fronts will be the Chinese onlee.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 25 Dec 2018 19:28

Rakesh wrote:
Now come mid-2030s, the Mirage 2000I/TI, the MiG-29UPG and the Jaguar Darin III will all be retired as well. The Tejas Mk2 is planned to replace them all. So fast forward to 2035 and the IAF force structure will probably look like this.

Su-30MKI: ~ 14 Squadrons (heavy fighter)
Rafale F3R: 2 Squadrons + 6 MMRCA 2.0 squadrons (medium fighter)
Tejas Mk2: 10 Squadrons (medium fighter)
Tejas Mk1A: 4 Squadrons (light fighter)
Tejas Mk1: 2 Squadrons (light fighter)



These numbers tell us the story. If IAF goes for 2 more Su-30 sqd, 2 more Rafale, 2 LCA, instead of MMRCA 2, it will get those sqd much faster than MMRCA 2.0,cheaper and frankly no loss of capability!

For Rafale order 1 more and then after a while order one more direct buy, using some excuse. HAL can be kept happy with Su30 + LCA.

The solution seem so obvious that I have started to believe MMRCA 2 is set up to manage MoD IAF politics.

It must have been floated to buy in IAF for LCA. In two years LCA MK1A would in production. MK2 in prototype phase, funding for AMCA.

MoD would turn around and say, look no money for 6 TFTA sqd. You can have 2 more Rafale, which IAF wanted anyways.

Also if AMCA is to be inducted on top of this, then we are looking at more than 42 sqd.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 25 Dec 2018 20:25

Singha wrote:18 of the 222 c17 in usaf are in the reserve.
if there are any funding cuts in transport command usually more of active duty planes are pushed into reserve.
we could keep a watch and dart in then to buy a few of such 'surplus airframes' ... a few kit like radios may need changing , rest is same.
...

Qatar has 8 of them - the most viable source IMO. It is unlikely US will part with any of their 'reserves', they are in quite heavy demand as per what I have read.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 25 Dec 2018 21:33

USAF in its most latest forward looking vision document has identified a need to grow its airlift capacity by 1 squadron by 2030 and specifically mentioned the C-17 as the sort of capability it needed. Given it is not in production and they aren't going to get it back into production it does mean that the ones they have would be expected to serve longer so aren't likely to be sold anytime soon.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2018 23:33

nam wrote:These numbers tell us the story. If IAF goes for 2 more Su-30 sqd, 2 more Rafale, 2 LCA, instead of MMRCA 2, it will get those sqd much faster than MMRCA 2.0,cheaper and frankly no loss of capability!

For Rafale order 1 more and then after a while order one more direct buy, using some excuse. HAL can be kept happy with Su30 + LCA.

The solution seem so obvious that I have started to believe MMRCA 2 is set up to manage MoD IAF politics.

It must have been floated to buy in IAF for LCA. In two years LCA MK1A would in production. MK2 in prototype phase, funding for AMCA.

MoD would turn around and say, look no money for 6 TFTA sqd. You can have 2 more Rafale, which IAF wanted anyways.

Also if AMCA is to be inducted on top of this, then we are looking at more than 42 sqd.

That is the key word Sir - *I-F*

There was an article earlier this year that the IAF was looking at two additional Su-30MKI squadrons and a decision was to be made by the end of 2018. Today is Dec 27th :) Two additional Su-30MKI squadrons and two additional Tejas Mk1A squadrons would be an ideal welcome. Retire the MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons that much sooner.

Additional Rafale squadrons (2 - 4 is the sweet spot) would be cheaper, as you have mentioned. But strange are the workings of the Ministry of Defence. I would hate to see a repetition of the 80s where the IAF bought 40 Mirage 2000s with a proposal to license manufacture another 110, only to be cancelled in favour of the MiG-29.

We just bought 36 Rafales. Logic states that follow on Rafales would be the best bet, especially since both Hasimara and Ambala can house one additional Rafale squadron each. But the MoD is known to do illogical u-turns and may make another ad-hoc purchase.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gyan » 28 Dec 2018 12:01

Purchasing the Jaguar may have been operational necessity but ending Marut programme was criminal.

Navy has shown vision in this aspect by continuing with all indigenous programs. IAF & Army go out of their way to end indigenous programs whenever import is possible (even for small things like Carl Gustaf RCL)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gyan » 28 Dec 2018 12:08

Rakesh wrote:
nam wrote:These numbers tell us the story. If IAF goes for 2 more Su-30 sqd, 2 more Rafale, 2 LCA, instead of MMRCA 2, it will get those sqd much faster than MMRCA 2.0,cheaper and frankly no loss of capability!

