Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Mar 2019 06:37

V_Raman, a few excerpts or a synopsis should be ok, but best avoid posting the entire article.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2019 07:37

V_Raman wrote:Can I post the J-20 related content here or will that be copyright violation? It seems to be an unauthenticated open link.

You can post the summary of their key points and any punchy statements in quotes.

If you have the time.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2019 07:50

Never mind.. found it.
http://www.css.ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz ... 238-EN.pdf

Nevertheless, China has struggled tremendously in imitating US fifth-generation jet fighters. The Chinese J-20 Black Eagle displays several features on the front, sides, and rear that would significantly increase the chance of detection to enemy radar (namely, canards in the front and unshielded engine nozzles in the back). China has also struggled with the development of reliable and powerful low-bypass turbofan engines that provide both enhanced maneuverability (thrust-vectoring) and sustained supersonic speed (supercruise). China has in fact en-countered never-ending problems with the engine intended for the J-20 – including explosions during ground tests. In fact, the indigenous engines China has mounted on the J-20 have proven to be unreliable and underpowered – moreover, they do not pro-vide either high maneuverability or sus-tained supersonic speed.

srin · Post by **srin** » 15 Mar 2019 07:52

ramana wrote:By Mihir Shah

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... senal.html

Transformation in IAF missile armory.

There was supposed to be longer range Astra Mk2 - is that now the SFDR project ?

There was also some news around AI17 that Tejas is going to get IDerby-ER (with 100 km range) and not just the vanilla Derby.

srin · Post by **srin** » 15 Mar 2019 07:57

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ almost nothing comes out after exercises with the French, Russians, singaporeans, etc.

I was hoping that we learnt a lot about F16s and AMRAAMs exercising ("bilateral training" is what it's called) with Singapore AF at Kalaikunda. Otherwise, why would we care ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 15 Mar 2019 08:20

chetak wrote: remember the kilo story and how much pressure we came under from them as well as our own bab(oo)n gangs slyly looking for visas and jobs??

.....

Chetak Ji what is this kilo story?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2019 10:25

srin wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:^^^ almost nothing comes out after exercises with the French, Russians, singaporeans, etc.
I was hoping that we learnt a lot about F16s and AMRAAMs exercising ("bilateral training" is what it's called) with Singapore AF at Kalaikunda. Otherwise, why would we care ?

We have learnt huge amounts of stuff and continue to do so on the exploitation (how eqpt is used by the opposite side). The tech stuff, with MMRCA, IAF knows a fair amount regarding most of the current gen weapons systems on the market, and most fighters as well. Plus as we develop equivalent items, we can see through some of the claims as well.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Mar 2019 11:12

My reading of Indian pschye tells me we go to exercises with our best trying to prove a point whereas Massa and others simply turn up , soak up a lot of data , give a pat on the back to the SDRE and go back home to do their homework . I mean one does not have to even over analyse this Massa always turns up with their B team with F-15s and we are eager to go with MKIs , M2Ks and full the contingent . A true evaluation of how good their AF and pilots are would happen when they field the Raptor and the Lightening but they don't show those cards for a reason.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Mar 2019 11:20

srin wrote:
ramana wrote:By Mihir Shah

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... senal.html

T.

He mentions Python 4/5 in current IAF inventory for Jaguar and Tejas, I know navy had Python 4 for SHAR's and IAF Python 5 for Spyder Air Defence system, never knew that Python 4/5 for Tejas and Jaguar, in fact I thought Python 5 had failed flutter tests on the Tejas?

Anyone can throw any more light whether Python4/5 have been intergrated with Jaguar and Tejas?

From the article

And while the Python has been cleared for carriage aboard the Tejas LCA, there has been very little movement on bulk orders, making their future in the IAF far from certain.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2019 12:11

negi wrote:My reading of Indian pschye tells me we go to exercises with our best trying to prove a point whereas Massa and others simply turn up , soak up a lot of data , give a pat on the back to the SDRE and go back home to do their homework . I mean one does not have to even over analyse this Massa always turns up with their B team with F-15s and we are eager to go with MKIs , M2Ks and full the contingent . A true evaluation of how good their AF and pilots are would happen when they field the Raptor and the Lightening but they don't show those cards for a reason.

Negi, their so called B team was their A team till yesterday and remains very dangerous, highly skilled crew with some of the latest avionics. And where do we turn up with all our bells and whistles? We refused to do BVR in an Indradhanush because an E3 was snooping nearby. We had a training mode put on Bars. We only simulate theoretical weapons. In no exercise outside India have we taken our real EW capabilities. The list goes on and on...the French sent Rafales to Nellis, is it an issue with their psyche? Or simply that we want to train against the best equipment in the world?

