Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 14 Mar 2019 13:30

manoj_niketa wrote:Something very interesting thing i ever heard from Aviator Anil Chopra about 1971 attack on USS Enterprise
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 3774339072

it was thought of , never practiced or put into action.

Combined Arms Ops with Navy, Air Force and Army meant Dacca had fallen and we were shipping out the 90K prisoners at the rate of thousands a day.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 14 Mar 2019 14:11

Khalsa wrote:it was thought of , never practiced or put into action.


Sir, i think you should see the tweeted image again. It includes a very intriguing word 'enroute'

All i have seen and read about our Aviators indicate to me that they are anything other than boastful or given to exaggeration :)

I do admit though - the enroute can mean on the way to a forward base..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 14 Mar 2019 14:46

Sir, i heard it from word of mouth from an IAF officer of those times.
I doubt they ever sortied a practice. I was told that it was given serious consideration at that time with groups being formed to plan this in detail and look at options.

Many things were in the air,
What was the role of the Big E
1. Estabilish no fly zone over East Pakistan
2. Achieve above and punish Indian Army
3. Just Evacuate phoreners and save Pak Heads of state (east side)
4. Bottle Up and Punish INS Vikrant that was operating there.
5. All of the above

I think #2 and #4 worried us the most and the strikes on Big E from its left Flank would have slowed it down as it headed north towards East Pak.
The was also a crazy idea for Vikky to invite retribution and brush past the Indian East Coast and therefore place Big E in range of Indian Jets.
However very soon we realised it was going to be a one way mission. Big E would always remain out of effective range of our loaded jets.
Canberra would have been a dumb idea, slow and lumbering against F4s ??

Either way, the Soviets slowed them just enough and balanced them in the Bay.

Later on US experts have stated their aim was to scare the Indians back into India out of East Pak.
Big E group was never loaded for continous land operations and would have been effective for two weeks at most.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 14 Mar 2019 15:09

It was not the Soviet who slowed down Enterprise. It was the USN themselves.

They were not interested to get in to any fight and the USN admirals deliberately delayed the movement towards BoB.

IAF would have made preparation for any contigency. So not surprised sqd would have been be asked to work out the details.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Mar 2019 15:30

big E was supposed to secure Chittagong and evacuate the 90k lungi inspectors and rapists
a soviet sub was trailing the E battle group, but the whole thing was an OJ simpson car chase - slow and in the open
it was meant to scare india and slow down the war
that's why IG had said 2 weeks max to get to Dhaka - and Sam delivered

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 14 Mar 2019 15:55

nam wrote:It was not the Soviet who slowed down Enterprise. It was the USN themselves.

They were not interested to get in to any fight and the USN admirals deliberately delayed the movement towards BoB.

IAF would have made preparation for any contigency. So not surprised sqd would have been be asked to work out the details.


The Big E was entering a war zone. There was a ruskie sub reportedly closeby and shadowing her, probably the ruskies making a not too fine but a very obvious point.

The Big E would have had all her sensors up and an active CAP flying with instructions to aggressively prosecute all targets and fully armed fighters on the carrier lined up in a ready state to launch immediately, intercept, investigate and destroy any aggressor, especially a warplane that they could very easily identify because they had an almost identically similar aircraft in their forces as well.

the amerikis had decades of active carrier experience as well as uncounted numerous combat operations under their belt and their own flight crews were not novices new to the game. They would never have been caught napping.

They would have had forward deployed airborne Hawkeyes as well and the Big E's own escorts all around her, standing off at some good distance with sensors actively deployed.

While not detracting anything from the IAF, this would have been one operation that was well beyond the routine "tasking" of a target.

The odds would have been somewhat more than even formidable of ever reaching the Big E, let alone engaging it.
Last edited by chetak on 14 Mar 2019 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Mar 2019 15:56

bigE would be totally useless against the various streams of IA swarming into BD at all sides. at best they could enforce a no-fly zone over chittagong for some days , evacuate paki high rankers and foreign diplomats (who were anyway safe in dhaka and not attacked).

we had no need to attack BD from the sea, having done it the first few days and damaged all known ships beyond repair. all we'd need to do is ignore the bigE and keep whacking the PA on land and dare the muricans to "send in the marines" if they wanted to save their munna.