For Rafale order 1 more and then after a while order one more direct buy, using some excuse. HAL can be kept happy with Su30 + LCA.

The solution seem so obvious that I have started to believe MMRCA 2 is set up to manage MoD IAF politics.

It must have been floated to buy in IAF for LCA. In two years LCA MK1A would in production. MK2 in prototype phase, funding for AMCA.

MoD would turn around and say, look no money for 6 TFTA sqd. You can have 2 more Rafale, which IAF wanted anyways.

Also if AMCA is to be inducted on top of this, then we are looking at more than 42 sqd.

That is the key word Sir - *I-F*

There was an article earlier this year that the IAF was looking at two additional Su-30MKI squadrons and a decision was to be made by the end of 2018. Today is Dec 27th :) Two additional Su-30MKI squadrons and two additional Tejas Mk1A squadrons would be an ideal welcome. Retire the MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons that much sooner.

Additional Rafale squadrons (2 - 4 is the sweet spot) would be cheaper, as you have mentioned. But strange are the workings of the Ministry of Defence. I would hate to see a repetition of the 80s where the IAF bought 40 Mirage 2000s with a proposal to license manufacture another 110, only to be cancelled in favour of the MiG-29.

We just bought 36 Rafales. Logic states that follow on Rafales would be the best bet, especially since both Hasimara and Ambala can house one additional Rafale squadron each. But the MoD is known to do illogical u-turns and may make another ad-hoc purchase.


I think India intended to manufacture not only Mirage 2000 but also Mirage 4000 but Bofors scandal did us in.

The plan may have been to manufacture both Mirage 2000 and MIG 29. Note that we had 3 lines MIG 21, MIG 27 & Jags.

So perhaps Mirage 2000 followed by LCA

MIG 29 followed by MCA

Jaguar followed by Mirage 4000

Day Dreaming?

But still we have:-

LCA, LCA MKIA, LCA MKII, murmers of LCA MKIII
NLCA, NLCA MKII
Two seater LCA, NLCA versions
AMCA, Naval AMCA
AURA

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 28 Dec 2018 16:02

Gyan wrote:Purchasing the Jaguar may have been operational necessity but ending Marut programme was criminal.

Navy has shown vision in this aspect by continuing with all indigenous programs. IAF & Army go out of their way to end indigenous programs whenever import is possible (even for small things like Carl Gustaf RCL)


There are lot of forces in the country, who want to keep the gravy training going. It is not the technology which is difficult, it is the control of the funding pipe. You squeeze/delay the funds for DRDO programs, you can keep the import gravy going.

Take LCA. My personal opinion is that we are today close to LCA FOC, not because we did well with tech, but the powers to be did not think we will go further.. this includes IAF. IAF let the LCA show on, as long as it was promised the MRCA. Same with HAL. No development headaches & failures, just "TOT" and keep the job going.

The requirement for MK1A tells me, how IAF tried to wiggle out of LCA. There was no need to stop the FOC at 20. HAL could have been funded 24/year and asked to keep producing until MK1A development is done. There is no confirmation of additional lines, nor order of MK1A.

Instead IAF put in a bump in the production run and hoping that it is delayed enough for the MRCA 2 to kick in..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Shrinivasan » 30 Dec 2018 13:16

There has been multiple news on IAF getting Jaguars for free or low price from France, UK and Oman... did we get any planes like this or have they just been some fan boy dreams...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 30 Dec 2018 15:53

Shrinivasan wrote:There has been multiple news on IAF getting Jaguars for free or low price from France, UK and Oman... did we get any planes like this or have they just been some fan boy dreams...


Distinctly remember reading somewhere that spare airframes were got for cannibalization. The retired aircraft from other fleet were not considered flight worthy.

Jane's

If I remember correctly, only RAFO was still flying them as late as 2013. But they were pretty beat-up. Scooterwala source is before the others got involved in Yemen, RAFO was extensively using them in Yea Men, bombing the shit out of someone. Don't think they would have much life left in them.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 30 Dec 2018 15:54

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:There has been multiple news on IAF getting Jaguars for free or low price from France, UK and Oman... did we get any planes like this or have they just been some fan boy dreams...


Distinctly remember reading somewhere that spare airframes were got for cannibalization. The retired aircraft from other fleet were not considered flight worthy.

Jane's

If I remember correctly, only RAFO was still flying them as late as 2013. But they were pretty beat-up. Scooterwala source is before the others got involved in Yemen, RAFO was extensively using them in Yea Men, bombing the shit out of someone. Don't think they would have much life left in them.