Second, there is a prosaic reason why no Lightnings have been in IAF exercises, they are showing up just now. As regards the F22, they wont show it in front of us because unlike Su30, it has no EW to protect it. Its greatest and only attribute is its stealth including its radar. The kinematics while impressive are there even in EF. They will protect it as long as they can. They wont even use it in BVR against allies, lest Thales etc develop countermeasures.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2019 12:16

Aditya I am completely unaware of Python4/5s on Jaguar. IIRC they were rejected in favor of ASRAAM.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Mar 2019 12:19

Yes but Livefest specially mentions that Python 5 is in inventory and has been cleared for carriage but bulk orders are pending which will go ASRAAM. Didnt know Python 5 has been certified on Tejas.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2019 12:20

It has not AFAIK on Jaguar or on Tejas. It is in inventory via SpyDer anyhow.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Mar 2019 13:30

Aditya_V wrote:Yes but Livefest specially mentions that Python 5 is in inventory and has been cleared for carriage but bulk orders are pending which will go ASRAAM. Didnt know Python 5 has been certified on Tejas.

It was supposed to be qualified on the Tejas but that never happened (IIRC there were issues with vibration or distorted airflow. I fail to remember correctly now).

srin · Post by **srin** » 15 Mar 2019 14:20

I remember seeing Python 5 on a Sea Harrier - I think it was part of the LUSH upgrade. But I don't recall seeing any other aircraft with it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Mar 2019 14:55

Guys, Wing Co Abhinandan, is now a public icon. How do I know this?

I had gone out for lunch and I see a sketch of his as a screen saver on the smart phone of a guy sitting next to me.

I just smiled at him.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 15 Mar 2019 15:58

Are those Pythons ?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 15 Mar 2019 16:02

No Its Magic 2

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 15 Mar 2019 20:11

Tejas has tough shoes to fill and I am sure she will fill it with distinction.

MiG-21 Bison shooting down F-16 attests to IAF's combat prowess;
procuring next-gen aircraft key to maintaining edge
https://www.firstpost.com/india/mig-21- ... 68331.html

By Air Marshal L K Malhotra

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 16 Mar 2019 00:17

Karan M wrote:^^ We do have stuff that is comparable and probably not the best time to discuss it either.

BrarW
Have you seen this, or do you have access to this? Interested in seeing what these guys make of the J-20A.

https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/ab ... ec_a_00337

Synopsis:

J-20 rushed to forces due to increasing tensions in SCS
Several design flaws on the sides and rear resulting in reduced stealthiness and air-to-air limitations

Usage of canards is poor design for 5th gen fighters - exact words for canards below

Moreover, the J-20 displays two small wing projections (canards) forward of the main wings. Generally intended to help the longitudinal equilibrium, and static and dynamic stability, of an aircraft, the canards also increase its frontal radar cross section, thus limiting its overall capabilities. From an industrial perspective, that the J-20 carries canards suggests poor design. As noted, little can be done about poor designs, which, once adopted, can be improved only marginally

Inability to develop a reliable TVC turbofan engine - switched back to russian engines - Kaveri is critical here - productionize it!

These more advanced engines have experienced “critical problems,” however, including an explosion during a ground test in 2015. According to an anonymous source, as of 2018, “engineers had failed to find the key reason for these problems,“and apparently ”there was no fundamental solution to overcome them.“

Avionics J-20 continues to face issues - here is where LCA achievement is no mean feat and that too without copying!

Software problems, in fact, are very difficult to anticipate: testing and refining must continue until the software is perfected, given that when the aerospace software fails, it fails “cat-astrophically.” Because China has thus far been unable to copy U.S. aircraft design and engines, there is little reason to believe that it has been more successful in this much more challenging realm.

Not successful in developing reliable 4th gen fighter as well - despite deep TOT and copying - again LCA is no mean feat!

The production process did not go smoothly, however. For example, at “one point the [Chinese engines] were reportedly requiring overhauls every thirty hours of flight time, compared to four hundred hours for … the Su-27.” Similarly, according to U.S. sources, some variants of this aircraft have been “in big trouble,” as technical malfunctions have led to several crash landings.