I dont think US has any stomach for landing marines to fight a big army on land. those are strictly for iraq types.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby esommuk » 14 Mar 2019 16:33

RAF Tornado GR4 fighter jets retiring after glorious service. They have evolved over the last 4 decades. I wonder why IAF never considered Tornado jets. Magnificent machine for ground attack!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sF7NaTEIQo

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 17:01

Single role aircraft.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 17:03

If IAF had gone up against big E, chances are they might have pulled off a surprise. As recent as 2004, Khan folks came in underestimating our guys.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 14 Mar 2019 17:44

Karan M wrote:Single role aircraft.


ANd how would the Tornados compare to the MiG 27s which we had in our fleet

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 14 Mar 2019 17:46

esommuk wrote:RAF Tornado GR4 fighter jets retiring after glorious service. They have evolved over the last 4 decades. I wonder why IAF never considered Tornado jets. Magnificent machine for ground attack!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sF7NaTEIQo

From memory, so could be way off here.
Remember reading that the VayuSena preferred this for the DPSA role but were denied the same and instead had to settle for the Jaguar.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Mar 2019 17:52

tornado is most comparable to the su24. good workhorses but little a2a capability albeit the RAF made a meal out of it with sparrow missiles and the mighty foxhunter radar as a nord sea defence against soviet bombers due to the tornado range, speed @ height.

given its shape, size and wings, it could hardly be called a dogfighter. very sturdy durable A2G DPSA bird with a high payload. good tool.

the GR4 had two radars - one for terrain following and one for ground attack . these days more powerful electronics and better antennas probably fold things into one like the RBE2.

Image

while moving around I found this old yellowed article on the M2k RDM and RDI radar. it shows what a fantastic product for its time it was and far superior to the initial F-solah apg65 radar..I think we got the RDI radar which was optimized for A2A intercepts.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 200550.PDF

here is a pic of the shadowy thales antilope5 terrain following radar the french kept for the M2K-D/N fleet

Image

for the mid-80s the M2k and FH77 were far ahead of the curve and at par with the best of the rest incl murica. and their design thinking shows they are still relevant and capable of a fight today. their designers have long retired, but they did a good old school job of it.

like a old bottle of wine from a noble vinyard, the M2K only gets better.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Mar 2019 18:33

re Big E - the IAF and IN focused on making Chittagong unusable for evacuation by attacking the harbour (including sea hawk strikes). the USN would have had difficulty evacuating any rapists that managed to fight their way to the coast anyway

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Mar 2019 18:40

tornado tried to be multi-role like the F4 but somehow it became biased towards one role more than another and the threats changed. as a deep penetration platform it was superb at the lo-lo profile, but there was almost an understanding that if they flew from Germany to the east, they weren't expecting to come back, or if they did then their home base might be glowing green. there was a classic advert in aviation magazines of the tornado entitled "under the curtain!" (meaning lo lo under the iron curtain). old school cold warrior.

the air defence variant was geared up to intercept blinders and backfires over the faroes gap but the Russians started deploying mig29's and Su30's which severely restricted other missions. as a stand off bvr platform it was probably ok, but couldn't hold its own in a WVR fight

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 14 Mar 2019 19:59

The Italian tornadoes (ECR) are the only European assets currently in service that have the capability to assist in DEAD while utilizing a modern ARM that can counter shut-down tactics (European F-16 operators never upgraded)...So it is still a hugely important thing for Europe from a capability perspective and probably why the Germans seem to be expressing some interest in the Growler...The European F-35A's won't get that capability till at least 2023.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 14 Mar 2019 20:06

From an old Vayu Magazine , Tornado along with Mirage-2005 and Flanker was evaluated for IAF next gen Aircraft.

The Flanker was eventually chosen as next gen multirole aircraft to be lic produced in India.

Although strictly speaking Tornado was approaching the EOL and by late 90's and it was a dedicated Ground Attack aircraft rather then true multirole one.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 14 Mar 2019 20:13

Yeah it was always a stretch to call the Tornado a "multi role aircraft" in the same category as the M2K, F-16, or the heavy fighters like the Su-30 and the F-15E.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Mar 2019 20:23

"Multirole" = EBAE?
(equally bad at everything)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 14 Mar 2019 20:25

Karan M wrote:If IAF had gone up against big E, chances are they might have pulled off a surprise. As recent as 2004, Khan folks came in underestimating our guys.