In fact, OM hadretired them in 2014.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 30 Dec 2018 17:41


For once, its heartening to read the ToI comments even the most of aam junta has figured that no body else is going to hand us over critical tech.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Dec 2018 23:13

Reading the signals: India has a new military strategy against China
https://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis ... DVbIM.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 31 Dec 2018 04:49

Famous old saying.Amateurs talk tactics, professionals logistics.The increasing logistic capability of the IAF/IA for Himalayan warfare esp. on the Chinese front is helping to boost our fighting capability in this inhospitable terrain.The ability to transport light arty., AFVs, and air defence and tactical missiles is essential to counter the Chinese in Tibet. However, more heavy lift helos are required.We have v.few MI-26s serviceable and should get another batch of the new upgraded MI-26Ts.These have a hold equiv. to an AN-12 and can carry heavy eqpt. essential for the BRO tasked with the most difficult job of building our infrastructure.There are a goodly no. of med. helos, MI-17Vs in service and in time to come our desi MH will also be available. We also need more C-130Js which can land on the smaller airstrips being operationalised.

One intriguing possibility is Boeing's V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor bird.It has a stated 25000 alt. capability, but obviously much less when fully loaded and in a VTOL mode at high alt.It would require testing loaded at high alt. in all modes our conditions.The ability to land vertically on small landing grounds/ airstrips is why we should at least examine the option.Meant for use aboard US carriers, the IN shoild also take a look at it.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Shrinivasan » 31 Dec 2018 09:09

A new variant of Osprey is getting inducted, a new squadron got stood up recently...named V-280 Valor

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 01 Jan 2019 05:14

https://twitter.com/proshillong/status/ ... 9007975425 ---> A rare sight of Do-228 Dorniers and HS 748 Avros of No 59 Hornbills Squadron, IAF of the Eastern Air Command at Guwahati. They are lined up for simultaneous take off for landing at ALGs of NE Region. No 59 Squadron planned this mission to commemorate 59 years of raising.

Image

https://twitter.com/proshillong/status/ ... 6885462017 ---> 4 Do-228 Dorniers and 3 HS 748 Avros of No 59 Squadron led by Group Captain R Vijavdev taxied out together and landed at Misamari first time. Later they proceeded for simultaneous landing at ALGs of Tuting, Menchuka, Pasighat, Ziro, Barapani and Tezu.

Image

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/proshillong/status/ ... 9744200706 ---> In a first, all women crew of No 59 Squadron landed first time at Tezu ALG in Arunachal Pradesh. Hornbills are based at Guwahati and operate both Do-228 Dornier and HS 748 Avro aircraft.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Jan 2019 23:29

Indian Air Force : Combat aircraft
Type : Active + Ordered
Jaguar M/S : 130
MiG-21 : 244
MiG-27 : 84
MiG-29 : 66
Mirage 2000H/I : 45
Rafale B/C : 36
Su-30MKI : 198 + 53
T-50 (Sukhoi) : 144*
Tejas LCA : 4 + 116

Pakistan Air Force : Combat aircraft
Type : Active + Ordered
F-7 : 136
F-16A/C : 45
JF-17 :70+28+50*
Mirage IIIEP/OF/RP : 69
Mirage 5EF/F/PA: 90

Source: Flight International 2018 by FlightGlobal.
https://www.flightglobal.com/asset/21905/waf/

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2019 00:00

Some numbers on both sides look highly inflated

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 00:21

Highly inflated is absolutely correct.

While there are six squadrons of Jaguars, I do not believe the strength is at 130 aircraft. The fifth and sixth squadrons are under strength squadrons. No 6 Dragons is a Jaguar IM squadron and HAL made only 10 - 12 variants of the IM at max. The sixth squadron consists of Jaguar IBs (twin seaters) and is also at understrength. The other four squadrons are Jaguar IS, with two units at Ambala and two at Gorakhpur.

The MiG-21s are also off as well. Only the bis and Bison are left. The FL, M, MF are all retired. There should be around 8 - 10 squadrons max, so around 160 - 180 MiG-21s in all and even that number is a high estimate.

And there is no longer four MiG-27 squadrons, just two left of the MiG-27UPG variety based somewhere in the Eastern Air Command. Two MiG-27ML squadrons were retired in 2017. Maintenance Hogs!

The MiG-29 strength is not at 66 aircraft and is more in the early to mid 50s and are divided between three squadrons - No 28 First Supersonics, No 47 Black Archers and No 223 Tridents.

The Mirage 2000 strength is divided between three squadrons - two at full strength (No 1 Tigers and No 7 Battle Axes) and one at half strength (No 9 Wolfpacks). Number of aircraft is somewhere around 49 aircraft.

