Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Feb 2019 12:26

Indranil wrote:Sachin Sir,

The jaguars are specialist for three reasons:
1. It has phenomenal rough field performance.
2. It has exceptional low altitude/terrain hugging performance
3. It has very good endurance for an aircraft of its size.

Together with DARIN III upgrades, new engines and AESA radars, it probably is one of the best DPSAs in the world.

The reengining of Jaguars was a no brainer 10 years back. Thanks to our bean counters, an obvious deal was delayed and complicated to the point, that it has become economically unviable today. Honeywell doesn’t give a damn anymore. And the costs now for the residual life of the Jaguars, put big questionmarks on the reengining. But, one can ask the question, if we can get New radars and missiles for the Jags now, why not new engines?

The problem is nothing will move for another 5 years.

hence my modified question wheter it is still needed.
point 1 - rough field performance. - How much is that really relevant?
point 2 - while it may still be relevant today can the jag continue bei g effective without new engines.
point 3 - yes endurance is great but to what end. where are you going to use that endurance effectively?

While I love the jags I am starting to question some long held assumptions. I may entirely but please take this in the spirit of enquiry as it is intended.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Feb 2019 12:27

Als IR which othere dedicated DPSA aicraft is there?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2019 12:47

jaguar was meant to be a carrier borne fighter and a AJT, which the french pulled the idea and ran with the vaunted super etendard.
so it has a carrier rated undercarriage and perhaps can handle steeper glide slope to landing, very stable at low speed and lo alt etc etc - which naval fighters are supposed to do.
it was also designed to take off from grass airfields of europe in a WW3 scenario, something that we dont really have here, the nice euro grassy meadows of eng and france. in delivering CCIP munitions and low level navigation at night it was far superior to anything russian we had like Mig27 or Su7.

@1:47 there is takeoff from uneven grassy field...but good soft dense english grass, not our poor grass


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2019 12:50

ks_sachin wrote:Als IR which othere dedicated DPSA aicraft is there?


there is nothing else that can do what the jags do for us ie go out upto 400km radius with 2 drop tanks and a bombload at lo-lo-lo.
the Bison and Mig27 cannot even try that and lack the range and payload.
the M2K has the range and payload but like all deltas is not optimized for lo-lo-lo missing....and we have onlee 40.

the Tornado GR4 is like a bigger jaguar and with swing wing very fast @ high level. its said to be almost impossible to catch in ACM at low level once it gets going.

a luftwaffe tornado rips along in Canada



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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Feb 2019 13:01

No changes in Tejas jet design: IAF Chief
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 21917.html

No cut in force size

Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa ruled out cutting down on the size of his force.

“Some people suggest we need to reduce our manpower and put money in Capital Budget. There is no way we can cut our manpower to pay for our capital acquisitions,” he said.

Reeling out figures, he said the entire salary bill of the IAF is Rs 16,621 crore, while the capital expenditure is Rs 35,407 crore. “We need Rs 8,870 crore for fuel and maintenance,” he said

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Feb 2019 13:03

So if you cut the fuel and maintenance cost , IAF CAPEX is ~ 26,537 Cr around $ 4.5 billion

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 08 Feb 2019 13:10

I am sure those costs don't come under CapEx budget, since they are routine operational requirements. A specialist tool for maintenance may be a CapEx procedure but the budgeting for it would be under OpEx only. So the total CapEx would remain at 35407cr or approx 4.9 billion USD.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 08 Feb 2019 20:50

It seems in the absence of AugustaWestland VVIP chopper -- the head of state is flying in Mi-17 which is always accompanied by two sister ships


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Feb 2019 21:13

Yes 3 choppers likely from IAF VIP Squadron and notice the 3rd chopper has 2 external fuel tank something I never saw before on a Mi-17

The 2 other chopper might be decoys

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 08 Feb 2019 23:58

Austin wrote:Yes 3 choppers likely from IAF VIP Squadron and notice the 3rd chopper has 2 external fuel tank something I never saw before on a Mi-17

The 2 other chopper might be decoys


I think those 'external tanks' may actually be emergency flotation devices.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 09 Feb 2019 00:30

JTull wrote:
Austin wrote:Yes 3 choppers likely from IAF VIP Squadron and notice the 3rd chopper has 2 external fuel tank something I never saw before on a Mi-17

The 2 other chopper might be decoys


I think those 'external tanks' may actually be emergency flotation devices.



