Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 01 Aug 2019 23:51

Yes!

This is quite an "old" procurement, and only the first tranche. Many more will have to be procured for whole of IAF. Nothing to do with Balakote.

2015 was when the deal was first won
https://defense-update.com/20150220_yaa ... rview.html

Feb 2019
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2019/02/1 ... aircrafts/
Rafael sets up facility for assembly (very wary of BEL etc learning their "secrets") + offsets.
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-rafa ... 1001275480
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24354 ... tions_Deal

Rakesh wrote:So basically this was DDM at its best again?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Y. Kanan » 02 Aug 2019 00:55

Rakesh wrote:The Su-30MKI, Vikramaditya, MiG-29K episodes are fresh in the minds of Indian military planners.


I agree the Admiral Gorshkov\Vikramaditya saga was rediculous, and yes the Mig-29K sounds like a very unreliable aircraft, but why do you mention the SU-30MKI? Has it proven to be a disappointment as well?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Aug 2019 00:59

Disappointed to see that the R-27 variant is not the R-27AE but the R-27R1/ER1 and R-27T1/ET1.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2019 01:53

Same here, but lets wait for more news as well. Social media (claiming AE) was dubious at best.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2019 02:01

I remain confident the new acquisitions coming into the AF are a decent boost.

*Apart from the 1K AAMs, there are reports of new Kh-31s being ordered - ARM versions most likely.
*100 SPICE bombs (blast versions this time)
*18 firing units of MRSAM
*10 firing units (battalions) of the S-400
*400 odd SDR
*ASRAAM integration underway
*Brahmos ditto on the Su-30 MKI
*36x Rafale
* GBMES ELINT system
* ELINT sat

Pending, on account of haggling
*7 more Akash squadrons
*83x Tejas Mk1A
*Re-engineing of the Jaguar
*8x Arudhra radar (cleared user trials)
*18x Ashwini LLTR
*2x Phalcon

Many other programs etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Aug 2019 10:11

Y. Kanan wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The Su-30MKI, Vikramaditya, MiG-29K episodes are fresh in the minds of Indian military planners.


I agree the Admiral Gorshkov\Vikramaditya saga was rediculous, and yes the Mig-29K sounds like a very unreliable aircraft, but why do you mention the SU-30MKI? Has it proven to be a disappointment as well?

See Khalsa's post below....the many joys of screwdrivergiri :)

Khalsa wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:What happened with Su30 MKI...? Did it face similar problems like MIG 29K...?

Here here, he cuts its like the Knife going through butter. Rakman.

What the good Admiral is saying is that we went in that model and got nothing of substance that we can iteratively develop ourselves.
Today, as we talk about upgrading the SU-30, those talks are with the Russians not with just DRDO & HAL.

Can you imagine the Chinese talking to Russians to upgrade their copycat flanker family?? LOL

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby naird » 02 Aug 2019 10:36

Karan M wrote:Yes!

This is quite an "old" procurement, and only the first tranche. Many more will have to be procured for whole of IAF. Nothing to do with Balakote.

2015 was when the deal was first won
https://defense-update.com/20150220_yaa ... rview.html

Feb 2019
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2019/02/1 ... aircrafts/
Rafael sets up facility for assembly (very wary of BEL etc learning their "secrets") + offsets.
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-rafa ... 1001275480
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24354 ... tions_Deal

Rakesh wrote:So basically this was DDM at its best again?



RFI for SDR was issued in Dec 2018

http://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/defa ... c%2018.pdf

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prasad » 02 Aug 2019 11:31

Yeah but Tata SED tied up with Rockwell in 2013 for this! So you can imagine how long it has taken us. And as Karan said, this is only the first tranch and even this will have some indian components.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2019 16:08

This is likely for follow on tranches. Remember SDR means Software Defined. That *should* mean SDRs of two different firms can talk to each other. Also, given the scale of requirement, won't be surprised if 2 different vendors, different sets of systems enter our menagerie.

naird wrote:
Karan M wrote:Yes!

This is quite an "old" procurement, and only the first tranche. Many more will have to be procured for whole of IAF. Nothing to do with Balakote.