The Su-30MKI strength (incl new builds) will be at 265 aircraft. 198 + 53 = 251 aircraft is wrong and is waaay off! 272 aircraft will be acquired in total and there have been 8 hull losses to date, so 265 left.

There is no PAK-FA coming and from where are they getting 144 aircraft? I meant that sarcastically by the way. I know where they are getting that number from.

The Tejas numbers are wrong, but only by three aircraft (116 + 4 = 120), but its 40 Mk1s + 83 Mk1As = 123 aircraft.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2019 02:41

Rakesh can you contact Rupak or you* yourself write an article to refute Verappa Moily attack on serving IAF chief?
Reason is attacking a serving officer is below the belt and needs to be refuted.
Moily cannot take refuge as a political statement.

* I thought you have a degree in Communications?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 05:22

Let me ask Rupak. Karan M is also very well versed in the subject. Will get back to you on this soon.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 06:40

Final C-17 Heavy Jet Joins Indian Air Force In Q3 2019
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/12 ... -2019.html

Coming as the contract did months before India and the U.S. signed the foundational Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), the last C-17, like the ten before it, will come without specific pieces of encrypted communication equipment, including the SINGCARS radio system, TACTERM secure voice terminal, and a handful of other pieces of kit. Theoretically, with COMCASA now signed, the Indian government could now choose to retrofit said equipment onto its American platforms should it choose to do so. Livefist can confirm that this remains a possibility on the IAF’s C-130Js and, especially its AH-64E Apache and CH-47F Chinook fleets that begin arriving three months from now. The Indian C-17s plug into the U.S. Air Force’s Globemaster III Integrated Sustainment Program (GISP) for infrastructure on the move.


A senior Indian Air Force officer at the service headquarters in Delhi told Livefist, “It’s a pity we couldn’t contract for more of these jets. They’ve been in service for five years, and we’ve slowly learnt their true worth. There were hiccups initially, since there were times when the fleet would be engaged quite uneconomically. But that has completely changed now. The logistical flight matrix is still being evolved, but the C-17 has pride of place in the scheme of things. We could have definitely done with more aircraft — at least another squadron.”

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2019 06:48

ashishvikas wrote:Indian Air Force : Combat aircraft
Type : Active + Ordered
Jaguar M/S : 130
MiG-21 : 244
MiG-27 : 84
MiG-29 : 66
Mirage 2000H/I : 45
Rafale B/C : 36
Su-30MKI : 198 + 53
T-50 (Sukhoi) : 144*
Tejas LCA : 4 + 116

Pakistan Air Force : Combat aircraft
Type : Active + Ordered
F-7 : 136
F-16A/C : 45
JF-17 :70+28+50*
Mirage IIIEP/OF/RP : 69
Mirage 5EF/F/PA: 90

Source: Flight International 2018 by FlightGlobal.
https://www.flightglobal.com/asset/21905/waf/

This is BS JF 17 has replaced all F7 aircraft except the F7 pg around ~30 left. The JF 17 2 seat squadron replaying the 2 seat F 7. Mirage 3/5 not more than 50 are active. As of today JF 17 and F16 are now the main fighters of the PAF. Or the info is dated, since we dont have more than 115 Mig 21 Bison's+ 15 Mig 21 Trainers in service, and around 45 upgraded Mig 27's after crashes, Jag also after crashes are about 115 in number.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2019 22:01

a few days before the hornbills mass swarm flight to ALGs happened, i took off from GAU airport and was startled to see one end of the military side taxiway taken over by a large troop of signals type trucks parked in lines with long mast antennas pointing up and lot of generator trailers. the trucks were in brown-green jungle camo.

maybe some signals exercise was also done in parallel with the mass logistics drop to exercise that aspect of the supply chain.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2019 22:21

The numbers could include active squadron plus reserves and probably even number plated aircraft/squadrons

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jan 2019 03:17

ramana wrote:Rakesh can you contact Rupak or you* yourself write an article to refute Verappa Moily attack on serving IAF chief?
Reason is attacking a serving officer is below the belt and needs to be refuted.
Moily cannot take refuge as a political statement.

Will email you soon on this.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 04 Jan 2019 04:25

Singha wrote:
maybe some signals exercise was also done in parallel with the mass logistics drop to exercise that aspect of the supply chain.