I thought likewise as I posted this video for a different rally at West Bengal ---



Someone commented --"These were external fuel tanks" --- The strange part is Modi did not ride in that Mi-17- which had it

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 09 Feb 2019 00:38

Another interesting aspect of head of the state's security detail with a mix of central govt. and state govt. owners... must be really a tough situation for most of the security details to "sanitize" the area given the size of crowd and location.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 09 Feb 2019 13:17

Image

http://indianairforce.nic.in/content/ex ... hakti-2019

Start Date:
Friday, February 8, 2019
End Date:
Monday, February 18, 2019

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 09 Feb 2019 15:32

Rakesh wrote:....

I understand your comments sir and they are more grounded and more realistic than mine. I mean you are actually giving me as it and what will happen.

I don't think you doubt my intention but if someone else does think so ... let me restate.

What spurred me to write what I did write was my need to unshackle HAL. We have used it to say Yes to everything planesy that happens in India with the GoI approval.

The Mirage-2000 crash whether completely or partially blamed at HAL will not solved by slicing and dicing HAL. I made HAL into what it is (if it is ineffecient) now only we can and must shape it to be a problem solver and an integrator sometimes instead of always a construction shop.

Now taking your realistic checks of my moves, I counter propose taking in your valuable additions.

Jags - Upgrade 3 Squadrons at the Single Vendor prices instead of 5 squadrons. I believe the vendor has mentioned that they can upgrade. If not I recommend giving this to someone like the Base Repair Depot instead of HAL. Cannabilise the remaining aircraft or carry them on as with non-upgraded engines.

Mirage -2K. Get more airframes from around the world. Still inch close to a 2 squadron force. Fine keep the upgrade in India with HAL.

Su-30 MKI- Get the attrition replacements. The IAF is building up the MKIs in number seen with the Mig-21s. There is a certain amount of future left in these machines.

anyway 2 cents here.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Feb 2019 01:36

Mr. Rahul Gandhi, is there any limit to your Insensitivity?
Do you realize the loss of families when a Pilot dies in an Air Crash?

https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/mr-r ... air-crash/

By Nidhi Bahuguna, 08 Feb 2019

In disbelief I heard Rahul Gandhi, the scion of the dynasty and projected PM candidate of the Congress, tell pilots that if the Rafale deal is cancelled then the 30,000 crores saved would be given to pilots when they die in an air crash. I am the wife of a naval aviator, who retired safely - and I am grateful to God that he is alive. Having lived the greater part of my married life in an airbase.

I have seen first-hand the devastation a crash causes to the family and friends, leave alone the service. Airplane and helicopter crashes were nearly annual events in our air base - no surprises since all the aircrafts and helicopters were way past their sanctioned life. The aircraft should have been phased out decades ago, but due to great policies of Rahul Gandhi’s family, they were given extensions over and over again. The budgets were sparse, maintenance was delayed, and spare parts were hard to come by - and when the much delayed refit to the country of origin (mainly Russia) was sanctioned, aircraft were stripped to the barest essentials. Hats off to the aviators who still completed all the tasks and remained battle ready with such constraints. But the way - past their prime aircraft took a toll – someday we would see a pall of dense smoke on the runway, suddenly hear a crash, the wail of a siren - and hearts would sink, as these signs were of an aircraft/helicopter crash. Someday, suddenly my Husband would rush off at night for a search and rescue of an aircraft which had not returned.

Does Rahul Gandhi even realize what happens when aviators die in a crash?