Cost advantage of only 10% to 20% over F-22. This is even less impressive given that F-22 is operational for 12 years
Overall - China has been unable to copy US stealth designs and technology. Limitations of copying seems to been reached
Lag one or two gens behind depending on the area and narrowing the gap in near-term are slim

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 16 Mar 2019 03:07

Karan M wrote:^^ We do have stuff that is comparable and probably not the best time to discuss it either.

What stuff? There is no stuff. We are going to lose onlee

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 16 Mar 2019 03:18

Aditya_V wrote: He mentions Python 4/5 in current IAF inventory for Jaguar and Tejas, I know navy had Python 4 for SHAR's and IAF Python 5 for Spyder Air Defence system, never knew that Python 4/5 for Tejas and Jaguar, in fact I thought Python 5 had failed flutter tests on the Tejas?

Anyone can throw any more light whether Python4/5 have been intergrated with Jaguar and Tejas?

That was a typo at my end. Python 4 equipped with Tejas, and IIRC, a small number were ordered for the Jaguar as well.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Mar 2019 04:43

Didn't know that so Jag's and M 2000 carry Python ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Mar 2019 07:16

Aditya_V wrote:Didn't know that so Jag's and M 2000 carry Python ?

M2k uses the Magic II (pre-upgrade) and MICA-IR (post upgrade).

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Mar 2019 07:53

Khalsa wrote:
manoj_niketa wrote:Something very interesting thing i ever heard from Aviator Anil Chopra about 1971 attack on USS Enterprise
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 3774339072
it was thought of , never practiced or put into action.

Combined Arms Ops with Navy, Air Force and Army meant Dacca had fallen and we were shipping out the 90K prisoners at the rate of thousands a day.

AdityaM wrote:Comments on Twitter post suggested 40 pilots volunteered for Kamikaze

Mein Gott! Epic beyond belief. Glad it never happened. But would have been stuff of legends.

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 16 Mar 2019 11:43

V_Raman wrote:Can I post the J-20 related content here or will that be copyright violation? It seems to be an unauthenticated open link.

As long as you provide attribution, you can copy paste any amount of text as you want, as the work in licensed under Creative Commons Attribution license. The page says "This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2019 11:53

i had read a forum post projecting the canards of j20 as a miraculous discovery they made and kind of having their cake and eating it.

it is a ungainly and fairly obese bomb truck and will not survive any encounter with a quality fighter + aam combo whether bvr or wvr . its size may offer some protection from impact and pilots may be able to eject safely.

I dont think its a recoverable solution even if F119 o F135 sized engines be fitted on it. moment i saw it years ago, i knew in my gut that AL31 sized engines would not suffice and it really needed the Mig31 sized engines.

the JSF though small has a massive engine as the bulky fuselage of a/c with internal bays is not efficient vs the sleek F-solah types.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Mar 2019 12:08

Singha wrote:i had read a forum post projecting the canards of j20 as a miraculous discovery they made and kind of having their cake and eating it.

it is a ungainly and fairly obese bomb truck and will not survive any encounter with a quality fighter + aam combo whether bvr or wvr . its size may offer some protection from impact and pilots may be able to eject safely.

I dont think its a recoverable solution even if F119 o F135 sized engines be fitted on it. moment i saw it years ago, i knew in my gut that AL31 sized engines would not suffice and it really needed the Mig31 sized engines.

the JSF though small has a massive engine as the bulky fuselage of a/c with internal bays is not efficient vs the sleek F-solah types.

No one could even find the gun on the thing! So no it won't likely be in any furball. But not a bomb truck as we envision for multi-role planes like the F-15E/F-18/SU-30. But a big interceptor with long range mijjiles like those from the Cold War. Archaic in concept but probably accurate -- unless we see a gun one day.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Mar 2019 12:12

Guys may be this is not the thread to discuss J-20?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2019 12:30

if the idea was a VLO Foxhound to target the usaf support assets with ERAMs, ..... massa is loading up every platform with anti stealth radar and will be sending f22s to hunt down these relatively lumbering J20s coming out to play. steps are being taken to increase the unrefuelled combat radius of JSF which is already good to greater, permits support assets to move back too.

I call J20 a abject failure, both in concept and in execution. due to loss of face, they will try to paper this over by unveiling and making a big noise about their B2 sized concept they are teasing

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 16 Mar 2019 15:09

This article nicely captures future of IAF missile inventory (the mix of missile will be a nightmare for EW/ECM systems of enemy forces)

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... senal.html

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 16 Mar 2019 15:32

chola wrote:
Khalsa wrote: it was thought of , never practiced or put into action.