Or to monitor any Chinese radar activity. If the Chinese had gone wind of the exercise, there would be radar signal floating around..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2019 23:08

40 Indian Air Force officers share crucial info on WhatsApp
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/ ... tsapp.html

Forty Indian Air Force officers serving at the training station in Hyderabad reportedly broke security rules by carrying smart phones in restricted areas and were found exchanging official service-related information on WhatsApp. This was revealed when their smart phones were confiscated. Several such incidents were reported in 2018. The number of violations would be higher if cases across all stations are considered. The IAF has banned smartphones inside Air Force training centres as they interrupt the Frequency Modulation Receiver. The HQ in Bengaluru pulled up the officers and punished them.

The HQ Air Force Station issued a warning to its personnel: ‘On October 9, 2015 and September 12, 2016, an advisory was issued banning usage of smart phones in office/technical/training area. Despite timely instructions by the Air HQ, smart phones usage is prevalent. Despite clear direction adopted to arrest this trend, around 40 cases of violation of smart phone usage into AF NET PCs have been caught and found that official letters/signals being shared on WhatsApp etc.’ The HQ directed the station security officer to examine the confiscated mobiles and check for any service related information or breach of security. Hakimpet and Dundigal are the premier training grounds for the Indian Air Force. The two stations train cadets on Stage 1 and 2 aircraft and helicopters, before they are sent to Bidar.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2019 23:11

Somebody record this and put on youtube please :)

VIDEO ---> https://twitter.com/NatGeoIndia/status/ ... 3560551424 ---> For them, the sky is just the beginning. Get ready to go beyond the horizon with our air warriors. Tune in to Extreme Flight: Indian Air Force, premiering 25th January at 9 PM on National Geographic and 10 PM on Hotstar.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2019 00:48

Saksham Bharat: MiG-29 Upgrade



Drag & Drop this picture into a new browser video and click on the zoom feature to see the image in full. A good read.

Also go here for some visual treats on the MiG-29UPG ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6252&p=2314228#p2314228

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2019 00:59

I have posted both these photos before, but reposting to add to the info above...

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 6999104512 ---> It has a ELT-568 Advanced Jamming Pod , which is basically a dual-band self and mutual protection equipment designed to cope with today’s complex threat scenarios. It has a wide frequency coverage from E-J band and has a very high ERP to optimize jamming effectiveness.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 1583883264 ---> It has a Navigation light , which is a colored source of illumination on aircrafts along with ESM/RWR. Other than this it has ANS -VOR/ILS units developed indigenously by HAL.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9119007744 ---> Then there are Static dischargers to allow the continuous satisfactory operation of onboard navigation and radio communication systems during precipitation (p-static) conditions. We can also see Drogue parachute and ventral speed brakes between the engine nozzles.

Image

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 4522052609 ---> Indian Air Force MiG-29UPG has 20SPM-01 chaff and flare dispenser control system and BVP-80-26DK (2 each) chaff and flare dispensers. Chaff and flares are defensive mechanisms to defend against enemy attacks effectively.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2019 12:04

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1084294457166565376

AF team from thoise returning from chadar trek rescues man who fell through thin ice.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2019 04:29

Amidst Spat, Elevated Chance Of IAF Su-30 Order To HAL
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... o-hal.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jan 2019 05:00

^^^ Assuming 40 more Su-30MKIs are confirmed and - as per the above article - the production line will continue for three more years. I believe the current Rambha production is due to end in 2020 or 2021 (?). So fast forward another three more years and we are around the 2024/2025 time frame.

Squadron Strength in 2025

Su-30MKI: around 15 Sqns ---> 312 aircraft (with 7 hull losses to date) for a total of 308 aircraft.
Jaguar Darin III: 5 Sqns ---> 4 Jaguar IS/IB squadrons + 1 Jaguar IM unit or around 80+ aircraft
Mirage 2000I/TI: 3 Sqns ---> around 49 aircraft + possibly 2 more birds from France
MiG-29UPG: 3 Sqns ---> around 54 aircraft
Rafale F3R: 2 Sqns ---> 36 aircraft
Tejas Mk1: 2 Sqns ---> 40 aircraft
Tejas Mk1A: 4 Sqns ---> 83 aircraft

The above comes to 34 squadrons. The MiG-21 Bison and MiG-27UPG squadrons will all be retired by then. Now if the GOI can order two more Tejas Mk1/Mk1A squadrons + 2 more Rafale squadrons, that number jumps up to 38 squadrons.

Why do you need MMRCA 2.0? :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shaun » 18 Jan 2019 09:04

In the above picture shared on mig29 upgrade , there seems to be 62 baaz including trainers , have we lost 8 in between one decade ??

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nishn » 18 Jan 2019 09:29

What about the possibility of Mig-29k transfers to a ground based operation in the next few years due to the issues and the displaced fleet be filled by Raffales or 18's for IN.


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