All aviators are young, in their 20s or 30s. They have young wives and very young children. Some leave behind pregnant wives. Most of the time, the day starts as routine, quick byes are said early in the morning, plans made for evening and the aviator goes off for a routine sortie. Some engine part malfunctions, rotor blades may stop, aircrafts May collide- and worlds comes crashing down! Scared children are picked up from school, the commanding officer with his spouse breaks the shattering news to the wife, and suddenly life changes for ever. Terrified children hold on to the shattered mother’s hands, the pregnant wife is suddenly left adrift, shocked parents of bachelors are informed on phone - the whole base is plunged into deep sorrow. The young wife, mostly in twenties or thirties, is suddenly faced with difficult choices, the children, who till few hours back were carefree and playful suddenly become serious.

Does Rahul Gandhi even realize for the widows / parents of the dead aviator, the most difficult moment is signing on insurance and other benefits papers? They break down, cry, and feel that it is blood money many refuse to sign and have to be counselled - and here Rahul Gandhi is offering them blood money as an incentive to cancel the Rafale deal?

Does Rahul Gandhi even realize the painful choices the wife has to make? In case she decides to opt for service in armed forces- where does she leave her children while she is training? The children who were the centre of parents’ attention, suddenly become issues which have to be managed. Young children, toddlers, infants are left with grandparents with a heavy heart, while the wife embarks upon a life she had never even thought of.

Does Rahul Gandhi even understand the deep loss that the family is left with? Every milestone in the child’s life sharpens the loss of the father, no amount of money can ever fill this loss.

Mr. Rahul Gandhi, have you even thought about the pregnant wife left behind, the unborn child who will never know the father, the emptiness the wife faces with no one to share her motherhood? The most intriguing part is Rahul Gandhi has himself lost a father - he often speaks about his sense of loss and then he makes this crass statement of offering pilots money from cancelled Rafale deal to die in airplane crashes! This is the true face of a heartless self-centred Dynast.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 10 Feb 2019 02:45

This guy is a complete idiot. He is trying to distill the very basic grassroots level corruption found in his fraternity and force feeds into the mouths of our military men.

Real classy Rahul, real classy.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 10 Feb 2019 13:47

First IAF Chinook arrives in Gujarat port by ship. Pictures and Videos on Twitter. Am from mobile, don't know how to post it. I think it is an on time delivery.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2019 20:56

Khalsa, acquiring old M2Ks from around thr world is only an interim solution, but at what cost to upgrade? $50+M a pop?
That does not cover extra labour costs the bone of contention between HAL and the IAF.Brand new MIG-29s which have repeatedly proved thrir superiority over the M2K ( AM Masand in Vayu) cost only $30M, and a brand new MIG- 35 not more than $40M.29 upbrades cost just around $12 to $13M only, which is 1/4th the official cost of M2K upgrades.

Therefore, we should look for more MIG-29s instead, plus it haz the sdded factor of being twin-engined , giving greater survivability , a moot point in the context of the tragic crash of the M2K and the loss of both pilots.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby hemant_sai » 10 Feb 2019 21:59

RS TV Security Scan Programme on HAL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAn_kVt6uQ0

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2019 22:38

‘HAL precious, but IAF should not be responsible for keeping it afloat’

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/sunda ... 26728.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 11 Feb 2019 08:51

What a beautiful interview. To the point, and well balanced.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 11 Feb 2019 10:37

I don’t believe so. We are quite capable of ruining ourselves! We don’t need a foreign hand


The best line in the whole interview for me!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 11 Feb 2019 10:45



Khan charges a lot.. but boy does he deliver!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Feb 2019 10:48

And that too on time! Kudos to Khan!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Feb 2019 12:31

Sir, but do remember these are also aircraft Khan has used and inducted for decades, there delays will be only with cutting edge stuff which they are yet induct and test fully. But still Kudos to them and their MIC, they definitely have the best stuff. How we stock enough spares to keep these aircraft sanctions proof during an emergency or when the Baloon has to go up.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Feb 2019 13:09

Mark my words...

One day in my grandson or daughters lifetime HAL will do the same.


P.S - They are not even a thought yet!!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 11 Feb 2019 14:13

Aditya_V wrote:Sir, but do remember these are also aircraft Khan has used and inducted for decades, there delays will be only with cutting edge stuff which they are yet induct and test fully. But still Kudos to them and their MIC, they definitely have the best stuff.