Not easy to hit a carrier at sea, especially one in a combat zone and that too using shore based aircraft.

There would have been major issues in 1971 in locating, tracking and neutralizing unless it was a kamikaze and not expected to return, in which case the chances would have been only very, very marginally higher.

Exercises are very different from operations. Neither side will expose anything much in an exercise and most of the praise is psyops in the hope of drawing out the opposing party into revealing something more than what was actually shown.

Indians are known suckers for gora praise and often become garrulous when the tongue is suitably lubricated. Maybe a few centuries of colonization and being under the gora boot will do that.

of all the schitt that the amerikis will tell you, especially after "joint" exercises, believe only 10%.

Even less, if one is really smart.

Any smart professional force will be very circumspect in revealing its true operational capabilities, especially to a bunch of yahoos who are tight with the pakis like the US military obviously is.

Only brochure printed and glossy paper headline features and headline numbers will be on display from both sides and not a damn thing beyond that.

our combat personnel don't trust gora military and vice versa and everybody is walking on eggshells.

what do you think happens when we do military exercises with the hans??

Our guys probably carry mithai boxes and shove a mithai every time into any cheeni mouth that opens.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Mar 2019 21:12

^^^ almost nothing comes out after exercises with the French, Russians, singaporeans, etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby AdityaM » 14 Mar 2019 21:18

Comments on Twitter post suggested 40 pilots volunteered for Kamikaze

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gyan » 14 Mar 2019 21:35

Do not forget that USA was fighting a loosing war in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia in 1971 and had no interest or stomach for any other confrontation. West was getting it in the balls in Africa, ME & Latin America and it was peak time of Soviet power.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 14 Mar 2019 21:37

One of the best Mig 27 take off with full after burner by probably the best aviation spotter in India - Abhishek Singh


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gyan » 14 Mar 2019 21:37

On another note, what we need for fighter aircraft on urgent basis for a shooting war is :-

Jammers
Towed decoys
Derby ER
LOTS of spares for our existing fleet
More heavy PGMs like spice, kh series, kab series etc

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 21:54

chetak wrote:Not easy to hit a carrier at sea, especially one in a combat zone and that too using shore based aircraft.

There would have been major issues in 1971 in locating, tracking and neutralizing unless it was a kamikaze and not expected to return, in which case the chances would have been only very, very marginally higher.


It would be a one way trip in all likelihood but I'd still put my coin on the Indian side showing a nasty surprise.

Exercises are very different from operations. Neither side will expose anything much in an exercise and most of the praise is psyops in the hope of drawing out the opposing party into revealing something more than what was actually shown.

Indians are known suckers for gora praise and often become garrulous when the tongue is suitably lubricated. Maybe a few centuries of colonization and being under the gora boot will do that.

of all the schitt that the amerikis will tell you, especially after "joint" exercises, believe only 10%.

Even less, if one is really smart.

Any smart professional force will be very circumspect in revealing its true operational capabilities, especially to a bunch of yahoos who are tight with the pakis like the US military obviously is.


I dont think the Indian military is much of a sucker for praise of any kind. Nor is there much info that has ever emerged from any joint exercise with the Americans etc, in fact one has to look very very hard, unless as is often the norm, we surprise them with the sophistication of our tactics or equipment & hence there is a submission to some Congressional panel, US Mag etc. Much to do with their internal requirements, rarely with ours. The whole Cope India newsleak for instance was all about the aggrieved fighter pilots setting the record straight to the rest of the AF/establishment about what they faced and why they lost, and not as much about praising the IAF to extract more info.

Only brochure printed and glossy paper headline features and headline numbers will be on display from both sides and not a damn thing beyond that.


Not necessarily. I am well aware of the detailed SOPs that are drawn up & both sides agree to some level of information sharing. Exercises vary from country to country and we have really shared a lot of our capabilities and vice versa (though of course some stuff is kept under wraps).

our combat personnel don't trust gora military and vice versa and everybody is walking on eggshells.
what do you think happens when we do military exercises with the hans??
Our guys probably carry mithai boxes and shove a mithai every time into any cheeni mouth that opens.