2015 was when the deal was first won
https://defense-update.com/20150220_yaa ... rview.html

Feb 2019
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2019/02/1 ... aircrafts/
Rafael sets up facility for assembly (very wary of BEL etc learning their "secrets") + offsets.
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-rafa ... 1001275480
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24354 ... tions_Deal




RFI for SDR was issued in Dec 2018

http://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/defa ... c%2018.pdf

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Aug 2019 20:10

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1157238391609556992 ---> Domestic R&D spending as a percentage of GDP is well below one percent, while horrendously expensive 'flagship' programmes entirely built with foreign technology are being touted as sterling examples of modernity. And when it comes to indigenous procurement - 'Dekhonomoney'.

Allow me to expand on Saurav's tweet....

Flagship Programs ---> Global Tender for 114 MMRCA, Global Tender for Basic Trainer Aircraft

Indigenous Procurement aka 'Dekho-No-Money' ---> HTT-40, LCH, 83 Tejas Mk1A

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Y. Kanan » 03 Aug 2019 04:25

Khalsa wrote:What the good Admiral is saying is that we went in that model and got nothing of substance that we can iteratively develop ourselves.
Today, as we talk about upgrading the SU-30, those talks are with the Russians not with just DRDO & HAL.

Can you imagine the Chinese talking to Russians to upgrade their copycat flanker family?? LOL


Is it the general consensus that the IAF is unhappy with the SU-30MKI in its current form? Why is there so much urgency to upgrade this aircraft? I thought it was already about as capable as the SU-35.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 04:36

Its been 20 years since we procured the Su-30. The current Su-35 is not the Su-35 used as a basis to develop the Su-30. On the other hand we have added a lot of gear to the Su-30 as well, so its not a slouch by any means. But an upgrade would make it more relevant vs the emerging LO/VLO threats (fighters/UAVs) emerging out of China & worldwide.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 06:17

Great stuff Kartik, keep an eye out.

Kartik wrote:
Karan M wrote:Supposedly, these are brand new EA variants reported by an ITAR TASS reporter (Alexander Tomas, ITAR TASS bureau chief in Delhi) in a podcast. He said Russia recently landed its first export contract for R-27 EA, and then this order.
If anyone can find the link, that would be great.


Really do hope it is the R-27EA. I was hoping the same, after reading up on the different R-27 variants that exist. The R-27EA reportedly has 130 km range and Agat's 9B-1103K active seeker that are software programmable digital seekers.

Way back in 2000, Agat had unveiled a new class of seekers [url=https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/agat-shows-active-radar-seeker-69042/]that could be used for long range air to air missiles and featured a seeker that could acquire a 5 sqm target at upto 40 km range. Could it be that the reported Russian air to air missile that was tested off Odisha's coast against a maneuvering Banshee target was a R-27?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Aug 2019 08:17

Y. Kanan wrote:[Why is there so much urgency to upgrade this aircraft?

What urgency? We've heard of this upgrade talk for years now. Nothing's happened. I'm any case there birds are 20 years old and in a normal course of time, are due for an MLU.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 03 Aug 2019 11:59

Y. Kanan wrote:
Khalsa wrote:What the good Admiral is saying is that we went in that model and got nothing of substance that we can iteratively develop ourselves.
Today, as we talk about upgrading the SU-30, those talks are with the Russians not with just DRDO & HAL.

Can you imagine the Chinese talking to Russians to upgrade their copycat flanker family?? LOL


Is it the general consensus that the IAF is unhappy with the SU-30MKI in its current form? Why is there so much urgency to upgrade this aircraft? I thought it was already about as capable as the SU-35.


Sir
Your appreciation of the matter is spot on, we are thinking of Mid Life Upgrades while we have not finished building all our aircraft.
The MKI is a great mover, interdictor etc however the envrmnt around is changing so much that it needs to adapt well before its time.
all our enemy a/c are getting better and they are about equalise or become just better than MKIs in the next 10 years if they keep the current spectrum.

This means to win combat you will have cater for a higher attrition which is unaffordable and de-moralising
So ... bring forward the MLU

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby naird » 03 Aug 2019 12:13

Karan M wrote:This is likely for follow on tranches. Remember SDR means Software Defined. That *should* mean SDRs of two different firms can talk to each other. Also, given the scale of requirement, won't be surprised if 2 different vendors, different sets of systems enter our menagerie.