Combined Arms Ops with Navy, Air Force and Army meant Dacca had fallen and we were shipping out the 90K prisoners at the rate of thousands a day.

AdityaM wrote:Comments on Twitter post suggested 40 pilots volunteered for Kamikaze
Mein Gott! Epic beyond belief. Glad it never happened. But would have been stuff of legends.

no that posters comments around 40 KK Pilots and their families would be looked after is total BS.
Think more of war time meeting in Squadron HQ pouring over maps and talking to naval aviators etc.
There was jokes around crashed landing. This is all gettings it own unwarranted momentum.

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Mar 2019 15:40

Chipanda now has all the money and they have all the underhand tactics , today they may fail but eventually they will master both the engine tech as well as field a true 5th gen. fighter , we cannot count on them failing .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Mar 2019 20:52

Sumeet wrote:This article nicely captures future of IAF missile inventory (the mix of missile will be a nightmare for EW/ECM systems of enemy forces)

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... senal.html

The reverse is also true with so many different AAM in inventory it will create interoperibility issues on the types of ac these missiles can be integrated and also logistics issues and cost becuase of the need to maintain inventory and each type needing its own nuances in maintaining them. ( imagine the number of Air basis we have and these types needing to be stored and operated by ground crew etc )

It will better to employ a single type and develop a block model and improve capability ecm etc of these missiles

I dont know if IAF even believes in something like logistics and rationalisation of force they are burdening their own OPEX and CAPEX

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Mar 2019 21:03

BTW the Python-4/5 is not on the Tejas or Jags but on Mirages.

In mid 2000 Python-4 was integrated on M2K followed later by P-5

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Mar 2019 21:30

I am of the view for important kit like BVR, CCM & ECM we should maintain 2 or 3 types. Reduce the jet types, which is fine.

However these types should be integrated across the board. Su30 firing a desi bvr and 1/2 firangi maal.

We can quite easily maintain them. Make it difficult for adversary to create counter and keeping some import pipeline open helps in diplomacy.

A good example is PAF state after Su30 dogged the TFTA Aim120. That was their ONLY operational BVR!

Now they must be running around headless to find something else.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Mar 2019 21:38

We really dont know how su-30 managed to dodge AIM-120C5 , There are many ways to defeat to defeat a missile kinetically , electronically a combination of both or possible Rabid PAF pilot just fired AIM shouting AOA hoping one would hit.

I have yet to see any serious statistical data or any thing concrete from IAF to show maintaining 3 types or 10 types has better ability to defeat an enemy.

Likely this is due to legacy purchase where we bought 40 , 100 ,200 AC from 3 countries UK , Russian French and bought their weapons which would not integrate with the other two , then israel came into picture and we bought that too ,then US weapons were available and then we gladly added that , so that is how we ended having many weapons types due to interoperability integration issue and some one of purchase for some squadrons in achoc manner

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Mar 2019 23:47

Well neither do PAF know how the Aim120 missed it target. The sudden rumour about PL15 been inducted might be related. It has no other source for BVR.

Another example is the Syrian su22 dodging Aim9x from USAF. Works for khan. If our R73 doesn't work out, atleast we have python, mica and asraam!

Not saying having 10 types is ideal, however there should be some backup plans.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Mar 2019 23:50

i read a while back that Russian tactics were to fire salvos of guided missiles at a target /targets - mix of SARH and IR to either force a mission kill or increase the size of the no escape zone(s)

as we have hypothesised before - the paf most likely fired the amraams at the outer end of their range, hoping for the best. the su 30's and m2k's had enough time and countermeasures to dodge them

the IAF has made a number of formal statements around this topic, which are somewhere earlier in the thread

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 18 Mar 2019 05:52

Austin wrote:
Sumeet wrote:This article nicely captures future of IAF missile inventory (the mix of missile will be a nightmare for EW/ECM systems of enemy forces)

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... senal.html
The reverse is also true with so many different AAM in inventory it will create interoperibility issues on the types of ac these missiles can be integrated and also logistics issues and cost becuase of the need to maintain inventory and each type needing its own nuances in maintaining them. ( imagine the number of Air basis we have and these types needing to be stored and operated by ground crew etc )

It will better to employ a single type and develop a block model and improve capability ecm etc of these missiles

I dont know if IAF even believes in something like logistics and rationalisation of force they are burdening their own OPEX and CAPEX

Austin as long as we have aircrafts from various sources we will have to deal with the mix. That said fleet wide standardization efforts are on. Astra, ASRAAM and SFDC missile will be common across the fleet. Please read the article if you haven't already read it.