Its not a question of trust or otherwise, more like trust but verify & have SOPs in place about what can and cannot be shared. Our growing technological competence has also meant that we no longer have to depend purely on foreign OEMs to come up with software fixes for some of our simulated gear as well.

But in any exercise, whether we like it or not, to get maximal training value, a lot of our competence & equipment capability does get revealed. And we have to live with that. Because what we get in terms of Dissimilar Combat Training is equally invaluable.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 14 Mar 2019 21:56

AdityaM wrote:Comments on Twitter post suggested 40 pilots volunteered for Kamikaze


There is no concept of kamikaze here.

who would have approved and how??

and ultimately, would insurance have paid out??

wonder what their wives would have said about that??

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Mar 2019 21:57

do we still have any Mig27 left?

the sqdn in hashimara has been scrapped and 22 derelict airframes are lying in the open.

base is waiting for rafale.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 22:09

chetak wrote:
AdityaM wrote:Comments on Twitter post suggested 40 pilots volunteered for Kamikaze


There is no concept of kamikaze here.

who would have approved and how??

and ultimately, would insurance have paid out??

wonder what their wives would have said about that??


I dont think insurance or even family even come into the picture here. Did the CO of the Khukhri not go down with his ship? At Kargil, so many soldiers launched do or die attacks with little to no expectation of survival against overwhelming odds. Again paltan/regiment/fauj/desh ki izzat & orders, were what mattered. Did Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon care about his chances when taking on those Sabres?

In such a milieu, and ethos, of course each of these guys would have wanted to come back (so not a true Kamikaze run) but not surprised at all that our guys would have stood up no matter the odds.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 22:17

Singha wrote:do we still have any Mig27 left?

the sqdn in hashimara has been scrapped and 22 derelict airframes are lying in the open.

base is waiting for rafale.


2x MiG-27 ML upgraded squadrons and I wont be surprised if some 23BN 2x seaters are also around for conversion training.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 14 Mar 2019 22:33

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:Not easy to hit a carrier at sea, especially one in a combat zone and that too using shore based aircraft.

There would have been major issues in 1971 in locating, tracking and neutralizing unless it was a kamikaze and not expected to return, in which case the chances would have been only very, very marginally higher.


It would be a one way trip in all likelihood but I'd still put my coin on the Indian side showing a nasty surprise.

Exercises are very different from operations. Neither side will expose anything much in an exercise and most of the praise is psyops in the hope of drawing out the opposing party into revealing something more than what was actually shown.

Indians are known suckers for gora praise and often become garrulous when the tongue is suitably lubricated. Maybe a few centuries of colonization and being under the gora boot will do that.

of all the schitt that the amerikis will tell you, especially after "joint" exercises, believe only 10%.

Even less, if one is really smart.

Any smart professional force will be very circumspect in revealing its true operational capabilities, especially to a bunch of yahoos who are tight with the pakis like the US military obviously is.


I dont think the Indian military is much of a sucker for praise of any kind. Nor is there much info that has ever emerged from any joint exercise with the Americans etc, unless as is often the norm, we surprise them with the sophistication of our tactics or equipment & hence there is a submission to some Congressional panel etc. Much to do with their internal requirements, rarely with ours.

Only brochure printed and glossy paper headline features and headline numbers will be on display from both sides and not a damn thing beyond that.


Not necessarily. I am well aware of the detailed SOPs that are drawn up & both sides agree to some level of information sharing.

our combat personnel don't trust gora military and vice versa and everybody is walking on eggshells.
what do you think happens when we do military exercises with the hans??
Our guys probably carry mithai boxes and shove a mithai every time into any cheeni mouth that opens.


Its not a question of trust or otherwise, more like trust but verify & have SOPs in place about what can and cannot be shared. Our growing technological competence has also meant that we no longer have to depend purely on foreign OEMs to come up with software fixes for some of our simulated gear as well.

But in any exercise, whether we like it or not, to get maximal training value, a lot of our competence & equipment capability does get revealed. And we have to live with that. Because what we get in terms of Dissimilar Combat Training is equally invaluable.


I have participated in many and no one opens their mouth, irrespective of what "agreements" have been signed. Everyone smiles, claps, shake hands and then quietly head home after the debrief and only a very few are allowed to speak.

The place is swarming with intelligence types from both sides, watching like hawks, anyway.