Isnt standardization the game ? Why would we want two types of SDR in IAF. Theorectically i get what you are saying , but if two different SDR's from different companies have to talk to each other then they would have to share the entire wave modulation patterns , translation mechanisms - too much work and subsequent testing.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 20:17

If Indian procurement was as logical and as decisive (order once) as you hope it were, I would be the happiest.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 03 Aug 2019 21:34

Y. Kanan wrote:
Khalsa wrote:What the good Admiral is saying is that we went in that model and got nothing of substance that we can iteratively develop ourselves.
Today, as we talk about upgrading the SU-30, those talks are with the Russians not with just DRDO & HAL.

Can you imagine the Chinese talking to Russians to upgrade their copycat flanker family?? LOL


Is it the general consensus that the IAF is unhappy with the SU-30MKI in its current form? Why is there so much urgency to upgrade this aircraft? I thought it was already about as capable as the SU-35.


The aircraft was introduced into service in the early 2000s, so it would be logical to expect a Mid Life Upgrade in the early 2020's after two decades of service. If you want a MLU at the 20-25 year mark, you have to begin planning, evaluating, and perhaps funding stuff right now (a lot of the indigenous stuff has already been funded). The fleet is so large that the upgrades will likely take half a decade to a decade to implement throughout the fleet so that too dictates the level of urgency.

If you look at the Typhoons, Raptors, Rafales et al that were also introduced into service in the 2000-2005 time-frame, all have had or are currently in the R&D stage of upgrades ranging from minor (once in 5 year) stuff to major technical overhauls as one would expect as aircraft approach their mid life..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 04 Aug 2019 04:53


Love the uniform!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2019 10:19

Khalsa wrote:
Y. Kanan wrote:
Is it the general consensus that the IAF is unhappy with the SU-30MKI in its current form? Why is there so much urgency to upgrade this aircraft? I thought it was already about as capable as the SU-35.


Sir
Your appreciation of the matter is spot on, we are thinking of Mid Life Upgrades while we have not finished building all our aircraft.
The MKI is a great mover, interdictor etc however the envrmnt around is changing so much that it needs to adapt well before its time.
all our enemy a/c are getting better and they are about equalise or become just better than MKIs in the next 10 years if they keep the current spectrum.

This means to win combat you will have cater for a higher attrition which is unaffordable and de-moralising
So ... bring forward the MLU


We are buying 18 more MKIs over the contract agreement. That doesn't sound like the IAF is unhappy with it. That said, we've been building MKIs under the same variant stipulated by Russian contract for nearly two decades. There needs to be some upgrade no matter how good it was at induction.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 04 Aug 2019 10:48

chola wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
Sir
Your appreciation of the matter is spot on, we are thinking of Mid Life Upgrades while we have not finished building all our aircraft.
The MKI is a great mover, interdictor etc however the envrmnt around is changing so much that it needs to adapt well before its time.
all our enemy a/c are getting better and they are about equalise or become just better than MKIs in the next 10 years if they keep the current spectrum.

This means to win combat you will have cater for a higher attrition which is unaffordable and de-moralising
So ... bring forward the MLU


We are buying 18 more MKIs over the contract agreement. That doesn't sound like the IAF is unhappy with it. That said, we've been building MKIs under the same variant stipulated by Russian contract for nearly two decades. There needs to be some upgrade no matter how good it was at induction.


You mean 18 over and above 270?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2019 11:14

Karthik S wrote:
chola wrote:
We are buying 18 more MKIs over the contract agreement. That doesn't sound like the IAF is unhappy with it. That said, we've been building MKIs under the same variant stipulated by Russian contract for nearly two decades. There needs to be some upgrade no matter how good it was at induction.


You mean 18 over and above 270?


Yes.

https://www.janes.com/article/89763/indian-air-force-seeking-to-acquire-18-more-su-30mki-fighters-from-russia

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is seeking to acquire an additional 18 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighter aircraft from Russia, according to Vladimir Drozhzhov, the deputy director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC).