Probably true. They had been just as efficient as with the timely deliveries of the P-8i's

Aditya_V wrote:How we stock enough spares to keep these aircraft sanctions proof during an emergency or when the Baloon has to go up.


Now that is the multi-billion dollar question.. the fable (or is myth more accurate) of the Iranian Tomcats does come to mind. Current aircraft and their systems are much more advanced now but then again so is India.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 11 Feb 2019 14:37

Manish_P wrote:


Khan charges a lot.. but boy does he deliver!


Agreed. Delivery and quality is bang on what you pay for.
In my lifetime I have never seen the IAF buy so much western equipment as I have seen after 2000.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 11 Feb 2019 14:49

Indeed, we did really miss out on follow on order of 6 additional C 17s before the assembly line closure.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nits » 11 Feb 2019 15:34

Bhaskar_T wrote:First IAF Chinook arrives in Gujarat port by ship. Pictures and Videos on Twitter. Am from mobile, don't know how to post it. I think it is an on time delivery.


Picture

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 11 Feb 2019 18:39

ks_sachin wrote:Mark my words...

One day in my grandson or daughters lifetime HAL will do the same.


P.S - They are not even a thought yet!!!

They are already doing this for Dhruv.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 12 Feb 2019 17:11

Russia to the rescue of IAF, offers 21 MiG-29s to boost strength
https://theprint.in/defence/russia-to-t ... th/191328/

By Snehesh Alex Philip, 12 February 2019

Russians will upgrade the legacy aircraft to the standard that India wants, say IAF sources. India currently has three squadrons of MiG-29.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 12 Feb 2019 17:49

Wasn't IAF unhappy about fulcrums? Recall IAF's complains about quality issues it faced with them.
Should have ordered a squadron of MKI few years back directly from Russia instead.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Feb 2019 18:11

Manish_P wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Sir, but do remember these are also aircraft Khan has used and inducted for decades, there delays will be only with cutting edge stuff which they are yet induct and test fully. But still Kudos to them and their MIC, they definitely have the best stuff.


Probably true. They had been just as efficient as with the timely deliveries of the P-8i's

Aditya_V wrote:How we stock enough spares to keep these aircraft sanctions proof during an emergency or when the Baloon has to go up.


Now that is the multi-billion dollar question.. the fable (or is myth more accurate) of the Iranian Tomcats does come to mind. Current aircraft and their systems are much more advanced now but then again so is India.


Suprising as this may sound, spare parts for F-14 Tom cats and F-4's of Iranian AIr force have been supplied by the Yehudis with the wink wink from Khan. We should not believe the public rhetoric carte Blanche.
We have never been privy to such deals

https://www.upi.com/Israeli-arms-dealers-held-over-seized-F-4-parts-for-Iran/76501393270461/

This has been going with reports time to time from 1983

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 12 Feb 2019 18:27

x posted from the Tejus thread

Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India

Design, Development, Manufacture and Induction of Light Combat Aircraft

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 12 Feb 2019 18:31

Karthik S wrote:Wasn't IAF unhappy about fulcrums? Recall IAF's complains about quality issues it faced with them.
Should have ordered a squadron of MKI few years back directly from Russia instead.


Upgraded thereafter and with huge indigenization effort via BRDs.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 12 Feb 2019 18:32

ashishvikas wrote:Russia to the rescue of IAF, offers 21 MiG-29s to boost strength
https://theprint.in/defence/russia-to-t ... th/191328/

By Snehesh Alex Philip, 12 February 2019

Russians will upgrade the legacy aircraft to the standard that India wants, say IAF sources. India currently has three squadrons of MiG-29.

Hope this happens asap.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 12 Feb 2019 18:59

Karthik S wrote:Should have ordered a squadron of MKI few years back directly from Russia instead.


IAF does not want more Su30. Not because of the capability, because it is expensive.

IAF Chief specifically mentioned, it needs 2 times more humans and 3.5 more cost compared to a Mig-21 Sqd.


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