Agreements are hopeful documents and just to maintain cordial relations, signed under duress from our govt under serious pressure from the other govt.

remember the kilo story and how much pressure we came under from them as well as our own bab(oo)n gangs slyly looking for visas and jobs??

don't bet coin on such fruitless endeavours.

I say again, no one will trust another military. we will never fight alongside them as allies because they will never cede command to us anywhere and under any circumstances and we will not be commanded by them.

we may just end up on opposite sides one day, and one never knows how the future will pan out. So keeping the powder dry is of vital importance.

silence and playing dumb beats any "agreement" or "SOP" or "training benefit".

pilots and crews are smart enough to garner bits and pieces of savvy operational techniques and inspired use of systems and equipment capabilities without ever talking about it to the opposing side. once something exhibits even the smallest of patterns, it is easy for experienced hands to clearly discern it and decipher the use and find the counter.

The amerikis have already flown every aircraft in our inventory (or its very close cousin) somewhere or the other in the world.

they are very keen to understand our exploitation techniques because it sometimes reveals russian training methods, russian operational methodology and the Indian build up on that.

they certainly don't come here with gandhian principles on their minds.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 14 Mar 2019 22:35

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:
There is no concept of kamikaze here.

who would have approved and how??

and ultimately, would insurance have paid out??

wonder what their wives would have said about that??


I dont think insurance or even family even come into the picture here. Did the CO of the Khukhri not go down with his ship? At Kargil, so many soldiers launched do or die attacks with little to no expectation of survival against overwhelming odds. Again paltan/regiment/fauj/desh ki izzat & orders, were what mattered. Did Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon care about his chances when taking on those Sabres?

In such a milieu, and ethos, of course each of these guys would have wanted to come back (so not a true Kamikaze run) but not surprised at all that our guys would have stood up no matter the odds.


I don't think that you have understood the kamikaze concept. It is not a spur of the moment thing as you seem to imagine.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 22:44

I understand it very well.

Nor did I make any comment about it being a spur of the moment thing or mention anything about the planning.

What I did point out though is that on multiple, real world occasions, actual folks went ahead and took these decisions without even being asked to!!

So, to bring issues like insurance etc into the discussion is immaterial. Furthermore, if somebody like Indira Gandhi was in power, she would care two hoots about what LIC said or didn't say.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 22:59

chetak wrote:I have participated in many and no one opens their mouth, irrespective of what "agreements" have been signed. Everyone smiles, claps, shake hands and then quietly head home after the debrief and only a very few are allowed to speak.

The place is swarming with intelligence types from both sides, watching like hawks, anyway.

Agreements are hopeful documents and just to maintain cordial relations, signed under duress from our govt under serious pressure from the other govt.


I disagree, especially about the last part because I know for a fact that very few of these exercises are "under duress". In fact your entire account makes it seem that we are forced into these events by malevolent entities and we are not competent (gora worship, loose lips) to manage our affairs or even run our own ship tightly. On the contrary, many of these exercises were pushed for by senior leadership in our services, and took advantage of the available opportunities, as they saw the advantages they would bring in terms of benchmarking our own capabilities, figure out what we are lacking in & how to improve. It was give & take, facilitated by the MEA who used it for projecting our image internationally as a side benefit.

remember the kilo story and how much pressure we came under from them as well as our own bab(oo)n gangs slyly looking for visas and jobs??
don't bet coin on such fruitless endeavours.
I say again, no one will trust another military. we will never fight alongside them as allies because they will never cede command to us anywhere and under any circumstances and we will not be commanded by them.


Its not a question of trust or friendship or anything of the sort but somethings which are far more prosaic.
Do we understand their SOPs and baseline procedures?
If push came to shove, is there interoperability?
Under the mutually agreed upon parameters is there equivalence? Are we far ahead in some areas or behind? Both equipment and training.
The last is often the most commonly understood one, but the first two are equally important & which is why the Pakis and Chinese get really upset whenever we exercise with the US/western alliances.
Even in the last, these exercises serve as the impetus to change thinking of the day - Cope India is often talked of how it woke up the USAF to change its training. Similarly, several exercises in India helped the IAF in figuring out how to deal with certain platforms and capabilities they may face in the future from our regional adversaries.

we may just end up on opposite sides one day, and one never knows how the future will pan out. So keeping the powder dry is of vital importance.
silence and playing dumb beats any "agreement" or "SOP" or "training benefit".