Briefing reporters in Moscow on 8 July, Drozhzhov said that the FSMTC is "processing" a request from New Delhi to procure 18 more of these fighters for the IAF in kit form for assembly in India.

The platforms will supplement the 13 squadrons totalling 272 Su-30MKIs that the IAF intends to operate by 2020-21, thus taking to 14 the number of squadrons with this fighter type.

Drozhzhov further stated that Russia has completed delivery of all components and sub-assemblies to India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to licence-build 222 Su-30MKIs agreed upon under various previous contracts from 2000 onwards.

Currently, the IAF operates about 250 Su-30MKIs, of which more than 200 have been licence-built.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 04 Aug 2019 11:59

Still early stages, personally, wish we go in for additional Rafales. Maintaining 270 (replacing lost jets) MKIs is good enough.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Y. Kanan » 05 Aug 2019 01:09

Of course, it's understood that any aircraft is going to be receiving mid-life updates as part of its normal life cycle. That is fine, but people here are talking like we won't have a real air force until we get those Rafales. Most of the pro-Rafale posts essentially dismiss the SU-30MKI fleet as ineffective and unsuitable for a real war. This might well be true, but I'm confused. I remember back when the SU-30MKI was still viewed as an exciting new addition to the IAF. The aircraft was touted as being extremely capable. Now, 15 years later, we finally have a respectable fleet of SU-30MKI's, and we're told they're inadequate; that we need the Rafale. I'm not necessarily disputing that, but what happened to so dramatically tarnish the reputation of this aircraft? Didn't Russia's SU-30SM, SU-34 & SU-35 aircraft perform well in Syria? These are all very similar aircraft to the SU-30MKI, are they not? So why are we down on the SU-30MKI? The dislike for this aircraft can't all be based on a possible lack of upgrade ability down the road.

Is everybody down on the SU-30MKI because so many of them have crashed? Is it because of their 50% serviceability rate? Or something worse?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Aug 2019 04:09

Can you please point out who these people are?

Because it sounds to me you are setting up a strawman.

The MKI has 65%+ serviceability btw. Lousy "Print.in" reports apart.

Y. Kanan wrote:Of course, it's understood that any aircraft is going to be receiving mid-life updates as part of its normal life cycle. That is fine, but people here are talking like we won't have a real air force until we get those Rafales. Most of the pro-Rafale posts essentially dismiss the SU-30MKI fleet as ineffective and unsuitable for a real war. This might well be true, but I'm confused. I remember back when the SU-30MKI was still viewed as an exciting new addition to the IAF. The aircraft was touted as being extremely capable. Now, 15 years later, we finally have a respectable fleet of SU-30MKI's, and we're told they're inadequate; that we need the Rafale. I'm not necessarily disputing that, but what happened to so dramatically tarnish the reputation of this aircraft? Didn't Russia's SU-30SM, SU-34 & SU-35 aircraft perform well in Syria? These are all very similar aircraft to the SU-30MKI, are they not? So why are we down on the SU-30MKI? The dislike for this aircraft can't all be based on a possible lack of upgrade ability down the road.

Is everybody down on the SU-30MKI because so many of them have crashed? Is it because of their 50% serviceability rate? Or something worse?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Barath » 06 Aug 2019 18:19

Karan M wrote:This is likely for follow on tranches. Remember SDR means Software Defined. That *should* mean SDRs of two different firms can talk to each other. Also, given the scale of requirement, won't be surprised if 2 different vendors, different sets of systems enter our menagerie.


I don't get it. SDR is an architecture, not a specification. 5G uses SDR and no one is going to accuse it of automatic interoperability. Sure, SDR can have a lot of flexibility and additional features over HDR, but surely the specs still matter ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software-defined_radio

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 06 Aug 2019 18:24

When the IAF asks for new SDRs they will obviously ask for something that is interoperable with existing SDRs, at both hardware and software level plus features that may be more current than the prior one or stuff which fixes perceived flaws. The point is that SDRs have a far greater chance of being interoperable vs earlier hard coded sets, which had very limited flexibility.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Y. Kanan » 07 Aug 2019 02:47

Karan M wrote:Can you please point out who these people are?

Because it sounds to me you are setting up a strawman.

The MKI has 65%+ serviceability btw. Lousy "Print.in" reports apart.


65% isn't actually that bad. Even the USAF and USN (not that US is the gold standard for aircraft serviceability) struggle to stay above 70%. Even Rafale only achieves 75% at best (assuming Dassault's claims prove to be true, which would be surprising as such claims are always exaggerated).

So this only reinforces my confusion: what's wrong with what we've got? Why is the Rafale so desperately needed and the SU-30MKI not getting any love these days?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Roop » 07 Aug 2019 06:09

Y. Kanan wrote:Why is the ... SU-30MKI not getting any love these days?


Not getting any love from whom? You need to distinguish the opinions of fickle/finicky internet fan-boys / ChairMarshalls / Keyboard Kommandos from the opinions of the only ones that count -- IAF combat pilots and planning authorities. Has any Su-30MKI pilot in IAF dissed the plane? Has ACM Dhanoa dissed the plane?

All that we know/see in the public record of what the IAF itself thinks tells me that they have enormous confidence in the Mirage 2000 and the Sukhoi Su30 MKI. IMO internet fan-boys are best ignored.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2019 06:51

Why is M2K used instead of MKI? I have had this question as well.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 07 Aug 2019 07:00

Probably due to choice of munitions?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2019 07:05

MKI cant fire SPICE? Why no MKI as an escort with the package? Maybe IAF thought it is not needed?

If we are so enamored with French aircraft, why did we even need MKI?

Sorry for asking such simple questions. I have not seen MKI being used for anything other than claiming that it is a great aircraft, flying to many exercises, and the radar signature needs to be kept a secret!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Aug 2019 08:11

V_Raman wrote:MKI cant fire SPICE? Why no MKI as an escort with the package? Maybe IAF thought it is not needed?

If we are so enamoured with French aircraft, why did we even need MKI?

Sorry for asking such simple questions. I have not seen MKI being used for anything other than claiming that it is a great aircraft, flying to many exercises, and the radar signature needs to be kept a secret!


The outcome required decides the weapon to be used decides the aircraft of choice.[b]

The strike package and the threat perception then dictates the peripherals - i.e. escort etc. Please understand under what circumstances one would use an escorted package and then apply to the Balakot raid and you will know what the IAF did what they did.

Common man, there is enough about the history of IAF procurement etc here for you to be asking questions on why we procured what we did.

Why were MKI's flying CAP's then?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 07 Aug 2019 08:11

Perhaps you didn't see them, but the PAF sure did see (and failed badly) to take down multiple Su 30 MKIs the day after Balakot.. but then what does the IAF know other than making claims and showing off in air shows :roll:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 07 Aug 2019 08:44

My take on why M2k - They are still our best a-g plane for precision strike - has been since Maladeep, over Srilanks, Kargil and Balakot, being repetitively used for a-g (or escorts). SU30MKI is multirole (so is M2K, the next best a-g is M27(single engine, unreliable, obsolete) or Jags (too slow), but really excels as a-a fighter. To escort it, upgraded M2K were used, better ECM, perhaps better A-A weapon. SU30MKI could have escorted (and may still have, we may never know), but larger radar signature (when stealth and deception was the trick used), M2K may have been considered better choice.
Where SU30MKI may need little help is a better BVR - perhaps R771 or one of the longer range R-37. It is the one holding the forte on the western front.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2019 10:57

All these points might make technical sense. But MKI was sold as the next best thing to sliced bread! I still remember IAF chief gushing about it on induction and how it takes IAF to one of the most formidable AF in the world. Yet, it cannot even be used for a strike like Balakot?! From practical evidence - it looks like a 1:1 matchup with F16 today might take down a MKI. The reason the AMRAAMs missed was due to them being fired from too far out!! If that is correct- why do we need MKI when a LCA might be better with western radars and weapons. It looks like MKI is built for desert storm like CAP patrols done by f15s. Do we need so many aircrafts for such patrols?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Aug 2019 11:32

Dont know what to say, there are things like Bomb loads, speed of the attacker etc. The Su 30 MKI on Feb 27 was managing multiple F-16's on while being on defensive cap, on 26 Feb morning Paki F-16 didnt even interfere with M 2000 bombing, did that make the F-16's useless?