Agree with the first but disagree with the second. Silence and playing dumb only works insofar you have everything and know everything. Even the US spends a huge amount of effort & coin in training with almost every other force across the world & learning from them, and incorporating the lessons. We have also picked up a huge amount of learning from our exercises with NATO & other AFs and have tweaked our capabilities accordingly. We need not share everything we have in our toybox either in these exercises, which is why there are all sorts of notional limits on weapons put, maneuvering limits, simulated benefit from countermeasures etc.

pilots and crews are smart enough to garner bits and pieces of savvy operational techniques and inspired use of systems and equipment capabilities without ever talking about it to the opposing side. once something exhibits even the smallest of patterns, it is easy for experienced hands to clearly discern it and decipher the use and find the counter.
The amerikis have already flown every aircraft in our inventory (or its very close cousin) somewhere or the other in the world.


You really can't find a counter to specific items in our inventory unless you own it, and in many cases what we own is unique to us. This is the reason why some of our aircraft only simulate specific capabilities & don't reveal the operational aspects.

they are very keen to understand our exploitation techniques because it sometimes reveals russian training methods, russian operational methodology and the Indian build up on that.


It is increasingly rare that we use any Russian training methods or operational methodology in any of our exploitation. In fact we have had several cases wherein we have gone back to the Russians to train with them to figure out how they use the equipment we originally procured from them, because they inducted it decades after we did, and are now drawing up SOPs which we developed on our own. Always helps to understand what their procedures are.

they certainly don't come here with gandhian principles on their minds.


Nor do we go there with any Gandhian principles in ours, at least not anymore. Its give and take and we are fully committed to taking our advantages as well.

esommuk
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby esommuk » 15 Mar 2019 00:08

26/11 was wake up call for Indian military establishment as it exposed the gaps in security of littoral waters (w.r.t. asymmetric warfare) while we were pursuing dreams of a blue-water capability. I guess for all the three forces the rhetorical question remains ... should military be task-oriented or perception oriented projecting power against imaginary scenarios and enemies!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 15 Mar 2019 00:27

Let's not give too much credence to Twitter gossip about "Kamikaze" pilots. That is a Japanese concept which does not fit in with the ethos of our military.

What would fit in is this. I am sure there were contingency plans made for the IAF to attack the Enterprise in case the Americans decided to actively participate in the conflict and whatever the Enterprise was doing began to hurt us. We have had several reports over the years about such plans being present (along with one I remember about a paratrooper assault on Diego Garcia, which as per anecdotal evidence was in advanced stages of implementation before being called off. Cannot attest to the authenticity of that though). And these plans to attack the Enterprise would, like any other plans be assigned to specific units to carry out. Now since the chances of survival of the pilots would be low, it is possible the commanding officer of an individual unit may decide to let his men volunteer for the mission rather than choose whoever is next in the rotation. But I have no doubt that if any commander actually did that, all hands in the room would go up. This has nothing to do with any Kamikaze nonsense. Each of the pilots would try his level best to fulfill the mission and return safely albeit knowing that it would be extremely difficult to do. But no one would elect to sit out because chances of survival were low. Our men (from all services) have proved time and again that that is not a consideration for them and they will do their duty no matter what. Calling it Kamikaze would be incorrect however.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 15 Mar 2019 04:53

By Mihir Shah

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... senal.html

Transformation in IAF missile armory.

khan
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby khan » 15 Mar 2019 05:23

ramana wrote:By Mihir Shah

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... senal.html

Transformation in IAF missile armory.

Good summary & will probably be the most cited reference for the state of IAF missile armory for the next few years.

It is almost criminal that it has been 9 years since TSP got their AMRAAM’s and India pilots don’t have anything comparable.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Mar 2019 06:21

^^ We do have stuff that is comparable and probably not the best time to discuss it either.

BrarW
Have you seen this, or do you have access to this? Interested in seeing what these guys make of the J-20A.

https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/ab ... ec_a_00337

V_Raman
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby V_Raman » 15 Mar 2019 06:35

Can I post the J-20 related content here or will that be copyright violation? It seems to be an unauthenticated open link.


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