War is not a boxing match, and I hope PAF thinks like you and tries bringing thier F-16 in a 1 on 1 match up.

Think again on 27 Feb morning 24 aircraft plus AWACS with mission target of downing Su-30's and killing IA. Mission failed for PAF and 1 F-16 lost, 1 Mig 21 Bison lost yes.

We can argue that Since Ballistic missiles were not used 26 feb, they are also useless or no tanks used on LOC so we dont require tanks also.

IAF has to keep plans for requirements , from evacuating civilians in Yemen to bombing Balakot, to Bombing Karachi to taking out fighters in war time scenarios. 27 Feb had a lot of restrictions on our side, remember IAF did not fire 1 BVR AAM and fired only 1 WVR AAM- the M-2000 also did not fire at the JF-17's in Northern Kashmir, this indicates there were restrictive orders there no fire at will command given to the pilots.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 07 Aug 2019 11:41, edited 1 time in total.

ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Aug 2019 11:39

V_Raman wrote:All these points might make technical sense. But MKI was sold as the next best thing to sliced bread! I still remember IAF chief gushing about it on induction and how it takes IAF to one of the most formidable AF in the world. Yet, it cannot even be used for a strike like Balakot?! From practical evidence - it looks like a 1:1 matchup with F16 today might take down a MKI. The reason the AMRAAMs missed was due to them being fired from too far out!! If that is correct- why do we need MKI when a LCA might be better with western radars and weapons. It looks like MKI is built for desert storm like CAP patrols done by f15s. Do we need so many aircrafts for such patrols?

And it is. However the IAF wanted to use Spice because of how the Government wanted the outcome to be. Also it was a ingress and egress quickly without too much or a radar cross section (deejay please correct me here) ergo MK2.
Even the ALH is a world class machine but would you use it for everything?
The AK is fantastic weapon but would you use it for everything?
Anyway enough from me...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 07 Aug 2019 11:47

V_Raman wrote:All these points might make technical sense. But MKI was sold as the next best thing to sliced bread! I still remember IAF chief gushing about it on induction and how it takes IAF to one of the most formidable AF in the world. Yet, it cannot even be used for a strike like Balakot?! From practical evidence - it looks like a 1:1 matchup with F16 today might take down a MKI. The reason the AMRAAMs missed was due to them being fired from too far out!! If that is correct- why do we need MKI when a LCA might be better with western radars and weapons. It looks like MKI is built for desert storm like CAP patrols done by f15s. Do we need so many aircrafts for such patrols?


If IAF were to engage lots of enemy fighters or provide CAP, which plane do you think will be IAF's first choice?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VikramS » 07 Aug 2019 11:52

V_Raman wrote:All these points might make technical sense. But MKI was sold as the next best thing to sliced bread! I still remember IAF chief gushing about it on induction and how it takes IAF to one of the most formidable AF in the world. Yet, it cannot even be used for a strike like Balakot?! From practical evidence - it looks like a 1:1 matchup with F16 today might take down a MKI. The reason the AMRAAMs missed was due to them being fired from too far out!! If that is correct- why do we need MKI when a LCA might be better with western radars and weapons. It looks like MKI is built for desert storm like CAP patrols done by f15s. Do we need so many aircrafts for such patrols?


Do you remember when the first MKI joined IAF? Let me refresh your memory. It was 2002. If your child was born then, they would be entering college now.

Since then the internet revolution happened, the wireless revolution happened, GPS happened, machine learning happened, deep neural networks happened. Today a $100 device has more smart intelligence than a $20K device when the first MKI arrived.

The IAF also choses what is appropriate for missions. For the precision strike missions, M2K offer the best combo. Some of the upgraded M2K have the latest EW suites allowing them to outrange the MKIs. When the MKIs get their upgrades or they too will regain their pole position in A2A combat.

And PAF has reduced the global kill-rate of AMRAAMs used in combat. With 1 hit on a receding Mig21 out of the 5-6 they fired. Only a video-game air-marshall will equate firing a missile as winning an air-battle.


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